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Monday, April 30, 2007

When Internet Debate Gets Ugly And Bloggers Get Threatened

As most regular readers of Say Anything know I’ve managed to stir up no small amount of controversy in my home state over a column I wrote in the Dakota Beacon magazine (and also published on this site).  The column was about the abhorrent conditions on one of North Dakota’s Indian reservations, and several months later it got noticed on the reservation and distrubted as photocopies all over the place.  Not unsurprisingly it made a lot of people on those reservations (many of them government workers actually involved with the areas I described) angry.  Very angry.

My original post of the column from December of 2006 is here, my follow-up post on the controversy it subsequently created months later is here.  There are about 700 or so comments on those two threads, so if you want to catch up you can.

Some of the comments have been positive, some have been critical and some have been downright mean.  But that’s par for the course when it comes to internet debate.  It isn’t always civil.  It’s rarely civil, in fact, but rarely is it more than passionate people sniping at each other in a mostly anonymous forum.

Unfortunately, my column about the Indian reservations has caused some to cross the line from snarky internet banter to threats.  As an example, here’s Andy L. commenting on one of the threads linked above:

Rob, you spineless wonder.  You come on our reservation, make all kinds of inaccurate observations, publish those observations in a conservative republican rag that’s peddled all over the state, and you can’t figure out why we’re all hopping mad?

You should be ashamed of yourself.  You’re not doing anybody any favors, especially your right wing bigot friends.  We are not going to stop commenting on this issue.  Our next step is to formally approach the tribe and have the tribe formally approach your governor for an apology.

Do you realize what you have done?  There are 30 thousand enrolled at Turtle Mountains.  We have members in every city in North Dakota.  We communicate with each other as one.  This will not die down.  You aren’t taking on a bunch of dimwits.  Watch your back.  We’re everywhere!

So now, because of an opinion expressed on a political blog and in a political magazine, I must “watch my back.” I have to start to wonder if I need to be concerned about myself and my family.

That’s pathetic.

My point in this is to remind people of this: While we all communicate in this forum we call the internet relatively anonymously and with strangers, we need to remember that we’re all just people.  Concerned, passionate and (most of the time) caring people.  We have opinions, and we can be mean and arrogant, but at the end of the day it’s about communicating.  Not threats and intimidation.

I love writing about politics for all of you, and I love having this blog and the sizable audience that goes with it.  It’s a rare opportunity to have such access and influence, and I appreciate it for what it is.  But tonight, after being threatened for doing no more than expressing an opinion, I have for the first time started to feel like maybe this isn’t worth it.  Maybe it’s not worth it to call down all this heat on myself just for speaking out.

I’m not thinking about stopping blogging, but tonight I’m feeling a little demoralized.  Like maybe this isn’t as much fun as it once was.

Comments

Andy L AKA Andrew Laverdure has also stated, “Hope you enjoy the lessons that are coming your way.”

Maybe the police should be alerted. Andy is crossing into that line.

likwidshoe on April 30, 2007 at 10:38 pm

Btw, you do have to laugh at Andy. He’s so incensed over what Rob has wrote that he wants the Governor of the state to apologize! Talk about ridiculous.

likwidshoe on April 30, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Avatar for Xene

Rob and lik,
Rob your article implicates that your a victim. Lik , Rob described a community with utter vulgarity. He has publicly insulted tribes in North Dakota. What is worst he defends himself by implying that the same people he has vulgarized are threatening him. Is his behavior (Rob) absolute without consequence? No, not when it comes to Indian Country. We have never been a people to step aside. Most of all we have always stood up to defend those of our people who are unable to. Rob will never be harmed he needs to face the music. And yes much more is on the way.

Xene on May 1, 2007 at 12:41 am

Rob your article implicates that your a victim. ...What is worst he defends himself by implying that the same people he has vulgarized are threatening him. Is his behavior (Rob) absolute without consequence? .... yes much more is on the way.
Xene on May 1, 2007 at 01:41 am

What a fucking illiterate moron....no doubt a graduate of one of those fine ("we are succeeding") reservation schools!!


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on May 1, 2007 at 12:58 am

Xene said, Lik , Rob described a community with utter vulgarity. He has publicly insulted tribes in North Dakota.

All he did was tell the truth.

What is worst he defends himself by implying that the same people he has vulgarized are threatening him.

What? Are you attempting to excuse Andy’s threats?

Rob will never be harmed he needs to face the music. And yes much more is on the way.

What’s that supposed to mean?

likwidshoe on May 1, 2007 at 01:18 am

The best defense is an aggressive, active offense. I believe BIA would be interested in who is using its computers and Internet connection for blog browsing. Is it part of andy’s job description to noodle about the blogsphere being an ass?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 1, 2007 at 04:33 am

Sort of like this article in yesterday’s Washington Post:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901555.html

Yes, blogging has become very uncivilized but threats like “Watch your back” don’t belong here or on any blog for that matter.  If you can’t argue without the threats because you’re “hopping mad”, then hop onto another blog.

Puzzlefeet on May 1, 2007 at 04:37 am

I got your back, Rob… well, from 2000 miles away… wink


I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Sphagnum on May 1, 2007 at 05:09 am

Once again, the thin veneer of civility is stripped away from yet another leftie minority, revealing the truth of its Stalinist reality.  Lefties regularly recruit minorities with taxpayer money, then demand absolute loyalty and lockstep adherence to their ideology.  Native Americans, you’ve been bought!


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 1, 2007 at 06:51 am
Avatar for skh.pcola

Another example of a member of an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor.  Native Americans are no more oppressed than black Americans are, they just have their own “ghettos” to skulk about in.  Screw them.

skh.pcola on May 1, 2007 at 07:38 am
Avatar for Ronald Walter

A BIA official in Minnesota ca. 1854 said about the local Sioux population who were existing on minimum sustenance, “Let them eat dung.”

The local natives weren’t happy about his sentiments and in 1854 attacked the town of New Ulm.  They were so incensed at the complete lack of sensitivity, they burned the town.

Schell’s brewery, established in 1846, was supplying booze to the local natives.  August Schell had a favorable rapport with the local native population.

His brewery still stands.  It was spared from the wrath of the warriors who reeked havoc on the German settlers.  They liked August Schell.  He treated them fairly.  He gave them some hope, not just a libation to imbibe.

Can you blame indigenous peoples for airing their grievances and becoming somewhat indignant?

“What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?”

Ronald Walter on May 1, 2007 at 07:46 am
Avatar for Ronald Walter

Um… skh, you deserve a sound, hard punch in the snoot.

Ronald Walter on May 1, 2007 at 07:49 am

you deserve a sound, hard punch in the snoot.


And what do you deserve,Cut and Paste Cut and Run Ronald, you lying crapweasel?


A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 1, 2007 at 08:01 am

Rob

You quit - They win

Mickey on May 1, 2007 at 09:25 am
Rob
Rob
17408 comments
Send a private message

I’m not quitting.  Just feeling like this isn’t as fun as it once was.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on May 1, 2007 at 09:39 am
Avatar for Robert Perry

Regarding Mr. Walter’s post, it’s not exactly factual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_New_Ulm

Never mind that liquor is not exactly one of the big blessings on most reservations. 

Hang in there, Rob.  As I’ve noted before, when people resort to tactics like this, they are generally proving your point for you.  Remember also that when the saber is being rattled, it is in its sheath.

Robert Perry on May 1, 2007 at 11:03 am

As much as it irks me I must agree with RonWa’s second point. skh in Pensacola does need thumped. His racism is just as reprehensible as andy L and his crowd’s is.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 1, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Also, Schell’s brewery was founded in 1860, not 1846.  New Ulm was only founded in 1854. 

http://www.schellsbrewery.com/

Robert Perry on May 1, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Avatar for Chris Brownell

In my opinion you need to file a complaint against this pathetic dolt, and do so today. POST HASTE!

Every time you get something like this you should file a complaint against the person. You should treat people like this, as though they are little children. If you color on the wall with your crayon you will get a time out. Eventually they will be dissuaded from threatening people when ever they feel slighted by disagreement.

I don’t believe it is legal to communicate a threat in any media, (letter, telephone, verbal, or on the internet) and if I were you I could take a copy of the complaint form and make a few dozen photo copies, just to make it easier. The police are probably not the only agency that would handle a complaint like this, and you might want to look into some state agencies that could help with people doing this sort of stuff.

With the number of readers you have, I am sure you will not only run into this guy with a proclivity towards violence. As a matter of fact liberals have been well documented at destroying property and causing injury to people who they disagree with intellectually. Shocking I know, but none the less true. Who knows perhaps this being NORTH DAKOTA’S MOST POPULAR POLICITICAL WEB LOG; you may even get a dead fish in the mail from Rham Emmanuel.

C.

Chris Brownell on May 1, 2007 at 12:53 pm

RP, thanks for the link! Always like to see small breweries succeeding. I’m gonna order some of their dark, and one of their seasonal ales sounds like it may be close to Bass. Always looking for something to match Bass, it is hard to find non-skunked this far inland nowadays.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 1, 2007 at 12:59 pm

I’m not quitting.  Just feeling like this isn’t as fun as it once was.

Hang in there, Rob.  Telling it how one sees it is never uniformly popular and often resented.  I speak from experience.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 1, 2007 at 01:40 pm

Can you blame indigenous peoples for airing their grievances and becoming somewhat indignant?

Of course you can.  Actions have consequences.  They burned a town down to the ground, according to your fable.  They should have been (or hopefully were) round up and shot.  Is that really difficult to understand?

What kind of moron would burn a town down because someone said “let them eat dung” anyway…


I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Sphagnum on May 1, 2007 at 03:14 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

2H9; you’re welcome.  My point, though, was to further discredit the fable told.

And do insults lead to war?  Sometimes, certainly.  However, in this case, whatever the immediate cause of the attacks on New Ulm might have been was accompanied by a history of other events.  It certainly wasn’t just “let them eat dung.” Hunger, lack of hunting, history of war, yes.  A single insult?  No way.

Robert Perry on May 1, 2007 at 03:27 pm

Regarding Mr. Walter’s post, it’s not exactly factual:

That’s an understatement! Cut and Paste Cut and Run Ronald has problems sorting truth from fiction. In fact, he has quite a history of it. We document his idiocy on a daily basis and he keeps coming back, like a bizarro Energizer bunny, pooping out little tidbits he’s copied from other sites, without regard as to whether any of it is in the least bit accurate !



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 1, 2007 at 03:53 pm

Spaghetti, I am just venturing a guess, but probably starving people. The burning down most certainly followed the looting for food and ammunition. At least that is how I would run the op.

I know, RP. RonWa actually did what most people do, compress historical timelines to fit his purposes.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 1, 2007 at 03:57 pm

Another example of a member of an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor.  Native Americans are no more oppressed than black Americans are, they just have their own “ghettos” to skulk about in.  Screw them.
skh.pcola on May 1, 2007 at 08:38 am

As much as it irks me I must agree with RonWa’s second point. skh in Pensacola does need thumped. His racism is just as reprehensible as andy L and his crowd’s is.
2Hotel9 on May 1, 2007 at 01:27 pm

Sorry 2, There’s nothing racist about that comment...it’s right on point!

“Forty acres and a mule” .....Reparations for slavery is a movement in the United States, which suggests that the government apologize to slave descendants for their hardships, and bestow on them reparations, whether it be in the form of money, land, or other goods.

The only thing that would give the idea of reparations for slavery even the appearance of rationality is an assumption of collective guilt, passed down from generation to generation. But, if we start operating on the principle that people alive today are responsible for what their ancestors did in centuries past, we will be adopting a principle that can tear any society apart, especially a multi-ethnic society like the United States.

Even if we were willing to go down that dangerous road, the facts of history do not square with the demand for reparations. Millions of immigrants arrived in this country from Europe, Asia and Latin America after slavery was over. Are their descendants guilty too and expected to pay out hard cash to redeem themselves?

Even during the era of slavery, most white people owned no slaves. Are their descendants supposed to pay for the descendants of those who did?

Just ask the residents of western New York towns like Chittenango, Seneca Falls, and Springport, where as many as 90,000 upstate landowners, joining many others in Connecticut and other states, have seen the titles to their properties clouded by the revival of Indian land claims once thought extinguished in the earliest years of the republic.

Yet though these landowners have compelling stories to tell—they include, for example, farmers unable to clear title to land that has been in their family for two centuries—few of our elite legal institutions seem much interested in their plight.

The Indian land-claims debacle offers a sobering preview of the havoc that slave-reparations claims might soon visit on American society as a whole.


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on May 2, 2007 at 01:57 am

And while we’re at it, we might as well give Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington back to the Paiute, Shoshoni, Hopi, Pima, Yaqui, Tepehuan, Rarámuri (Tarahumara), Kiowas and Mayas.

The myth of Aztlan can best be explained by California’s Santa Barbara School District’s Chicano Studies textbook, “The Mexican American Heritage” by East Los Angeles high school teacher Carlos Jimenez.

On page 84 there is a redrawn map of Mexico and the United States, showing Mexico with a full one-third more territory, all of it taken back from the United States.

On page 107, it says “Latinos are now realizing that the power to control Aztlan may once again be in their hands.”

Shown are the “repatriated” eight or nine states including Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington.

According to the school text, Mexico is supposed to regain these territories as they rightly belong to the “mythical” homeland of Aztlan.

On page 86, it says “...a free-trade agreement...promises...if Mexico is to allow the U.S. to invest in Mexico...then Mexico should...be allowed to freely export...Mexican labor.

Obviously this would mean a re-evaluation of the border between the two countries as we know it today.”

Jimenez’s Aztlan myth is further amplified at MEChA club meetings held at Santa Barbara Public Schools..

The book, paid for by American tax payers, cites no references or footnotes, leaving school children totally dependent on their teacher to separate fact from opinion and political propaganda.

The book teaches separatism, victimization, nationalism, completely lacks patriotism towards the United States, and promotes an open border policy.

The book is 100 percent editorial—the opinions of the author.


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on May 2, 2007 at 02:48 am

Joel, you are making my point. Thanks. skh from Pensacola is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. andy L from Minot is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. Carlos Jimenez is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. Jesse Jackson is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. Allowing them, collectively, to spew their racist crap and to give it legitimacy in any form whatsoever is against every principle This nation was founded on. There can be no discussion or debate with racist pieces of crap. Talking to them is a complete waste of time, no matter what flavor they are.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 04:10 am

2H9
“skh from Pensacola is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped.”

You must have prior experience with skh from Pensacola This is the first comment of his that I’ve been privy to.

The point: “an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor.” is the part that I agree with. SKH history aside, What is your opposition to that particular statement?


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on May 2, 2007 at 04:20 am

Oh, no! That is part and parcel of the racist agenda, and giving any play to it is wrong. As for jkh, never heard of it before. It’s comment quite clearly shows it to be a racist. The goal of the original civil rights movement was a colorblind society. That has been subsumed and cast away by the neo-racists and their willing minions. No matter their skin color, racists need thumped and punished in as many ways as can be found.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 05:36 am

That is part and parcel of the racist agenda

I completely disagree with you.....it’s a statement of fact....You’re comment was a little bit too PC for me...still on the “A” team though....


Nowadays falsehood stands erect and truth lies prostrate on the ground.

Bezu Fache on May 2, 2007 at 06:07 am

Too PC to disagree....


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on May 2, 2007 at 06:14 am

2Hotel9 - I think you’re jumping the gun in regards to skh.pcola.

likwidshoe on May 2, 2007 at 06:38 am
Avatar for Andy L

Hey!  Here’s a question for Lik, Rob, Whistler, Neiman, Robert, Batman and anyone else who has apparently chosen sides.  Why is it that each of you have never addressed anything pertinent that we ask or acknowledge any of our issues?  Are you that afraid? 

We (meaning the Indians, of course) have all acknowledged that there are problems in our communities.  That’s not what we want answers to.  Rob keeps alluding to an agenda that includes Indian people leaving their homes, finding jobs elsewhere and becoming full-fledged contributing citizens of the greater society.  For Indian people, not only is that easier said than done, it’s also an option that we may not want to consider.

We are treaty Indians.  The United States is a nation of laws.  We have treaty rights.  We have justifiable claim to the reservations we live on.  These are our homes. 

We know and understand the resentment for Indian people in this country.  Over the years, we have been declared incompetent, welfare-grabbing (sucking on the government’s tit, pew!), whoring, drunken, drugging, and barely human (most recently in various comments at this sacred blog site).  We live with bias and misunderstanding on a continual basis.  But, you know what?  We are survivors, and we survive under our terms, as Indian people.

We may be dissatisfied with the way tribal matters are handled and have never hidden that fact from anyone.  But, you must all understand now, that these are our problems, not yours.  We have INTERNAL mechanisms to create change (they are called tribal constitutions).  We have had referendums before and the process is slow, but positive change does come.  The same process is used on reservations across the country.

I will tell you now, the reactive comments each of you have made and the ill-will each of you have shown toward Indian people serves no purpose whatsoever.  We are entirely capable of solving our problems, but, considering the circumstances, the process is time consuming and takes a great deal of effort.

Let me remind each of you that we have our own laws and even if you disagree with those laws, they are our laws, not yours.

If you all want to stop paying taxes in protest to the way funds are distributed to Indian programs on our reservations, have at it.  Each of you seems so proud spewing your so-called conservative republican agenda.  I couldn’t care less. If you want to fight your opponents the democrats, go right ahead.  I’m not going to stand in your way.  I’ll tell you right now, fighting Indian people is way out of your league.

If you consider this love note a threat, so be it.  Any retaliatory responses?  Have at it.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 08:09 am

Andy, you are so full of your self-importance and bitterness that it’s hard for me to know where to start with my rebuttal.  Sure you can isolate yourself behind the rez wall if you like but your condition could be better if you work with the non-Indian community instead of being resentful.  For instance, the Indians at the White Earth rez are prospering becsuse they have cooperative relationship with the non-Indians on many iaauea (law enforcement, health, etc.).  In fact they have their casino in a Mahnomen, a non-Indian community.

Regardless of the treaties and sovereignality, you are also citizens of the USA, snd if you are not taking advantage of that, you are to be pitied.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 2, 2007 at 08:26 am
Avatar for Robert Perry

Nice attempt to change the subject, Andy, but methinks your first order of business should be to apologize to Rob and others you’ve threatened, and then you can proceed to apologize to your own people for transforming the “outside world’s” interest in the problems your people have into a confrontation.

Robert Perry on May 2, 2007 at 08:39 am

Andy L spams, Hey!  Here’s a question for Lik, Rob, Whistler, Neiman, Robert...

Dude, how many times are you going to spam this comment?

likwidshoe on May 2, 2007 at 08:56 am
Avatar for Andy L

Hey you guys!  Check out “I used to be a Raver”, dated April 1, 2005.  By Lik and posted by Bob.

No wonder you guys are “kings”.  Damn you’re so cool!

I would have never known!  lol

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 10:02 am
Avatar for Andy L

docdave.  you ever hear of the White Earth Land Settlement Act?  How about the outright theft of land at White Earth?  Also, Mahnomen used to be Indian, was stolen by the non-Indians.

Damn it, if you’re going to use examples, do your homework first!

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 10:05 am
Avatar for Andy L

docdave, Also, Minnesota is a P.L. 280 state.  State and tribe share jx.  Not so in ND.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 10:06 am
Avatar for Andy L

Lik, you’re the only one that spams around here!  And, all the way from OHIO no less.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 10:08 am
Avatar for Andy L

docdave.  Read this “the White Earth Tragedy, Ethicity and Dispossession at a Minnesota Anishinabe Reservation” by Melissa L. Meyer, University of Nebraska Press, 1994.

Or, better yet, why don’t you try and contact Winona LaDuke about the issue? She’s an expert.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 10:11 am
Avatar for Andy L

Robert P.  It was the “outside world” that opened this can of worms.  So be it.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 10:13 am
Avatar for Andy L

Docdave.  Indians are citizens of the United States because of the “Indian Citizenship Act of 1924”.  One unique provision to the act was “that the granting of such citizenship shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of any Indian to tribal or other property”. 

The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 was unilatterally applied to all Indians without their consent.  Many tribes today, most notable the six nations do not acknowledge the act. 

The only apparent benefit of the citizenship act for Indians is the power to vote.  Even with the act, many Indians were not franchised by states until the 1950s.

The Act qualifies Indians to have and exercise rights under the 15th amendment, but does not extend due-process and equal protection rights.

Indian people did not choose to become citizens, many did not want to be citizens, and many still do not want that.  You should read up on this.  Real interesting stuff, historically.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 11:06 am
Avatar for Andy L

Lik, How can you have any opinion on living conditions at Turtle Mountain?  You’re from OHIO!

Any Indians over there?

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 11:08 am
Avatar for Andy L

Lik, How can you have any opinion on living conditions at Turtle Mountain?  You’re from OHIO!

Any Indians over there?

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 11:11 am
Avatar for Andy L

I REPEAT!  ARE YOU LISTENING!  YOU’RE FROM OHIO!  AND YOU PROFESS TO BE SUCH AN EXPERT ON TURTLE MOUNTAINS!

WHAT A FARCE!  YOUR JUST A POOR LITTLE “RAVING” OHIO BOY!

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 11:13 am
Avatar for Andy L

Hey, I noticed.  Before us Indians got interested in your sacred blog site, you didn’t have many visitors.

Just each other.  Like one real personal circle jerk.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 11:16 am

Indian people did not choose to become citizens, many did not want to be citizens, and many still do not want that.

Andy, in your eagerness to show your intelligence and knowledge, you totally missed my point.  Regardless how Indiens became citizens of the USA, they are.  Now if you don’t want to share the advantages of citizenship, so be it.  However, I know of no Indians that have officially renounced their USA citizenship possibly because that would deny them some of the Federal aid (most of it is not tied to treaty promises) they get.  There is an old saying that some people want to have their cake and eat it too.  That sounds about right for Indians like you.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 2, 2007 at 11:41 am

Andy L
Dude. C’mon! What are you trying to achieve here? On another note, I didn’t know you guys had internet connections in the longhouses! That’s so cool! Also, most people around here like Lik - he’s not an asshole troll. I feel that an improved attitude and slightly more productive posts would earn you a bit more respect and would earn your comments a bit more consideration. I’m just sayin.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on May 2, 2007 at 11:52 am
Avatar for Andy L

doc, as usual, you are right again!  I certainly apologize for being so stupid.  Forgive me, please?

nice deflect.  try again.  What about the White Earth question?  Or, are you avoiding that one too?

If you don’t want to discuss these issues with me, go find another site, you can jerk someone there that cares.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 11:53 am
Avatar for Andy L

Sparkie, let Lik defend himself.  And...Where are you from?  Let me guess...maybe later.  lol

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 11:55 am
Avatar for Andy L

Maybe the police should be alerted. Andy is crossing into that line.

likwidshoe on April 30, 2007 at 10:38 pm

The OHIO police?

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:13 pm

Here’s a new one: locationism.  You are forbidden by the thought police(Andy and his ilk) from commenting if you aren’t from the right place.  Good going.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 2, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Avatar for Andy L

I didn’t know you guys had internet connections in the longhouses! That’s so cool!

Sparkie, thanks for that racist generalization.  I appreciate it.  For your info, longhouses are cool.  Our tribe is a Teepee tribe (Plains Ojibwa).

Also, I even have DSL!  On a reservation, no less.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:16 pm

Andy L
Born in upstate ny - lockport. Raised in vt. Now in ri. Soon in pa. Also, my criminal record includes about 5 or 6 underaged drinking charges. punk.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on May 2, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Avatar for Andy L

Robert, there you go again.  It’s exactly what I expected.  You are so predictable.

Lik shouldn’t be generalizing about the Turtle Mountain Reservation, or North Dakotans for that matter.

By the way, where u from?

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Avatar for Andy L

Born in upstate ny - lockport. Raised in vt. Now in ri. Soon in pa. Also, my criminal record includes about 5 or 6 underaged drinking charges. punk.

That explains everything.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:21 pm
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Besides all the Indians, are the only North Dakotans participating in this site Rob and Whistler?

My! Oh! My!  I’m not in Kansas anymore!  Toto?  Toto? Toto?

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:24 pm
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Rhode Island you say.  Long way from good old North Dakota.  This is the hearland sucker!  Get a life.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:26 pm
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locationism

Wow, good one.  I’m impressed.

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:29 pm
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Andy L.,

I don’t know why you even try. You clearly can’t convey your message (if you even have a message) without profanities and incohesive rants. Calling someone a bigot doesn’t bring anyone over to your cause, especially when you don’t provide any examples of bigotry.

Secondly, reservation problems are everyone’s problem. Until reservations become entirely self sufficient, requiring no tax dollars from US citizens, these problems are ones that everyone has a right to comment on.

Lastly, you seem to think you are superior for some reason. The truth is, you are no more native than I am. We were both born in the US, making us both natives of this land.

Also, I even have DSL!

Sorry to hear that. You should really get a cable modem.

Andrew on May 2, 2007 at 12:31 pm
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I don’t know why you even try. You clearly can’t convey your message (if you even have a message) without profanities and incohesive rants. Calling someone a bigot doesn’t bring anyone over to your cause, especially when you don’t provide any examples of bigotry.

Welcome!  Where you from?

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 12:35 pm

Andy: You’re a real “one-trick pony”; all ad hominem hate, all the time.  Boring.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 2, 2007 at 12:36 pm
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Where you from?

Firstly, I know what you are getting at. You think because I’m not a NoDak, I have no right to comment on this topic. Well I’m a US citizen and taxpayer giving me every right to comment.

I’m from PA by the way. And yes, we do have reservations in this state. Many areas have Native American names.

Why are you asking where everyone is from? Jealous that Rob has a national (actually international) audience while no one cares about your opinions outside a 5 mi radius?

Andrew on May 2, 2007 at 12:41 pm

You’re from OHIO!  Any Indians over there?

The Cleveland Indians! (Duh!)



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 2, 2007 at 12:55 pm

Andy L
What the eff does where I’m from matter? I don’t abuse hard drugs (soft ones sometimes), liquor, or recieve any government assitance at all. If I did and someone pointed that out, I wouldn’t be offended that the truth is coming out…
About the longhouse comment. I know they are cool. I know they are a northeastern native american phenomenon. It was a joke. I was being an ass… like you!


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on May 2, 2007 at 12:56 pm

Before us Indians got interested in your sacred blog site, you didn’t have many visitors.

Look at the site meter at the bottom of the page, genius. It’s approaching 3 million.



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 2, 2007 at 12:56 pm

Andy L seems to be under the impression that the human condition begins and ends at the state border (or perhaps the rez border). He’s churlish, loud and foul mouthed… perhaps he should run for Congress!



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 2, 2007 at 01:09 pm

The Cleveland Indians have a cartoon character for a mascot, Chief Wahoo, whom I’ve always thought was an embarrassment. I always cringe when I see him depicted. But, after reading Andy L’s rants for several days, Chief Wahoo doesn’t seem nearly so embarrassing by comparison…



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 2, 2007 at 01:50 pm
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I’m from PA by the way. And yes, we do have reservations in this state. Many areas have Native American names.

Let’s see, sayanythingblog is a North Dakota site, the Dakota Beacon rag is a North Dakota journal, the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation is in North Dakota.  Wow, I don’t see Pennsylvania, Ohio, Minnesota, Rhode Island!

What’s up with that?

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 04:32 pm
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But, after reading Andy L’s rants for several days, Chief Wahoo doesn’t seem nearly so embarrassing by comparison…

Proof, you’re such a bigot!

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 04:33 pm

Proof, you’re such a bigot!

No, you’re just such a joke!


A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 2, 2007 at 04:35 pm

Joel, Mick, I must confess to having a special place in my heart for white racists. Call it a character flaw. I was taught from a very young age to consider such persons as primary targets for harassment and to disrupt their tiny little lives whenever such opportunity arises. A philosophy that has nearly landed my white-trash ass in jail a few times.

andy, my, my, my but you’ve had a busy 4 hours. Did you check my profile? Want a hint? Western PA ain’t the only place I been in my life. And when you stop spewing thinnnnly veiled socialist crap ameliorated with self-loathing and a nice shot victimological pity seeking someone here may actually consider talking with you, instead of at you.

Till then fuck off.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 04:37 pm

Oh, and andy? It is called the “INTERNET”. You might have heard of it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 04:40 pm

People in China are reading what you say here. Don’t that make you feel all important and shit?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 04:44 pm

Andy L. Asks where I’m from. I’m from planet Earth, and on MY planet, we use words to convey meaning.
When I say “Chief Wahoo is an embarrassment.” That’s a clue that maybe I’m not a bigot.
When I say,

after reading Andy L’s rants for several days, Chief Wahoo doesn’t seem nearly so embarrassing by comparison…

I’m saying that you, Andy L. are a bigger embarassment!

Bigot? Hardly! I think race is one of the lamest criteria for judging a person’s nature or character! There are good white people and bad white people. Honest blacks, dishonest blacks. Smart Indians, and some like Andy L. You can’t tell by race alone and only fools try. (And don’t worry, Andy, from what I can tell, you’re full blooded!)



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on May 2, 2007 at 04:50 pm

Lik, sorry. Multiple threads and all. It is possible. I just don’t like racists.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 05:16 pm
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Hey you guys!  Check out “I used to be a Raver”, dated April 1, 2005.  By Lik and posted by Rob.
No wonder you guys are “kings”.  Damn you’re so cool!
I would have never known!  lol

Bigot? Hardly! I think race is one of the lamest criteria for judging a person’s nature or character! There are good white people and bad white people. Honest blacks, dishonest blacks. Smart Indians, and some like Andy L. You can’t tell by race alone and only fools try. (And don’t worry, Andy, from what I can tell, you’re full blooded!)
Proof on May 2, 2007 at 04:50 pm

Proof, you’re so damn cool!  Shit anyway!

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 05:16 pm
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I just don’t like racists.
2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 05:16 pm

Self hatred?  Take care Hotel.  A clinical psychologist may be able to help!

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 05:19 pm
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Till then fuck off.
2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 04:37 pm

back at ya, BOY!

Andy L on May 2, 2007 at 05:32 pm

Naw. I am secure in myself. You, on the other hand, are quite porous, in need of justification, insecure. Your illustrated need to drag others down is indicative of that.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 05:38 pm

Joel, Mick, I must confess to having a special place in my heart for white racists.
2H9

Huh????!!!!!


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on May 3, 2007 at 12:02 am

2Hotel9 - I think you’re jumping the gun in regards to skh.pcola.
likwidshoe on May 2, 2007 at 07:38 am

I agree with Lik..a hypersensitive overreaction..but understandable in the present context.


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on May 3, 2007 at 12:07 am

No over reaction. I just hate racists. Is that so difficult to understand?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 3, 2007 at 03:46 am
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No over reaction. I just hate racists. Is that so difficult to understand?
2Hotel9 on May 3, 2007 at 03:46 am

Self-hate?  You better get some help!

Andy L on May 3, 2007 at 09:13 am

There are only two possibilities.

1. We are all racists to varying degrees, such erroneously called racism being a negative reaction to other racial groups or a positive reaction in favor of a racial group.

2. Since among humans there is only one race - the human race, racism cannot exist unless one hates human beings in general.

We all have negative reactions to other human beings and such responses to skin color, accent, gender, or beliefs can be used to classify other human beings as being part of a group we don’t feel comfortable being near or having interactions with them. But, unless there is a serious mental problem, usually what we call racism is simply intolerance of an incredibly long list of things that makes us uncomfortable about other individuals.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on May 3, 2007 at 09:50 am
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Nice try neiman.

These guys aren’t going to listen to you!  They’ll probably find your reasoning “flawed”.

Andy L on May 3, 2007 at 03:52 pm
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Maybe the police should be alerted. Andy is crossing into that line.
likwidshoe on April 30, 2007 at 10:38 pm

Listen boy.  You crossed that line long before I entered into the picture.  Must really make you feel good, talking smut.  Cloaked falsely.  Superiority, ya, I’m so sure.

If you want, why don’t you come over her, on the rez, and press charges?

Andy L on May 3, 2007 at 05:39 pm

Or perhaps he could just go to your old friends, the FBI.

What is this? The 3rd or 4th time you have whined about that sentence. You truly are lame. Not even rising to the level of pathetic. You are the one who intimated a widespread conspiracy to intimidate others into silence. I am certain there is a Federal law or 2 concerning that. Equally certain ND has a couple also.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 3, 2007 at 05:48 pm
Avatar for Andy L

What is this? The 3rd or 4th time you have whined about that sentence. You truly are lame. Not even rising to the level of pathetic. You are the one who intimated a widespread conspiracy to intimidate others into silence. I am certain there is a Federal law or 2 concerning that. Equally certain ND has a couple also.
2Hotel9 on May 3, 2007 at 05:48 pm

You sure?  Hey, go right ahead.  Let’s really make a national issue out of what you guys have done.  I’m just waiting for the world to find out what’s been published in the Dakota Beacon!  Don’t worry, it’s coming.  sooner than you think.

Andy L on May 3, 2007 at 05:56 pm

Andy L said, Listen boy.  You crossed that line long before I entered into the picture.  Must really make you feel good, talking smut.  Cloaked falsely.  Superiority, ya, I’m so sure.

Then call the police. I’m sure they’d be really happy dealing with a false charge.

If you want, why don’t you come over her, on the rez, and press charges?

If you’re going to stay in