When Internet Debate Gets Ugly And Bloggers Get Threatened

As most regular readers of Say Anything know I’ve managed to stir up no small amount of controversy in my home state over a column I wrote in the Dakota Beacon magazine (and also published on this site). The column was about the abhorrent conditions on one of North Dakota’s Indian reservations, and several months later it got noticed on the reservation and distrubted as photocopies all over the place. Not unsurprisingly it made a lot of people on those reservations (many of them government workers actually involved with the areas I described) angry. Very angry.
My original post of the column from December of 2006 is here, my follow-up post on the controversy it subsequently created months later is here. There are about 700 or so comments on those two threads, so if you want to catch up you can.
Some of the comments have been positive, some have been critical and some have been downright mean. But that’s par for the course when it comes to internet debate. It isn’t always civil. It’s rarely civil, in fact, but rarely is it more than passionate people sniping at each other in a mostly anonymous forum.
Unfortunately, my column about the Indian reservations has caused some to cross the line from snarky internet banter to threats. As an example, here’s Andy L. commenting on one of the threads linked above:

Rob, you spineless wonder. You come on our reservation, make all kinds of inaccurate observations, publish those observations in a conservative republican rag that’s peddled all over the state, and you can’t figure out why we’re all hopping mad?
You should be ashamed of yourself. You’re not doing anybody any favors, especially your right wing bigot friends. We are not going to stop commenting on this issue. Our next step is to formally approach the tribe and have the tribe formally approach your governor for an apology.
Do you realize what you have done? There are 30 thousand enrolled at Turtle Mountains. We have members in every city in North Dakota. We communicate with each other as one. This will not die down. You aren’t taking on a bunch of dimwits. Watch your back. We’re everywhere!

So now, because of an opinion expressed on a political blog and in a political magazine, I must “watch my back.” I have to start to wonder if I need to be concerned about myself and my family.
That’s pathetic.
My point in this is to remind people of this: While we all communicate in this forum we call the internet relatively anonymously and with strangers, we need to remember that we’re all just people. Concerned, passionate and (most of the time) caring people. We have opinions, and we can be mean and arrogant, but at the end of the day it’s about communicating. Not threats and intimidation.
I love writing about politics for all of you, and I love having this blog and the sizable audience that goes with it. It’s a rare opportunity to have such access and influence, and I appreciate it for what it is. But tonight, after being threatened for doing no more than expressing an opinion, I have for the first time started to feel like maybe this isn’t worth it. Maybe it’s not worth it to call down all this heat on myself just for speaking out.
I’m not thinking about stopping blogging, but tonight I’m feeling a little demoralized. Like maybe this isn’t as much fun as it once was.

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  • http://Array Andy L

    I didn’t know you guys had internet connections in the longhouses! That’s so cool!

    Sparkie, thanks for that racist generalization. I appreciate it. For your info, longhouses are cool. Our tribe is a Teepee tribe (Plains Ojibwa).

    Also, I even have DSL! On a reservation, no less.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    Nice attempt to change the subject, Andy, but methinks your first order of business should be to apologize to Rob and others you’ve threatened, and then you can proceed to apologize to your own people for transforming the “outside world’s” interest in the problems your people have into a confrontation.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    Too PC to disagree….

  • docdave

    Indian people did not choose to become citizens, many did not want to be citizens, and many still do not want that.

    Andy, in your eagerness to show your intelligence and knowledge, you totally missed my point. Regardless how Indiens became citizens of the USA, they are. Now if you don’t want to share the advantages of citizenship, so be it. However, I know of no Indians that have officially renounced their USA citizenship possibly because that would deny them some of the Federal aid (most of it is not tied to treaty promises) they get. There is an old saying that some people want to have their cake and eat it too. That sounds about right for Indians like you.

  • http://vdvfamily.com/ Sphagnum

    I got your back, Rob… well, from 2000 miles away… ;)

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    The other alternative, is that you are intentionally misreading what he said to try to gin up false outrage. That’s not what you’re about, is it?

    I know how I would answer that question.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    The Cleveland Indians have a cartoon character for a mascot, Chief Wahoo, whom I’ve always thought was an embarrassment. I always cringe when I see him depicted. But, after reading Andy L’s rants for several days, Chief Wahoo doesn’t seem nearly so embarrassing by comparison…

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Hot is implying Indian people are their own worst enemies because they live their lives as “cradle to grave” socialists!

    He’s implying that “cradle to grave” socialists are the worst enemy of any impoverished people. To the extent that Indian people also hold these views, would it not be a kindness to enlighten them if they were truly their own worst enemies?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    ikwidshoe, joel, bat one, whistler:

    You will never go through the things I have
    , been treated differently because of who you are and what you look like.

    Did I ever pretend otherwise? But what does that have to do with the issue at hand that poverty is pretty bleak on the reservation and in my opinion we need to do what we can to change that. (Now you and I may disagree on the fix (that’s ok as long as we discuss it).

    In my opinion we need to make the transition from welfare state (for all people on welfare not just Indians) to people who are able to take care of themselves. We should do that as gently as we can, but at some point we’re going to have to tell people that can work that they have to.

    But have I treated you rudely because of who you are? I don’t think I’ve even treated you rudely, although I have treated Andy after he was rude to me.

    Question must I in your opinion agree with you because you are an Indian and I am not?

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Before us Indians got interested in your sacred blog site, you didn’t have many visitors.

    Look at the site meter at the bottom of the page, genius. It’s approaching 3 million.

  • Andy L

    Hey, I noticed. Before us Indians got interested in your sacred blog site, you didn’t have many visitors.

    Just each other. Like one real personal circle jerk.

  • Andy L

    Hey! Here’s a question for Lik, Rob, Whistler, Neiman, Robert, Batman and anyone else who has apparently chosen sides. Why is it that each of you have never addressed anything pertinent that we ask or acknowledge any of our issues? Are you that afraid?

    We (meaning the Indians, of course) have all acknowledged that there are problems in our communities. That’s not what we want answers to. Rob keeps alluding to an agenda that includes Indian people leaving their homes, finding jobs elsewhere and becoming full-fledged contributing citizens of the greater society. For Indian people, not only is that easier said than done, it’s also an option that we may not want to consider.

    We are treaty Indians. The United States is a nation of laws. We have treaty rights. We have justifiable claim to the reservations we live on. These are our homes.

    We know and understand the resentment for Indian people in this country. Over the years, we have been declared incompetent, welfare-grabbing (sucking on the government’s tit, pew!), whoring, drunken, drugging, and barely human (most recently in various comments at this sacred blog site). We live with bias and misunderstanding on a continual basis. But, you know what? We are survivors, and we survive under our terms, as Indian people.

    We may be dissatisfied with the way tribal matters are handled and have never hidden that fact from anyone. But, you must all understand now, that these are our problems, not yours. We have INTERNAL mechanisms to create change (they are called tribal constitutions). We have had referendums before and the process is slow, but positive change does come. The same process is used on reservations across the country.

    I will tell you now, the reactive comments each of you have made and the ill-will each of you have shown toward Indian people serves no purpose whatsoever. We are entirely capable of solving our problems, but, considering the circumstances, the process is time consuming and takes a great deal of effort.

    Let me remind each of you that we have our own laws and even if you disagree with those laws, they are our laws, not yours.

    If you all want to stop paying taxes in protest to the way funds are distributed to Indian programs on our reservations, have at it. Each of you seems so proud spewing your so-called conservative republican agenda. I couldn’t care less. If you want to fight your opponents the democrats, go right ahead. I’m not going to stand in your way. I’ll tell you right now, fighting Indian people is way out of your league.

    If you consider this love note a threat, so be it. Any retaliatory responses? Have at it.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    you deserve a sound, hard punch in the snoot.

    And what do you deserve,Cut and Paste Cut and Run Ronald, you lying crapweasel?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Andy L AKA Andrew Laverdure has also stated, “Hope you enjoy the lessons that are coming your way.”

    Maybe the police should be alerted. Andy is crossing into that line.

  • 2Hotel9

    The best defense is an aggressive, active offense. I believe BIA would be interested in who is using its computers and Internet connection for blog browsing. Is it part of andy’s job description to noodle about the blogsphere being an ass?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Btw, you do have to laugh at Andy. He’s so incensed over what Rob has wrote that he wants the Governor of the state to apologize! Talk about ridiculous.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Learn to read Proof.

    Funny! I was thinking exactly the same thing about you!
    The other alternative, is that you are intentionally misreading what he said to try to gin up false outrage. That’s not what you’re about, is it?

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive
    cradle to grave socialism are their worst enemies. And we know it.

    So, Hot, this is why you hate Indian People so vehemently?

    Andy L.: You really blew this one! The full quote:

    As for the Native American community on a national level, you have done them no service. Morons [who] spewing nannystate [and](like how I worked in your new word?), cradle to grave socialism are their [the Native American community] worst enemies.

    How in the world can you say 2Hotel9 hates Indian People by identifying a group of people he thinks are their worst enemies? Wouldn’t you like to know who your true enemies are? Is that a characteristic of vehement hate? I don’t think so!

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Regarding Mr. Walter’s post, it’s not exactly factual:

    That’s an understatement! Cut and Paste Cut and Run Ronald has problems sorting truth from fiction. In fact, he has quite a history of it. We document his idiocy on a daily basis and he keeps coming back, like a bizarro Energizer bunny, pooping out little tidbits he’s copied from other sites, without regard as to whether any of it is in the least bit accurate !

  • Xene

    Rob and lik,
    Rob your article implicates that your a victim. Lik , Rob described a community with utter vulgarity. He has publicly insulted tribes in North Dakota. What is worst he defends himself by implying that the same people he has vulgarized are threatening him. Is his behavior (Rob) absolute without consequence? No, not when it comes to Indian Country. We have never been a people to step aside. Most of all we have always stood up to defend those of our people who are unable to. Rob will never be harmed he needs to face the music. And yes much more is on the way.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Xene said, Lik , Rob described a community with utter vulgarity. He has publicly insulted tribes in North Dakota.

    All he did was tell the truth.

    What is worst he defends himself by implying that the same people he has vulgarized are threatening him.

    What? Are you attempting to excuse Andy’s threats?

    Rob will never be harmed he needs to face the music. And yes much more is on the way.

    What’s that supposed to mean?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    Also, Schell’s brewery was founded in 1860, not 1846. New Ulm was only founded in 1854.

    http://www.schellsbrewery.com/

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    Rob your article implicates that your a victim. …What is worst he defends himself by implying that the same people he has vulgarized are threatening him. Is his behavior (Rob) absolute without consequence? …. yes much more is on the way.
    Xene on May 1, 2007 at 01:41 am

    What a fucking illiterate moron….no doubt a graduate of one of those fine (“we are succeeding”) reservation schools!!

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Physician. Heal. Self.

  • Puzzlefeet

    Sort of like this article in yesterday’s Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901555.html

    Yes, blogging has become very uncivilized but threats like “Watch your back” don’t belong here or on any blog for that matter. If you can’t argue without the threats because you’re “hopping mad”, then hop onto another blog.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Andy L seems to be under the impression that the human condition begins and ends at the state border (or perhaps the rez border). He’s churlish, loud and foul mouthed… perhaps he should run for Congress!

  • Ronald Walter

    A BIA official in Minnesota ca. 1854 said about the local Sioux population who were existing on minimum sustenance, “Let them eat dung.”

    The local natives weren’t happy about his sentiments and in 1854 attacked the town of New Ulm. They were so incensed at the complete lack of sensitivity, they burned the town.

    Schell’s brewery, established in 1846, was supplying booze to the local natives. August Schell had a favorable rapport with the local native population.

    His brewery still stands. It was spared from the wrath of the warriors who reeked havoc on the German settlers. They liked August Schell. He treated them fairly. He gave them some hope, not just a libation to imbibe.

    Can you blame indigenous peoples for airing their grievances and becoming somewhat indignant?

    “What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?”

  • Ronald Walter

    Um… skh, you deserve a sound, hard punch in the snoot.

  • skh.pcola

    Another example of a member of an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor. Native Americans are no more oppressed than black Americans are, they just have their own “ghettos” to skulk about in. Screw them.

  • 2Hotel9

    Oh, no! That is part and parcel of the racist agenda, and giving any play to it is wrong. As for jkh, never heard of it before. It’s comment quite clearly shows it to be a racist. The goal of the original civil rights movement was a colorblind society. That has been subsumed and cast away by the neo-racists and their willing minions. No matter their skin color, racists need thumped and punished in as many ways as can be found.

  • Mickey

    Rob

    You quit – They win

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Andy L. Asks where I’m from. I’m from planet Earth, and on MY planet, we use words to convey meaning.
    When I say “Chief Wahoo is an embarrassment.” That’s a clue that maybe I’m not a bigot.
    When I say,

    after reading Andy L’s rants for several days, Chief Wahoo doesn’t seem nearly so embarrassing by comparison…

    I’m saying that you, Andy L. are a bigger embarassment!

    Bigot? Hardly! I think race is one of the lamest criteria for judging a person’s nature or character! There are good white people and bad white people. Honest blacks, dishonest blacks. Smart Indians, and some like Andy L. You can’t tell by race alone and only fools try. (And don’t worry, Andy, from what I can tell, you’re full blooded!)

  • http://Tifosi1F1.blogspot.com/ Chris Brownell

    In my opinion you need to file a complaint against this pathetic dolt, and do so today. POST HASTE!

    Every time you get something like this you should file a complaint against the person. You should treat people like this, as though they are little children. If you color on the wall with your crayon you will get a time out. Eventually they will be dissuaded from threatening people when ever they feel slighted by disagreement.

    I don’t believe it is legal to communicate a threat in any media, (letter, telephone, verbal, or on the internet) and if I were you I could take a copy of the complaint form and make a few dozen photo copies, just to make it easier. The police are probably not the only agency that would handle a complaint like this, and you might want to look into some state agencies that could help with people doing this sort of stuff.

    With the number of readers you have, I am sure you will not only run into this guy with a proclivity towards violence. As a matter of fact liberals have been well documented at destroying property and causing injury to people who they disagree with intellectually. Shocking I know, but none the less true. Who knows perhaps this being NORTH DAKOTA’S MOST POPULAR POLICITICAL WEB LOG; you may even get a dead fish in the mail from Rham Emmanuel.

    C.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    Regarding Mr. Walter’s post, it’s not exactly factual:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_New_Ulm

    Never mind that liquor is not exactly one of the big blessings on most reservations.

    Hang in there, Rob. As I’ve noted before, when people resort to tactics like this, they are generally proving your point for you. Remember also that when the saber is being rattled, it is in its sheath.

  • 2Hotel9

    As much as it irks me I must agree with RonWa’s second point. skh in Pensacola does need thumped. His racism is just as reprehensible as andy L and his crowd’s is.

  • robert108

    Once again, the thin veneer of civility is stripped away from yet another leftie minority, revealing the truth of its Stalinist reality. Lefties regularly recruit minorities with taxpayer money, then demand absolute loyalty and lockstep adherence to their ideology. Native Americans, you’ve been bought!

  • docdave

    I’m not quitting. Just feeling like this isn’t as fun as it once was.

    Hang in there, Rob. Telling it how one sees it is never uniformly popular and often resented. I speak from experience.

  • http://vdvfamily.com/ Sphagnum

    Can you blame indigenous peoples for airing their grievances and becoming somewhat indignant?

    Of course you can. Actions have consequences. They burned a town down to the ground, according to your fable. They should have been (or hopefully were) round up and shot. Is that really difficult to understand?

    What kind of moron would burn a town down because someone said “let them eat dung” anyway…

  • Andy L

    docdave. Read this “the White Earth Tragedy, Ethicity and Dispossession at a Minnesota Anishinabe Reservation” by Melissa L. Meyer, University of Nebraska Press, 1994.

    Or, better yet, why don’t you try and contact Winona LaDuke about the issue? She’s an expert.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    2H9; you’re welcome. My point, though, was to further discredit the fable told.

    And do insults lead to war? Sometimes, certainly. However, in this case, whatever the immediate cause of the attacks on New Ulm might have been was accompanied by a history of other events. It certainly wasn’t just “let them eat dung.” Hunger, lack of hunting, history of war, yes. A single insult? No way.

  • 2Hotel9

    RP, thanks for the link! Always like to see small breweries succeeding. I’m gonna order some of their dark, and one of their seasonal ales sounds like it may be close to Bass. Always looking for something to match Bass, it is hard to find non-skunked this far inland nowadays.

  • Andy L

    Docdave. Indians are citizens of the United States because of the “Indian Citizenship Act of 1924″. One unique provision to the act was “that the granting of such citizenship shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of any Indian to tribal or other property”.

    The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 was unilatterally applied to all Indians without their consent. Many tribes today, most notable the six nations do not acknowledge the act.

    The only apparent benefit of the citizenship act for Indians is the power to vote. Even with the act, many Indians were not franchised by states until the 1950s.

    The Act qualifies Indians to have and exercise rights under the 15th amendment, but does not extend due-process and equal protection rights.

    Indian people did not choose to become citizens, many did not want to be citizens, and many still do not want that. You should read up on this. Real interesting stuff, historically.

  • 2Hotel9

    Spaghetti, I am just venturing a guess, but probably starving people. The burning down most certainly followed the looting for food and ammunition. At least that is how I would run the op.

    I know, RP. RonWa actually did what most people do, compress historical timelines to fit his purposes.

  • Andy L

    But, after reading Andy L’s rants for several days, Chief Wahoo doesn’t seem nearly so embarrassing by comparison…

    Proof, you’re such a bigot!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    But, you are a grown man, you knew that publishing such an opinion piece would stir people up and anger a lot of people. If you thought that people were going to take the things that you chose to point out lying down, you are kidding yourself.

    In other words: some people won’t take the truth lying down. They will fight it and this is okay because it is to be expected.

    What a sorry excuse.

    However with that said, I do not feel sorry for you. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and should be responsible for the words they put out there.

    Why do some of you insist on telling us that you don’t feel sorry for Rob? Who cares? He doesn’t want anyone to feel sorry for him and he’s not asking for it. He doesn’t come from a community that thinks that way.

  • Andy L

    Nice try neiman.

    These guys aren’t going to listen to you! They’ll probably find your reasoning “flawed”.

  • Andy L

    Robert, there you go again. It’s exactly what I expected. You are so predictable.

    Lik shouldn’t be generalizing about the Turtle Mountain Reservation, or North Dakotans for that matter.

    By the way, where u from?

  • Andy L

    doc, as usual, you are right again! I certainly apologize for being so stupid. Forgive me, please?

    nice deflect. try again. What about the White Earth question? Or, are you avoiding that one too?

    If you don’t want to discuss these issues with me, go find another site, you can jerk someone there that cares.

  • docdave

    Andy, you are so full of your self-importance and bitterness that it’s hard for me to know where to start with my rebuttal. Sure you can isolate yourself behind the rez wall if you like but your condition could be better if you work with the non-Indian community instead of being resentful. For instance, the Indians at the White Earth rez are prospering becsuse they have cooperative relationship with the non-Indians on many iaauea (law enforcement, health, etc.). In fact they have their casino in a Mahnomen, a non-Indian community.

    Regardless of the treaties and sovereignality, you are also citizens of the USA, snd if you are not taking advantage of that, you are to be pitied.

  • 2Hotel9

    Naw. I am secure in myself. You, on the other hand, are quite porous, in need of justification, insecure. Your illustrated need to drag others down is indicative of that.

  • Andy L

    Born in upstate ny – lockport. Raised in vt. Now in ri. Soon in pa. Also, my criminal record includes about 5 or 6 underaged drinking charges. punk.

    That explains everything.

  • Andy L

    I’m from PA by the way. And yes, we do have reservations in this state. Many areas have Native American names.

    Let’s see, sayanythingblog is a North Dakota site, the Dakota Beacon rag is a North Dakota journal, the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation is in North Dakota. Wow, I don’t see Pennsylvania, Ohio, Minnesota, Rhode Island!

    What’s up with that?

  • Andy L

    Besides all the Indians, are the only North Dakotans participating in this site Rob and Whistler?

    My! Oh! My! I’m not in Kansas anymore! Toto? Toto? Toto?

  • robert108

    Andy: You’re a real “one-trick pony”; all ad hominem hate, all the time. Boring.

  • robert108

    Here’s a new one: locationism. You are forbidden by the thought police(Andy and his ilk) from commenting if you aren’t from the right place. Good going.

  • Andy L

    docdave. you ever hear of the White Earth Land Settlement Act? How about the outright theft of land at White Earth? Also, Mahnomen used to be Indian, was stolen by the non-Indians.

    Damn it, if you’re going to use examples, do your homework first!

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    You’re from OHIO! Any Indians over there?

    The Cleveland Indians! (Duh!)

  • Andrew

    Where you from?

    Firstly, I know what you are getting at. You think because I’m not a NoDak, I have no right to comment on this topic. Well I’m a US citizen and taxpayer giving me every right to comment.

    I’m from PA by the way. And yes, we do have reservations in this state. Many areas have Native American names.

    Why are you asking where everyone is from? Jealous that Rob has a national (actually international) audience while no one cares about your opinions outside a 5 mi radius?

  • Andy L

    Hey you guys! Check out “I used to be a Raver”, dated April 1, 2005. By Lik and posted by Bob.

    No wonder you guys are “kings”. Damn you’re so cool!

    I would have never known! lol

  • Andrew

    Andy L.,

    I don’t know why you even try. You clearly can’t convey your message (if you even have a message) without profanities and incohesive rants. Calling someone a bigot doesn’t bring anyone over to your cause, especially when you don’t provide any examples of bigotry.

    Secondly, reservation problems are everyone’s problem. Until reservations become entirely self sufficient, requiring no tax dollars from US citizens, these problems are ones that everyone has a right to comment on.

    Lastly, you seem to think you are superior for some reason. The truth is, you are no more native than I am. We were both born in the US, making us both natives of this land.

    Also, I even have DSL!

    Sorry to hear that. You should really get a cable modem.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    2Hotel9 – I think you’re jumping the gun in regards to skh.pcola.
    likwidshoe on May 2, 2007 at 07:38 am

    I agree with Lik..a hypersensitive overreaction..but understandable in the present context.

  • Just_Me

    http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2007/05/05/news/topnews/132950.txt

    From the May 5, 2007 front page of the Bismarck Tribune

    His Horse Is Thunder, along with Spirit Lake Nation Chairwoman Myra Pearson, Three Affiliated Tribes Chairman Marcus Wells Jr., and Jim Baker, a councilman for the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa, spoke about how methamphetamine use has ravaged their respective reservations.

    Pearson said six babies were born with methamphetamine in their systems in one year on the Spirit Lake reservation. She said meth use has brought with it increased violent crime.

    Baker said methamphetamine use has increased health problems on reservations.

    “We have people dying at a younger age of heart attacks,” he said.

    l Benjamin, director of the Great Plains regional office of the BIA – located in Aberdeen, S.D., said a multi-phasic approach, including the medical and educational fields along with law enforcement, is needed to fight methamphetamine.

    “I, too, have been told this is the worst epidemic, worst situation, since smallpox,” Benjamin said.

    And Rob is responsible for this because…………….?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Andy L said, None of you guys even care to debate.

    Translation: we don’t agree with him.

    You couldn’t really debate an Indian Person reasonably anyway, because you refuse to listen.

    “refuse to listen” = we don’t agree with him.

    You’ve got your own language.

  • 2Hotel9

    People in China are reading what you say here. Don’t that make you feel all important and shit?

  • Andy L

    Hey! Question! What’s a nannystater and why do they keep calling Rob Port that at Bismarck Dems.com?
    Andy L on May 4, 2007 at 05:17 pm

    Hey, they call him other thing too. I wonder why?

    Should check out the Dents, too. They all seem to have a problem with Rob. Real popular there, Rob. Just how on earth do you do it?

  • Andy L

    Hey you guys! Check out “I used to be a Raver”, dated April 1, 2005. By Lik and posted by Rob.
    No wonder you guys are “kings”. Damn you’re so cool!
    I would have never known! lol

    Bigot? Hardly! I think race is one of the lamest criteria for judging a person’s nature or character! There are good white people and bad white people. Honest blacks, dishonest blacks. Smart Indians, and some like Andy L. You can’t tell by race alone and only fools try. (And don’t worry, Andy, from what I can tell, you’re full blooded!)
    Proof on May 2, 2007 at 04:50 pm

    Proof, you’re so damn cool! Shit anyway!

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Proof, you’re such a bigot!

    No, you’re just such a joke!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    Joel, Mick, I must confess to having a special place in my heart for white racists.
    2H9

    Huh????!!!!!

  • Andy L

    Maybe the police should be alerted. Andy is crossing into that line.
    likwidshoe on April 30, 2007 at 10:38 pm

    Listen boy. You crossed that line long before I entered into the picture. Must really make you feel good, talking smut. Cloaked falsely. Superiority, ya, I’m so sure.

    If you want, why don’t you come over her, on the rez, and press charges?

  • Andy L

    Anyone who wants can play. Sure, you’re free to sit there and act the goat all you want. You have an audience. Take advantage.
    Sparkie Arbuckle on May 3, 2007 at 06:38 pm

    Hey, I’ve tried. Numerous times. None of you guys even care to debate. You couldn’t really debate an Indian Person reasonably anyway, because you refuse to listen.

  • Neiman

    There are only two possibilities.

    1. We are all racists to varying degrees, such erroneously called racism being a negative reaction to other racial groups or a positive reaction in favor of a racial group.

    2. Since among humans there is only one race – the human race, racism cannot exist unless one hates human beings in general.

    We all have negative reactions to other human beings and such responses to skin color, accent, gender, or beliefs can be used to classify other human beings as being part of a group we don’t feel comfortable being near or having interactions with them. But, unless there is a serious mental problem, usually what we call racism is simply intolerance of an incredibly long list of things that makes us uncomfortable about other individuals.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Andy L said, Listen boy. You crossed that line long before I entered into the picture. Must really make you feel good, talking smut. Cloaked falsely. Superiority, ya, I’m so sure.

    Then call the police. I’m sure they’d be really happy dealing with a false charge.

    If you want, why don’t you come over her, on the rez, and press charges?

    If you’re going to stay in your pen, there won’t be any problems. We just have to be sure that you’re not crazy. You’re already telling people to watch their backs and that there will be “lessons” coming. That’s crazy behavior and it’s coming from you.

  • Andy L

    What is this? The 3rd or 4th time you have whined about that sentence. You truly are lame. Not even rising to the level of pathetic. You are the one who intimated a widespread conspiracy to intimidate others into silence. I am certain there is a Federal law or 2 concerning that. Equally certain ND has a couple also.
    2Hotel9 on May 3, 2007 at 05:48 pm

    You sure? Hey, go right ahead. Let’s really make a national issue out of what you guys have done. I’m just waiting for the world to find out what’s been published in the Dakota Beacon! Don’t worry, it’s coming. sooner than you think.

  • 2Hotel9

    No over reaction. I just hate racists. Is that so difficult to understand?

  • 2Hotel9

    Leftards calling other people nannystaters. Now that is rich. Tell Chad and company we all said “Hy” and fuckoff.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Trolls. Feed. Not.

  • 2Hotel9

    Or perhaps he could just go to your old friends, the FBI.

    What is this? The 3rd or 4th time you have whined about that sentence. You truly are lame. Not even rising to the level of pathetic. You are the one who intimated a widespread conspiracy to intimidate others into silence. I am certain there is a Federal law or 2 concerning that. Equally certain ND has a couple also.

  • Andy L

    You’ve got your own language.
    likwidshoe on May 4, 2007 at 07:01 am

    What’s the matter, lik? Not used to real confrontation? You’re dealing with Indians now. We’ve been doing this for years. We don’t give up. We tackle conglomerates, big money interest groups, logging companies, etc. We fight for treaty rights, water rights, fishing rights. What makes you think we’re going to let this go?

    And, I know “rights” isn’t in your vocabulary. So, go ahead. Cut me down again. I’ll just get back up. Little boy.

  • Andy L

    Physician. Heal. Self.
    Proof on May 4, 2007 at 04:17 pm

    Is it helping? Let me know.

  • Just_Me

    From Webstr’s Dictionary

    HTTP://WWW.M-W.COM/DICTIONARY/RACISM

    Main Entry: rac•ism
    Pronunciation: ‘rA-”si-z&m also -”shi-
    Function: noun
    1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
    - rac•ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

    If Rob Port is and The Dakota Beacon supports racist ideology they would be unable to hide it. Over a million words have been printed in The Dakota Beacon magazine. Rob has written thousands of words in that magazine in likely tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands on this blog. Please review all that Rob has written on this blog and all of The Dakota Beacon magazines, available at:

    http://www.dakotabeacon.com/4dcgi/GetNews/30074/Issues

    Then, all of you racism accusers, sight a single incident of racism in all of these words.

    Racism is an irrational hatred. It cannot be hidden for long. Point out a single instance in all of these writings of racism, and perhaps your assertions of racism will be proven.

    Please consider doing something besides sitting around waiting to be offended by reality. Spend as much energy changing the mess that is the overwhelming condition on almost every Indian reservation in North America (and Canada for that matter), that you spend screaming about racism. Then, you might appear to be rational.

    We await you proof of racism. We will be compelled to consider you ignorant and accusatory without merit until that time. Good luck in your attempt. You will need it.

  • Just_Me

    According to Census 2000: 38.7 percent of non-white children lived in poverty; 44.2 percent of children living with single mothers lived in poverty; and 42.2 percent of children on American Indian reservations lived in poverty. -U.S. Census Bureau,Census 2000

    http://www.ndkidscount.org/publications/factbook/2006/summaryfindings/allsummaryfindings.pdf

  • Andy L

    No over reaction. I just hate racists. Is that so difficult to understand?
    2Hotel9 on May 3, 2007 at 03:46 am

    Self-hate? You better get some help!

  • Andy L

    No description is needed, andy. Anyone who has followed this thread can see it. As for all the hue&cry from the “indian” community, I can only find 5 of you in 3 different threads. And I do not include creasy or other commentors from the Native American community in your clique. You racists hang together. And your tone has become exceedingly conciliatory in the last 24 hours.
    Why would that be?
    2Hotel9 on May 5, 2007 at 11:44 am

    No, our tone hasn’t changed. Maybe yours has. Maybe you are finally seeing the light. But, you know what? I doubt it. Your still a racist pig. You’re still ignorant, and choose to stay that way, about Indian issues and concerns. Keep it up.

    And, you reference only 3 to 5, being racist on this blog? Tell me. Who exactly are they? And you are implying there are only a small number of people who are incensed? Hey, wake up. Reality beakons. We number in the thousands. We all see each other on a regular basis, we talk, we socialize. We aren’t only local either, come from all over the country, just like all of you cloaked marauders. Hey, you heard enough? You know what? Keep it up! You’re doing such a good job! KUDOS!

  • Andy L

    Hey! Question! What’s a nannystater and why do they keep calling Rob Port that at Bismarck Dems.com?

    It’s just a question, guys! I really don’t know what it is. Well, what is it?

  • 2Hotel9

    No description is needed, andy. Anyone who has followed this thread can see it. As for all the hue&cry from the “indian” community, I can only find 5 of you in 3 different threads. And I do not include creasy or other commentors from the Native American community in your clique. You racists hang together. And your tone has become exceedingly conciliatory in the last 24 hours.

    Why would that be?

  • Andy L

    Please consider doing something besides sitting around waiting to be offended by reality. Spend as much energy changing the mess that is the overwhelming condition on almost every Indian reservation in North America (and Canada for that matter), that you spend screaming about racism. Then, you might appear to be rational.
    We await you proof of racism. We will be compelled to consider you ignorant and accusatory without merit until that time. Good luck in your attempt. You will need it.
    Just_Me on May 5, 2007 at 10:03 am

    We don’t have to prove racism. Look at your own statement and explain to me how that statement alone is not racist. And go ahead, talk in circles. Defend your statement made by deflecting and attacking me for even mentioning that you may be a racist. Then, go about your way.

  • Andy L

    Andy Laverdure: A racist would have used the term “Indians” or “natives” rather than “you”. I was commenting on you and you alone. Talk about cognitive dissonance. You really must read more carefully.
    Just_Me on May 5, 2007 at 11:27 am

    Deflecting again. Go ahead, keep it up. You are so amusing. The only thing you are doing here is demonstrating how hopeless your case is. “Oh, Boo Hoo! I’m Just Me! Nothing else. I’m not a racist! I’ve never said anything derogatory about Indian People? My friends and associates have never, never said Indian women were WELFARE WHORES! We have never, never insinuated that those cute little Indian babies were BASTARDS! Why won’t they stop calling us racists and bigots? Why? Why Lord, why?”

    Have you been pegged? Maybe tagged?

  • Andy L

    Racism is an irrational hatred. It cannot be hidden for long.

    You are so right! Jeez. I never thought I’d be agreeing with you on this one. Look at all the insidious racism that has been uncovered and revealed by the traditional bloggers at this site. Good thing us Indians came along, we’ve done y’all a favor! We’ve revealed y’all for the racists that you really are. Thanks for the statement. Made my day!

  • Just_Me

    Please notice that Andy Laverdure has not attempted to find racism in any of the literature sighted above. Why do you suppose that is? Xene, did you find anything? Anything at all?

  • Andy L

    According to Census 2000: 38.7 percent of non-white children lived in poverty; 44.2 percent of children living with single mothers lived in poverty; and 42.2 percent of children on American Indian reservations lived in poverty. -U.S. Census Bureau,Census 2000

    And, your point is?

  • Andy L

    I just don’t like racists.
    2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 05:16 pm

    Self hatred? Take care Hotel. A clinical psychologist may be able to help!

  • Andy L

    Till then fuck off.
    2Hotel9 on May 2, 2007 at 04:37 pm

    back at ya, BOY!

  • 2Hotel9

    Back to thinly veiled threats, thats typical. Your little cadre trolling SA leaves me underwhelmed. As for the Native American community on a national level, you have done them no service. Morons spewing nannystate(like how I worked in your new word?), cradle to grave socialism are their worst enemies. And we know it.

    Congrats! You have succeeded, driving people who care about living and employment conditions on reservations away from your cause. You have created a far more negative impression than Rob’s article.

    Way to go, buddy. Later.

  • Andy L

    If Rob felt/feels like that, I apologize.

    Rae, there is no need to apologize on this thread to anybody, especially Rob. He is not a victim here. He’s the one that started the whole fiasco. He’s a grown man, he knew what he was doing. Don’t let him pull the wool over your eyes.

    Rob needs to retract his article in the Dakota Beacon and Steve Cates, publisher of the Dakota Beacon, need to retract also. Simple as that.

  • RaeMarie70

    Feeling like your threatened isn’t a good experience. If Rob felt/feels like that, I apologize. I do so not because I said anything threatening, but because I am part of a community who really are good people.

    This whole “appalling reservation” thing is unfair. Rob, and the rest of you, have the right to your opinion. Rob’s observations of the reservation were a slice of a large pie. I can imagine what an outsider might think when driving through parts of our reservation. But to categorize everyone into that one slice doesn’t do anybody any good. Saying it was done as a way of helping doesn’t help either. It is an excuse to write a derogatory piece about a group of people who struggle to improve their position every day. Others might disagree with me, but it is the truth. If it wasn’t true, then the school wouldn’t not be making the improvements that are being made. If there is disagreement, talk to any staff person who works there and find out the good things that are happening.

    Unfortunately or fortunately, whichever way you look at it, there are many different people posting their opinions here. There are a few bloggers who seem to thrive on being condescending and antagonistic without regard for what life is really like on the reservation. If you want to provoke people, this is certainly a way to get that accomplished. Making statements about how smart or dumb Indians are, referring to people as welfare queens and bastards, implying that Indians are lazy and expect things because they are Indian, and the rest of the garbage that has been said and implied is wrong. Even Indians are individuals. We each hold our own goals and dreams. But for most us, we would be willing to do just about anything to help one another to become successful and productive.

    At one point on the Redux thread, a question or statement was made about how to help. Many suggestions were given, but either they weren’t good enough or they were wrong. A comment was also made about how it was up to us (those from the reservation) to fix it because Rob and others did their part of helping by pointing out to the world that the reservations were indeed need of help. When stated that were making changes, the comeback was that it wasn’t fast enough. Every explanation we gave was an excuse, a denial, or we were playing the victim. If we are not doing enough, then what more are we supposed to be doing?

    Please continue to give your opinions, but don’t run us down for trying to make changes. To think that we would want our people to live in those conditions and be a people whose only goal is to “suck off the government’s tit” and aren’t doing anything about it, is crazy and unfair to those who work, tirelessly, to make changes.

  • 2Hotel9

    Oh, and andy? It is called the “INTERNET”. You might have heard of it.

  • 2Hotel9

    Lik, sorry. Multiple threads and all. It is possible. I just don’t like racists.

  • 2Hotel9

    Your pathetic metamorphosis is quite amusing. Tell us again how the Government owes you so much and how we have to watch our backs now. We never tire of that.

  • 2Hotel9

    You’ve posted nothing worth debate. You have proclaimed how proud you are to live on welfare and spewed a bunch of Marxist/Socialist bullshit. You have clearly illustrated your racism and fear of the outside world. And you have toddled about attempting to appear learned and savvy by googling and going through the archives here. That about sums you up.

  • Andy L

    As for the Native American community on a national level, you have done them no service.

    Hey, Hot! Why do you persist on generalizing like that? You are so condescending it makes me puke! If we are doing the Native American community on a national level a disservice, tell me how? And, since you seem to know so much, where are you getting your information from.

    Geez, Hot, can’t you do any better than that?

  • Andy L

    You’ve posted nothing worth debate. You have proclaimed how proud you are to live on welfare and spewed a bunch of Marxist/Socialist bullshit. You have clearly illustrated your racism and fear of the outside world. And you have toddled about attempting to appear learned and savvy by googling and going through the archives here. That about sums you up.
    2Hotel9 on May 4, 2007 at 02:04 pm

    Another Dean Crist! Hey, hot, who are you talking about when you say “you”? Which one of us has spewed Marxist or Socialist bullshit? Hey, were merely Indians, trying to live our lives in a good way. Don’t you get it? Toddle? You’re the toddler. When you finally understand Indian people, get back to me. Then maybe we can have a decent conversation. Jesus, Dean Crist II, you’re dysfunctional.

  • Andy L

    Lik, you’re the only one that spams around here! And, all the way from OHIO no less.

  • Andy L

    Please notice that Andy Laverdure has not attempted to find racism in any of the literature sighted above. Why do you suppose that is? Xene, did you find anything? Anything at all?
    Just_Me on May 5, 2007 at 11:19 am

    Keep deflecting. You are so amusing. Look at the comments all over the three Indian threads. Jeez, I shouldn’t have to do that for you. You’ve been cruising these threads and maknig insidious comments all the way through! Better yet, control F your own comments, there’s enough proof of racism there alone.

    Talking in circles. Great song!

  • Andy L

    Congrats! You have succeeded, driving people who care about living and employment conditions on reservations away from your cause. You have created a far more negative impression than Rob’s article.
    Way to go, buddy. Later.
    2Hotel9 on May 5, 2007 at 01:40 pm

    Like any of you ever cared about living conditions on our reservation. Look, I said it! Our reservation, got that?

    Look at our 1863 treaty and our 1892 agreement, read the terms, then come back and talk. OK?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    I am an Ogichidaa, and I am proud of my people. Statements like this show hate. It is time for those who have disagreed with the statements my brothers and sisters have made and call a racist a racist.

    The idea that if we disagree with you, then it must be because of racism is getting really old. It tells me that you’ve run out of argument and are now desperately adding charges instead of addressing the topics.

    I think that some of you are finding out that it doesn’t shut up people the way it used to. People used to clam up to avoid getting that baseless charge. Now they fight it.

  • 2Hotel9

    Dress it up and slap some lipstick on, skh, it is still the White Supremest soft sell. No better than the whiny, welfare crap from andy and xene. The obverse of the same racist coin.

  • Creasy

    Okay likwidshoe, you want to align yourself with a racist, be my guest.

    You accused me a couple posts ago of claiming those who disagree with me are racists:

    The idea that if we disagree with you, then it must be because of racism is getting really old.

    Well, your buddy skh.pcola said:

    If you believe that to be a racist statement, then I dub thee an ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority. Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whinging. You leftard multi-culti maroons are entirely predictable.

    I chose to disagree with that statement, because it is racist and because:

    I have an education….I have a Bachelor’s Degree.
    I have never taken drugs or even been drunk a day in my life.
    I do not whine or blame the past for the problems that plague my people today.
    I am where I am not because of my skin color or heritage, but who I am as a person.

    I have overcome obstacles in my life because of where I come from, raised on the reservation and because of my appearance. These obstacles were placed in front of me by others, not by my choice. This has everything to do with the treatment of my people in the past and nothing to do with me as a person.

    I have never blamed my problems that I encounter on what has taken place in the past. It seems like everyone else needs to get over that fact.

    I have succeeded in life, because of it, my children have it much better than I did growing up.

    An ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority.

    You can’t see the racism behind that, the only one you are fooling here is yourself.

    With the first amendment comment, when it was created, I don’t think they had freedom of speech in mind for those who are racist and want to spread their message of hate. I thought I made this pretty clear, I didn’t mention anything about letting the government decide what is racist and what isn’t, just the fact that protecting racist speech wasn’t the intent of freedom of speech.

  • Bat One

    I’m not trying to be flippant. But the Left’s trifecta of hate, Racist, Sexist, and Homophobe, have been thrown about with such careless abandon by those who simply can’t carry on an intelligent dispute, that the terms are for all practical purposes meaningless.

    Being called any one of those names is like being insulted by a four year-old. And anybody who resorts to this sort of lame name-calling should be pitied for their intellectual disability instead of respected for their opinions.

  • skh.pcola

    I stand by what I originally said. American Indians have long since passed the threshold of time whence they could righteously claim oppression and/or discrimination. The injuried parties are long since dead and buried, and the current crop of descendants are nothing but whiners, just like contemporary blacks. If you believe that to be a racist statement, then I dub thee an ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority. Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whinging. You leftard multi-culti maroons are entirely predictable.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Creasy said, Read the posting made by skh.pcola on May 9, 2007 at 10:05 pm.

    Tell me that it isn’t racist.

    It’s not. skh.pcola is talking about the dysfunction in both the Indian “community” (for lack of a better word) and the black community. In each case, those communities use the injustices of the past as an excuse for their failings of the present.

    I am sure those who created the first amendement didn’t have racist comments in mind under the protection that it provides.

    Why not? It’s not free speech just for speech that you agree with. Would you really want government bureaucrats deciding what is and what isn’t racist?

  • Creasy

    Rob:

    Are these the types of comments that this website was set-up for?

    the current crop of descendants are nothing but whiners, just like contemporary blacks. If you believe that to be a racist statement, then I dub thee an ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority. Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whinging. You leftard multi-culti maroons are entirely predictable.

    I have tried my best to keep it clean and debate the issues, but statements like this show real class.

    I am an Ogichidaa, and I am proud of my people. Statements like this show hate. It is time for those who have disagreed with the statements my brothers and sisters have made and call a racist a racist.

    If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck……

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    In this particular case much of the problem stems from the fact that the newcomers don’t realize that Rob’s point is that all government programs need to be cast aside if they don’t work.

    Of course the article was in response to a visit to teh reservation so that’s what he wrote about.

    So when the residents of TM came here they were already mad unwilling to see that Rob’s philosophy (and mine) cut across all races.

    And it would make some sense to look at where the government has been most intrusive into people’s lives for the longest. You’ll find that at the Indian Reservations.

  • Andy L

    Lik, How can you have any opinion on living conditions at Turtle Mountain? You’re from OHIO!

    Any Indians over there?

  • andy l

    How in the world can you say 2Hotel9 hates Indian People by identifying a group of people he thinks are their worst enemies? Wouldn’t you like to know who your true enemies are? Is that a characteristic of vehement hate? I don’t think so!
    Proof on May 6, 2007 at 09:03 pm

    That’s exactly what he implied. Learn to read Proof. Hot is implying Indian people are their own worst enemies because they live their lives as “cradle to grave” socialists! Now, where does he get that information? What a statement!

  • 2Hotel9

    Crease, I am in complete agreement with you on that. Lots of things in life I hate. Crappy ammunition, warm beer, racists. Not unnecessarily in that order.

    This is an open blog, as the name implies, say anything. Rob has a very open policy. It takes A LOT to get banned here. And insulting Rob ain’t on the list. We do that rather regularly, just ask Toot(The Whistler).

    Over the couple of years I have been coming here there have been some real hate filled scumbags who have spewed all over any and everybody. In the end they fade away. Catch any of us on a bad day and we tend to smack first and discuss later.

    Your readerblog posts are very good, I myself am not big on social welfare type programs, education being a pet peeve.

    One point that gets blurred here is direct address. Often, in heated exchanges, we direct comments in a general manner when they should be made to specific individuals. And when there are multiple commentors in a thread things get a bit confused, higgeldypiggeldy, as it were. But in the end we figure it out.

  • 2Hotel9

    Joel, through your blog you have the capability to delve into the White Supremist movement and answer these questions. Attacking the welfare mentality because it is socialist and damaging our country and society is vastly different from using veiled attacks against non-whites to further balkanize Americans.

    This is divide and conquer. Instead of a color blind society we are blinded by color. You can not swing a dead cat by the tail without hitting someone wailing about how downtrodden they are because of race. On all sides. This in the wealthiest, most diversified, and open society on the planet.

  • Creasy

    Thanks 2hotel9. Even though we probably don’t see eye to eye on many of the issues here on this blog, I am glad to see there are some people out there that can spot the difference between those who want to debate and those who want to hate.

    I hope that everyone here can agree that we are all passionate about the issues that mean something to each of us. Yeah, we all may not agree, but let’s be civil about it.

    By the way, I don’t think that those that disagree with me is a racist. I am smart enough to know that if someone disagrees, they just don’t see the issue like I do.

    I don’t try to use race or skin color as a means of judging another. I have dealt with those issues all of my life.

    The name implies SayAnything, but I am sure this website wasn’t intended to spew hate filled rantings. I am sure those who created the first amendement didn’t have racist comments in mind under the protection that it provides.

  • Andy L

    Trolls. Feed. Not.
    Proof on May 4, 2007 at 01:45 pm

    bigots. racists. misogynists. Feed. Not.

  • Andy L

    Rhode Island you say. Long way from good old North Dakota. This is the hearland sucker! Get a life.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    2H9, skh wrote:

    Another example of a member of an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor. Native Americans are no more oppressed than black Americans are, they just have their own “ghettos” to skulk about in. Screw them.
    skh.pcola on May 1, 2007 at 08:38 am
    ____________________________________________________
    Lik wrote:

    It’s not. skh.pcola is talking about the dysfunction in both the Indian “community” (for lack of a better word) and the black community. In each case, those communities use the injustices of the past as an excuse for their failings of the present.
    I am sure those who created the first amendment didn’t have racist comments in mind under the protection that it provides.
    Why not? It’s not free speech just for speech that you agree with. Would you really want government bureaucrats deciding what is and what isn’t racist?
    likwidshoe on May 10, 2007 at 09:23 pm

    __________________________________________________
    I stand by what I originally said. American Indians have long since passed the threshold of time whence they could righteously claim oppression and/or discrimination. The injured parties are long since dead and buried, and the current crop of descendants are nothing but whiners, just like contemporary blacks. If you believe that to be a racist statement, then I dub thee an ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority. Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whining. You leftard multi-culti maroons are entirely predictable.
    skh.pcola on May 9, 2007 at 09:05 pm

    ___________________________________________________
    ____ 2Hotel9 – I think you’re jumping the gun in regards to skh.pcola.
    likwidshoe on May 2, 2007 at 07:38 am
    ____________________________________________________________________________________

    I don’t know what your beef is 2H9. These comments are truthful and right on point.

    I haven’t seen any specific rebuttals from you to explain why you think skh.pcola is racist, only general hyperbole and exaggeration.

    skh.pcola talks about the unreasonable demands and whining of “entitlement classes”- which is a well known socialist mantra and something that you have opposed (as it should be) in this thread, as well as in countless others.

    As you wrote to Andy:

    “And when you stop spewing thinnnnly veiled socialist crap ameliorated with self-loathing and a nice shot victimological pity seeking someone here may actually consider talking with you, instead of at you.”

    At face value, this is exactly what skh is saying so why would you disagree and call him a racist?

    It’s important to have the courage of your convictions and not to (PC) waffle in the face of oratorical adversity ………

    I would like to understand the specifics of your argument with regard to what skh has written.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Okay likwidshoe, you want to align yourself with a racist, be my guest.

    Put away your delusions, just for a moment, and consider what I have said.

    You accused me a couple posts ago of claiming those who disagree with me are racists

    I didn’t accuse you of anything. I was speaking in general. And it looks like you’re living up to the accusation I never made.

    Well, your buddy skh.pcola said:

    Wait, he’s my buddy now? Grow the fuck up.

    I chose to disagree with that statement, because it is racist and because

    You fail to explain why it is racist. So far, all we have are your assertions.

    I have an education….I have a Bachelor’s Degree.

    Well, good for you! You broke free of the mold that so many other Indians have made for themselves. Nobody ever said that everybody was the same. (A point that a few can’t seem to get through their thick heads.)

    You can’t see the racism behind that, the only one you are fooling here is yourself.

    How is it racist again?

    With the first amendment comment, when it was created, I don’t think they had freedom of speech in mind for those who are racist and want to spread their message of hate.

    Egh, whatever. With people like you around, everybody stands a good chance of being accused of it.

    I thought I made this pretty clear, I didn’t mention anything about letting the government decide what is racist and what isn’t, just the fact that protecting racist speech wasn’t the intent of freedom of speech.

    You’re right. It is to protect all speech.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    With fraudulent accusations of racism, (PC) multi-culturalists have placed us in the position of having to prove a negative.

    Beyond factually refuting each false charge, which we have attempted to do, what else can be done?–Nothing!

    Any insistence on upholding the law or any resentment towards law breakers of the [entitlement class variety] is almost always met with false charges of racism and/or intolerance.

    When you can’t win on ideas, keep trumping false charges of racism, rich vs. poor, until you get enough people who don’t bother to investigate for themselves …

    This isn’t about race or civil rights anyway — race is just the left’s convenient weapon of choice. It’s about power and politics.

    If things keep going the way they are, it’s not unreasonable to believe that someday conservatives will deny their conservatism for fear of being branded as racists.

  • Andy L

    cradle to grave socialism are their worst enemies. And we know it.

    So, Hot, this is why you hate Indian People so vehemently?

  • Creasy

    the current crop of descendants are nothing but whiners, just like contemporary blacks.

    An ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority.

    There’s the racist comments. Plain and simple. Generalizes about my people, makes claims that are false.

    What makes you think I have to explain to you why this statement is racist? skh.pcola made a statement that I found offensive shouldn’t that be enough. But in the discussions we have had, that won’t be enough for you.

    Dress it up and call it what you want, likwidshoe. I just never thought you would stand up and defend racist comments.

    2hotel9 can see the racism, why can’t you?

    You can throw accusations at me, saying I’m deflecting…whatever. You’ve NEVER done that with you and your 2700+ comments on this site.

    You told me to Grow the fuck up, come on now, I haven’t used obscenities with you. Maybe I am not the one who needs to grow up.

    Resorting to using obcenities shows your lack of intellectual development. Real class old sport.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    Joel, through your blog you have the capability to delve into the White Supremist movement and answer these questions.
    ….using veiled attacks against non-whites to further balkanize Americans.
    2Hotel9 on May 11, 2007 at 06:29 am

    2h9
    I respect you and agree with many [if not most] of your comments. You say that “I” have the capability to answer these questions; I know I do. In fact, I’ve already answered them for myself long ago.

    I asked you to defend your charge of racism against skh.pnscla because I couldn’t find “any” evidence of racism in his comments and failed to see how they differed from your own comments.

    What was the “veiled” part and what was the racial “attack” part?

    So, you still haven’t answered my original question. I’d like to read your answer in your own words rather than being redirected to some bullshit white supremacist web-site.

    What’s clouding your judgment on this one?

    P.S. I don’t have a blog….and…here’s more victimology…by Paris Hilton of all people…

    The day after she was sentenced to 45 days in the slammer for violating her probation by driving with a suspended license, Hilton walked outside her house and told a gaggle of camerapeople,

    “I told the truth yesterday. I feel that I was treated unfairly.”

    Hilton called the sentence “both cruel and unwarranted” and added “I don’t deserve this.”

    Is there any racism for calling this bullshit for what it is?

  • Andy L

    Hey! Question! What’s a nannystater and why do they keep calling Rob Port that at Bismarck Dems.com?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    Read the posting made by skh.pcola on May 9, 2007 at 10:05 pm.

    Tell me that it isn’t racist.
    Creasy on May 10, 2007 at 08:54 pm

    It wasn’t racist…just accurate and truthful!

  • 2Hotel9

    And Just, thanks for the links.

  • Andy L

    docdave, Also, Minnesota is a P.L. 280 state. State and tribe share jx. Not so in ND.

  • 2Hotel9

    Joel, Mick, I must confess to having a special place in my heart for white racists. Call it a character flaw. I was taught from a very young age to consider such persons as primary targets for harassment and to disrupt their tiny little lives whenever such opportunity arises. A philosophy that has nearly landed my white-trash ass in jail a few times.

    andy, my, my, my but you’ve had a busy 4 hours. Did you check my profile? Want a hint? Western PA ain’t the only place I been in my life. And when you stop spewing thinnnnly veiled socialist crap ameliorated with self-loathing and a nice shot victimological pity seeking someone here may actually consider talking with you, instead of at you.

    Till then fuck off.

  • Creasy

    Likwidshoe:

    Funny, but those generalizations happen to be right. 63% unemployment, remember? High welfare and a sense of entitlement, remember? I guess those are just “racist” figures.

    You just love that figure: 63% unemployment. I am not unemployed, not on welfare. These do not apply to me. If racists want to turn them and generalize and lump everyone in, Go ahead.

    You find things to be offensive that aren’t offensive.

    There you go again, telling me what I feel or how I should feel.

    Instead of saying, “shouldn’t that be enough”, perhaps you should explain the why. I don’t know. That would make perfect sense and I feel stupid even explaining such a simple thing, but there you go.

    How are they racist again? You never explained!

    Like I said earlier, I don’t OWE you any explanation. It offends me as a Native American. Likwidshoe wants a detailed explanation of what constitues racism and why.

    I don’t owe you a damn thing.

    You try to lecture me on growing up, only to shoot yourself in the foot by making snippy little comments and banter such as: Haha!, Eh. Whatever, Uh huh, and my favorite Wah!

    Let’s be adults here and leave the childish remarks at the door.

  • Just_Me

    Andy Laverdure: A racist would have used the term “Indians” or “natives” rather than “you”. I was commenting on you and you alone. Talk about cognitive dissonance. You really must read more carefully.

  • Creasy

    Finally, to you Mr. Port…..if you have been threatened with personal harm that is very, very unfortunate. From the bottom of my heart, I hope that harm never comes to you.

    But, you are a grown man, you knew that publishing such an opinion piece would stir people up and anger a lot of people. If you thought that people were going to take the things that you chose to point out lying down, you are kidding yourself.

    Your opinion (I have ceased in calling it an article) was harsh, it stung a lot of people in how it was presented. I won’t get into the debate about hiding these problems or trying to fix them, comments and opinions have already been expressed.

    Nobody asked or made you write your opinion. You chose to write and in your own way thought you could help.

    I am in no way saying that those who have threatened you are justified in doing so. I am not siding with those who cross that line.

    However with that said, I do not feel sorry for you. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and should be responsible for the words they put out there.

  • Andy L

    I don’t know why you even try. You clearly can’t convey your message (if you even have a message) without profanities and incohesive rants. Calling someone a bigot doesn’t bring anyone over to your cause, especially when you don’t provide any examples of bigotry.

    Welcome! Where you from?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Andy L spams, Hey! Here’s a question for Lik, Rob, Whistler, Neiman, Robert…

    Dude, how many times are you going to spam this comment?

  • Andy L

    Robert P. It was the “outside world” that opened this can of worms. So be it.

  • Andy L

    Sparkie, let Lik defend himself. And…Where are you from? Let me guess…maybe later. lol

  • Andy L

    locationism

    Wow, good one. I’m impressed.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    2Hotel9 – I think you’re jumping the gun in regards to skh.pcola.

  • Andy L

    I REPEAT! ARE YOU LISTENING! YOU’RE FROM OHIO! AND YOU PROFESS TO BE SUCH AN EXPERT ON TURTLE MOUNTAINS!

    WHAT A FARCE! YOUR JUST A POOR LITTLE “RAVING” OHIO BOY!

  • http://bezufache.wordpress.com/ Bezu Fache

    That is part and parcel of the racist agenda

    I completely disagree with you…..it’s a statement of fact….You’re comment was a little bit too PC for me…still on the “A” team though….

  • Andy L

    Maybe the police should be alerted. Andy is crossing into that line.

    likwidshoe on April 30, 2007 at 10:38 pm

    The OHIO police?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    2H9
    “skh from Pensacola is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped.”

    You must have prior experience with skh from Pensacola This is the first comment of his that I’ve been privy to.

    The point: “an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor.” is the part that I agree with. SKH history aside, What is your opposition to that particular statement?

  • Creasy

    likwidshoe:

    Creasy, try being a white guy walking around the streets of Detroit. Try being a white guy walking around the streets of Hamtramck. Okay?

    You don’t get it because you are in the majority. Yeah, you might have been treated differently as a “white guy” walking down the streets of Detroit. I will give you that.

    But when you go to the mall or to work or wherever you choose to go you see people like you all over. I don’t.

    Again, I do not use this as an excuse or hate the world because of the treatment of my people in the past.

    Our worlds are completely different.

    I am done debating this with you. You will never see things from my view and I will never see things your way.

    If you want to debate other topics, fine. I am done wasting my time debating this particular subject.

    Oh yeah, don’t think I didn’t catch this lovely little comment.

    Then get your stupid assuming ass back here and tell me what it was like.

    Jackass.

    Let’s see….I am a Jackass and Stupid. Let’s be civil here, we can do without the personal attacks. Show some class.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Creasy assumes like an ass, I just realized that this particular debate is useless with you.

    You will never go through the things I have, been treated differently because of who you are and what you look like.

    Really? How did you come to this grand assumption?

    Creasy, try being a white guy walking around the streets of Detroit. Try being a white guy walking around the streets of Hamtramck. Okay? Then get your stupid assuming ass back here and tell me what it was like.

    Jackass.

  • Creasy

    likwidshoe, joel, bat one, whistler:

    I just realized that this particular debate is useless with you.

    You will never go through the things I have, been treated differently because of who you are and what you look like.

    I didn’t choose this and I don’t use it as a crutch or an excuse. I do not whine.

    When I was younger I thought of myself as a victim, but those days are over….

    I find myself feeling sorry for those who hate me or spew hate towards my people. But that’s not to say I won’t call them on it.

    I do what was taught to me by my father:

    “Don’t feel sorry for yourself and don’t use it as an excuse.

    The world is a tough place son, never let anyone get you down because they have a problem with who you are and what you represent.”

    Change the perceptions of your people by being a positive example.

    My people are proud, and I am proud of them.

    I have never claimed that the current problems my people face are because of the oppression in the past.

  • Creasy

    Since you won’t let it go likwidshoe (And I knew you wouldn’t): you said

    It didn’t go unnoticed that you can’t explain yourself. It’s so much easier to just say that you’re done, isn’t it?

    You want me to explain racism to you so bad, well I will give it a try.

    Here is the statement that I find offensive to my people.

    I will break it down.

    American Indians have long since passed the threshold of time whence they could righteously claim oppression and/or discrimination.

    What makes him the judge on when a culture can claim racism? That in itself is a racist comment. So according to the author, there is no such thing as racism, my people have exhausted their rights a long time ago. No rights, that cuts off all say a culture might have.

    the current crop of descendants are nothing but whiners, just like contemporary blacks.

    This is a generalization of every Native American. It goes to the heart of my people as a race. We are all whiners, every single Native American. This is not true, it is based on race. See the term Racism and Race? How they are related?

    If you believe that to be a racist statement, then I dub thee an ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority.

    The author himself is trying to deflect onto others. Trying to say that those who disagree will call him a racist are themselves ignorant, lazy, worthless, and a shifty minority. Again the author places all of my people into one generalized group. Placing every Native American as lazy and worthless.

    Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whinging.

    Not every Native American is on drugs, there are many of my people who have their education. The author lumps every Native American together based on race.

    You wanted me to explain racism to you.

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt as a person that you can make up your own mind on what racism is.

    Yet you continued to dog me about an answer…give me a definition…explain yourself…you didn’t explain…it is easier to say you are done…you can’t explain yourself.

    The posting above is your answer, take it or leave it.

  • Creasy

    Whistler:

    likwidshoe, joel, bat one, whistler:

    You will never go through the things I have, been treated differently because of who you are and what you look like.

    OK, maybe your name shouldn’t have been attached. We haven’t agreed in the past and I am sure we won’t see eye to eye on this issue.

    However, we can debate other topics and issues, I will be glad to do that with you if we agree to be civil.

  • Neiman

    Rob: It is a sad fact that in our world today civilized debate and honest differences of opinion easily generate hatred and violence among people of limited intellect, knowing they are incapable of countering your facts and opinions. So, they seeth and fester inside with the cancer of hate, and frustrated in their inability, their impotence, they resort like cowardly school yard bullies to making threats.

    Fortunately, most of those people making threats never take action, they are content if they can cause you to feel fear for yourself or your family; and thereby hopefully to cause you to be silent, thus giving them a cheap victory. Of course, it takes only one truly mentally unbalanced person to take direct violent action against you. Guerilla warfare, terrorist suicide/murder strikes or assassination’s pass for political debate in our modern world. Even the Left uses the courts and asinine things like ‘hate speech’ laws and the politics of personal destruction to silence those opposiing them; but to my mind it all amounts to the same thing, people of weak minds, absent facts or ideas trying to force their views on others, and that is more dangerous to our way of life than being attacked by an enemy during war.

    While it is tempting to say to hell with it, it’s just not worth it; if the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights is to prevail and have any meaning, it takes people of courage to refuse to be silenced, not big or important people, but average people willing to say I would rather die than give up my right to Free Speech. These people on the Reservations and/or having Native American blood have a right to oppose you, debate you, try and counter your views; but if the majority of the people on those reservations are not willing to denounce, condemn and resist anyone threatening violence, then they are just as guilty as those criminal, mental deviants making the threats.

    Lastly, remember this, as it is asbolutely true – bullies, those shooting off their big mouths making threats are cowards and will back off when they are convinced you are willing to stand your ground and engage in intelligent, civil dialogue with those of opposing views also behaving decently. Virtually every person in the political arena has to live with such threats, but how often do you hear of anyone carrying them out?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    On an unrelated note, 2Hotel9 just e-mailed me and informed me that he has some kind of case of “electronic flu”. He’ll be joining in here as soon as he figures out how to log back in.

  • Andy L

    Lik, How can you have any opinion on living conditions at Turtle Mountain? You’re from OHIO!

    Any Indians over there?

  • Creasy

    Read the posting made by skh.pcola on May 9, 2007 at 10:05 pm.

    Tell me that it isn’t racist.

    Read my postings likwidshoe, I have never said that if you disagree with my statements it must be because of racism. I have never called anyone on this blog racist until my comments about an hour ago.

    Even you, in all the times we have disagreed on this website, I have never called you a racist. Only tried to debate with you.

    This is what is asked of all who choose to participate.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Creasy said, You just love that figure: 63% unemployment. I am not unemployed, not on welfare. These do not apply to me.

    Ahh…but they apply to your “brothers and sisters”, as you call them. And no, I don’t “love that figure”. I find it deplorable.

    We were talking about generalizations, not you personally. I had brought up the 63% figure to show that the generalization was correct. Try to keep up Creasy.

    If racists want to turn them and generalize and lump everyone in, Go ahead.

    What are you talking about? 63% isn’t “everyone”. It’s 63%. Again, try to keep up Creasy.

    There you go again, telling me what I feel or how I should feel.

    Then tell us why it is offensive! And try to be truthful because the assumptions aren’t being bought here.

    By the way, where did I tell you what you feel or how you should feel? Show me please. I had only said that you’re finding things to be offensive that aren’t offensive. Don’t twist my words and tell me that I said something that I didn’t.

    Like I said earlier, I don’t OWE you any explanation. It offends me as a Native American.

    If you can’t even explain why you’re offended, then don’t expect anybody else to know that something would offend you. Simple as that. So you’re a Native American. Whooptee-do. What’s that have to do with why you’re offended? You don’t say.

    Likwidshoe wants a detailed explanation of what constitues racism and why.

    I just want your definition, since it is a bit different from the real definition.

    I don’t owe you a damn thing.

    You can’t even give us an explanation. Go ahead, now stomp your feet and cry about racism and then balk at explaining why you think something is racist. It’s looking to be obvious at this point that you don’t have an answer.

    You don’t get it because you are in the majority. Yeah, you might have been treated differently as a “white guy” walking down the streets of Detroit. I will give you that.

    A white guy (why the quotes?) is in the majority in Detroit? That’s funny!

    But when you go to the mall or to work or wherever you choose to go you see people like you all over. I don’t.

    More assumptions. Don’t you get tired of making these?

    I am done debating this with you. You will never see things from my view and I will never see things your way.

    Good. One of us is in reality. The other one insists on being a victim, despite protestations to the contrary. After all, it was you who said, “It offends me as a Native American.”

    OK, maybe your name shouldn’t have been attached.

    My name shouldn’t have been attached either. You assumed that all of us were one and the same. Isn’t that what you’re complaining about, even though only one of us (that would be you) is doing it?

  • Andy L

    Your pathetic metamorphosis is quite amusing. Tell us again how the Government owes you so much and how we have to watch our backs now. We never tire of that.
    2Hotel9 on May 5, 2007 at 11:20 am

    Hot. Who you talking to? All the Indians? Or just a select few. And, what pathetic metamorphosis? Please describe.

  • Creasy

    Like I said, I am done debating this with you. Get over it.

    Let’s agree to disagree. I will never see your points and you will never see mine.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    i’m somewhere in the neighborhood of 130-40 gigs of tunes.

    Damn dude! 107 here. 56.9 is all kinds of electronica and a folder with 14.7 gigs of Detroit’s electronica.

    Btw, I don’t like that word, “electronica”. But it’s the best word to encompass the ambient, techno, house, jungle/dnb, experimental, electro, minimal, etc, etc, etc…

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Thanks Sparkie. I’ll add those tunes into my growing collection.

  • Creasy

    Likwidshoe:

    You twist and flip flop so much, You contradict yourself in different postings:

    I said the comment from skh.pcola in question generalizes about my people

    Then you said:

    Funny, but those generalizations happen to be right. 63% unemployment, remember? High welfare and a sense of entitlement, remember? I guess those are just “racist” figures.
    We were talking about generalizations, not you personally. I had brought up the 63% figure to show that the generalization was correct. Try to keep up Creasy

    Next comment from likwidshoe:

    What are you talking about? 63% isn’t “everyone”.

    You are right, it isn’t everyone, but your basis for defending skh.pcola is this:

    It’s not. skh.pcola is talking about the dysfunction in both the Indian “community” (for lack of a better word) and the black community. In each case, those communities use the injustices of the past as an excuse for their failings of the present.

    You are lumping everyone together, every Native American and every African-American. You say community, meaning everyone.

    Community: a group of people with a common religion, race, or profession. A society of individuals from a common culture.

    I am keeping up, you seem to be the one who can’t keep up with your own contradicting comments.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Like I said, I am done debating this with you.

    Then why are you still here? Seems kind of dumb to proclaim that you’re done with a conversation and then to pop in again and tell people that you’re done. It’s as if you’re adamant in destroying your own word. Weird!

    Get over it.

    Get over what? What is there to get over? Why did you say this?

    Let’s agree to disagree. I will never see your points and you will never see mine.

    I’m glad you have an open mind.

    It didn’t go unnoticed that you can’t explain yourself. It’s so much easier to just say that you’re done, isn’t it? Bye Creasy!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Creasy asserts, There’s the racist comments. Plain and simple. Generalizes about my people, makes claims that are false.

    Funny, but those generalizations happen to be right. 63% unemployment, remember? High welfare and a sense of entitlement, remember? I guess those are just “racist” figures.

    What makes you think I have to explain to you why this statement is racist? skh.pcola made a statement that I found offensive shouldn’t that be enough. But in the discussions we have had, that won’t be enough for you.

    You find things to be offensive that aren’t offensive. You manufacture it and then expect us to tip-toe around your sensibilities. Some of us aren’t having it and that upsets you.

    Instead of saying, “shouldn’t that be enough”, perhaps you should explain the why. I don’t know. That would make perfect sense and I feel stupid even explaining such a simple thing, but there you go.

    Dress it up and call it what you want, likwidshoe. I just never thought you would stand up and defend racist comments.

    How are they racist again? You never explained!

    2hotel9 can see the racism, why can’t you?

    Funny, but he hasn’t explained either. Why is that?

    You can throw accusations at me, saying I’m deflecting…whatever. You’ve NEVER done that with you and your 2700+ comments on this site.

    Haha! You’re deflecting again. Too funny.

    You told me to Grow the fuck up, come on now, I haven’t used obscenities with you. Maybe I am not the one who needs to grow up.

    Right…throwing around racism accusations just like the rest of “your people” have done isn’t an indication of needing to grow up. Uh huh.

    Resorting to using obcenities shows your lack of intellectual development. Real class old sport.

    Eh. Whatever. This is coming from the same person who glibly throws around racism accusations? Yeah, thought so.

    So you were saying? Oh – right. A whole lot of nothing. But your feelings are hurt and that should be enough so why isn’t it! Wah.

    Like I said – grow up Creasy.

  • Creasy

    Shoe-

    No wonder it is so hard to talk with you.

    Well, talking with you is no parade down mainstreet. In some ways you are open and can debate, other times you are blind to new things.

    You keep saying you want my definition of racism, I think it is pretty evident in my comments. But here it is in a nutshell:

    Saying that there is 63% unemployment rate on the reservation. Then calling all Native Americans lazy, ignorant worthless and lazy. Racism. Lumping them all together.

    Maybe using the term generalization isn’t the best way to say it.

    I really mean that saying one statement and applying it to all Native Americans is wrong and racist. It exposes the author’s own bias and racist tendencies.

    Yeah, there have been Native Americans that have come on this website that provoked arguments. There have been others that aren’t Native American that provoked arguements as well.

    But to say that everyone of us has done that is wrong. I want to debate, I want to present my side.

    Don’t you do the same thing every time you reference your “brothers and sisters” and “your people”? Come on. You complain about it and then turn around and do it yourself. Hypocrisy much?

    No I don’t do the same thing when I reference other Native Americans. I do not throw 63% in their faces. I don’t say Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whinging. when I reference them. Besides I am part of the Native American culture.

    This is what you don’t understand, when I reference them, it is not to put them down or cast a negative blanket statement and try to apply it to them all.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Creasy said, Since you won’t let it go likwidshoe (And I knew you wouldn’t)

    You keep on saying that. Let what go? If you don’t want to discuss these things, then don’t. The one who needs to let go (if it bothers you so much) is you.

    You want me to explain racism to you so bad, well I will give it a try.

    You’re being dishonest here. I don’t want to you to explain racism as I already know what it is. I want to know what you think it is.

    What makes him the judge on when a culture can claim racism? That in itself is a racist comment. So according to the author, there is no such thing as racism, my people have exhausted their rights a long time ago. No rights, that cuts off all say a culture might have.

    Okay, I can see your point here. Thanks for the explanation. I don’t agree that it equals racism or that he meant that there is no such thing as racism present, but I better understand where you’re coming from.

    This is a generalization of every Native American. It goes to the heart of my people as a race.

    I would argue that it goes to the heart of “your people” as far as how they have acted. That most of the Indians are unemployed and the reservations have serious problems with things like drugs and gangs? Blame racism. We’ve seen that time and time again in this thread and others.

    We are all whiners, every single Native American. This is not true, it is based on race.

    No, it is based upon how people have acted. If you insist on putting yourselves into a group that you yourself differentiate based on race, don’t get surprised when people look at the group and make some observations.

    Again the author places all of my people into one generalized group.

    Don’t you do the same thing every time you reference your “brothers and sisters” and “your people”? Come on. You complain about it and then turn around and do it yourself. Hypocrisy much?

    Not every Native American is on drugs, there are many of my people who have their education. The author lumps every Native American together based on race.

    I see that you still don’t understand that generalization concept.

    You wanted me to explain racism to you.

    No I didn’t. Please be a bit more honest in your responses. I’ve already explained that I wanted your definition.

    You twist and flip flop so much, You contradict yourself in different postings

    There’s no contradiction if you understand the concept of generalizations and how they explain larger truths, but that larger truth doesn’t necessarily apply to ALL. If it did apply to all, there wouldn’t be any need for generalizations.

    You are lumping everyone together, every Native American and every African-American. You say community, meaning everyone.

    Oh. So now we have you, once again, telling me what I meant instead of taking the words at their literal meanings.

    No wonder it is so hard to talk with you.

    I am keeping up, you seem to be the one who can’t keep up with your own contradicting comments.

    What contradicting comments? Oh,..that’s right. The ones where you take other meanings other than what is actually posted. Gotcha.

    Once again, it doesn’t matter what I actually say; you’ll just take whatever meaning you want from it.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Btw Sparkie, if you check out my collection and see something that you like, I’ll either point you into the correct direction so that you can download it or I’ll upload it into one of the file sharing sites. I haven’t gotten all of my electronica albums into that database yet, but it’s close to being complete. Just let me know and I’ll hook you up.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Sparkie Arbuckle – in terms of albums, I have…

    Tosca – 1. Chocolate Elvis; 2. Dehli9; 3. Different Tastes of Honey; 4. Fuck Dub; 5. j.a.c.; 6. Opera; 7. Suzuki; 8. Suzuki in dub

    The Orb – 1. Cydonia; 2. Orbus Terrarum; 3. Unidentified Frequencies of Orb

    You can easily find all of these with Bittorrent, as I have done recently. Here’s all of the Tosca albums. That torrent is where I got mine and is good quality.

    T-Polar – 1. Red Machine; 2. Tonal Soul EP; 3. Boobcube EP; 4. Procession; 5. citezen lp; 6. presents.. sidney crawford – s-tracks ep

    I’m pretty sure that all of these are still available at various netlabels.

  • robert108

    Sparkie: I’m also a blues fan. I know it’s difficult, but if you had to pick your five favorite blues tunes, what would they be? Just curious.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    So according to the author,[skh.pnscla] there is no such thing as racism, my people have exhausted their rights a long time ago. No rights, that cuts off all say a culture might have.
    creasy

    What a bunch of silly-assed emotional bullshit!!!

    Here’s what skh wrote:
    ====================================================
    Another example of a member of an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor.

    Native Americans are no more oppressed than black Americans are, they just have their own “ghettos” to skulk about in. Screw them.

    I stand by what I originally said. American Indians have long since passed the threshold of time whence they could righteously claim oppression and/or discrimination.

    The injuried parties are long since dead and buried, and the current crop of descendants are nothing but whiners, just like contemporary blacks. If you believe that to be a racist statement, then I dub thee an ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority. Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whinging. You leftard multi-culti maroons are entirely predictable.
    skh.pcola on May 9, 2007 at 09:05 pm

    ====================================================

    Creasy misrepresents and twists the truth; a common leftist tactic. The “author did not say:

    1)there is no such thing as racism as you
    [creasy] assert. That’s a complete fabrication by you. Perhaps you were again, so overwhelmed by…..“FEELINGS”
    [insert melancholy violin music here]that you can’t see what’s right in front of you.

    SKH did not say:

    2) that your people have “exhausted their rights” as you [creasy] claim. That’s another concoction by you based on…..“FEELINGS”

    SKH did not say:

    3)That your people have “no rights” as you [creasy] allege. This is another fictitious figment of your emotional imagination.
    SKH did not say:

    4) [to]“cut off all say a culture might have”

    He did say your ancestors were oppressed. He did say that Native Americans are no more oppressed that Black Americans. He said Native Americans have “passed the threshold of time whence they could righteously claim oppression or discrimination” not that you didn’t have any rights!!!!

    And speaking to those [including non-Indians like 2H9] who called him a racist for expressing these views he said:

    “If you believe that to be a racist statement, then I dub thee an ignorant, lazy, worthless, shifty minority.” The key words here being….“IF” and “you”

    Why is important to oppose an ideology like creasy’s and the others who have posted similar comments on this and other threads?

    Because now, people whose “FEELINGS” have been hurt, can ruin your life and get you thrown in jail based on solely on their own [mis]perception of reality…no matter how faulty or skewed.

    I.E.

    Yesterday, the House of Representatives passed a new hate crimes bill that will add gender and sexual orientation to the categories.

    Hate crimes under current federal law apply to acts of violence against individuals on the basis of race, religion, color, or national original.

    Federal prosecutors have jurisdiction only if the victim is engaged in a specific federally protected activity such as voting.

    The House bill would extend the hate crimes category to include sexual orientation, gender, gender identity or disability and give federal authorities greater leeway to participate in hate crimes investigations. It approves $10 million over the next two years to help local law enforcement officials cover the cost of hate crimes prosecutions.

    Federal investigators could step in if local authorities are unwilling or unable to act.

    This is just the kind of shit that people like creasy are angling for!!!!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    As for calling Indians lazy or worthless, you said that. Not me.

    Creasy was referencing this comment made by skh.pcola.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    skh.pcola made a statement that I found offensive shouldn’t that be enough.
    creasy

    Hell no that’s not enough…”feeling” offended is not an adequate reason to charge racism! Personal feeling is NOT enough!

    Many people have stopped looking to external sources of moral standards in order to decide what is right and wrong.

    The great majority — have looked elsewhere for moral and social guidelines.

    For many millions in the twentieth century, those guidelines were provided by Marxism, Communism, Fascism or Nazism.

    For many millions today, those guidelines are .. feelings. [insert sad violin music here]

    With the ascendancy of leftist values personal feelings have supplanted universal standards.

    In fact, feelings are the major unifying characteristic among contemporary liberal positions.

    And when “feelings” supplant universal standards then opinion starts getting accepted as fact and perception soon becomes reality, at least for those who share these opinions and cling to the resulting perceptions.

    Herein lies the reason for the division in America today and unless we make a concerted effort to separate perception from reality, opinion from fact, fiction from truth,feelings from universal standards, that division will continue.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    And while we’re at it, we might as well give Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington back to the Paiute, Shoshoni, Hopi, Pima, Yaqui, Tepehuan, Rarámuri (Tarahumara), Kiowas and Mayas.

    The myth of Aztlan can best be explained by California’s Santa Barbara School District’s Chicano Studies textbook, “The Mexican American Heritage” by East Los Angeles high school teacher Carlos Jimenez.

    On page 84 there is a redrawn map of Mexico and the United States, showing Mexico with a full one-third more territory, all of it taken back from the United States.

    On page 107, it says “Latinos are now realizing that the power to control Aztlan may once again be in their hands.”

    Shown are the “repatriated” eight or nine states including Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington.

    According to the school text, Mexico is supposed to regain these territories as they rightly belong to the “mythical” homeland of Aztlan.

    On page 86, it says “…a free-trade agreement…promises…if Mexico is to allow the U.S. to invest in Mexico…then Mexico should…be allowed to freely export…Mexican labor.

    Obviously this would mean a re-evaluation of the border between the two countries as we know it today.”

    Jimenez’s Aztlan myth is further amplified at MEChA club meetings held at Santa Barbara Public Schools..

    The book, paid for by American tax payers, cites no references or footnotes, leaving school children totally dependent on their teacher to separate fact from opinion and political propaganda.

    The book teaches separatism, victimization, nationalism, completely lacks patriotism towards the United States, and promotes an open border policy.

    The book is 100 percent editorial — the opinions of the author.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    Anti-Irish racism includes persecution, discrimination, hatred or fear of the Irish as an ethnic or national group, whether directed against Ireland in general or against Irish immigrants and their descendants in the diaspora.

    The term also applies to the religious persecution of Irish Roman Catholics.

    Nineteenth century Protestant American “Nativist” prejudice against Irish Catholics reached a peak in the mid-1850s with the Know Nothing Movement, which tried to oust Catholics from public office.

    It was common for Irish people to be discriminated against in social situations, and intermarriage between Catholics and Protestants was uncommon.

    One response to this prejudice was the creation of a parochial school system, in addition to numerous colleges, that isolated about half the Irish youth from the public schools.

    After 1860 many Irish sang songs about signs reading “HELP WANTED – NO IRISH NEED APPLY”; these signs came to be known as “NINA signs.” These songs had a deep impact on the Irish sense of discrimination.

    JOKE:

    Why did God invent whiskey?
    So the Irish would never rule the world.

    I’m Irish-Catholic—-boo fucking Hoo….

  • 2Hotel9

    Joel, you are making my point. Thanks. skh from Pensacola is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. andy L from Minot is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. Carlos Jimenez is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. Jesse Jackson is a racist piece of crap and needs thumped. Allowing them, collectively, to spew their racist crap and to give it legitimacy in any form whatsoever is against every principle This nation was founded on. There can be no discussion or debate with racist pieces of crap. Talking to them is a complete waste of time, no matter what flavor they are.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    Another example of a member of an entitlement class riding on the long, musty coattails of a long-dead, oppressed ancestor. Native Americans are no more oppressed than black Americans are, they just have their own “ghettos” to skulk about in. Screw them.
    skh.pcola on May 1, 2007 at 08:38 am

    As much as it irks me I must agree with RonWa’s second point. skh in Pensacola does need thumped. His racism is just as reprehensible as andy L and his crowd’s is.
    2Hotel9 on May 1, 2007 at 01:27 pm

    Sorry 2, There’s nothing racist about that comment…it’s right on point!

    “Forty acres and a mule” …..Reparations for slavery is a movement in the United States, which suggests that the government apologize to slave descendants for their hardships, and bestow on them reparations, whether it be in the form of money, land, or other goods.

    The only thing that would give the idea of reparations for slavery even the appearance of rationality is an assumption of collective guilt, passed down from generation to generation. But, if we start operating on the principle that people alive today are responsible for what their ancestors did in centuries past, we will be adopting a principle that can tear any society apart, especially a multi-ethnic society like the United States.

    Even if we were willing to go down that dangerous road, the facts of history do not square with the demand for reparations. Millions of immigrants arrived in this country from Europe, Asia and Latin America after slavery was over. Are their descendants guilty too and expected to pay out hard cash to redeem themselves?

    Even during the era of slavery, most white people owned no slaves. Are their descendants supposed to pay for the descendants of those who did?

    Just ask the residents of western New York towns like Chittenango, Seneca Falls, and Springport, where as many as 90,000 upstate landowners, joining many others in Connecticut and other states, have seen the titles to their properties clouded by the revival of Indian land claims once thought extinguished in the earliest years of the republic.

    Yet though these landowners have compelling stories to tell–they include, for example, farmers unable to clear title to land that has been in their family for two centuries–few of our elite legal institutions seem much interested in their plight.

    The Indian land-claims debacle offers a sobering preview of the havoc that slave-reparations claims might soon visit on American society as a whole.

  • andy l

    I’m Irish-Catholic—-boo fucking Hoo….
    Joel on May 12, 2007 at 03:17 am

    Don’t cry little doggie. What a pity! We didn’t realize how hard your life was…damn!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Andy L
    What the eff does where I’m from matter? I don’t abuse hard drugs (soft ones sometimes), liquor, or recieve any government assitance at all. If I did and someone pointed that out, I wouldn’t be offended that the truth is coming out…
    About the longhouse comment. I know they are cool. I know they are a northeastern native american phenomenon. It was a joke. I was being an ass… like you!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    I’m not quitting. Just feeling like this isn’t as fun as it once was.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Andy L
    Dude. C’mon! What are you trying to achieve here? On another note, I didn’t know you guys had internet connections in the longhouses! That’s so cool! Also, most people around here like Lik – he’s not an asshole troll. I feel that an improved attitude and slightly more productive posts would earn you a bit more respect and would earn your comments a bit more consideration. I’m just sayin.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Andy L
    Born in upstate ny – lockport. Raised in vt. Now in ri. Soon in pa. Also, my criminal record includes about 5 or 6 underaged drinking charges. punk.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    None of you guys even care to debate.

    Oh yea. We never debate anything around here.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Andy
    This is a form of discourse in a free country. Lets not harm each other or make threats. Name calling is in bounds, but threats are a sensitive and inappropriate thing. You aren’t being censored – that’s generous at this point. Why don’t you take advantage of it like all of us do – presenting our respective cases? We also scoff at idiots. Its fun. Anyone who wants can play. Sure, you’re free to sit there and act the goat all you want. You have an audience. Take advantage.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    mine is a few genres. blues (as opposed to rock), electronic (mostly downtempo, dub, jungle, ragga), jazz, hiphop, and lots of unclassifiable. i got a bunch of tortoise, and weird electro/experimental/rock/improv. the former members of ‘king crimson’ have been doing some bizarro stuff i’m liking. most people think its unlistenable. i got some post-punk trip hop and a bunch of other random stuff. dub, dancehall, jamaican ‘sound clash’ bootlegs… the girl likes opera. she goes for the downtempo/trip-hop too though.

    as far as that ‘low in the sky’ – their older album and that satillo and the piano overlords are some of my fav downtempo/triphop stuff. for lazy days or reading (no lyrics and not disturbing).

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    lik
    i’m somewhere in the neighborhood of 130-40 gigs of tunes. excluding the vinyl that i haven’t digitized (about 20% digitized so far) yet. yeehaw.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    Lik
    off topic, but
    download some of this stuff. I recommend ‘Low in the Sky’ (both albums) and ‘this is pattern based’ – these guys make quality downtempo. also this and this too. both mellow and among some of my favs. good ‘recreation’ tunes.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    lik

    I’ll either point you into the correct direction so that you can download it or I’ll upload it into one of the file sharing sites

    tosca, the orb, t polar, OR (preferrably) just something random that’s highly recommended. you can always reach me on email: cryptodragon@hotmail.com

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/sparkiearbuckle sayanything-81

    r108
    My favorite blues would have to include Hubert Sumlin (amazing – maybe i’ll upload a sample track when i get up in the morning… its late in the eastern time zone), Hounddog Taylor, Butterfield Blues Band, Louisiana Red, Hooker and Canned Heat, Albert Collins, Junior Wells, Otis Rush, Robert Cray, and just about anything rockin, gritty and earnest.

    I really like Django Reinhardt, Grapelli, and the lot – gypsy jazz.

    I also highly recommend Jimmy Smith. Jazz that most will thoroughly enjoy.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Creasy was referencing this comment made by skh.pcola.

    Ah, ok then. My bad.

    These threads are getting so long they’re hard to follow.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Creasy,

    Saying that there is 63% unemployment rate on the reservation. Then calling all Native Americans lazy, ignorant worthless and lazy. Racism. Lumping them all together.

    But the 63% unemployment is a fact. It may not be that number now (it’s a figure that’s about a year old), but I’d be willing to bet that unemployment is over 50%.

    As for calling Indians lazy or worthless, you said that. Not me. I’ve never once said any such thing, and if you disagree I challenge you to quote me where I have.

    No I don’t do the same thing when I reference other Native Americans. I do not throw 63% in their faces. I don’t say Get an education, quit it with the drugs, and quit the got dam whinging. when I reference them.

    Maybe you should. Which isn’t to imply that all Native Americans need that message, but clearly many do.

    After all, what’s so bad about telling people to get educated? And to quit doing drugs? And to quit blaming others for their problems?

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