Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Wednesday, June 21, 2006

When More Is Not Enough!

As you probably know it is projected that North Dakota is expected to have a budget surplus of up to three-hundred million dollars. This money belongs to the taxpayers. You might also know that there is an huge effort by state's Democrats, the state newspapers and the public-employee unions to spend that money rather than return it to the taxpayers.

The left is employing the typical strategy of deception to make it look like North Dakotan's are somehow shorting the public services in the state. Sadly (for them) that facts don't support that.
The latest effort in this war for our money was recently in a letter the Forum ran.

In the Republican-controlled Legislature, education funding has been under attack for two decades. In the early 1980s, the Legislature committed to providing 70 percent of school funding from the state level. As Republicans have steadily gained power, that figure has steadily declined, leaving local communities and homeowners to foot the bill with higher and higher property taxes.


The facts, of course are completely different. I found a great spreadsheet from the North Dakota Department of Public Instruction.

In 1985 state support per student was $1,755. Adjusting this figure to 2005 dollars it would amount to $3,107. Rather than merely keeping up with inflation the state spent $3,419, a real ten percent increase in state support of education since 1985. That alone demolishes the letter writer's claim that the Republican controlled legislature "attacked" education spending.

During the same time federal support of North Dakota schools went from $410 to $1,186. (all in 2005 dollars). The problem is that certain local school boards have sent spending from (also in 2005 dollars) $5,686 to $8,466. That's an outrageous increase of 48.5%!

Over these 20 years, spending per student (in 2005 dollars) has gone up $2,760. The state ($313) and the federal government ($766) have contributed $1,089 to this increase. The rest of the money ($1,671) has been put on the backs of local property taxes. Frankly the local school boards have authorized this spending so they should have the plan to come up with the money. If the fine citizens of Fargo want to build brand new schools they should be able to do so. However it's up to them to pay for it, not the citizens of the rest of the state. The problem as I see it is that the local school boards have jacked up property taxes so high that they are finally taking some heat. Rather than taking responsibility for their actions they are blaming others for their mismanagement.

The liberals in the state seem to be making a big to-do about a so-called commitment for the state to fund 70% of the education expense in the state. The Democrat candidate for Tax Commissioner is promising to use the office's recently discovered power to legislate to do just this.

I don't know the history of this "commitment." However the legislature in 1981 or 1983 or 1985 cannot bind the 2005 legislature. If that were the case every issue would be off the table to new legislatures. Suppose the state legislature in 1905 had banned motor cars because they upset the horses?

Frankly that kind of commitment would be unworkable anyway because it would be giving local school boards the power to dictate to the state legislature. Fargo voters could decide that by taxing the locals $300 they could have $1000 to spend. The Grand Forks school board would one-up Fargo by taxing the locals $600 to spend $2000. The state legislature would either have to come up with the money or more likely restrict the local school boards from setting their own budget. Brenarlo posted a while back on why this is a bad idea. The short story is that if the fine people of Minto want a new school they should be able to build it if they are willing to pay for it.

The writer of the letter gets to what this fight is really about: the public employee unions believe that more and more money should come out of our wallets and go to their wallets.

North Dakota’s educators certainly deserve to be paid like the professionals they are.


The market sets the amount of pay that any job should receive. Schools in North Dakota are above average in teacher retention and recruiting. Teachers rarely leave the teaching profession to take jobs in private industry. When it does happen I believe it's generally because the teachers are not cut out for the job.

The Tax Surplus must be returned to the taxpayers in a rebate. Since teachers and other public employees are also taxpayers they will receive their share of the surplus. I think they should be ashamed by the greed of their union leaders in wanting to keep it for themselves.

Cross Posted from Taking Back North Dakota!

Comments

Avatar for gilbyguy

Right On Whister!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You hit it all.  The fallacy of state funding of 70% is something that few people can explain.  But the worst is (as you explained) it is impossible for a legislature to hit a moving target.  If School District X is spending $100 dollars per student in 2006 the legislature would meet and say, “We will fund that student at $70 (70%) so if the school district, if they want more money (they all do) would just spend $120 per student in 2007.  RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Whistler for hitting the nail on the head.

gilbyguy on June 21, 2006 at 07:33 pm
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Fantastic post, Whistler.

From where I’m sitting, I think the “education is underfunded” thing is just a means to an end.  The state Democrats want to keep this surplus in the government, and “it’s for the children” is the best they can come up with to make people sympathetic to the idea of not getting their money back.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 21, 2006 at 07:40 pm
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

As far as teacher recruiting goes, I can’t speak for other parts of the state but here in Minot there’s a waiting list to get in.  There’s a lot of competition.

With so many people applying, why on earth would we raise the compensation levels?  Clearly the pay is attractive enough to be luring in plenty of applicants.

Rural schools are having a tougher time, but that has more to do, I think, with teachers not wanting to live in middle-of-nowhere North Dakota than pay.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 21, 2006 at 07:47 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

Thanks Gilby.  That coming from someone in the know is great to hear.

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 03:34 am
Avatar for puzzlefeet

so the “free market sets the market for wages, so how about checking out how far behind the market wages are for teachers and state employees.  They are not paid at market.

puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 05:04 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

No, they’re paid way above market.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 05:09 am
Avatar for puzzlefeet

Prove it Rob. Because I’ll provide you with the data that state employees are severly behind the market.

puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 05:49 am
Avatar for student student

my mom is a state employee (for the university), and she just got a raise. Needless to say, she has not gotten a raise since at least 2001 or so. She had been complaining because her salary seemed to be diminishing- it was not keeping up with inflation at all. Even when homeland security money went to the lab, there was no raise. Instead, President Adams got the money and spent it on more extravagant living.

student student on June 22, 2006 at 05:52 am
Avatar for student student

here is an example of just what is going on in my area.

student student on June 22, 2006 at 06:01 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Data conveniently put together by the teacher’s unions?

No thank you.

But since you asked, here’s a post where I point out that the average teacher makes $5,000 more than the average North Dakotan.  That doesn’t even take into account the fantastic benefits teachers enjoy.  Most North Dakotans working in the private sector don’t get benefits like what teachers get.

And, given how difficult it is to get a teaching job here in the state thanks to all the applicants, clearly the teachers themselves don’t have a problem with the compensation levels.

If we ever have a shortage of qualified teachers we can talk about raising wages, but as of right now I don’t see where the teachers need a raise in pay anytime in the forseeable future.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 06:02 am
Avatar for student student

my mom gets what is considered to be a teacher’s wage here. Actually, my mom used to teach, but not in the states.

student student on June 22, 2006 at 06:05 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Student:  That’s a good example of administration claiming that they need more money for the teachers, but when they get it they glom onto it for themselves.  Bait and Switch.

While some administration is of course needed; teachers and in-class help are the productive workers in the system.

I must point out that while your comments are helpful and most welcome, my post was North Dakota specific.

Puzzle:  Just because some other state decides to overpay their teachers for political rather than economic reasons; it’s no excuse for our politicians to act irresponsibly.  Besides contrary to the Democrat politician claims, not everyone can be paid above average.

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 06:18 am
Avatar for The Whistler

By the way, Rob’s post that he linked to on teacher pay is very worthwhile reading.

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 06:21 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Whistler: That’s how teacher unions operate.  They go to union friendly “blue state” areas and get politicians to jack up the wages for teachers ("It’s for the children!"), then come back to states like ND and say “What we pay our teachers is atrocious, look how far we are behind Oregon!”


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 06:23 am
Avatar for student student

heh, I wouldn’t know the teacher pay in your state, nor would I know the exact amount. Are the presidents there hoarding any of the money? I wonder how that all works over there…

/me goes back to cleaning room.

student student on June 22, 2006 at 07:18 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Rob, here is the link to the state employee compensation report:  http://www.nd.gov/hrms/hr/secc060506.pdf

This report wasn’t developed by the public employees union.

Again, Whistler, prove that the teachers in ND are overpaid.  Prove it.  Don’t just make political statements.  If this is market driven as you all talk about prove to me that these teachers are at the market. 

I provided to you evidence that public employees are not paid at market in ND. so prove it.

Puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 07:35 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Proof comes from the fact that jobs fill faster in the public sector rather than the private sector.

Proof comes in that there are waiting lists for teaching jobs in the state.

Paying more than the market is stupid.

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 07:37 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Puzzle, did you not see where I linked to proof that the average teacher salary is about $5,000 more than the what the average ND makes?

And that was probably the crappiest source link I’ve ever found.  Seriously, a powerpoint slideshow?  Give me a break.

I’ll still make two points regarding it, though:

1) I notice that the slideshow only talked about slary, not benefits.  State workers get much better benefits than private sector employees.  That’s one reason why so many people want to for the state.

2) The state has no problem filling all of its jobs.  Why then should we pay more?  Clearly, the compensation is adequate to attract enough qualified applicants.

Also, weren’t you the head of the ND Public Employee’s union?  Yeah, you’re objective…


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 07:42 am
Avatar for The Whistler

I don’t know if anyone’s ever been involved in a government pay survey.  If you have you’d know that the people taking the survey are working to justify higher pay for government employees.

The public employee unions are taking from poor and giving to the rich public employss.  Robinhood took care of that racket.

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 07:51 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Rob, let’s compare apples to apples.  Does the average North Dakotan have the education level the teacher is required to have in order to teach that average North Dakotan’s child? 

Once again, Whistler, prove the survey is wrong, not just trotting out the typical meme you always trot out.

Puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 07:55 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Rob, there is a slide on the comparison to the health benefits as well.

Puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 07:59 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Ok, apples to apples.

Why do private school teachers make less than public school teachers while providing a better education?  Test scores from private schools are higher than those from public schools, and private schools pay their teachers less.

Also, if teacher pay in ND is so abysmal...why the waiting list to get a teaching job?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 08:07 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Ooooh, great.  A slide.

How about you actually tell us why public school teachers aren’t making enough rather than foisting it all of on some dumb slide show?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 08:09 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Rob, slide 15 in that so-called “crappy” link shows you exactly where the data came from.  I provided you with objective information from an objective source.  And yes, as a matter of fact I was the head, so what?  It was my job to know the facts and to research the facts and you bet to advocate on behalf of my members. Loved it and will continue to do it.  They are taxpayers too and deserve to paid at market, which you are so fond of except when it comes to someone who does public service.

Puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 08:13 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

They are paid above market.  Private school teachers make less than public school teachers.

I love the way you avoid all our points and keep shooting out your talking points.  You don’t represent the interests of taxpayers or their children, you represent getting as much money for teachers as possible.  Period.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 08:20 am
Avatar for robert108

The whole purpose of socialism/unionism is to fix the price of labor at above market price, by keeping the supply of labor below that demanded in the market.  Part of the reason private school teachers make less is because the public school teachers have unfair leverage and feed directly from the public trough.  All parents of private school students also have to pay, through taxes, the costs of public school, in addition to what they pay for their children’s private schools.  On a level playing field, the private school teachers would be paid more, because they give greater value.

robert108 on June 22, 2006 at 08:24 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Rob, private school teachers are behind the market as well.  Rob, show me the market data on teacher pay, please.

Big difference between private and public schools, is private schools can decide who attends, they don’t have to take children with special needs, and most don’t provide special education services.

Puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 08:25 am
Avatar for robert108

Yes, they just do the job of providing a superior education to their students.  How about all the regular students getting a superior education at private schools, and all the special needs students going to public schools for the education they provide.  That might be a valid use for public funding.  Providing a mediocre education to the general public is not a good use for public funding.

robert108 on June 22, 2006 at 08:32 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Puzzle, the only possible way I can show you market numbers for teacher pay is by indicating to you what private school teachers make.  Those are the only K-12 educators openly competing in a free market.  Public school teachers aren’t in a market as their wages are set by government.

We are paying, on national average, $250,000 per classroom of students (including teacher pay) yet our kids can’t compete with students from other countries.

Watch this show from John Stossel.

The problem with our education system is not that teachers aren’t paid enough, but that teachers aren’t held accountable the way people working in a free market are.  You are one of the people to blame for that.  All you’re about is getting teacher pay as high as possible while ensuring that teachers have to do as little work as possible.

It’s pathetic.  You are doing our state and our country a grave disservice.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 08:34 am
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

Rob, private school teachers are behind the market as well. Rob, show me the market data on teacher pay, please.

If public and private school teachers have “low” pay, who are you comparing them too?  How can you say that both groups are behind the market if they are the market?

Big difference between private and public schools, is private schools can decide who attends, they don’t have to take children with special needs, and most don’t provide special education services.

Um… there are private schools that are exclusively dedicated to “special needs"… are you taking this into account?  The private market will fill any niche.  Nice attempt to set up a straw-man, though.

Seth Yantiss on June 22, 2006 at 08:38 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Not in ND Seth and not nearly close to the public schools and their responsibility to educate all children. Private schools have no such legal responsibility.

Puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 08:45 am
Avatar for robert108

That is exactly right.  Private school is by choice, not a mandate.

robert108 on June 22, 2006 at 08:50 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Puzzle, what is astonishing to me is how little you know of free market capitalism.

The “market price” for a good or service is set by how much a person is willing to pay for it and how much the seller is willing to accept.

Take the situation here in Minot.  I think we’ve got a good school system here.  I went through it myself, and I’m getting ready to send my daughter there this fall.  Here in Minot there is a waiting list to get teaching jobs.  There are so many people applying for these jobs that the school cannot accept them all.

What does this tell us?  That the school is paying teacher wages above market price.  It means that the school could lower wages significantly and still attract enough qualified applicants to fill open positions.

Think of it this way: If I sell lemonade and I charge way below market price for a glass I’m going to have a stampede of customers and I’ll likely sell out in five minutes.  If I charge a little higher than that, though, I probably won’t sell out as quickly but I’ll be more profitable in the long run.

See how this all works?  That’s how we should decide how teachers are paid, not through the arbitrary process you favor.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 08:51 am
Avatar for robert108

Seth Y: Public schools, being taxpayer subsidized and unionized, distort the market, so a real assessment of what market pay would be for teachers in a free market is impossible to determine.

robert108 on June 22, 2006 at 08:51 am
Avatar for Chief RZ

1.  Teachers make a very good salary, all add-ons included, including medical and retirement.
2.  Teacher’s Unions are only interested in one thing-- themselves, not their students.
3.  Alternative choices would strengthen and enhance our overall education in America
4.  This “special education” thing is a recent union/lawyer thing.  If anyone wants to hear The Truth, reply, or visit my site.
Now.  I am not going to play a ‘cindy’ and will answer questions honestly without playing the ‘morally superior’ card.  I will tell you the truth and will ask you a question back honestly, and expect an honest answer, not a smear or diversion.
—one who knows—

Chief RZ on June 22, 2006 at 09:17 am
Avatar for J.R.

Puzzle,

Does that powerpoint adjust for cost of living in the different states representing the market?  I couldn’t see any reference and I imagine that has something to do with teacher salary.

Also, do you agree with Rob and Whistler’s assessment that there is a waiting list for teacher’s jobs in ND?  If so, you are not looking for a fair wage based on market value, you are just looking for more money.  There’s nothing wrong with it, but a waiting list sure does shoot holes in your argument about below market wages.

J.R. on June 22, 2006 at 09:33 am
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

Seth Y: Public schools, being taxpayer subsidized and unionized, distort the market, so a real assessment of what market pay would be for teachers in a free market is impossible to determine.

Robert, well, yeah… Puzzle is trying to say that both groups, representing the whole, are underpaid… How can you determine that any group is underpaid based on comparisons to that same group? 

Group A and group B are the only members of the whole profession… how can Puzzle make the claim that either group is underpaid when compared to themselves… It’s like saying that the American beetle and African beetle are endangered because both populations are low… low compared to what?  Termites?  Ants?  Whooping Cranes?

Seth Yantiss on June 22, 2006 at 09:43 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Spending on education per student has increased 50% in 20 years.  I am willing to state my opinion that the education today is no better than the education I received.

So why would we believe that spending MORE is going to help the system?

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 10:09 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

Whistler, according to Stossel’s numbers from the Dept. of Education we are spending a national average of $10,000 per student, or about a quarter of a million dollars per classroom per year.

If that’s not enough money to get kids a decent high school education we’re in serious trouble.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on June 22, 2006 at 11:53 am
Avatar for The Whistler

From my research, North Dakota is only 15% off of the national average.

I would state the North Dakota kids are much better behaved than big city kids.  Taking that into consideration wouldn’t we expect good teachers to want to stay here and teach?

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 12:31 pm
Avatar for student student

the mentality of the state is “if we don’t spend it, we lose it”, thus they spend as much as they can. sadly, that is the way things are.

student student on June 22, 2006 at 01:19 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

the mentality of the state is “if we don’t spend it, we lose it”, thus they spend as much as they can. sadly, that is the way things are.

That’s the mentality of all large organizations, unless the reward people for saving money.  That can go to far of course because important things may not get done.

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 01:28 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

It always amazes me how every politician thinks that a temporary tax surplus is a great reason to greatly increase programs or whatever.  I can see paying off bonds (if there are any), tax cuts and rebates, or even building essential infrastructure “to last” instead of “to get by.” A surplus should be used to reduce the weight of taxation in a state, right?

I don’t get the logic of increasing the long term obligations (e.g. pay structure of teachers) with this money.  People endorsing this are akin to people who get a $5000 bonus from work and proceed to sign a lease on a $50,000 new car, forgetting that their bonuses may or may not come the next year.

Robert Perry on June 22, 2006 at 02:08 pm
Avatar for robert108

Budget surplus=overtaxation.  Period.
Budget deficit=overspending.  Period.
Balanced budget=fiscal responsibility

Idiot’s guide to govt.

robert108 on June 22, 2006 at 02:38 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

RP:  Great points.  I for one am not advocating reducing state taxes by a huge amount.  North Dakota’s economy grows in fits and starts.

Spending this money will lead to shortfalls in a year or two when the state employees need their COLA raise.

Furthermorer the surplus is nearly as large as spending on k-12 education.  I’m sure the teachers unions are planning on taking all of this money.

The Whistler on June 22, 2006 at 02:43 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

JR the link I provided was for state employees only.  The entire study was done by the Central States Compensation organization that does the indepth study.  I wish NDHRMS would post the entire study but it is pretty lengthy.  The slide presentation was done for the State Employees compensation commission meeting that was held on June 5.  If you want to see more of the state system check out http://www.discovernd.com and go to government/state/agencies/Human resource management services.  The state study as required by the ND legislature included the 10 state compensation report as well as the local ND markets as well.  It should also be noted that the state employees did not get pay raises from 2003 - 2005 due to the budget shortfall.

Puzzlefeet on June 22, 2006 at 04:45 pm
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses.