Say Anything Blog

Laurent agreed that athletes and other students who sign a code of conduct to be involved in activities should face consequences if they break the rule against drinking alcohol. But he said the punishments were too harsh.

“They don’t have (the) support of the students to hand out arbitrary punishments and punishments that don’t fit the crime,” he said.

Once the photos on the social networking Web site came to the attention of administrators, 42 students were interviewed and 13 face some discipline over the pictures, school officials said.

School officials haven’t said how the students were disciplined, but Minnesota State High School League penalties start with a two-game suspension for the first violation. Laurent and other students said they knew of classmates who were banned from their sports teams for five weeks.

Rob, the only penalties imposed were on Student Athletes where we suspended from team activities for games based on the investigation conducted by school officials and based on an agreed upon code of conduct that they signed before the athletic season started.

Regular students--yeah, you cannot suspend them from school.  But participating in extracurricular activities is a privilege and is governed by a code of conduct.  You are representing your school in competition.  If these kids didn’t sign and agree to the code of conduct during their time away from campus, they have no penalties imposed.

Funny, but guys like Pac-Man Jones of the Titans, Mike Vick, and Henry of the Bengals were suspended for violating the NFL Code of Conduct.  They have a code of conduct and their activities were off the football field.  You gonna argue that Mike Vick should be allowed to play football because he wasn’t dog fighting at a Falcon’s game?  Now we can get into the burden of proof required to suspend these kids or into Due Process, but there is always an appeals process to the District, the Superintendent and the School Board, but part of the appeals process is generally not an organized walk out of students during class time.

BTW, generally the code of conduct does not only cover drinking alcohol, but also attending an event where others are breaking the law.

Face it, the students were breaking the law and posted pictures on facebook.  Someone, one of the students there, dropped dimes on his friends and got their ass suspended.  And that is all it takes.  Photos and the testimony of another person at the event and that is sufficient grounds for these kids to be suspended from their sports teams.  Big difference between the burden of proof required to suspend them from school itself.

Once again, we have two posts on the same incident/subject.  Can we agree to comment on Rob’s post for the sake of continuity?

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Ok, lol...I’ll say it again. I agree with Justin on this. These students broke the rules of conduct. They are well aware of the policy and the policy has been in schools for probably 100 years.
You break the rules… tough luck, you’re out.

Justin B. - BTW, generally the code of conduct does not only cover drinking alcohol, but also attending an event where others are breaking the law.

That would preclude them from going to the drug and gang infested government schools.

Those times when I went to keg parties, usually Coca-Cola was in my red cup. I’d be pissed if people assumed that I was drinking alcohol. Where’s the presumption of innocence?

And we wonder why respect for the law is low. Not only can’t you go through life without breaking one of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of law, you are presumed guilty.

I suggest that if students want to drink and play sports, they refuse to sign the code of conduct--OR DON’T POST PICTURES OF THEM VIOLATING THE CODE OF CONDUCT ON FACEBOOK.

OR DON’T POST PICTURES OF THEM VIOLATING THE CODE OF CONDUCT ON FACEBOOK.

School pictures are out.

Those times when I went to keg parties, usually Coca-Cola was in my red cup. I’d be pissed if people assumed that I was drinking alcohol. Where’s the presumption of innocence?

I am guessing that of the 50 kids, at least some of them admitted it and others were implicated by peers that ratted them out to save their own asses.

This is not a criminal conviction and presumption of innocence only applies to criminal proceedings.  This is an adminstrative process governed by the School Board.  And there is an appeals process.  And if parents and students are upset about it, they should have elected a different school board that created different rules or they should have refused to agree to a code of conduct that has penalties for these actions.

They signed a contract that allowed them to compete in team sports, but included a provision that if they were involved in activities that violated that code of conduct, their right to play sports could be suspended.  Are you arguing that the school shouldn’t have the power to enforce their own code of conduct that both parties agreed to?  That the ACLU should sue on behalf of the students to invalidate the contract?

So it is either:

--The students were not actually drinking
--The Code of Conduct was invalid
--Due process was not followed in determining whether the students were drinking or not
--Insufficient evidence was presented of the students guilt
--The punishment is too severe
--Or it is a bigger issue that schools should not be allowed to have codes of conduct for participating in sports in the first place

Please pick or choose your argument and/or add other arguments accordingly.

BTW, Parents also sign the code of conduct with the students and also agree to abide by it.  So it generally is a valid contract.

So it is either:

The way I see it, none of those arguments fit. The kids probably deserved the sports ban, but the rational used to get that ban has major holes in it.

Let’s have a Keg party with Red cups!

I don’t agree with not signing the policy contract. Complaining about this being fair or not right is just telling the younger generation that it’s ok to belly ache or complain that their “rights” were violated. For silly sakes you guys… students (kids) need to learn life ain’t always fair so take a tough pill and buck up. You want to play sports at your school and they have a policy then by God you’re going to abide by the policy or you’re not going to play.
Parents and society need to let the students learn and if some times they have to learn the hard way, so be it.

For silly sakes you guys… students (kids) need to learn life ain’t always fair so take a tough pill and buck up.

That’s a good lesson to learn early, especially from the government who will screw you for the rest of your life.

We did this weekend for my kid’s State Championship Pop Warner Team.  Kids did not drink, but I brought a 5Gal keg of New Belguim (makers of Fat Tire) 2 Below Winter Ale.  Red Cups and all.  Bought the cups at Sams Club--240 for $9.  The Keg was $62.50 at Bevmo.  Pretty good deal.  Had it at the local park.  Funny, but adults are allowed to do that. 

I am not a high school kid playing sports, so generally, I am allowed to go to all the keg parties I want.  I did encourage several local high school girls to come to the party, but we didn’t have any Boone’s Farm so they declined.

Now I remember what high school was like.  I am glad that we didn’t have camera phones and myspace back then.  Had some of the shit I did been caught on camera, I wouldn’t ever have a possible political career.

This is something that is hugely problematic.  Use of camera phones and so on.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/pinal/articles/1130st-rape1130-ON.html

Florence High School will conduct a series of workshops to talk about the importance of good decision-making and social responsibility for students who were at a party where a student was allegedly raped.

The workshops have come in response to allegations that a high school football player raped a 16-year-old girl while his friend snapped pictures with their cell phone cameras.

The rape allegedly occurred in late October at a remote area near Florence where students often go to party and drink.

Administrators with the Florence Unified School District held a meeting for students and parents Thursday night. The group met for two hours and discussed how to discipline students who were at the party.

The workshops will be held outside of the normal school day for at least 15 students who were at the party and might have witnessed the incident. Students who do not attend the workshops will be suspended and athletes who miss the workshops could be banned from certain sports activities, said Larry Cline, a spokesman for the Florence Unified School District.

“We were dismayed that 15 or 16 people could stand by and watch that happen without taking action to prevent it,” Cline said. “We’re just beside ourselves.”

Florence police say a 17-year-old football player raped the girl after she passed out, while the football player says that the sex was consensual.

Detective Walter Hunter with the Florence Police Department said the investigation has been sent to the Pinal County Attorney’s Office, which will review the report and determine what, if any, charges are filed.

Charges could be handed down not only to the football player who allegedly committed the rape, but also to students who might have and taken pictures.

Nope, making these kids attend a workshop is unconstitutional too.  The ACLU better sue here, right?

I was head Beer leader in high school and look how well I turned out! Yea Beer!

First of all, let’s agree to separate the student athletes, engaged in voluntary, extra-curricular activities where a “code-of-conduct” requirement would be appropriate, from the rest of the students at Eden Prairie.  For the athletes, the conduct pledge was a voluntary part of being allowed to participate in sports or whatever.  They should certainly face team suspension, or other athletic consequences fro breaking their voluntary pledge.

For other, non-athletics related students, however, that code-of-conduct is not voluntary at all, since state law requires their presence at school.

Furthermore, the school and its administration are constitutionally established, and as such, are de-facto agents of the state.  Any information gathered by school officials regarding the party, could only be done if the students being questioned were advised of their rights, including the right to stay silent and the right to have counsel present during questioning.  This was not done, as schools operate under the doctrine of in loco parentis, meaning in essence that schools officials are given the authority to act as if they were parents of the students.  Obviously there is a conflict, however, with the officials’ role as agents of the state.

Finally, there is the question of how far the authority of the school extends.  Example:  most schools ban tobacco products from campus, but the school has no authority to punish a student who lights up a Marlboro across the street from the front door of the school, in plain view of all.  Similarly, in this case, the school has no authority to punish students for activities off its campus which would be violations of policy had they occurred on campus.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

For silly sakes you guys… students (kids) need to learn life ain’t always fair so take a tough pill and buck up.

likwidshoe… as in, learn to take both the ups and downs that life offers without whining and crying, no fair.

Haha! The kids were drinking soda? Hahaha! They were engaged in the latest youth-craze which has swept across the country. Called BEER PONG, it requires plastic cups usually red. Kids DO NOT drink soda out of cups… they drink it straight out of the can. Kids regard FACEBOOK and MYSPACE as their private, adult-proof domain where they can post anything ! In my view if they post it, they deal with the consequences!  Hats off to school officials for being saavy on this one.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Example:  most schools ban tobacco products from campus, but the school has no authority to punish a student who lights up a Marlboro across the street from the front door of the school, in plain view of all.  Similarly, in this case, the school has no authority to punish students for activities off its campus which would be violations of policy had they occurred on campus.

I am not so sure after the “Bong Hits 4 Jesus” case.  In that case the student was suspended from school for two weeks.  Yet the SCOTUS held that his activities off campus that posed a disruption to operation of the school during a student activity justified the suspension.

I am having a tough time not equating a zero tolerance drug law regarding marijuana with alcohol laws prohibiting student use on campus (and/or off).  This approaches some kind of grey area where one must differentiate between a 17 year old drinking alcohol or a 17 year old smoking a fatty boom batty blunt. 

I think you are wrong about school officials being able to question a student about their activities requiring them reading them their Miranda rights.  But I also believe this is a major problem that comes up often--School officials say things like “if you tell me XXX, then we might be able to reduce your suspension, etc.” and coerce students into incriminating themselves. 

But again, no formal criminal charges were brought.  These students should be thankful that they aren’t being criminally charged.

So, the school owns these children. Ain’t that special!

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I think you are wrong about school officials being able to question a student about their activities requiring them reading them their Miranda rights.  But I also believe this is a major problem that comes up often--School officials say things like “if you tell me XXX, then we might be able to reduce your suspension, etc.” and coerce students into incriminating themselves.

Justin,

I know whereof I speak because I’ve gone through it.  School officials used the in loco parentis doctrine as rationale for their interrogations, with no Miranda warnings of any kind, then turned their findings over to the police and the District Attorney for eventual prosecution.  All for an incident which, like the one above, that happened completely off school grounds.

Public schools, government schools, are established by the state constitution, paid for with taxpayers’ dollars, as are the teachers and administrators.  They are agents of the state in every sense of the word.  And there is something horribly wrong when one of those administrators can hand out birth control pills to a 13 year-old without her parents’ knowledge or consent, and force a 16 year old to confess to underage drinking, or any other violation of the law, totally away from school property at a time when school is not in session, with no recourse to counsel or advice that the student, who is forced by law to be there, has a right to keep his mouth shut.

My lawsuit is proceeding.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

And there is something horribly wrong when one of those administrators can hand out birth control pills to a 13 year-old without her parents’ knowledge or consent, and force a 16 year old to confess to underage drinking, or any other violation of the law, totally away from school property at a time when school is not in session, with no recourse to counsel or advice that the student, who is forced by law to be there, has a right to keep his mouth shut.

We 100% agree about that part.  Look, the simple fact is that as a parent, you consent to this sort of thing when you sign little junior up for the public school monstrosity.  This is at heart, my major beef with our education system in general.  And funny, but Huckabee doesn’t support school choice or school vouchers that give parents control over this sort of thing.

I am personally planning on homeschooling my kids for high school, using online courses from the local community colleges, thereby getting them college credit, having an established curriculum, getting the out of the public school monopoly, and providing a solid footing for my kids.  Beauty is that homeschooled kids can participate in athletics, attend dances, and participate in most events at the schools.  One of the wonderful thing our legislatures have done.  At least that is my plan.

But if your kids participate at all or play sports, they are subject to the rules.  But I’ll be damned if I am gonna allow my kid to be interrogated by some Nazi school principal without me being there or without a lawyer.  We need a parents bill of rights that prevents them from interrogating, but if you sign the code of conduct for athletics as these parents did, they are kinda screwed.

BTW, you know the cost of online courses at the local community college is around $200 per 3 credit class or around $1000 a semester, a fraction of the cost of a private school.  Add in books and it is close to $1500.  Put that in perspective--that is money I am going to have to spend anyway later one.  So you eliminate 4 years of shit and as long as your kids will do the work, you can better prepare them for college.  Plus they can still play sports.

Why is the NEA so afraid again?  Oh, that is right.  Because they are a fucking monopoly of Nazis and parents expect their kids to learn, not be “indoctrinated” and brain washed.

Haha! The kids were drinking soda? Hahaha! They were engaged in the latest youth-craze which has swept across the country. Called BEER PONG, it requires plastic cups usually red. Kids DO NOT drink soda out of cups… they drink it straight out of the can. Kids regard FACEBOOK and MYSPACE as their private, adult-proof domain where they can post anything ! In my view if they post it, they deal with the consequences!  Hats off to school officials for being saavy on this one.

Plastic cups come in whatever color they come in. The Catholic Newman center at UMSL sometimes uses red cups at their events (and we’re not playing beer pong). The color of cups, or PRESENCE of cups is not enough to prove anything.

The ruling is assinine. Pure and simple.

likwidshoe… as in, learn to take both the ups and downs that life offers without whining and crying, no fair.

The fact that life isn’t fair doesn’t mean one can’t take remedies when they are unjustly accused. There’s not a single person on this board who would accept being fired because they’d been seen drinking out of a red plastic cup. And this “life isn’t fair” kick is pure tripe.

But if your kids participate at all or play sports, they are subject to the rules.  But I’ll be damned if I am gonna allow my kid to be interrogated by some Nazi school principal without me being there or without a lawyer.  We need a parents bill of rights that prevents them from interrogating, but if you sign the code of conduct for athletics as these parents did, they are kinda screwed.

Justin, what complete nonsense. On one hand you argue against the action (if it was your kids), but argue against those involved. Pick a stand. If you sign a paper that says you can’t drink liquor, then the other signatory (the school) must PROVE you drank liquor. “I say him drinking out of a plastic cup” isn’t good enough. EVERY event I attended in high school included plastic cups.

The school can’t probe it...they have no case...they MUST let the kids back on.

My argument is this--

The parents signed a code of conduct that clearly allows the school to suspend the kids from athletic activities.  I have no problem with that because it was a voluntary agreement between the three parties--the parents, the student, and the school.

The second part is the burden of proof.  In this case, I believe that the school has met the burden of proof necessary to suspend the kids from athletic activities, a burden that is far lower than that necessary for any kind of criminal conviction.  The students posted incriminating photos and it is assumed that at least one of them caved and admitted that kids were drinking.  I also assume that most if not all of the kids admitted as such when confronted with a “we will suspend you the whole year” threat in a good cop bad cop situation with the coaches and administrators present.  Perhaps even some parents encouraged their kids to fess up to what they were doing.  At that point, the suspensions are more than justified.

But the bigger picture goes beyond just this one incident.  We have empowered our schools to not only maintain discipline in the classroom and in extracurriculars, but have given them both interrogating authority and judicial authority.  In essence, a principal is the cop, da, and judge all rolled into one.  The can pressure confessions and often times this is done without informing the student of possible punishments and even more likely without the presence of a parent.  Now, with the overzealous prosecution by criminal authorities, confessions given to school administrators are given directly to cops and the school administrator is essentially a government representative that can coerce confessions out of kids that cops obviously cannot.  That is what I have a problem with.

So it puts us in a quandry.  Do I teach my kids not to lie and to take responsibility for their actions?  Do I teach them to respect authority and work honestly with their principal and teachers?  Or do I rightly teach them to view principals and cops with a level of distrust and refuse to communicate with them unless I am there to ensure my kids are adequately prepared to give testimony?As I said, a parents bill of rights that states that no questioning can be conducted without a parent present when any offense could have criminal or legal ramifications.

It is a troubling area for parents that leaves many of us hating the NEA and hating public schools in general because they subject us to government intrusion that would not otherwise be tolerated.

Does that make sense?

I guess the other argument that you could make isn’t whether the kids agreed to the code of conduct or whether the burden of proof was met, but whether these suspensions from athletics were fitting with the crime.

I am mixed on that.  It appears that this was one singular offense and the standard suspension is two games.  The administrators stretched that to one offense for each drink or picture or some such nonsense and this was probably a tactic used to coerce a confession or threaten other students.  I do take issue with that.