What The President Should Say About The “Leak”
What the President should say about the “Libby” leak via Kathryn Jean Lopez:
“After the horrific attack on America on September 11, I, as your Commander-In-Chief, vowed to do all in my power to prevent another attack on American soil. I remain steadfast in my resolve to do so. After reviewing the analysis of our top intelligence experts and those from other allied nations, in 2002, I made the decision to declassify portions of the National Intelligence Estimate to allow all Americans to view the same evidence that was being presented to me regarding the potential dangers and threats facing our nation. As your President, I believed that it was extremely important for Americans to understand that our enemies were not limited to simply Al Qaeda. Make no mistake, this was and continues to be a global war on terror and it essential that everyone recognize that.”
Exactly.
Tags: Dennis Walaker, Domestic Issues, Red River Flood
The Norwegian Blue likes to kip on its back, I believe.
"… but I assumed with a name like that he must be a crackerjack at whatever he does."
MikeA,
The thought occurred to me as well when I saw the two comments posted almost simultaneously. As did an old cliche a griend of mine used to quote about great minds and gutters. However, I assume you did not take offense at my "insult" of your namesake.
To adopt Michael’s hatestyle for a moment: During the bombing of Germany, the US bombed during the day, when they could bomb more accurately, even though it was far more dangerous, while the British, quivering in fear, bombed at night, because it was safer.
diane/Michael: Calling your wild paranoid fantasies "fantasies" is not an attack. There is no substantive reply to fantasies such as yours. I’m simply stating the truth. The "LSD" was a bit of tongue-in-cheek. Sense of humor? I can’t remember any post from diane that was not hateful. Your hate just comes back at you, per Newton’s Third Law of Motion.
"The U.S. admits it would be five years at least before Iran would have even a limited nuclear weapon, one that would have no way of reaching the U.S. itself. On the other hand, as you point out, there is North Korea, who already has a nuclear weapon.”
Diane,
While I am aware of that particular estimate, I was unaware that it has been adopted by the US as some sort of formal or authoritative timetable from whixh we can safely base our policy options. Perhaps you’d be good enough to provide a citation to that effect?
I do know that there are numerous estimates floating about, from one year to five at the outside, but then its that fact that we really don’t know that is so troubling… at least for those of us who view the notion of the world’s biggest supporter of Islamist terror in possession of nuclear weapons as troubling.
You, on the other hand, seem more focused on your own partisan indignation and your obvious relish in calling into question the religious beliefs of those whose ideas you oppose, without troubling yourself to actually address the questions at hand. Are you prepared to assume that a nuclear-armed Iran is not a threat to American interests (including, of course, Israel) and can you actually defend such a position, or are you willing to offer some alternative suggestion to the use of force to preclude a nuclear Iran?
There is, of course, a third option. Namely, that you are enjoying your adolescent temper tantrum far too much to engage in any sort of serious discussion of the underlying issue here, preferring instead to let someone else do the heavy lifting for you, both rhetorically and intellectually here, and militarily across the globe. It certainly wouldn’t be much of a surprise if that’s the case. But at least you’d have an awful lot of feather-headed, intellectually inconsequential company there on the Left.
No Rob, Bush used classified information merely to settle a score. Then after he’s already done that, we have Hadley out there trying to get the same report declassified quickly. And Rob, please enlighten me as to what lies he was counterracting from Wilson. This is what Nixon was doing as well,
"This is what has got you really upset, the fact that the President wouldn’t sit still for the smear job Wilson was aiming at him." That was Nixon’s attitude as well.
Michael,
Having reviewed your site, and that of the so-called "Matthew 23 Ministries" I can only conclude that it is you, and those with whom you commune, who are the ones "using God" as you have so profanely accused Mr. Bush of doing, to foster your own political point of view.
I find of particularly interest your site’s "Buy Blue" meter, evaluating companies, such as advertisers, donors, and sponsors based on their financial contributions to Democrats.
So tell us, Michael… have you heard the one about Jesus and the money changers in the Temple?
It wouldn’t hurt to remind yourself, Michael, that there is an enormous difference between righteousness, a truly worthy goal for each of us, and self-righteousness, such as you display so cavalierly here.
Iran Is Judged 10 Years From Nuclear BombU.S. Intelligence Review Contrasts With Administration Statements
By Dafna Linzerhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/01/AR2005080101453.htmlWashington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 2, 2005; Page A01
A major U.S. intelligence review has projected that Iran is about a decade away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon, roughly doubling the previous estimate of five years, according to government sources with firsthand knowledge of the new analysis
Wow! Sure am glad that’s not my bandwidth you’ve wasted with all that gratuitous cut and paste.
diane: As usual, while perpetrating hatred, you pose as a victim.
Michael: Hijack: to change the direction of a thread to push your own agenda. This thread isn’t about your pathological hatred of our President; you successfully hijacked it.
GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out. Your reasoning on everything you have so far discussed on this blog.
MikeAdamson said on April 9th, 2006, Bat One…an NIE from last year indicated 10 years away. This post from the Belgravia Dispatch identifies a variety of opinions.
Update: November 20th, 2008: Iran said to have enough nuclear fuel for one weapon.
Well you’ve got a point Claxtone, but I consider I’m doing a public service in giving them an opportunity of hearing the truth. Some will learn from it, others will continue to live in denial. I daresay a high proportion of these people who are inbred hillbillies who have never even left their county leave alone state and have no idea what the real world is all about.
Bush is a proven liar, why do these people still try and defend him and repeat his lies like a flock of parrots?
To the girl with the gun in the photo here LOL (Likwidshoe): Rather than criticizing what I say, why don’t you tell me what in it was incorrect?
To Bat One: Let me explain: "Never again" referred to 2004. Sorry, I’ll try to be more clear in the future for those who need that.
Well that was a list of UN Resolutions vetoed by the USA, didn’t some out too well, but I think it confirms the view that the USA is hardly a force for good in the world.
Diane, the number of dead civilians is closer to 35,000, most of those from insurgents. Many of these insurgents in turn are part of the former brutal regime responsible for approximately 100,000 civilian deaths per under Saddam’s rule (many from malnutrition and disease associated with the incompetence of the former regime). I think that iraqbodycount.net, not exactly a pro-Bush site, is the most reliable source of facts.
The 100,000 number was arrived at by averaging two extreme numbers (one around 10,000, the other over 200,000). That’s such bad science, it’s not even wrong.
Secondly, we spend far more on entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and most of our recent increases in national budget come from these programs rather than the military (or for the much aligned "pork" for that matter). So currently we are in no danger of our entitlement programs whittling away.
Third, if you want to mention the children killed, why not bring up the thousands of Shiite children deliberately targeted and pointlessly murdered by Sunni Arab insurgents, who frankly never had a chance of accomplishing anything from the innocent blood they have spilled except the fracturing of Iraq, and the isolation of the Sunni Arabs into a resource poor region of Iraq.
Fourth, I am skeptical that the International Criminal Court will amount to anything if it starts out with politically motivated trials. Not like it has any teeth in any case, because the EU has little real power compared to the US.
Power in this world is still based on both military and economic might. Economically, the US represents 25% of the worlds economic capacity, with less than 5% of the world’s population. People talk about the success of the Chinese economy…while ignoring that the US economy grows by roughly one Chinese economy per year.
If you compare per capita indicators, you find that in most important ones (economic productivity, income, R&D investment) that the US is about 25 years ahead of the EU… with the trend being a increasing separation between US and EU performance.
At the moment, there is nobody, including the Chinese, who have even remotely the military capacity of the US. This is not just the amount spent, though we do spend per capita far more than Europe. Europe has little left of its former military capacity, as it has gone further and further down the road to socialism. At the moment, Europe totally depends on the US to project any meaningful military might to enforce any foreign policy decisions that the EU adopts.
One important mechanism for changing the future outlook of a nation is the amount spent on R&D. Well that Evil Bastard George Bush is doing it again… under Bush we have seen an increase in R&D spending in the US not seen since the days of Sputnik.
We are also working on alternatives to gasoline such as biodiesel. Imagine the dismay of doomsday-predicting environmentalists when it turns out that our "automobile economy" turns out to be sustainable (which it will be given continued US investment in alternative energy sources).
So I guess you can accuse us of a war against "Iraqi innocents" if that makes you feel better, while ignoring the continued evil of the former Ba’athist regime. But that won’t change the fact that your entire rant is based upon ideas so far from reality that they border on hallucinations.
Somehow I don’t think history will be as unkind and unfair to the US as your rant suggests. It is the US after all, who is writing that history, while the rest of you are sitting on your little hands and watching.
Not you personally, Mike, of course.
By the way, I hope all your dreams here come true, folks. I hope we do leave the U.N. I hope that Dufus’ policies bring about everything he has sowed. I hope that you personally experience the fruits of your support and your actions. I hope that his policies of open borders will bring to you all you hope for. I hope that his love of megacorps will pan out for you as you reach pension age. I hope that the spending of your Social Security on an immoral war will prove all you hope your future income to be. I hope that you will have the guts to sit and watch if he is ever placed in an international court for trial and judgement and that you won’t desert him when he needs you most. I hope that, like the Germans under Hitler, you will be always stopped and questioned if you supported the Iraqi war against innocent people when they hear your American accent. I hope that your conscience will wake you up every night of your entire life with visions of Iraqi children with their parents blood spattered on their tattered clothes because some American Marine got trigger happy. I hope when your taxes go up and the gas is too high for you to take that weekend trip or even commute to work, you will smile and feel fulfilled.
Actually, I don’t wish for any of that for you. I just hope and pray you will see the light before it’s too late and you continue to make this world an unbearable place for all but you.
diane: On this blog, you are the perpetrator.
r108 said
Her unconscious racism was illustrated by her attack on 2h9 for asking her, essentially, if she was a Muslim. What’s wrong with that?
I don’t want to get bogged down with this but your comment illustrates your interest in scoring points on the lefties rather than discovering or identifying truth…the mark of the partisan whether left or right.
Yes nice site Chief, best take Michael Yon off though he’s a paid Neocon propagandist. I’ll let you into a secret Chief I hope no one else is reading, although I’m English I worked for your USAF for over 25 years.
Bat One…I would send in a small,mobile and technologically advanced force to topple the regime. The Iranians,happy and grateful to finally be free, would greet my liberators with flowers and candies and plunge into the task of creating a democratic regime. Iran has so much oil that the revenues would easily pay for reconstruction of infrastructure damaged in the assault thus the cost to my nations’s taxpayers would be minimal.
The beauty of my plan is that not only would I remove Iran’s immanent nuclear threat but I would rid the world of one of terrorism’s primary supporters whilst at the same time creating another bastion of democracy to join Iraq smack dab in the middle of the Islamic hordes.
Next?
Security Council Resolution 688 did not say the Security Council was acting under Chapter VII of the UN Charter which provides for enforcement action, nor did it say that all necessary means could be used. The no fly zones were therefore illegal.
True that countries do not require the UN to authorise force for self defence, but that’s not really relevant since Iraq hadn’t attacked the USA.
The UN has to be the final authority, no country has the right to ignore International Law, otherwise I’m sure they had the whole world would turn into chaos. International Law is here to protect every country in the world an that includes the USA.
Sure i know the USA isn’t keen on the UN, it tends not to follow their orders all the time. Frankly I would like to see the USA removed from the UN entirely, much in the same way Nazi Germany left the League of Nations, since it spends most of the time vetoing important Resolutions that everyone apart from the USA finds desirable. In addition it fails to pay the dues it owes but actually creates new situations which incur additional expense.
.
If you want me to converse with you Robert you will have to learn to write in English.
The sad part is, while we are debating history here, more innocent civilians died today in Iraq. I haven’t checked, but it’s usually the case. Others are suffering horribly. And don’t bring up Saddam. He’s old history. They are suffering because of the U.S. occupation, any way you want to cut it.
And those who support it will be held responsible, if not by man, certainly by higher authority. Look in the mirror tonight (please do it without worrying about not liking me) because you really need to. Get a good take on yourself, eyeball to eyeball, and ask yourself what justification we have to be in Iraq, since no one has yet given one with any legal or moral basis at all.
robert associates Christianity with the usual right-wing behaviors of church-going and brother-love. But Jesus went farther. He said love your enemies. Whether you believe I’m a follower of Jesus or not, if you claim to be and the President certainly does, why are you causing the death of people who are not even your enemies? They know it’s you even if you won’t admit it. And, as Michael says, the day will come when the world will demand justice if there’s any possible way for them to get it.
I came to this site to smack people upside the head with the truth but, as is clear, we are just dancing and insulting.
I give up. As the Jews told Pilate, I feel you are telling the Iraqis and those of us who abhor this hellish immoral war: "Let his (their) blood be upon us and upon our children."
My hide is thick, Mike Adamson, but my time is valuable and my stomach isn’t strong enough to listen to any more of this. Spare the insults, I’m leaving.
Because of you, some innocent Iraqi child most likely lost a parent today.
Oh dayum! I can’t believe what I’m reading. The substantial profits to the oil companies are now called the war on terror. Bush’s dishonesty is now legitimized by terrorism. You can find a dress worn by a woman in Clinton’s Whitehouse and then find a stain on it, but can not find the man that engineered the plot that sent two aircrafts into the World Trade Center. I can not see how anyone can support Bush unless they are one of his blind supporters.
I’m pretty sure that Mussolini’s Fascists won a majority in an Italian election. I know that he was a deputy when the Fascists marched on Rome and was appointed Prime Minister by the King but I seem to recall that some rule changes and heavy intimidation allowed him to win the government outright.
Both Michael and diane use a well-known psychological strategy to avoid both criticism and vulnerability. They constantly harp on what they consider to be the faults of those with whom they disagree, without ever standing up and advocating for what they consider to be good and true. One can always find something to criticize about anything, but like the Dems, they have nothing other than hate for what they don’t understand.
Michael, diane; What do you advocate? Tell us your strategy for success for the world, not simply committing violence on those who don’t do your wishes. Give us some shining examples of what you advocate, if you can. Tell us your success stories.
The administration should have been able to defend it’s policies on Iraq without attempting to destroy the personal creditability of the lying sacks of you know what! The Plames are perfect examples of ineffectual foreign service. The State Department is a cesspool and is filled with snakes. Thank You…
What the President should say about the "Libby" leak via Kathryn Jean Lopez:
Yeah and that’s why I told Cheney to tell Libby to not use his usual leak source, "high administration official" and use "former hill staffer". And that’s why I used the MSM instead of my supportive Fox News Channel or the Washington Times. And that’s why I didn’t give a speech to the Nation explaining the NIE and what was wrong with the Wilson opinion piece. Or why I didn’t send out Condi using her real name and real title.
It’s just so much more believable using the "leak" technique that we have become so good at, and I can still claim I am responsible and accountable to the citizens without being honest with the people.
Oh what a tangled web we weave . . . .
Well those mass graves would date back to the Iran/Iraq war, it happens in war time, you being an American you should know that, what was it 6 million dead in Vietnam?
Incidentally I can’t find any link on the internet for the Amnesty International report you quoted, perhaps you can provide one. However Amnesty International doesn’t actually have any "investigators" in Iraq so it would seem unlikely.
The whole "Plame" thing is a joke! They were never in any danger. Posing for Vanity Fair proved that.
My Bad! The post on Joe Wilson’s lies is at "Talk About Misleading Headlines."
Rob, You actually believe that Fox is mainstream, really? Oh, and Rob, this is the President who pledged to the people that he would bring integrity and responsibility and accountability to the Office of the President after 8 years of Clinton. He said it, he promised it. You are now an apologist for the Presidents’ lack of honor and integrity.
He is now acting paranoid Richard Nixon going after individual citizens who don’t agree with his actions. And you are justifying these actions. Let’s just substitute the name Clinton for Bush, then I would like to see the justification by you apologists.
Ah, Michael? For someon who disdains Hollywood movies about WWII as you claim, you sure seem to have watched a lot of them. And paid pretty close attention too.
I’m afraid not Batone, I even find the American accent grating on the ear. But it’s clear that many Americans, and you are a good example, have difficulty in determining the difference between fact and fantasy. I dare say if you had a survey, at least 50% of Americans would believe Batman is a real person.
Is that wrong of me to think that the State Dept. needs a make over? No one has commented after I said that??? OR is that an I agree kind of silent statement?…
diane: It is interesting to me that you express such hate for our President, but none for Saddam Hussein, who killed at least 300,000 innocent Iraqis(some with chemical weapons), and tortured an unknown number in addition to that, while professing to be their leader. You reveal yourself as an anti-American hate-filled leftie. docdave’s last sentence.
It’s a US Gov. report, therefor it has doubtful credibility, on the very first page it says "British Prime MinisterTony Blair said on November 20, 2003, that as many as 400,000 Iraqis lie in these mass graves." but fails to mention by the 18th July 2004 Tony Blair admitted that only 5,000 had been found.
This report which you found doesn’t of course confirm even the 5,000 figure.
So I presume you are now claiming that the "mass graves" located on the map in this report are the same ones that the non-existent Amnesty International investigators have "just opened" to use your words. It’s those graves, if they exist, which you said were from the mid ’80’s which I suggested could have been caused by the Iran/Iraq war. Therefore your "indignation" that I blithely wrote them off as just being the result of war is in affect a lie on your part.
You can call me any names you like, it’s seems to be the normal for this forum as far as I can see, but it is of course you that has no regard for the deaths caused by the USA in Iraq since 1991, I see no regret in anything you have written to suggest that.
You only argument it seems is to invent stories about non-existent DVDs and even callously invent stories about mass graves.
I suspect it’s all down to the "big lie" theory where people are told the same lies over and over and even when they are proved to be totally false, they refuse to admit the truth for fear of appearing to be a fool. In your case of course that’s exactly what you are, you will no doubt keep holding on to your fantasies and ignore the laughter.
Outside your little goldfish bowl, most people in the world now doubt the sanity of your President, he’s actually leading a once proud country to total economic ruin.
We found out who the leaker was:
Memories:
Monday :: July 11, 2005
President Bush Called Leak ‘A Criminal Action’
President Bush gave a press conference on October 6, 2003. In it he was asked about the Valerie Plame leak. He called it a “criminal action.” Here were his comments (from CNN, available on Lexis.com.)
QUESTION: Mr. President, on another issue, the CIA Leakgate, what is your confidence level in the results of the DOJ investigation about any of your staffers not being found guilty or being found guilty? And what do you say to critics of the administration who say that this administration retaliates against naysayers?
BUSH: Now, well, first of all, I’m glad you brought that question up. This is a very serious matter. And our administration takes it seriously. As members of the press corps here know, I have, at times, complained about leaks of security information, whether the leaks be in the legislative branch or in the executive branch, and I take those leaks very seriously. And therefore, we will cooperate fully with the Justice Department.
I’ve got all the confidence in the world the Justice Department will be do a good, thorough job. And that’s exactly what I want them to do is a good, thorough job. I’d like to know who leaked. And if anybody’s got any information inside our government or outside our government who leaked, you ought to take it to the Justice Department, so we can find out the leaker.***
I have told my staff, I want full cooperation with the Justice Department. And when they ask for information, we expect the information to be delivered on a timely basis. I expect it to be delivered on a timely basis. I want there to be full participation, because I am most interested in finding out the truth.
And, you know, there’s a lot of leaking in Washington, D.C. It’s a town famous for it.
BUSH: And if this helps stop leaks, this investigation in finding the truth, it’ll not only hold someone to account who should not have leaked — and this is a serious charge, by the way. We’re talking about a criminal action. But also hopefully we’ll help send a clear signal we expect other leaks to stop as well. (my emphasis)
And so I look forward to finding the truth.
Rob, so you say "The President can, and should, defend his policies. He is an elected leader and it is part of his job to convince Americans that the decisions he is making are the right ones." If this is true why did he use leak tactics to "convince" us Americans. He used Scooter Libby, "a former Hill staffer" to "leak". Why didn’t the President just stand up and take Wilson on himself, after all you said he is the President and "it is part of his job to convince Americans that the decisions he is making are the right ones". How does "leaking" it through a "former Hill Staff" convince Americans he was making the right decisions?
Cheer up diane…I’m sure they’ll get it right with Iran.
Rob,
And you believe it?…*LMAO*
According to the IAEA Iran doesn’t have the equipment necessary to build a bomb, there’s actually no indication from Iran that they actually want one. If they had one what would they do with it? Attack Israel? Israel has over 200, Iran would be turned into a desert![]()
Rather than criticizing what I say, why don’t you tell me what in it was incorrect?
Okay.
"…and seeing people still trying to defend this warmonger, that there is absolutely not one thing in the entire world bad enough and illlegal and immoral enough for him to ever do" – 1. Conjecture. 2. Tells us nothing substantive (other than you don’t like him and think he is the incarnate of evil). 3. Full of shit.
"…the deaths of over 100,000 innocent Iraqis caused by his war…" – 1. Uncited. 2. Often used made up figure based off of the heavily flawed Lancet "study".
"faux patriots" = blah blah.
"you enabled the most horrendous dysfunctional Presidency in our history and were partners with him in mass death and destruction." = blah blah blah blah.
"SHAME on all of you who continue to support this." = blah blah blah.
A rant full of ad hominems, distorted reality and a made up figure is not worth too much of my time.
"…I’m sure they’ll get it right with Iran."
Perhaps you’d care to offer a viable and effective suggestion for dealing with the Iranian nuclear question, Mike A.? And please don’t start any of that nonsense about the UN. That hasn’t worked anywhere.
Michael,
The problem is that I have no interest whatsoever in entrusting my futur e or that of my family to the competence or veracity of anything coming out of the IAEA.
As I mentioned above, they spent ten years staring right at the North Korean nuclear program… and saw absolutely nothing. Right up to the day the North Koreans announced that they had nukes and kicked the IAEA "inspectors" out of the country.
Likewise, the Khan network… which extended from North Korea and China, across the Muslin world, from Libya to Iraq, to Iran, to Pakistan, to Indonesia and the Malay Peninsula, operated for close to two decades, and was literally as invisible to the IAEA as was the North Korean nuke program.
Anyone who would put their trust in anything with the IAEA label is a world class fool and a danger to the rest of us.
Micahel,
Considering the flaccid excuses provided by the likes of Auden and the rest of the English gentry, and the pitiful leadership of Chamberlain, I’m not sure that were I you, I’d be all that anxious to bring up the subject of Germany during the 1930’s.
"As every schoolboy learns," those who are actually prepared to defend themselves and that which they hold dear usually have a greater chance of not having to do so.
One need only review the breath-taking incompetence of the UN’s IAEA to this point, from the North Korean’s successful nuclear weapons program, built right under the watchful eye of the IAEA’s own inspectors, to the illicit worldwide nuclear assmbly network of Dr. A. Q. Khan, from China to Pakistan, to Iran, to Iraq, to Libya, etc., to recognize the complete folly of entrusting our security to the UN.
So, either we deal directly with Iran, with whatever means are necessary. Or we simply acknowledge the inevitable alternative, that the country with oil revenues second only to those of the Saudis, which has blatantly sup[ported every manner of Islamist terror group, from al-Qaeda to PFLP to Hezbollah to Abu Sayef and Ansar-al-Islam is now to have in its possession nuclear weapons.
The U.S. admits it would be five years at least before Iran would have even a limited nuclear weapon, one that would have no way of reaching the U.S. itself. On the other hand, as you point out, there is North Korea, who already has a nuclear weapon.
It’s obvious to anyone who is watching and processing that we have an agenda in the Middle East called PNAC and it’s also obvious that a half-crazy North Korean leader gets a pass from us and is relegated for negotiations, while in current possession of the weapon, while an Arab leader who won’t have one for at least five years is actually targeted for possible nuking.
What aren’t you able to see in this scenario?
The simple facts are that the PNAC agenda is in play and you NeoCons are going to allow it to go down.
I can’t believe I sat next to you in schools and that I breathe the same polluted air you breathe every day. You’re ruined the country, bankrupted it morally and economically and you’re not satisfied yet.
Michael,
the Report of the US Agency for International Development on mass graves in Iraq is here (http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_graves.pdf).
The report itself is several years old, and there have been other sites uncovered since.
Your remark about the Iran/Iraq war interests me, despite the flippant sarcasm. Looking at the map in the USAID Report, even you can notice that all the sites except one are to the east of the Tigris River, hardly where one might logically expect if the deaths were the result of that war as you blithely implied.
Ordinarily, I abhor the use of terms such as "homophobe" or "racist" simply because they have become the cliche rhetorical currency of the mentally-challenged of the Left. But what else is there to describe someone who would so callously dismiss the wholesale slaughter of Kurds or Shiite Arabs, but to label them racist?
Bat One…an NIE from last year indicated 10 years away. This post from the Belgravia Dispatch identifies a variety of opinions.
I am thinking that the State Department needs to start over. It would be nice if Condi would go in and fire them all. The MSM could report on the unemployment rate and blame the Bush administration and they wouldn’t have to lie. Chief…Is it impossible to fire the State Dept. employees?
Absolutely and the reason is that there were far less people being killed in Iraq, they had clean water, hospitals,electricity and jobs. Do you seriously believe for one moment that Iraq is now a better place to live now after the illegal invasion, do you live in cuckoo land? Even the oil revenues are being creamed off by the parasites instead of being used for re-building.
American troops in Iraq are for the most part are low lives, ignorance and arrogance is never a pleasant combination, if they weren’t killing Iraqis they would be killing at home, they are guilty of rape, torture, extortion, using kids as human shields, massacres, theft and yet you feel proud of them?
The world didn’t start revolving on 9/11, by that time your corrupt government had already killed 1.3 million Iraqis, it would have been a miracle if there hadn’t been some sort of reprisals.
The bombings in London were the direct result of Blair supporting the madman you call a president.
As for me being a coward, the fact is of course that you know nothing about me and it will of course remain that way, but the real cowards of this world are people like you who refuse to admit that the invasion of Iraq was for oil and the benefit of Bush’s cronies and not the slightest way anything at all for the benefit of Iraqis. Clearly if it was supposed to be it has been a total failure.
It appears Dufus is a busy bee himself in the nuclear bomb department. If I were an Arab in the Middle East, I’m sure I might feel this is just a ‘bit’ troubling. Of course, Arabs are expected to sit and watch as tens of thousands of them are slaughtered, as Dufus beefs up the real threat to peace and safety on this earth. Americans are the only people on earth who have the right to protect themselves. Book of NeoCon 1:9.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-nuke6apr06,0,5989419.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Bush Administration Unveils Nuclear Weapons Complex Blueprint
By Ralph Vartabedian
The Los Angeles Times
Thursday 06 April 2006
The Bush administration on Wednesday unveiled a blueprint for rebuilding the United States’ decrepit nuclear weapons complex, including restoration of a large-scale bomb manufacturing capacity.
The plan calls for the most sweeping realignment and modernization of the nation’s massive system of laboratories and factories for nuclear bombs since the end of the Cold War.
Until now, the nation has depended on carefully maintaining aging bombs produced during the Cold War arms race, some several decades old. The administration, however, wants the capability to turn out 125 new nuclear bombs per year by 2022, as the Pentagon retires older bombs that it claims will no longer be reliable or safe.
*******
We’re all okay with that, right?? Altogether now: "Yes, that is fine. We must replace old bombs. We need new bombs. Bombs. Bombs. Bombs. Nuclear bombs. Big, new, shiny, nuclear Bombs. We’re the US of A. We need bombs to keep the world free of bombs. Bombs, bombs, and more bombs. Bombs for Peace!!! ‘christian’ Bombs! Bombs of love. Bombs for Jobs!
I feel the military industrial complex pee-peeing their pants with excitement.
Thank you Dufus. Thank you for protecting us from tursts with all these lovely, shiny, new nuclear Bombs.
Amen.
My Bad… again! The graves sites are to the West of the Tigris, not East of it.
The Iran/Iraq War was fought to the east of the Tigris.
Rob,
A lesser degree of dirtiness does not make clean.
As I mentioned above, they spent ten years staring right at the North Korean nuclear program… and saw absolutely nothing. Right up to the day the North Koreans announced that they had nukes and kicked the IAEA "inspectors" out of the country.
Well I guess N. Korea should be grateful it doesn’t have any oil otherwise it would be a number one on the attack list. In theory of course any country could have nukes or developing nukes right now without the knowledge of the IAEA. Iran at least allows inspections, perhaps we should worry about the countries that don’t.
"… I voted for him in 2000 but never again."
Diane,
That’s the way to tell ‘em! Don’t you dare vote for him again!
Ah, scattered in with the insults, I found a question from Bat One:
"The U.S. admits it would be five years at least before Iran would have even a limited nuclear weapon, one that would have no way of reaching the U.S. itself. On the other hand, as you point out, there is North Korea, who already has a nuclear weapon.”
Diane,
While I am aware of that particular estimate, I was unaware that it has been adopted by the US as some sort of formal or authoritative timetable from whixh we can safely base our policy options. Perhaps you’d be good enough to provide a citation to that effect?
I do know that there are numerous estimates floating about, from one year to five at the outside, but then its that fact that we really don’t know that is so troubling… at least for those of us who view the notion of the world’s biggest supporter of Islamist terror in possession of nuclear weapons as troubling.
Since Michael and Mike have given you one, I’m not sure you still need one. However, if you simply Google the subject, you will find many more than one. I doubt you would believe any a ‘lib’ like me would give you.
I’d like to address your last statement pasted above, however:
The fact that you find the lack of a clear estimate of when they MIGHT be able to build a LIMITED weapons troubling, does not give you the inherent right to nuke them pre-emptively, nor to invade them pre-emptively. That’s troubling to me; that folks like you believe it does. That’s what may cause the final battle of battles.
If you’re so concerned, why aren’t you screaming about North Korea? Much more of a threat, since they currently are in possession of nuclear weapons. Do you think they like you? Why aren’t you screaming about Israel, also a possessor of nuclear weapons, a country wihch rebufs UN resolutions and one who has had spies arrested in the U.S. in the recent past.
No, it looks like your anxiety is limited to Arabs/Muslims.
Oh, all right, she’s new here. My comments?
Puzzlefeet,
I just now noticed your comment above asking for details on the lies of former State department employee, Joe Wilson.
I have a lengthy comment up under "Libby Says Bush Authrozed Leaks" that lists some of Wilson’s fabrications, based on the unanimous Report of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. Please, help yourself.
Michael, you are blindly obtuse, an obvious product of the English public school system. Mummy must have told you that you are special, here is a hint, your not. Goodbye.
Don’t go TwoHotel9, we need you to laugh at.
You are a total jerk Robert. For the record I’ve never tried illegal drugs although it seems quite common place where you live.
claXTONES… Aren’t you confused on that racial statement? After all the Dems. are the ones who have a senior senator who is an "Ex KKK" member?
By the way, folks, isn’t it wonderful the way Dufus has united us as was his stated goal. Just another failure from a failed man, a failed President and a failed policy.
Michael, you are blindly obtuse, an obvious product of the English public school system. Mummy must have told you that you are special, here is a hint, your not. Goodbye.
Don’t go TwoHotel9, we need you to laugh at.
"…the deaths of over 100,000 innocent Iraqis caused by his war…" – 1. Uncited. 2. Often used made up figure based off of the heavily flawed Lancet "study".
This is your only rebuttal other than blah, blah, blah. I’d say the John Hopkins numbers are far more accurate than Mr. Bush’s information on WMD’s.
I think your sense of what distorted reality is comes from wearing those things on your head during target practice.
Diane,
Wouldn’t it be much better for all, if you assumed that everyone to whom you speak (or write) would prefer that were "clear" about what you’re trying to say?
You were the only one who complained and apparently didn’t get it. I don’t mind going the extra mile for those who require it.
Good comments Diane,
We also know that the documents were officially declassified on July 18 2003 when McClellan stood before the press corp and told them that the report had been declassified that day. If Bush hd already declassified the document in order to allow Libby (former Hill staffer) met with NYtimes reporter Judy Miller on July 8, 2003, why did it need to be declassified again on July 18?
Or do we have a "is is" situation in that what the definition of "today is"?
I’m sure Churchill tried every trick to get the USA off the shelf, but as I’ve already said, the USA involvement was minimal both in terms of casualties and economic cost. Clearly the USSR had reversed the German advance with little or no help from the USA.
Ask most Americans who commanded US forces in Europe and they will probably say Gregory Peck or some other actor.
No need to get upset Batone, consider this a chance for you to learn about history.
Zsa Zsa, They were leftovers from the PC political apointees of the 90sWe had two like that in our school. It took one and one half years to fire them. Too much paperwork. They lied on their applications.
I have heard some Brits still refer to US as "the former colonies" also.
We did what? Ignortant? Every corporal carried a Sergeant’s mental abilities. I do not get my information from movies or comic books. Please review just a few books I have read from my profile. Speculating on what might have happened had we not invaded "fortress Europe" on June 6, 1944 is just that, speculation. Turning back the Japs in the Pacific was also quite a feat. The battle of Midway being just one that could have gone both ways. Where did you go to school?
Was is not pleasant, but necessary to keep the wolf away from sheep.
Which one are you?
Here is the latest AP-Ipsos poll: http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/act_dsp_pdf.cfm?name=mr060407-1topline.pdf&id=3041
I’m not a cheerleader, but Puzzlefeet I think you are on to something.
Oh, Rob, I didn’t set the standard for this president, he did. He was the one who said he would bring credibility and honesty and accountability back to the White House. So this is how he does it? Sends a "former Hill staffer" out to "leak" classified information that he quickly declassified so he could try and smear a citizen. Oh, now I get it.
Rob, "nothing illegal took place", is that now the standard of this administration? President Bush stood before this nation and promised to bring honor and credibility back to the White House. Now the standard has become, "nothing illegal took place". 70% of the nation now thinks this nation is going in the wrong direction. This is a debacle for the President. This president is "leaking" information all over the place, Just read any of Bob Woodward’s books. He’s not doing it to convince Americans that this is important. But as long as we all understand the new standard of decency in the White House is now "nothing illegal took place." Nice.
"realitybased"bob said, Fox is a bump on the mainstream ass. The Fox fools know they are out of the main stream and why do you think they are always criticizing the MSM.
So being the most watched cable network news isn’t "mainstream"? What does "mainstream" mean then?
"The tide had already turned before the USA was forced to get involved."
"I don’t think there’s any doubt at all that the European theatre would have been won with or without the help of the USA…"
Odd. I don’t recall that Sir Winston Churchill shared your opinionn at all. And I would assume he actually knew what he was talking about.
Indeed, without the US, there would likely not have been either a Soviet Union or a Great Britain. At least that was Churchill’s judgement on the war.
Michael, you are blindly obtuse, an obvious product of the English public school system. Mummy must have told you that you are special, here is a hint, your not. Goodbye.
Good comments Diane
That rant full of ad hominems, distorted reality and a made up figure was a good comment? You set the bar pretty damn low.
The Plame game is just another attempt for the "Impeach The President" campaign.
There’s a big difference, Puzzleffet, in that the questionable actions Bush takes are done to help us win the War on Terror, while Clinton’s questionable actions were not. You have to understand that Bush is an inherently honest person, while Clinton lied almost all the time. It’s just a question of character, really. I just trust Bush to always do what’s right, independent of any checks and balances. Not so with Clinton.
Back to the subject of this thread:
What the President SHOULD say is that he has been wrong about almost everything he has said since he took office, that he was actually warned about airplanes flying into buildings, that he was actually warned about the possibility of a disaster with the levees in New Orleans (as we all saw with our own eyes after he had poo-pooed/denied he had warning), that he has allowed our borders to become more open than ever (the Border Patrol checkpoint near me was closed down over a year ago) because his corporate friends/corporate farmers etc. need really cheap labor they can pay under the table and off the clock and that this leak, which he feigned such umbrage at a couple of years ago was actually his own handiwork…he was a leaker, just a continuation of all the deceptive crap he’s been dishing..no, shoveling..our way since he was elected. If he actually did that, there might be some hope for the man to come clean about everything and take his medicine.
However, there is absolutely no hope at all for him doing that because it’s totally against his nature to take responsibility for anything that he gets caught at and his hand has been inside the cookie jar so many times it’s too swollen to remove.
"… I’ll try to be more clear in the future for those who need that."
Diane,
Wouldn’t it be much better for all, if you assumed that everyone to whom you speak (or write) would prefer that were "clear" about what you’re trying to say?
Sorry to jump in with a point from the top of this post but the hilarity of Rob’s:
is just to big a target not to pull the trigger on.
Journalism.org- The State of the News Media 2006
Fox is a bump on the mainstream ass. The Fox fools know they are out of the main stream and why do you think they are always criticizing the MSM.
A rant full of ad hominems, distorted reality and a made up figure is not worth too much of my time.
worth a good insult or two though, eh lik?
I suppose I should clarify: That’s Johns Hopkins. But, while we’re at it, perhaps likwidshoe would like to give us the actual numbers of dead Iraqi civilians and her source for the information, stating why her numbers have more credibility than Johns Hopkins’. Or, isn’t it important to keep track of little things like collateral damage numbers?
Bush will say nothing, Bush had to eat his 16 words before, they were bitter.
PS Fitzgerald is empanneling a new grand jury.
Puzzlefeet,
But Bush is his hero! 
diane: When you can’t answer something, you simply ignore it, and come out with more hateful spew. Doesn’t benefit your credibility.
Your continued use of leftie buzzwords is pathetic and transparent.
Rob…are you suggesting that an off-the-record briefing of a journalist is the same thing as sharing information with the American public? I can certainly think of more straight forward ways to share information that the President feels the public needs to know.
Not illegal but not open and honest either. There’s more to the story I’m sure because it doesn’t make sense the way it is.
"Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales left open the possibility yesterday that President Bush could order warrantless wiretaps on telephone calls occurring solely within the United States…"
Just an example of the unenumerated, fiat powers that the President has according to Bat One.
Rob, here’s my new prediction: Bush will pardon Scooter Libby.
Since you are all such big fans of Wiunston Churchill, what do you think of this letter he wrote for the Illustrated Sundat Herald on the 8th Feb.1920.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html
I am fully convinced after finding this string of comments searching for news stories on this President’s okay of leaking of information he supposedly declassified 10 days after Libby was already talking about it to a reporter, and seeing people still trying to defend this warmonger, that there is absolutely not one thing in the entire world bad enough and illlegal and immoral enough for him to ever do (as if the deaths of over 100,000 innocent Iraqis caused by his war wasn’t enough) that would make his hardcore supporters rise up and denounce him. All of you faux patriots will have to live the rest of your lives knowing that you enabled the most horrendous dysfunctional Presidency in our history and were partners with him in mass death and destruction. I voted for him in 2000 but never again. Fool me once, shame on you..fool me twice..shame on me. SHAME on all of you who continue to support this.
No mention by Michael of the Marshal Plan. Doesn’t fit into his "Great Britain won WWII" meme, I guess. I especially like the "quivering in fear" lie.
Oh, my dear friends. I’m not the anti-American. You Bush supporters are. You would allow the government to wiretap you, me and anyone they would like who is a citizen of these United States without warrants. You would allow the government to become imperialistic. You would allow open borders. You would support a New World Order/one world government. Reread your Constitution. Reread history of this country’s great leaders and thinkers. Compare them to what is sitting in the Oval Office today and shudder.
You have stolen my country. The one I was born and raised in.
You and Mr. Bush have turned it into one bleep of a mess.
Mike, I got it even if no one else did.
As for superior, Mr. Crystal Ball, I’m not the one who criticized my simple way of stating something; to refresh your memory, that was Bat One. But I can be as flippant and as much as a bitch as the next target shooter. I’m mad as you know what and any Independent who can show up on the ticket is getting my vote.
The Republicons and the Democraps are kept alive and succulent with bribe money because morons continue to divide into opposing teams and hurl insults back and forth when both parties are corrupt to the core.
Both parties are taking this country down the toilet. I’m sure the Independents would as well if given half a chance, but since they won’t get one even with my vote, that’s where mine is going. I’d rather throw it to the Indies than give either of the two majors the satisfaction of thinking I have to vote for one or the other or I’ll waste my vote. It’s wasted on eitheir of them.
When this ‘President’ was elected by your votes AND mine in 2000, a good little girl who was raised conservative Republican, I was thrilled. No more Clinton, no more Gore. He has turned my hope into a pile of bloody waste and rotting bodies. And absolute dilated-pupil nonthinking sheep have enabled his dysfunction and deceptions into a cesspool of dead Americans and dead Iraqis…and as Mike so wisely sees…a future cesspool of dead, rotting Iranian bodies.
My biggest dream is to see this administration on trial for the deaths of innocent civilians in a World Court, much like the one Bush got us out of, for an unprovoked pre-emptive strike on a disabled country where everything they used as an excuse has already been proven false and an even bigger dream would be to see all of you who STILL support him sitting right there with him in the box.
Saddam’s crimes? It always comes back to that, doesn’t it? And where shall we go next? Which monster is next on our list? North Korea? No….but a much, much bigger threat. China? No, let’s continue to enrich China’s coffers and weaken our own via a multi-multi-billion dollar war. Your pensions are going, going, gone. Your Social Security is going, going….war is more important than your future. And no, this war hasn’t done one thing to protect your future. Even Bush realizes (strike that)..even thinkers in the Republican party realize that and see we’re in a hopeless quagmire that has taken tens of thousands of innocent lives of people who did not do one even minor thing to you.
You’re hopeless. Really…bottomline. You’re just a hopeless, hapless bunch. It will be interesting to watch as your children ask you someday why you supported this. Start getting your answers ready now because you’re gonna need them as they look at you with total disgust and disrespect. That’s how I look at your virtually. I’m looking at your square in the eye. You will be responsible for this and there’s no wiggle room. It’s not like you didn’t know the whole war was based on bad information. It’s not like you didn’t know that innocent, precious Iraqis, thousands of them, continue to die while you drive your SUV to your own kid’s soccer game. It’s not like you didn’t know that Bush wants those borders open. It’s not like you didn’t know that Bush was spending your children’s future on a vile immoral war.
You knew. And still you support it. Don’t whine when it all falls apart. Just look in the mirror to understand why.
My, my diane, you are a wordy little Dhimi slut, ain’t you? You carry water for the Wahabist Deathworshippers, that makes you their property. Don’t try to feed us your line of crap that you are a Bible toting conservative only concerned with bringing peace to all God’s creatures. Your full of it. Just Another Bush-hateing leftard. Here is a hint, he is not running for re-election, get over yourself. The snotty attitude underlying everthing you have written here shows you for what you are, now waddle away on your birkenstocks and slurp down some more soymilk.
Get your kids ready to die in Iran. Our ‘President’ is moving forward with his plans. Saddam was a horrible tyrant. I guess the excuse here is that Islamic fundamentalists are building nuclear weapons? Bush knows the words ‘terrorist’ and ‘insurgents’ are hot buttons that usually work for his followers. Scare them, keep them scared, and when the scare dies down a bit, give them something new to be scared about.
Well, read up:
Preparations for confrontation with Iran underscore how the issue has vaulted to the front of President Bush’s agenda even as he struggles with a relentless war in next-door Iraq. Bush views Tehran as a serious menace that must be dealt with before his presidency ends, aides said, and the White House, in its new National Security Strategy, last month labeled Iran the most serious challenge to the United States posed by any country.
Many military officers and specialists, however, view the saber rattling with alarm. A strike at Iran, they warn, would at best just delay its nuclear program by a few years but could inflame international opinion against the United States, particularly in the Muslim world and especially within Iran, while making U.S. troops in Iraq targets for retaliation.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12225188/
Will that stop The War President? Nein, my friends. Because The War President uses your children’s blood as the fuel to keep the war machine moving…not his own military age children. He can barely put a sentence together but he’s calling the shots on moves that could bring about World War III.
Cheers!
With the discussion taking a rather nasty turn, my thoughts turned to the absense of lik today. Could this be the reason?
Bat One…I can’t vouch for Michael’s activities but I can tell you that I found the link to the WaPo article this morning while reading the Belgravia Dispatch. I was a little surprised to see that Michael had already posted the article by the time I got around to my response but I assumed with a name like that he must be a crackerjack at whatever he does.
Bat One…there clearly are none…start the bombing tonight!
and North Korea. and Russia. and Pakistan. and India after you’ve sold them the technology. Israel too because they might not always be an ally.
Michael: Nice fantasies. LSD?
Oh my!!! Do I sense a personal attack on Michael now as well because he doesn’t toe the NeoCon line either? Gee, I thought it was just ‘lefties’ who did that sort of thing. As Mike Adamson points out, your racist insinuation that I must be Arab/Muslim (which I would have no problem becoming if I believed that Jesus was a prophet only because Muslims are lovely people), was what started the insult ball rolling.
Your attack on Michael just reinforces it.
Mike and Michael, I’ve long since tried to reason with people like this. All I do now is continue to feed them information, they can never refute it, and just let them hang themselves.
When the U.S. debt ceiling is raised again, maybe they’ll all throw a party in honor of Dufus and tell their children to study real hard because they will be working all of their natural lives to repay it and they’ll need some sort of high paying job (which will most likely be nonsexistant) to help pay Dufus’ war bills.
Thick skin, Mike? Long ago. I was raised with these ‘folks’, sat in their churches, sang their hymns, watched them waddle to the buffets, heard their racist comments.
So, which questions have I avoided?
And why hasn’t the gun toting gal here given us some kind of # of dead innocent Iraqis yet? Maybe out doing target practice.
Let’s get back to Dufus (sorry I just can’t call him President anymore), not even here, since now you know what a liberal/leftie I am. (By the way, my mom just called and told me she is no longer a Republican…she’s an Independent. It was the borders and the Social Security that put her over the edge with Dufus). Me, it was when he started making scary sounds about the same guy we backed when we needed him.
1) Dufus started a war for no reason with Iraq.
2) Dufus’ war has cost our economy billions of dollars with no end in sight; in fact, Iran is on the agenda, billions more.
3) Dufus’ has left our borders wide open.
4) Dufus won’t press Israel on their nukes. Oh yeah, folks, we already have a nuclear-armed state in the Middle East who has broken numerous UN resolutions and who won’t allow UN inspectors in to see what they’re up to.
Any sane and reasonable responses. I’ll respond to anything I’ve missed if you list them one by one. All I’ve heard so far is blather. I’ve put up links to several articles. No such luck from anyone here.
Funny, Michael, Amnesty International is the primary source of information on mass graves in Iraq. Their investigators just opened 2 more, estimated to hold between 15,000 and 25,000, each not combined. At this point they are dating these as having been covered over in the mid to late ’80s. Guess that is G.W. Bush’s fault too?
I prefer facts to fantasies ZsaZsa I read recently that a majority of American servicemen in Iraq still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11. That’s what I call "rewriting history" and it seems most Americans are dumb enough to fall for it.
"Yah? Well my dad can whup your dad."
MikeA,
Given the "Buzz" Aldrin video that Rob posted 2 weeks ago, you might want to reconsider that bravado where your elders are concerned. Cunning and experience win out every time.
diane: Thanks for the good news. Thank God for President Bush!
Bat One advises
Flippant and futile. I had hoped for more.
You wouldn’t let me start with the UN nonsense so I felt free to practise creative writing.
r108…thanks for the correction. My mother would be appalled.
Ah, yes. The same tiresome, leftist, "you disagree with me therefore you don’t know what you’re talking about drivel." A kind of New Age Marxism, only this time around we have color TVs instead of black and white.
Well it’s clearly untrue, you are therefore a fool or a liar, there’s no historical doubt at all the the USA was finally dragged screaming into WW11 when both Germany and Japan declared war on it. It’s nothing to do with waiting for Germany to attack the USSR, where did you get that crap from?
And what planet are you from? Of course Czechoslovakia didn’t invade 3 countries, but Germany and the USA have. Hitler claimed that Germans living in Poland and Czech were being discriminated against, he claimed that Poland had actually attacked Germany first,
Hitler’s orders to his armies, "The Polish State has rejected my efforts to establish neighbourly relations and instead has appealed to weapons. Germans in Poland are the victims of a bloody terror (polish terrorists). A series of border violation unbearable to a great power show the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German border" (in other words he claimed Poland had attacked him first like 9/11).
The reality of course is that Hitler wanted to use the natural resources of both Poland and Czechoslovakia for his war effort. Just as Bush needs the oil.
Hitler , like Bush, also claimed that he had God on his side, German military insignia carried the motto "Gott mit uns" God is with us.
As for the USA waiting until Germany attacked the USSR before coming involved must mean that you know nothing about history. The USA was finally dragged into the conflict after Japan and Germany declared war on you.
Ah, Michael? For someon who disdains Hollywood movies about WWII as you claim, you sure seem to have watched a lot of them. And paid pretty close attention too.
Take my advice, kid. Read the book. You never know, you might just learn something.
"As for the USA waiting until Germany attacked the USSR before coming involved must mean that you know nothing about history."
Ah, yes. The same tiresome, leftist, "you disagree with me therefore you don’t know what you’re talking about drivel." A kind of New Age Marxism, only this time around we have color TVs instead of black and white.
No thanks, kid. I’d rather read a good book. Say, perhaps, one by Churchill. The real one… not that make-believe Indian clown.
No mention by Michael of the Marshal Plan. Doesn’t fit into his "Great Britain won WWII" meme, I guess. I especially like the "quivering in fear" lie.
Britain and the USSR won WW11, for the USA of course it was simply viewed as a business opportunity, the UK received very little , if anything at all,from the Marshall Plan. The quivering in fear is not a lie, the USA is fine when it comes to fighting 3rd world countries, having made sure they don’t have any WMD first, but when it comes to a serious war they are amazingly shy.
You’re behind the times, Michael; the lefties over here have abandoned the lie about "war for oil" and are onto new areas of lying. Still no mention of the Marshal Plan, I see. Are you just another leftie parrot?
Sorry, r108, WWIII ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. We have actually returned to the war that was never finished when Christians kicked the Moors out of Southwestern Europe. Just to be clear. Oh, diane? Where is your husbands Mosque, what is his Mullahs name, and how many sons have you born for the Greater Glory of Islam? How long have you lived in Dhimitude? Just curious.
Two hotel9… I am not sure that claXTONE can be described as a Dem. or a Lib.? He is so far off the deep end it is pathetic.
Bat: Maybe she is that one leftie we should keep around to remind us of what they are.
…to spell check this for me you little TA b-atches with throat swatches…you been gleening to much semen from the propoganda penile capitalism rotator…watch out for it player…
Oh, diane? Where is your husbands Mosque, what is his Mullahs name, and how many sons have you born for the Greater Glory of Islam? How long have you lived in Dhimitude? Just curious.
I bet your carpet is worn out from all the wrists dragging across it, isn’t it?
My heritage is Baptist, conservative Republican, white as they come, Norwegian/Romanian/Austrian.
But the race/religion card is usually pulled by people who just simply have no rebuttal to the facts. You folks never disappoint.
I’m in the countdown phase of leaving the board. Mike Adamson makes me want to hang around a little longer for his wit and intelligent/humorous posts, but I generally can only stand reading ignorant racist garbage in small doses. Ours here will be a very short sojourn.
Mike, have you read the stupidity she is dribbling. My 10 year old can, and does, do better.
TH9…I haven’t seen you this bothered about someone since jadegold days. She certainly found your wacky button.
42 palaces, built while his people were starving, ditto the elaborate, multistory bunker complexes.
42 is that the latest story? I must say I’ve spent some time researching this and it seems it’s about as truthful as WMD, links with terrorism, 300,000 mass graves and Niger Yellow Cake. The last "palace" built as far a can tell was finished in 1990 before the sanctions started and before the US started starving the population.
If you believe otherwise perhaps you can say where these other palaces built after 1991 are located.
No one has denied American reluctance to become involved in WWII.
Well of course you did criticise Chamberlain’s appeasement but chose to ignore the USA’s 2.5 years of appeasement.
Were it not for the US China, Korea, Southeast Asia and the Western Pacific would today be under Japanese control, while Europe would be owned by the Third Riech or its German successor… including Britain.
You know I can’t tell you how often I’ve heard this kind of crap from Americans. Just to recap you had no alternative but to become involved, if you hadn’t it wouldn’t be Britain speaking German but Americans speaking Japanese.
We gave our treasure and blood to save Europe from itself… twice.
So every British and American life lost was to save Europe and not to save the USA? Just to remind you that US losses were about a half of the British ones which occurred in Europe, Africa and Asia. However Britain had only around one quarter to one fifth of the population.
There are two reactions by NeoCons (definition: Neocons are supporters of President Bush and his Neoconservative agenda).
1) They question that you could ever have been anything but a liberal/leftie. It doesn’t matter what you say about yourself, the Birkenstock stupidity starts up. It’s just beyond their capabilities (because they are so locked in and unflinching/unwavering in ‘who they are’) to understand that some people who use their minds and really look at things without the distortions of party loyalty could possibly change from one party to another or not blindly follow whoever their party puts in place (I say that because of the system of voting we have here in Murka (what’s left of what was once America). Truth is, I regularly call my federal rep’s offices. I have two Democraps and one Republicon. I get the same response from all of them: 0 As someone said, Michael I believe, they are one and the same. I have a friend who calls both parties the Statist Party. I had no problem voting Republican until one Dufus McNutt took my vote and betrayed it.
What’s been amazing for me is to watch people I knew all my life, in church and school and on the job, become raving, goose stepping, racist (‘you must be an Arab’, ‘let me see your Green Card’) automatons. Yes, I must admit I had no idea how much racism and hatred there was and how much people I once thought were decent, wholesome, family people have turned my country into a hellhole of debt, war and division.
2) They begin the Islamic/racist insults.
Let’s be honest: No one knows the truth about 9/11. They just don’t. No one except those who were involved.
Let’s be honest: As bad as Saddam is, as Michael said, Bush is responsible for tens of thousands of Arab deaths as well. As are our troops and you who voted for him in 2004, knowing what you should know by now. That’s on your head. I’m free of it and how good that feels.
Let’s be honest: Bush is from a rich family who wants a New World Order because there is an agenda to make the world a one-world system and his family is locked into that dream. I remember when his Dad first said the words: "New World Order". A chill ran down my spine.
Let’s be honest: Most of you here just go along without knowing a whole lot about the background/history of the Middle East, without having any insights at all about the Shah of Iran, the history behind the Saudi royal family’s link to the Bush’s, and almost anything else that ties in to what is going on in the world. You just parrot Dufus/Neocon trash. Why were the bin Laden family allowed to fly out of the country after 9/11..why is Prince Badr called Badr Bush? Have you read the book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins? If not, I suggest you go to Barnes & Noble and treat yourself to some truth about how the U.S. megacorporations put leaders in and take them out in order to milk the natural resources they need from any given third world country.
Why don’t you please educate yourselves into what this administration is doing to YOUR country before there’s no country left?
You’re behind the times, Michael; the lefties over here have abandoned the lie about "war for oil"
Well I would be interested in hearing your right wing fascist views. Of course I expect you believe that the illegal invasion of Iraq was about bringing democracy to Iraq along with death and destruction? The invasion was for 3 reasons, all oil related.
1) Saddam had 2 years earlier started trading oil in Euros rather than US$ and of course the USA relies on the US$ being the international currency. It means they don’t really have to work for a living and can rely on those useless US$ being re-invested in the USA.
2) The idea was to control the second largest oil reserves in the world and be in a position to undercut OPEC’s price control. Didn’t work I’m pleased to say because Iraq’s oil production is even lower now than 2002.
3) The plan to re-open a defunct oil pipeline down to Haifa, Israel. This hasn’t got off the ground but it’s still a dream.
pining for the fjords he is.
Robert108,
As I’m sure you know, Rush has been saying much the same thing about liberals for years… a "token" of the past is a delightful description.
MikeA,
Actually, your response makes exactly the point that I was hoping for… namely that there are no better alternatives. The US is either compelled to do something about the upcoming nuclear weapons capability of Iran, or allow it to happen, along with such consequences as the Iranians see fit to bring to bear.
I disallow discussion of any United Nations alternatives simply because there are none. The UN has been a colossal failure in each such previous endeavor. And if our strategic starting point is that a nuclear-armed radical Islamist Iran is unacceptable, then the stakes are simply too high to be entrusted to a failed, totally corrupt, organization such as the UN has proven itself to be. One need only review the breath-taking incompetence of the UN’s IAEA to this point, from the North Korean’s successful nuclear weapons program, built right under the watchful eye of the IAEA’s own inspectors, to the illicit worldwide nuclear assmbly network of Dr. A. Q. Khan, from China to Pakistan, to Iran, to Iraq, to Libya, etc., to recognize the complete folly of entrusting our security to the UN.
So, either we deal directly with Iran, with whatever means are necessary. Or we simply acknowledge the inevitable alternative, that the country with oil revenues second only to those of the Saudis, which has blatantly sup[ported every manner of Islamist terror group, from al-Qaeda to PFLP to Hezbollah to Abu Sayef and Ansar-al-Islam is now to have in its possession nuclear weapons. And apparently a ballistic missle delivery system and what is reported to be an MIRV capability as well (thank you, Bill Clinton, AlGore, and the ever-effusive Madeline Albright).
So, what were those alternatives, again?
2hotel9, please modify your aggression. You are surrounded by better-informed, more rigorous and articulate people on both sides. You embarrass all of us and yourself. And Michael is certainly not obtuse: he has argued, in the main, with clarity and purpose, regardless of whether he is right or not. Interesting comments about American culture rewriting history. This phenomenon stems from a combination of ignorance of other countries and a belief in the innate moral and cultural superiority of the USA, this second a familiar neo-conservative trait. What’s going on, Batone? Michael, like many historians, doesn’t believe the USA to have been the decisive factor in the Second World War, and his link provides some rather awkward claims about American reluctance to take part etc. He believes that the Russians had more to do with it. Unpalatable, perhaps, but not unlikely to be the case. Why does that make him "a fucking ingrate"? And a bit of French-bashing too, brilliant. I bet it was your idea to call them freedom fries, wasn’t it, silly? You’re an embarrassment to bats. And why did Diane get all that abuse? Her points remain almost entirely unanswered. Robert108, I detect a lot of venom from you too. And Zsa Zsa, if you won’t answer intelligent points with something more than "like, whatever", then don’t write anything. I take that back and apologise if you’re twelve or something. Can’t you chaps accept that it’s perfectly rational to worry about a president who not only prosecutes wars like it’s going out of fashion, but also is unable to pronounce the word "nuclear"? I don’t think you can have an opinion on something until you can say it! Don’t call me a leftie; if anything, I’m a pedantic bastard. Why are you all so aggressive? Have you all given up masturbation for Lent or something?
Ah, the Norwegian Blue.
I get the feeling that diane is not being truthful about her Republican roots???
MikeA: Guess I gave you too much credit. "Immanent" means existing only in the mind. I thought you were trying to sneak one past everyone. I’m usually not a bug on spelling mistakes. We all make them. That one, though, might not have been a mistake, so I was curious.
Oh, and I can’t leave out Dhimi diane. Sifted through your hatespew masquerading as "comments", conspiracy blahblahblahblah peppered with Bush hate jargon. What a sick, twisted, little world you are rotting away in, glad none of us are close enough to smell it. Let me save you a bit of time, I delete each notice with your name on it, not wasting time reading your stupidity. I am informing you so you can be cute and switch names, we never get tired of that juvenile shit here.
Hey, clax, liberalmantraliberalmantraliberalmantraliberalmantraliberalmantraliberalmantra
Bat One… She is an emotional wreck.
Diane,
Above you accuse me of insulting Michael. But other than suggesting that his blithe dismissal of the wholesale murder of Kurds or Shiite Muslims amounts to racism, I have done no such thing. There was nothing personal in what I wrote, no attacks on him, his person or his religious beliefs… as you have done with such tedious repetition here.
But you, on the other hand, present far different challenge. For I have never known anyone who could spend so much time and effort to say so little of substance as you do. Your capacity for interminable, mindless braying would put a lovesick jackass to shame. Having carefully read everything you’ve posted here (a minor act of heroism, that) I am truly fearful for your safety. We do not have laws in this country governing licensing or public leash restraints on humans, but for those suffering your level of derangement, obviously some exception should be tolerated. And I sincerely hope that there is someone in your life, someone not only caring, but sensible and intrepid, to keep you from harm, for it is clear that you have no business being out on your own.
You mention voting, and I shudder. The very notion that you would have a say in our nation’s political future is, by comparison, reason enough to exonerate all those dead Democrats who manage to show up at urban polling sites every four years. If ever there was a palpable, cogent argument for limiting voting eligibility to those who can actually demonstrate a modest capacity for rational thought, you are the very personification of that argument.
Your attempts at sarcasm are petty and juvenile. The average 11 year old is more linguistically adept… despite the appalling limits of their public education.
You mindlessly remonstrate against Mr. Bush, and anyone who supports any of his policies, although clearly you know none of these people, including the President, and have given no cogent thought to the issues and policy choices that confront us as a nation.
Please understand. I say none of this out of anger. On the contrary. The more virulent and mindless your diatribes, the more likely they are to offend those who actually are capable of even modest levels of rational thought. Contrary to whatever it is that goes on in your head, your petulant tantrums can only serve to reinforce the notion that those who stridently oppose the President’s policies cannot themselves be trusted to direct our national security policy.
And for that, at least, I thank you.
Beautiful plumage!
During the bombing of Germany, the US bombed during the day, when they could bomb more accurately, even though it was far more dangerous, while the British, quivering in fear, bombed at night, because it was safer.
Not quite, the Americans tended to get lost even in day time, far worse of course at night and in addition had great difficulty in actually hitting a target since they preferred to fly so high out of range of AA. Usually jettisoning their bombs early to get back home.
I finally had a chance to paruse your so-called evidence and you’re just as intellectually dishonest as usual. You’ve cherry-picked a few quotes from conflicting testimony, while ignoring the reports conclusion—namely that Wilson was right.
Oh yes BatOne the appeasement of Chamberlain who wanted peace instead of war. Correct me if I’m wrong but that was the war the USA sat on the sidelines for for over 2 years wondering which side to join and eventually was forced to get involved after both Japan and Germany declared war on it.
It’s interesting to note of course that many of the excuses and the motives Hitler used to invade both Poland and Czechoslovakia are almost identical to the excuses used by Bush to invade Iraq.
diane: You missed it by a few years; Reagan already started WWIII. Or weren’t you paying attention?
While Bush is apologizing for wiretapping U.S. citizens and deceiving us about the reasons for going to war in Iraq, and just before he apologizes for even thinking of nuking innocent Persian children, I think he should also apologize for taking the name of Jesus (whose mother was a Semite and who worshipped in a Synagogue), and smearing it all over the world, along with the rest of you NeoCON ‘christians’.
P.S. Bastard children as relates to Two Hotel simply means asses…not illegitimate, although I wouldn’t doubt the latter.
Now, shall we play nice or not?
"diane: By your reasoning, then, Clinton was a "neocon" because it was he who gave the nuclear stuff to North Korea."
Greetings everyone, I’m not an American but Bwitish. In answer to the question above, It’s my opinion that the policies of Bush Jr are simply the continuation of American policy running right from Bush Snr (at least) and through Clinton. Seems to me the USA really has a one party system with 2 branches, very little to choose between Republicans and Democrats unless the question relates to gay marriages or the lack of military service by presidential contenders. Let’s not forget that it was Clinton for the most part that refused to allow the vindictive sanctions against Iraq to be rescinded. This caused at least 1.3 million Iraqi deaths of which 500,000 were children. Mad. Albright (Democrat) described these as "worth it".
By the way Two Hotel, how many little chubby racist bastards have you and your equally unattractive hillbilly spouse produced for the rest of us to deal with? What ‘christian’ (in name only) church do you go to before the big Sunday buffet where you make racist jokes over lunch after worshipping a semitic Jesus?
See how lovely it is when people get nasty?
Christians kicked the Moors out of Southwestern Europe. Just to be clear
Clear as mud. Christians are people who follow the teachings of Jesus. If you can show me anything Jesus ever said about killing one’s enemies being fine and dandy, Scripture reference included, you’ve made your point. Otherwise, you’re talking about ‘christiains’, those hate-filled supremacists who, like today’s NeoCon ‘christians’, kill Arabs out of fear, ignorance, racism or some other reason Jesus never once endorsed. His agenda was loving enemies and he so instructed his TRUE followers.
Make sure you cut the eyeholes in your children’s hoods large enough so they don’t fall and scrape their elbows. Sometimes even wrist-draggers can fall far and hard enough to get a nasty scrape or two.
I know Epicurus, it’s hard, but a bit of tough love is needed here. I say Bush loses another 5 points within a week. They need a diversion, quick, I feel another hunting trip coming up soon.
Correct me if I’m wrong but that was the war the USA sat on the sidelines for for over 2 years wondering which side to join and eventually was forced to get involved after both Japan and Germany declared war on it.
That does ring some bells with me.
Guess I gave you too much credit.
Yup…my words may confuse but it’s lack of competence rather than sneakiness on my part.
I should correct that ‘ours’ to mine. Maybe Mike has been here awhile, I wouldn’t dare speak for him and he may have a stronger stomach for ignorance than I do.
Here’s something by Ron Paul, if he can hold your attention for more than just a few simple sentences. I doubt he made any spelling errors you’ll need to correct and I notice you only correct grammar, spelling, etc., of people who don’t subscribe to your NeoCon agenda. Did you ever notice how ignorant racists are?
"Iran–The Next NeoCon Target" by Ron Paul:
http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=8821
http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=8821
diane: You are the source of most of the ignorant, racist garbage on this blog. You have never played nice, so it’s hypocritical to the extreme for you to accuse anyone else of it. The Christians drove the Moors out of Spain after the Moors had invaded using "conversion by the sword". I guess you conveniently forgot that part.
DON’T USE TERMS LIKE LIBERAL MANTRA: ITS IS AN OVERSIMPLICATION AND LEAVES THE DOOR OPEN FOR ME TO USE TERMS LIKE CONSERVATIVE MANTRA: I DEFINE CONSERVATIVE MANTRA AS BUT FUCK THE MASSES CAUSE I’M SCARED TO JOIN THE FIGHT CAUSE I DON’T WANT TO GET HURT CAUSE I’M A PUSSY…WELL GUESS WHAT DONNIE DARK HOLE RECESSS OF THE AN-ILE CHASM YOU OSTRICH NECK YOUR DOMICILE: THE FIRST OF THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH: ALL IS SUFFERING: BUT OUT OF FEAR YOU JOIN THE OPRESSORS AND STAND ON THE SIDE LINES CHEERING THEM AND SPREADING POISONOUS LIES AND MISCALCULATIONS DUE TO YOUR FEAR BASED MENTAL ASSUMPTIONS ON THE TANGIBLE DIFFERENCES OF SEMANTIC RHETORIC THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BERRING AT ALL ON WHO FIGHTS THE RIGHT AND FIGHT AND WHO TRIES TO APPEASE THE SHERRIF OF NOTINGHAM BY RATTING OUT THE SECRET LOCATION TO THE BASE: WELL THE BASE IS ALL AROUND YOU AND WHEN WE TURN RIGHT, THERE WILL BE NOTHING LEFT OF YOUR RAG TAG BAND OF WAR PROFITEERS AND SPIRTUALY SAPPED SAK GRABBERZ…SACTO AND BACK THOUGH LIKE ARTEST, CRAWL INTO THE STANDS IF YOU WANT TO GET SLAPPED BACK DOWN, BUT YOUR ASSUMPTIONS ARE PRESUMPTIOUS AND ASUME PRESOPTION AND PETIFILE TOUCHED BACKROUNDS: HENCE YOU ARE AFRAID DEFER RESPONSIBILITY OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF….PITIFULL LITTLE SICK CHILDREN…MY MY SPACE ACCOUNT ALLOWS THE TRACKING AND SYSTEMATIC MOLESTATION OF YOUR CREDO (AT LEAST FOR THE TIME BEING) UNTIL THE SYSTEM TURNS OFF AND THE GRID GOES BLACK…THEN YOU WILL RELEASE THAT YOUR US VERSE THEM WAS HOPELESSLY SIMPLISTIC AND IGNORANT, THUS FALSE AND USELESS AGAINST THE RISING TIDE. GROW SOME BALLS AND EMBRACE THE CHAOS….YOUR WAY LEADS TO STAGNATION ENSLAVEMENT AND THE DEATH OF THE MIND AND SOUL AND BODY. REMEMBER THE TRIPLETS: MATERIALISM, MILITARISM, AND RACISM, AND IF YOU DARE ARGUE AGAINST THEM THE WORDS OF JESUS THE MUSHROOM GOD/NIEKUNG KUNDA LINI: “LIVE BY THE SWORD…DIE BY THE SWORD” OR TAKE THE PUSSY WAY AND BOW TO YOUR FASCIST OPRESSORS…HAVE FUN DECONSTRUCTING THIS BUT REMEMBER…
” Finally in a total act of desperation you accuse me of being a racist, undoubtedly conveniently forgetting that extreme right politics, such as you practise has always been associated with racism. The Bush Gov is widely seen outside of the USA as the biggest threat to world peace and security since 1933 in Germany, not by coincidence another set of racists.”
amen dats tha truth and for those who cant see it, eat the dick cause like my brother said “the penile capitalism rotator visits you nightly!!”
Zsa Zsa…all in good fun.
We sent wheat to the Soviet Union during the Cold War. We could have starved them out, but we didn’t.
where did you get that crap from?
Maybe newsbusters.org or WND? Just guessing of course.
Rewriting History is big business these days. The public school history books are filled with political correct versions of how and why America was established. It sounds as if Michael has either been reading those history books? Or, writing them? Ken Mc Cracken at WILLisms.com has a post on how the NYT’s is saying how re-enlistments are down??? Just another non factual account on how one individual hopes to persuade and confuse the true facts… It makes for some interesting fiction though.
Michael– What are you talking about? Germany used a plebicite to take part of the Sudetenland. Czechloslovakia did not invade three countries. Yes the USA waited until Germany invaded Russia, then the communists wanted US to get involved.
42 palaces, built while his people were starving, ditto the elaborate, multistory bunker complexes.
Michael,
Ignorance is one thing. But to be so presuptuously arrogant about it is simply inexcusable.
Clearly, Sir, you are resident on the wrong side of the Channel. Fucking ingrate!
Diane, amazing that you can make a hateful statement like that and call yourself a Christian. What don’t you understand about loving your neighbor and in this case it seems ‘love my enemy’ as well. If you knew as much about Christ as you claim you’d know that he would never indulge in the hatefilled vindictive that you have used.
I thought it was rather a fair response to this, which initiated it:
Oh, diane? Where is your husbands Mosque, what is his Mullahs name, and how many sons have you born for the Greater Glory of Islam? How long have you lived in Dhimitude? Just curious.
Bat One
However, I assume you did not take offense at my "insult" of your namesake.
Not at all. The day that the insults stop at SA is the day I start worrying about youse guys and gals.
"… he professed his belief in God in much the same way Bush does and both used God to justify their non-Christian actions."
Michael,
In other words, the point is that by focusing on Hitler’s professed Christianity, you then tie Hitler to President Bush, who professes a Christian faith? Because Hitler used his purported faith in what you refer to above as the Christian God to justify his monstrous actions, you see Bush’s actions as analogous? So your point then, is to draw a parallel between Hitler and President Bush.
I see several problems with the analogy, not least of which is your blatantly offensive back-handed insult of the billions of other people who have regarded themselves as Christians over past 2000 years or so. But be that as it may, it is a well known fact that there is an ongoing assault on Christianity by those on the Left, so that’s hardly to news to any of us. As is the hypocrisy behind that assault, for it is clearly the case that the Jewish people in general, and Israel in particular, are far safer allied with the Christian conservatives than they would be with the international socialists of the Left.
And I will ignore your charge that the President’s actions are "illegal" as that is merely another dose of leftist drivel. But I am interested that you accuse the President of using his personal faith to justify his actions, and I wonder if you have any direct quotes from Mr. Bush to support that rather specious accusation. In what speeach or press release has Mr. Bush used God, Chritianity, or his personal faith to justify any of the actions with which you and your ilk disagree? When did he indicate that the war in Iraq, or the Global War on Terrorism are the result of his Christian faith?
It’s a pretty significant charge you’ve made, but I’m betting there isn’t much more to it than the over-the-top ranting of a delusional, if admittedly well-read, leftist.
CHIEF: IN MY LOSE DEFINITION A NAZI IS A PERSON WHO SUPPORTS FACSISM…
Michael…A better name for you would be His Royal Hind-ass. You are the most arrogant ignorant individual around. Haliburton is not making money in Iraq. If that is who you are talking about? Otherwise there is no other US oil company that has anything to do with Iraq. Nothing I say is going to make any impact on what you choose to believe. You should be thankful that less oil is being produce in Iraq more than ever. The corruption in the Iraqi oil industry was well established before Saddam was deposed. Do you recall FOOD for OIL? You are clearly not rational and haven’t a clue as to what you are saying! Get some real facts and quit spewing the liberal mantra and maybe you will be taken seriously? Butch up and wise up before you call anyone "Dumb"…
I’m intrigued that both MikeA and Michael would quote the same WaPo article on a "new" (relatively-speaking) NIE that puts Iran’s acquisition of nukes another 5 years away.
The irony of the situation, and the sheer hypocrisy of those on the Left is truly breath-taking.
In the first place, there’s the question of the NIE itself. All last week, the President was taking a rhetorical beating, including here at SA, for the public release of information from an NIE. Yet of this one on Iran shows up on the pages of the Washington Post, and there is not one peep of protest at its release (by who??). And exactly how were this story and the contents of this NIE verified by Dafna Linzer, Julie Tate, and their presumed editors, anyway?
Of course Michael, who bravely states, "It’s a US Gov. report, therefor (sic) it has doubtful credibility…" goes on to cite this NIE despite its dubious parentage and veracity. Perhaps, there’s some sort of a supplement available at the local GNC, or maybe a surgical procedure, to alleviate that problem you have with dissonance, Michael. I’m sure once you’ve acknowledged the problem to yourself things will start coming into sharper focus for you.
Still, this points to the very heart of the problem. For it isn’t the NIE itself at issue, or its release/leak to the press. The point is that it supports the pre-fabricated conclusions of those who site it as authoritative. Exactly the perspective that the Bush administration critics accuse the President of adhering to. They ridicule the President over the Iraq NIE, decrying that document’s inaccuracy and flawed conclusions, and accuse him of high-handedly using national intelligence information to support his policy goals… as if that was wrong of him to do. Yet when the same intelligence (?) community comes out with another NIE, one to their liking, one that supports their fervid international timidity, that NIE might just as well have come down from the mountain in the arms of Moses himself? High hypocrisy, indeed.
As for the contents of the NIE… well, lets see. How much yellowcake does Iran actaully have? How many centrifuges? How long would it take using "X" number of centrifuges to convert "Y" tons of yellowcake into "Z" pounds of fissile material? And how long after a certain volume of fissile material is available would it take to assemble one, two, or ten nuclear devices?
I am not trying to flippant here. Quite the contrary. As the left has so tiresomely pointed out, our intelligence reconrd in this area is more than a bit suspect. And suspicions can run in both directions. If the IC was too generous in their assessment of Saddam’s capabilities (they weren’t… merely geographically challenged) it is equally possible that they are now too generous in the opposite direction.
Michael: Nice fantasies. LSD?
For Britain of course the war started in 1939, it was in the first place an evacuation from France due to the Germans having extremely strong military power. It then proceeded to what’s known as the "Battle of Britain" which was the eventual defeat of German air power over England. The tide had already turned before the USA was forced to get involved.
I don’t think there’s any doubt at all that the European theatre would have been won with or without the help of the USA, although I suspect the Soviet block would have stretched a little further west. American involvement in WW11 was minimal, for example Britain suffered twice as many casualties from a population between one quarter and one fifth the size of the USA. Britain could not however have won without the help of the USSR.
American views of WW11 are clouded by what came out of Hollywood and what you read in your comics. American soldiers in WW11 had a reputation of stupidly and being more interested in getting their end away than actually fighting a war, quite undeserved obviously in some cases.
The fact remains the USA sat quivering with fear for over 2 years before they were forced to become involved, that’s appeasement.
As a war veteran myself (Vietnam), I am more than a little sympathetic with Chamberlain’s desires for peace. No one truly knows the horror of war so much as those who have endured it.
That said, I find your response both curious, and more than a little disingenuous. While you defend Chamberlain’s "appeasement" as a "desire for peace" you seem to castigate the US for similar behavior, by noting the the US "sat on the sidelines for two years." That Britain "sat on the sidelines" for at least as long… until Hitler turned his sights on England… seems to have escaped your somewhat jaundiced attention.
And while I have not desire to offend your English sensibilties by being too robust and vigorous, still I doubt that any rational historian would suggest that the war in the european theater would have been won in any case without the US.
The problem with all such arguments as these is this: Had the US entered the European war a year or two earlier, likely as not, the Chamberlain/Auden crowd would have been just as indignent at the US’ presumptuous preemption as you are today. Without the horror of war, you never really know just what it is you’re missing, Michael.
Bat One…Prudent advice although one advantage of the internet is that you don’t know if I’m older than your dad let alone you.
diane: You are the source of most of the ignorant, racist garbage on this blog. You have never played nice, so it’s hypocritical to the extreme for you to accuse anyone else of it. The Christians drove the Moors out of Spain after the Moors had invaded using "conversion by the sword". I guess you conveniently forgot that part.
That’s your problem..you don’t read. Did or did not someone ask me about my mosque, if I lived in the Middle East, the usual racist/religionist crap..which I then responded to?
No, you forgot the definition of Christian. Look it up in the Four Gospels. It involves loving enemies. Judaism is an eye for an eye. Perhaps you have the two confused.
diane: Although you claim to be a Christian, you have just expressed the "eye for an eye" reasoning in your last post. You wrote:
"Did or did not someone ask me about my mosque, if I lived in the Middle East, the usual racist/religionist crap..which I then responded to?"
You justified your hate-filled response by someone asking you a question you didn’t like. How is that loving your neighbor?
Or is this just another version of the Clinton "everybody does it" excuse?
After posting excellent summaries of what the NeoCons and Bush are doing to this country, the only responses I have gotten are blah, blah, blah, no response on numbers of innocent Iraqis murdered during this illegal/immoral war, and racist comments about my mosque, etc. You folks have set the standard here, not me. Read Ron Paul and then discuss it with me, if you can. You decide the way you want it to go down. I’m simply tired of ignorant NeoCons throwing insults at people who are intelligent enough to debate them and I’ll lower myself and throw them back if that’s what happens.
I’ll try again:
1) The girl with the gun: How many innocent Iraqis have died, what’s your source and links please.
2) Read Ron Paul on Iran.
3) Stop the attacks against Islam and the inferences that my LOVE of this country and my DISGUST with what this ‘President’ has done/is doing is motivated by some association I might have with Islam.
I doubt you’ll do any of the above, but let’s see.
MikeA…I could whip both your Dad and you easy! Not really but I just wanted to say that. Mike you have such a great debating gift. Even though I don’t always agree with you. I kind of like you. You seem like such a gentleman and you keep your cool. I apologize for being such an amature. Sincerely!
Saddam Hussein: 300,000 murdered, many more than that tortured and maimed. You seem to ignore that. I guess you think he’s just ducky. Jesus never spoke of Iraq, but you seem to be able to speak for Him. You are a typical hate-filled leftie, in that when you want to slam something(or somebody), you talk about the cost and ignore the benefits. When you want to promote something, you talk about the benefits and ignore the cost. Try a balanced approach, and you might get somewhere.
"For every action, there is a reaction, equal in force and opposite in direction."-Ike Newton
As for my not behaving like a Christian, I believe you need to get a Bible out, and read Jesus’ response to hypocritical Jews of his day, the same type of religious hypocrites who would promote and support the Iraq war, where innocent people are DYING by the thousands for nothing they ever did. He was rude to them, he said their father was the devil and his response was less than friendly. Tough love requires harsh words at times.
I’m not supporting murder of tens of thousands of innocent people. Johns Hopkins put it at over 100,000 some time ago. Where’s the rebuttal to that? I haven’t seen it.
Calm,
If there is any proof that Michael is actually an historian, it has yet to be offered here. In fact, I’m not yet convinced that he’s British, though that’s hardly the point either. So far, he has shown himself to be but one more radical progressive, with a disfunctional Shift key.
No one has denied American reluctance to become involved in WWII. But then, that’s the same point of view of those same Progressives when it comes to dealing with Islamist terrorism… a curious bit of self-serving hypocrisy no matter what your politics.
As for Michael, he has yet to cogently explain the clear disparity between his rather fanciful, youthful take on WWII and that of Churchill, the PM and true historian who directed the effort.
If you actually want "answers to intelligent points" as you cclaim, then perhaps the thing to do would be to offer some "intelligent points."
Finally, Calm, as to your remark about the "… belief in the innate moral and cultural superiority of the USA." I’m pleased to see that you finally managed to get something right. Particualrly something of such primal importance.
Yes, we maintain that belief for it happens to be true. No other country has done so much for so many others as has the US. We gave our treasure and blood to save Europe from itself… twice. Were it not for the US China, Korea, Southeast Asia and the Western Pacific would today be under Japanese control, while Europe would be owned by the Third Riech or its German successor… including Britain. All facts detailed with pedantic care by Churchill himself. That moral superiority you find so despicable is way more preferable than the ethical ambivalnce and moral equivalancy that your side preaches with tedious sanctimony..
Yah? Well my dad can whup your dad.
What a bunch of maroons.
r108…so you agree that the talk of bunker busting nuclear weapons is silly?
Some will learn from it, others will continue to live in denial. I daresay a high proportion of these people who are inbred hillbillies who have never even left their county leave alone state and have no idea what the real world is all about.
Bush is a proven liar, why do these people still try and defend him and repeat his lies like a flock of parrots?
Because they are a flock of parrots. They were raised in White, mostly lower middle class, church culture, sports oriented, sad school system, heart of America. They believe ‘White is right’, that Christianity is something you do on Sunday, that America has the right to take over the world if we are strong enough, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a Commie pinko socialist lib leftie Bush-hating SOB. Of course, they only say that after they hug eachother in Sunday School and hit the Home Buffet.
Don’t try to educate them, just annoy them. Let them know how many of us out here think they’re vile and murderous and every time they read our words they can think about all the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis they will be held accountable for at some point.
The Germans were the same way under Hitler. Witless parrots. Secure in their delusions that they were the Master Race.
These are the folks you see on TV while flipping channels at the Daytona car races, the beefy men in T-shirts with the massive rumped, slightly odorous women and the very ruffled children, usually 3-4 in tow, arriving in jacked up pickups that make them feel ‘larger than life’. If you think they’re teachable or even want to learn, you’re wasting your time.
If you’re doing it just to make sure that the facts get in front of them, great.
I lived during WWII did you? As far as crap is concerned, what made you an authority about our politics? It’s Brits like you that make me regret that our country ever gave you aid. Your country wouldn’t have been able to defend itself without our lend lease programs which shipped vast amounts of supplies to you via Canada risking dramatic ship losses to German submarines.
Well I certainly know enough about American politics to make me want to shudder, you and the rest of the dumb Yanquis clearly know nothing about British politics or history, apart from what you’ve read in comics. The lend lease program as far as the US goes was a good business deal. Incidentally Britain is still paying for it, 50 ageing, rusting destroyers, only one of which survived the end of the war, most of them being scrapped because they were in danger of sinking. True the Canadians did help get supplies to the UK, all of which had to be paid for.
Snobbish, know it all that you are, you write about your countries losses in Asia where your false superiority caused you to be defeated by a vastly undermanned Japanese forces in Malaysia and elsewhere. Fortunately for you, us and the world you currently have a leader in Blair who you don’t deserve that recognizes the perils in the world today and is willing to ally with our ‘chimpy’ president as you so disrespectully put it.
Any defeats in Asia we suffered was because our main objective was to defeat the Nazis in Europe at a time when the American were content to sit on the sidelines. Blair is finished, just like your monkey president he lied to the country and that will not be forgiven. He needs to visit the International Criminal Court as soon as he is kicked out. God knows what made him support the lying madman you have in charge
Keep your insulting nature to yourself and do something useful like get a job. The fact that you are posting at this time probably means you’re on the dole.
Well unlike you, I’ve never received any State aid in my life or do I ever expect the need to do so.
Mike A.,
Flippant and futile. I had hoped for more.
calm down, you are like a fresh drink of cold water in the desert.
I admit not to reading every post. If they start out like this, I skip them, but this one caught my eye (don’t remember who wrote it and don’t want to bother looking back):
My, my diane, you are a wordy little Dhimi slut, ain’t you? You carry water for the Wahabist Deathworshippers, that makes you their property. Don’t try to feed us your line of crap that you are a Bible toting conservative only concerned with bringing peace to all God’s creatures. Your full of it. Just Another Bush-hateing leftard. Here is a hint, he is not running for re-election, get over yourself. The snotty attitude underlying everthing you have written here shows you for what you are, now waddle away on your birkenstocks and slurp down some more soymilk.
I take it from that statement that anyone who believes that the Iraq war was illegal by international law’s standards (as some very competent lawyers do), and anyone who doesn’t ascribe to the PNAC falls into the description you give above?
It also begs the question: Are those of you here who don’t like my opinions haters of all Arab people and all Muslims, or just those you consider terrorists and fanatics?
I enjoy being called these names because it does reassure me I’m definitely on the right track in my thinking but I also have to laugh when I remember sitting on those hard pews hearing "The Old Rugged Cross’, watching the evangelist wiping sweat from his face with the red handkerchief and ‘going forward’ so many times that my preacher finally said, "Diane, please don’t come forward anymore…you’re saved."
Well, after a stint at a well known conservative Bible college, I found out what Christianity was about, after they told me not to talk about the Holy Spirit anymore on campus (not good Baptist doctrine). I found out that Christianity is understanding Jesus’ message. I found that Jesus’ only rebukes were to the religious of his day. I found that out from reading the Bible in my dorm room intead of soaking in Baptist doctrine by generational Baptist professors.
The ‘christian’ church of today is a mirror image of Talmudic Judaism of Jesus’ day. Hateful, self-righteous, exclusive. Like Jesus, my only problem is with religious people who kill in the name of God, who look down their noses at others who don’t subscribe to their agenda and who follow their leaders blindly.
Jesus took a whip and drove the buyers and sellers of religion (religious symbols and tools) out of the temple. He would most likely do the same today to the peddlars of ‘christianitiy’, the perversion of his name. I feel the same umbrage when I see Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and the others making merchandise of the name of Jesus.
Now I’ll drink some soymilk and take off my Birkenstocks and put my swollen feet (from protest marches) up on my worn out sofa.
I think Michael is quite intelligent and probably very sexy as well.
Bright men are very attractive.
Bat: A familiar reference.
MikeA: Where did you get that one? Not from anything I posted. It’s "imminent" by the way, unless you were trying to slip something snarky in there. I think we have bunker busting conventional weapons; nukes don’t have to have any specific qualities to be effective.
Michael: By your logic then, diane must also be a Godly person, since she once was a loyal Baptist(or so she claims). You knowingly take Hitler’s propaganda for sincere belief. That is just foolish.
"Saddam Hussein: 300,000 murdered"
I think for the most part that’s Bush talk just like WMD and links with terrorism.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1263901,00.html
PM admits graves claim ‘untrue’
Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
Sunday July 18, 2004
The Observer
Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that ‘400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves’ is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.
Now you are getting desperate Robert, the "mass grave" at Najaf apparently contained the remains of 72 bodies the result of an uprising against Saddam.
I’m still waiting to hear from you where the fictitious mass graves amount to 3/400,000 are located. You point to a report by the US Agency for International Development which makes no mention of this figure other than to quote Tony Blair has having used the figure of 400,000, ignoring the obvious fact that Tony Blair was forced to admit that was a lie and that only mass graves of 5,000 have been found.
Well where are the mass graves caused by Powell’s "turkey shoot" where reportedly around 100,000 retreating Iraqis were shot in the back, some ploughed whilst still alive into the desert. There was of course no UN Mandate authorising this act of genocide. Where are the mass graves you have caused around Falluja and 3 other cities which the benevolent USA has reduced to waste? What about the 1.3 million Iraqis killed by the sanctions including 500,000 children, were some of those not buried in "mass graves" exceeding the one you quote which contained 72.
I will tell you where this 300,000 figure comes from, it was invented by the US Government along with WMD, links with terrorism and yellow cake from Niger. It was increased to 400,000 by Tony Blair, either by accident or design, but he later admitted that he had lied.
What defence do you offer? An imaginary DVD you say showing the faces of 300,000 dead people, a DVD which you are unable to prove the actual existence of. Finally in a total act of desperation you accuse me of being a racist, undoubtedly conveniently forgetting that extreme right politics, such as you practise has always been associated with racism. The Bush Gov is widely seen outside of the USA as the biggest threat to world peace and security since 1933 in Germany, not by coincidence another set of racists.
It seems that the organiser of this forum allows personal insults, one female contributor has been described as a "slut" by a Neocon nutter. I would like to know if this is acceptable behaviour, couldn’t we concentrate on the issues rather than these childish insults. It’s bad enough dealing with people who want to hold on to their myths and fantasies, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Michael: My bad. Saddam is really a sweetie.
Well I wouldn’t exactly say that![]()
. But when it comes to killing Iraqis the Bushes and Clinton far excelled him and are still doing it today.
I hope you didn’t pay too much for that DVD, where was it made, Hollywood? If you think this claim of 300/400,000 mass graves is true perhaps you can say where they are located. You wouldn’t be calling Tony Blair a liar would you?
. Of course there were casualties during the Iraq/Iran war when both sides used poisonous gas supplied of course by the USA. But conservative estimates of deaths under Saddam, apart from the war period, puts it at 100 a year tops, which is just about a daily toll now in Iraq because of the illegal invasion
r108 said
You are the source of most of the ignorant, racist garbage on this blog. You have never played nice, so it’s hypocritical to the extreme for you to accuse anyone else of it.
If diane is going to play here then she will need a thick skin. That said, r108’s comment is quite unfair and lacking any resemblance to this thread’s reality. As likwidshoe always says, take issue with her words but resist the personal attacks as exemplified by TH9’s Islamic riff. It’s just rude and it puts in question the author’s credibility when penning more serious comments.
IMHO of course.
diane: By your reasoning, then, Clinton was a "neocon" because it was he who gave the nuclear stuff to North Korea.
I enjoy being the victim when it’s the victim of such insipid stupidity. If I weren’t, I’d worry that I was on the wrong track.
You poor thing! Every submission you have made on this blog has been filled with hate, and you are now the victim?
Well Robert it seems that your only defence when utterly defeated by discussion is to insult and abuse your opponent, You are even pathetic at doing that.
Yo Michael…don’t waste your time on these nazi’s…let them rot…
I would have thought ZsaZsa that before you give 100% support for your chimp of a president you could take some time to learn the true facts.
Exxon, BP, Shell and Chevron now own Iraqi oil, very little of the revenues are actually used for the benifit of Iraqis.
The restructuring of the Iraqi economy is best characterised as a “smash and grab” operation. The smash involved the imposition of a set of administrative instruments which established US and other western contractors as the prime agents of reconstruction thus marginalising and undermining Iraqi capital. The grab of Iraq’s oil wealth ensured that the rapid entry of foreign capital was underwritten by Iraqi revenue. It has been executed with a guarantee of immunity.
On the same day that the CPA came into being, Bush signed Executive Order 13303 which exempted the Development Fund for Iraq (DFI) – the agency set up to distribute reconstruction contracts – from all legal proceedings and judicial oversight. The order effectively granted the CPA immunity from prosecution and judicial interference. The CPA kept no list of companies it issued contracts to, and it had no system for metering the oil that it exported and sold. Officials were authorised to disperse revenue with little or no adequate system of monitoring or accounting.
Very deliberately the US delayed the establishment of auditing bodies and then refused to cooperate with their inquiries. A full 11 months after the CPA took control of the Iraqi economy, they appointed Stuart Bowden, a close associate of Bush, to audit the authority. Bowden served Bush in the Texas ­governor’s office in the early 1990s and latterly as a White House official.Despite the fact that the dice was loaded in favour of the CPA, the US and UN audit reports that eventually appeared still read like a textbook of corporate accounting fraud.
Iraqi oil revenue was flown in to the CPA in $100 dollar bills, shrink wrapped in $100,000 bundles of “cash bricks”. One CPA official has described how cash was distributed to contractors from the back of a lorry.The use of cash payments enabled the CPA to distribute the reconstruction funds without leaving a paper trail.
Its also obviously escaped your attention that all oil for food transactions were handled by the UN Sanctions Committee, headed up of course by the USA. All sales of oil, all purchases of food and medical equipment were handled by this committee and oil receipts deposited into an account with the Fed reserve in NY. Around $30 billion remained in this account, unspent by the Committee although people in Iraq were dying through the lack of food and medical supplies. At one time the USA turned down a request for baby food by Iraq by stating that adults could have eaten it also. The remaining funds in that account were then stolen by the US on the pretence that it would be used to rebuild Iraq, practically all of it disappeared by using it as bribes or it was simply stolen or embezzled.
Yes it’s true that Saddam tried to sell oil outside the oil for food program, but I think he was justified in doing that because of the damage it was causing. There’s not the slightest evidence of course that he kept any of the money for himself, if there is perhaps you can state where it has been located.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113746003186348100-MVb_vrVbUBR8bYsizm1ZB9YuqiA_20070117.html?mod=blogs
But the audit agency’s calls to withhold some payments from Halliburton have been resisted by Pentagon units that awarded the contracts. The Army Corps of Engineers disclosed in November 2005 that it was going ahead with a $1.5 billion payment to Halliburton for work on Iraqi oil fields, including $124 million for costs the defense-department auditors had challenged as questionable. It also paid Halliburton nearly $38 million in bonuses allowed under a contract formula for good performance.
Diane,
You are beginning to sound very much like the announcer at a bus terminal, spouting the same insipid drivel over, and over, and over again.
How about doing your audience, what remains of it, and your own modest credibility a service, and for heavens sake, please change something. Anything! Get some new material, try out the "Shift" key, try using a different language other than standard Progressiv-ese – English maybe?
You are fast becoming a strident irrelevancy whose tantrum could put a meth-head to sleep. If you have nothing more to offer, at least have the decency to stop embarassing yourself in front of strangers. It’s becoming painful to watch.
Okay, I’ll think about it. Hang on a minute.
Nah. Think I’ll continue on.
Later though, lunch is over.
MikeA: Good points, but I still stand by my evaluation of diane. Check out her posts; every one of them is filled with hate directed at the usual leftie targets. She practices the unconscious racism of the hate-filled left. I’m not attacking her, I’m pointing out her own words. She accused someong of an "eye for an eye" attack, while justifying her use of the same tactic. Is it an attack to point that out? Her unconscious racism was illustrated by her attack on 2h9 for asking her, essentially, if she was a Muslim. What’s wrong with that? He was trying to understand her point of view, which doesn’t make sense from her self-description. When someone is as hateful and hypocritical as diane, pointing it out is not an attack. Oh yes, calling everyone who doesn’t agree with her "neocons" is another example of her unconscious racism.
it all boils down to a flawed economic system. People will scream till they are blue to make you think these things are not related but they are: its is very simple, thus the greatest secret of all. Capitalism CANNOT exist long term without a massive lower class to support an elite few and the goosesteppers who want to join dance on there strings. Poverty cannot exist without wars and oppressive goverments. Capitalism cannot function without disproportionatly rapping the enviroment that when mapped on a graph spells certain disaster. In most of our lifetimes we are going to witness the system go off line. The elite facsist corporations will turn they’re backs on the masses and the shit will go down. Unless our blind tampering with nature gets us first….So don’t be so hung up bashing bush…kerry would be just as bad…THEY ALL SERVE WALL STREET AND WALL STREET DOES NOT HAVE ANYONES INTERESTS IN MIND Except for people who work for wall street…
Actually Robert it’s more about you trying to hurt other people’s feelings but frankly you are not even smart enough to do that.
Instead of believing everything the Bush junta throws at you have you never thought about actually checking out facts for yourself. Everyone knows Bush lied about Iraq so why don’t you question everything you are expected to believe? Are you too proud to admit your stupidity?
I’m no stinking Dem…and even though I carry a US passport and social security card so I can rape the fat off the land and take all advantages I can, I’m sure as hell no American. Take your crosses and march you goosesteppers. ZSA ZSA was a whore, motel six is for cheap tricks and STD sheets…
I think Michael is quite intelligent and probably very sexy as well.
Yes you are right about the sexiness as well.
Doc: you are really confused…why would i leave? I told you right there in the same sentence you used to justify my relocation: “I am here so I can rape the fat off the land and take advantages” I’m not going to live in some shit whole N korea…My peoples is here…The war will be fought here in America you silly idiot, and the enemy will be you, you insipidly confused foolish pontifs…I’m on the front lines of CALI right now sucker…and while we wait, like I said, we rape the system..CC cards and freedom to pretty much do what I want…I love America, It just needs to be cleansed so that the social evolution can continue without being held hostage by the champions of racism, materialism, and millitarism. Gotta go by some herbs….give em hell Michael. P.S. Detonators where used in the towers! Adios cunados…
blah, blah, blah More hatespew. It’s all about your feelings, isn’t it?
You go to the leftie hate sites, copy their spew and claim it as fact. You are a parrot. You hate America.
And you Robert are a dodo, most people in the world do hate America and with good reason, and it’s all down to people like you. I present you with facts and you counter with myths and fantasies. Everyone knows that Bush is a liar even people like you who continue to deny it.
Michael…how are things in Bwitain? Your observation that American politics is really two sides of the same coin is true of course but the creative tension at SA tends to the right/left variety. Welcome aboard.
Notice how these right wing extremists are always trying to get you to move somewhere else? Perhaps DocDave could move to Mexico and allow a more useful immigrant to take his place?
Michael…how are things in Bwitain?
Well to be honest, bloody cold. It’s seems the same every year just lately, Spring is slow arriving although in my garden the frogs have already laid their spawn and the hedgehogs showed up a couple of days ago after their hibernation. Yesterday was a bummer because a sparrow hawk took a dove right in front of my eyes, poor thing was squealing as is was carried off, tried chasing but to no avail.
MikeA: An excellent plan. Good work. Now, if you only believed it…
Yes you are right Diane, there’s always going to be certain percentage of Americans that will never admit the truth or face reality.
I once met a group of Germans whilst on holiday in Spain, seemed quite civilised on the face of it, but it was clear that some of them at least still looked upon Hitler as some kind of hero, the best Chancellor Germany ever had were their words. Same with these hillbillies, despite all the evidence stacked up to the contrary, they still believe Bush is a good old boy, but most people of course simply need to look into his eyes to see the deceit, corruption and lies, but the truth will never be accepted by some.
diane: You poor thing! Every submission you have made on this blog has been filled with hate, and you are now the victim?
I must say it’s refreshing to see Americans like Diane and Saxtone understand the fact that Bush is nuts. Many people outside the USA paint all Americans with the same brush which is unfortunate.
As for giving them hell Saxtone I will leave that to God, obviously not the same one they believe in.
General Eisenhower was the Supreme Commander of Allied forces in WWII. General Eisenhower was American.
He better than all Americans that remained back home knew that Hitler and his cohort were fascists who saluted with an open hand up and used multitude of flags and symbols, which so much fascists are fan of.
The Nuremberg trial judged all the fascists of relevance who intervened in all the stages that led to the war and in the war itself, and they were judged as fascists.
Never socialism was mentioned in those trials, because a kind of socialism helped Europe to get rid of Nazis : Communism.
But Communism is not socialism, at least Communism as it was interpreted by Stalin et al. Conservative Communism in the USSR became also fascism in a way, as its ideas were made absolutist by their leaders. And fascism is absolutism.
I know it is difficult for Americans to understand Socialism in its purest conception because Americans have been made to think that mentioning Socialism is like mentioning Satan, and they are quite mistaken about this, because although they – the Americans – do not believe it they are also socialists in its great majority at heart. They seek the social welfare that Health protection and benefits as pensions and child benefits that most of the European countries grant to their citizens. and which were achieved thanks to the use of socialist ideas in the old continent, and that is socialism. They seek that taxes be distributed among Americans having those who earn more to pay more to the Treasury, and that is socialism.
As were socialist the ideas that inspired the Constitution of the US.
At least for me there is lot the slightest doubt about it.
Maybe you could move to a more sane place within yourself, if one exists.
It’s like your talking to some kindergarter
Out of the mouth of babes.
Yes, Doc, I’m the teacher. And I’m looking forward to giving you an "A" because I’m sure you have the answer I asked for.
Well the 300,000 figure is always used in regards to mass graves, indeed it still quotes that figure on your State Dept. website although many people have pointed out that it’s as false as WMD, links with terrorism, human shredders and throwing babies out of incubators.
So you’ve found a DVD with mug shots of 300,000 stiffs, I hope you don’t mind me doubting your word. Perhaps you can link me to a site where this DVD is for sale, e-bay or something. I expect however you spent some time googling in the vain hope of finding the location of these imaginary mass graves.
I prefer facts to fantasies.
Zsa Zsa says: I sometimes think
Darlin’, if I were you, I wouldn’t try that too often. Much too hard on your brain.
Well, still no justifications/explanations of why we’re in Iraq killing people.
You know, if I didn’t have some fun with all of you, it would be just too depressing.
Anyone get the kill figures on CNN today? I understand the Marines in charges of the slaughter of the innocent Iraqi family won’t have any charges pressed against them. Just ‘reassigned’ because of bad leadership abilities. But a little Iraqi girl who stood there and saw it all will most likely be traumatized for the rest of her life. Does that make anyone but me shudder?
And we wonder why ‘they’ hate us??
Well I don’t know how I could of possible had a point, thats not my MO…if I did though its only for the “in” crowd. Agree 100% that “socialism” is a loaded term, but as Diane said, you can’t change the way these “hillbilis” think. I prefer Facsists and racsist as lables because they are and don’t even know it…a hybrid of socialism and capitalism is inevitable and of course already exists in many degrees. There should be know insurance layer to the health care issue they are a tax charging thrid party that is not necessary…prepare for an onslaught of BS and goose step rhetoric from this bloggers for bringing up the topic though! good looking out, gotta go…
michael: My bad. Saddam is really a sweetie; just misunderstood. I have the DVDs of his murders and tortures, btw. Even CNN admitted they had been lying about his savagery for ten years, just to protect their news source in Baghdad.
Ah, the perfect way to end a perfect lunch break. Look what I just found, and this is why people like Michael and I keep pounding on admist the din. It seems Dufus feels pressure to back off on his warmongering toward Iran.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12252300/
WASHINGTON – President Bush said Monday that force is not necessarily required to stop Iran from having a nuclear weapon, and he dismissed reports of plans for a military attack against Tehran as “wild speculation.”
Bush said his goal is to keep the Iranians from having the capability or the knowledge to have a nuclear weapon.
“I know we’re here in Washington (where) prevention means force,” Bush said during an appearance at the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University. “It doesn’t mean force necessarily. In this case it means diplomacy.”
Taking questions from the audience, Bush also made these points:
Bush and other administration officials have said repeatedly that the military option is on the table, and White House officials acknowledge “normal” military planning is under way. Several reports published over the weekend said the administration was studying options for military strikes, and an account in The New Yorker magazine raised the possibility of using nuclear bombs against Iran’s underground nuclear sites.
Bush did not directly respond to that report but said, “What you’re reading is just wild speculation.”
LOL.
Okay. If/when Dufus attacks Iran, let’s all remember that it’s simply ‘wild speculation’.
Doc… My sentiments exactly!
LISTEN ZSA ZSA If you where anywhere as smart as you try write you should have realized long ago that I am not the same person as Diane and Michael. I use many alias for the simple kicks/mix it up…I also change my desktop backround photo alot…The bottom line is I may be ClaXStone the Monitor, Clothmaker, or Tusedo Don depending on how i feel, but I definately have and would never use the name Diane and Michael…if you believe that then you should be more open to detanators in the tower, and by the way one day we will all find out its true and you can suck my peeny…diane and mikey tha brit don’t talk like that…
& I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SUPPORTING STALIN ANYWAYZ…THEMS WAS YOUR WORDS SOLDIER BOY. DON’T ASUME ANTI BLACK MEANS WHITE. KICKING IT WITH THE WAR PROFITEERS AND CHILD MURDERERS AND HIDDING BEHIND YOUR THIN VIEL OF PATRIOTISM AND FEAR MONGERING WILL GET YOU NO WHERE…
You have a point Saxtone, there was an interesting discussion on one of the yanqui discussion boards concerning "socialised medicine". They all thought it’s a good idea basically for the US Government to fund medical services to the public, paid for with a progressive tax, based on ability to pay, or simply on income and assets. Well they all thought it was a good idea until someone mentioned that it was a socialist idea and now they are not so sure. ![]()
It’s funny how a word like "socialism" can put Americans off a good idea but they don’t seem to mind at all that Bush is a fascist.
MikeA: Hitler called his political party the "National Socialist Party". That’s a fact. Henry VIII, as you well know, was a monarchist. Marxism is an artifact of the industrial revolution, as you should know. As far as Hitler being a socialist; I give you the Volkswagen commissioned by Adolf himself for his Third Reich. In English, it means "People’s Car". Sounds just a bit socialist to me. I don’t think the citizens of Nazi Germany had much control over their capital, so you figure it out.
Well that’s hardly gratitude DocDave.![]()
So you think it’s ancient history that Bush is a liar, I suppose you have a point in that regard, but are you ready to admit it?
Michael…probably not although you’re welcome to submit a post. The link is on the front page somewhere.
a hybrid of socialism and capitalism is inevitable and of course already exists in many degrees.
Obviously not enough in regards to the USA Saxtone. Italy today elected a new Government which is described as a "socialist coalition". It may surprise some of our resident hillbillies that Tony Blair’s labour Party has its roots in socialism.
Extremes in politics are always a bad thing, whether it’s extreme socialism (Communism) or extreme right wing (fascism) of the kind you had in Germany in 1939 or today in America. The ideal mix is somewhere in between. Unfortunately for you in the States you seem to have little choice, either the Republicons or the Demoprats, two wing really of the same party. What you need in the States, as I’m sure you know, is a party which will offer real alternatives. Unfortunately I can’t see that coming about in time for your next election.
My guess is that ZsaZsa combs her hair over one eye, has grown a moustache and is currently practising a funny walk.
Michael, your mention of the Iran/Iraq War was quite to nice diversion, entirely wrong, though I am sure you knew that. The 2 newly opened sites are west of An Najaf and appear to have been used as body dumps for 3 or more years. As for Amnesty International, they have 3 teams totaling 64 people, in Iraq. And they were not who opened these sites, they merely are observing. The mass burial site connected to combat operations from I/IW are thoroughly documented, the Baathists made little effort to hide them. The ones they hid were filled with children, women and old people, many of whom they did not bother to kill. March them into the trench and bulldoze it full. Why waste ammunition? That was Saddam’s fiscal responsibility policy.
I understand the Marines in charges of the slaughter of the innocent Iraqi family won’t have any charges pressed against them. Just ‘reassigned’ because of bad leadership abilities.
Don’t be too sure about that. Did the Nazi storm troopers in 1939 foresee the Nuremberg Trials? Believe me records are being kept on all abuses of the Geneva Convention and violations of International Law right down from the Commander in Chief. My guess is that Bush won’t be taking too many foreign holidays once he’s deposed.
This will make my dreams sweeter: (Is this one of the papers y’all consider ‘liberal’? They all seem like government schills to me but the news for your boy and, mostly, for the Republicon party, isn’t real great.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12243327/
By Richard Morin and Claudia Deane![]()
Updated: 10:01 p.m. ET April 10, 2006
Political reversals at home and continued bad news from Iraq have dragged President Bush’s standing with the public to a new low, at the same time that Republican fortunes on Capitol Hill also are deteriorating, according to the latest Washington Post-ABC News poll.
The survey found that 38 percent of the public approve of the job Bush is doing, down three percentage points in the past month and his worst showing in Post-ABC polling since he became president. Sixty percent disapprove of his performance.
….Barely a third of registered voters, 35 percent, approve of the way the Republican-held Congress is doing its job — the lowest level of support in nine years.
…A majority of registered voters, 55 percent, say they plan to vote for the Democratic candidate in their House district, while 40 percent support the Republican candidate. That is the largest share of the electorate favoring Democrats in Post-ABC polls since the mid-1980s.
…As Bush and the Republicans falter, Democrats have emerged as the party most Americans trust to deal with such issues as Iraq, the economy and health care. By 49 to 42 percent, Americans trust Democrats more than Republicans to do a better job of handling Iraq.
Democrats also hold a six-percentage-point advantage over the GOP (49 percent to 43 percent) as the party most trusted to handle the economy.
…Four in 10 — 40 percent — say Bush is doing a good job with the economy, down eight percentage points in a month. One reason for the drop may be the recent sharp increase in fuel costs. Fewer than one in four approve of his handling of gasoline prices, virtually the same as last summer when gas prices topped $3 a gallon. Overall, 44 percent said the increases are causing "serious hardship" in their family, up significantly from August.
******
The cost per gallon for premium here is $3.03 today and my husband tells me that if Dufus should attack Iran, he’s read it could go as high as $8.00 gallon.
Of course, what does that matter if it keeps those color-coded terror alerts at the right color…or did they finally get rid of those when the guy who thought them up left Homeland Security and the perverts took over?
More hatespew from diane, the poor victim.
Oh oh Michael. Now Zsa Zsa’s sure to think we’re one and the same. Both here, together, at the same time. Hopping boards, playing parts.
I leave them to you. It’s 1:30 a.m. California time and I must get some shut-eye to be back for the a.m. rounds.
DUDE, LIKE I KNOW ABOUT THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY…A BUNCH OF FASCISTS USED IT HIJACK AN ISM, JUST LIKE THE FASCISTS RUNNING THIS COUNTRY. NOTHING EVER GOES SMOOTHLY.
Zsa says:
I bet "diane" plays the role of the wide-rumped, NASCAR-loving white frump
No fair! Plagiarism!!!
Actually, I like to play the part of the soymilk-drinking, Birkenstock wearing leftie commie pinko socialist lib.
I have to say Diane that I would be surprised if Robert even understands what you are writing about leave alone sympathise with the Iraqis in regards to the carnage and destruction Bush and his cronies have caused.
Robert won’t need to worry until he’s drafted , becomes unemployed, experiences 20% inflation, 15% interest rates. Only then he will question what has gone wrong and why has a good Bush baby become a victim.
Claxstone: Not that you really care, but the full name of the Nazi Party was the National Socialist Party. In German, "National" is "Nazionale", thus the "Nazi" nickname. Hitler was a socialist, just one of many socialist mass murderers.
Let’s talk Green Zone. The Green Zone was once the most beautiful area of Baghdad. Where the rich and prosperous lived. Know what the Green Zone is today? It’s a cement-bunkered, razored wired US utopia where officers relax by the Olympic (double Olympic) sized pool with a coffeehouse and belly dancing lessons while ordinary Iraqis try to stay alive and scrape enough money together to feed their children. It’s where Condi and all the other brave leaders like Straw and Scumsfeld visit. It’s where the new American Embassy (what a joke!) is being built. It’s where alot of your tax dollars are going.
Has anyone here any compassion at all for the Iraqi children who are growing up in a hellhole of blood and death every day of their lives because the US is in their country, unprovoked, and has torn it apart and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future?
And don’t bring up 9/11 and those families because I mourned for them long ago and Iraq had not ONE thing (as Dufus now admits) to do with 9/11. Of course, he and the rest of his gang wanted us to believe Saddam did have something to do with it but when it became glaringly clear that there was no connection, it was all about ‘liberating’ the poor Iraqi people.
How many lies and deceptions are you people will to swallow from a man of this caliber? Never mind, I imagine, as I said in my first post, that there is just no limit.
It does look, though, that despite that fact I’m voting Independent, the Democrats will take over Congress and I’m quite sure they won’t do a much better job than Dufus has done. They certainly couldn’t do worse and for that I’m grateful.
P.S. Detonators where used in the towers! Adios cunados…
Of course they were. For years, any of us who saw buildings taken down in older areas of cities recognized that it was exactly the same process.
Then there’s the janitor who was in the basement level and heard the walls shaking and saw cracks in the walls, and saw a burned man come screaming out of a basement elevator BEFORE the first plane hit. That man is pursuing a lawsuit against Dufus and this government.
This is just another example of sheer willful blindness on the part of Bush followers. Everyone in their right mind knows that buildings don’t pancake on themselves from being hit by an airliner at the top levels.
It was definitely a timed demolition. Now, if you can deny that after seeing it right before your eyes, you’re hopeless.
Michael: Since I’m not your daddy, it’s not my job to take care of your feelings.
diane… Ya ya ya whatever.
Like you?
Oh, and remember: Support The Troops.
Whenever I see one of you with one of those insipid yellow ribbons with that faux patriotic rubbish on it, I do a ‘thumbs down’ and shake my head violently ‘No’! I hope you see me. But I doubt you do. You’re too busy slurping that 7/11 SuperSize on your way to Wal-Mart.
RZ, I never saw you respond to my being called anything that was insulting to Muslims. Do you choose which name-calling is acceptable here? There’s tons of it. It was started by the ‘rightie Bush-loving beer-drinking ex-military mindless’ crowd’ and we just joined in to be part of the fun.
Speaking of Zsa Zsa. I have to agree with Michael. I especially loved this line:
Any integrity you might have started out with has vanished because of your obvious superiority complex.
His possible integrity is gone because he has (to Zsa Zsa) a superiority complex? Does Zsa Zsa know what integrity means?
Honesty, virtue, wholeness. What would that have to do with a superior ‘complex’? You could have a complex of superiority and still be honest, virtuous and whole if you were superior. And Michael is obviously superior. Just read his posts. LOL
I see that, since my lunch break, no responses have come in to any of the issues raised multiple times, so I’m going to break it down to its simplest form in hopes that everyone, including Zsa Zsa, can understand:
Please give me sound reasoning to justify the war in Iraq.
(Answers should include more than insults, comments about Dufus getting bad intelligence, and other cop-outs.)
As for capitalism. There will always be capitalism, always has been in human history, even underground capitalism under communistic regimes. It’s as simple as someone trading a clam for a fur, a Coke for a kiss. What’s bad about capitalism is its misuse by the megacorps and this government enabling them to abuse and exploit people who aren’t as conscienceless or as ’smart’ or who have very little options for making a survival wage. I’m aware of various definitions of capitalism, but the basics are, breaking down the word, a system of using assets to produce assets. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that.
diane: I guess you don’t object to the jihadists who kill in the name of religion, though.
Republicans, on the other hand, are all united by a single goal, a cause greater than themselves. Therea are no special interest groups; all Republicans fight for the exact same principles, and they are all prepared to die for them. Those who question their leaders are eliminated….from the Party membership. They will not be stopped.
I’m quite prepared to give you more time Mike in that regard, time for everyone to love me a little more and my popularity to grow.
Roberts, I am amazed at your ignorance! But then it is not your fault. More than 70% Americans r ignoramuses if not out right illiterate. There is not one war in your history that u did not instigate yourself. U wiped out an entire civilization of injuns and the methods employed would shame a Hitler…u sent them small pox infected blankets against which they had no immunity. U have yet to answer for why u wiped out two bustling civilian cities in Japan. Your Mexican, Philipines and other invasions, your use of DU ammo and napalm in Iraq, cluster bombing of Afghanistan, none of whom did u harm. And some of u want to b sheep dogs when what u throw up as leaders r wolfish scamps in human disguise. Imagine the world affairs to b entrusted to the likes of Robert here who hardly knows his arse from his elbow.
I wouldn’t mind US to b world leaders as long as they act justly. But u have shown yourself unworthy of the trust by perpetrating atrocities the world has never seen. Your press is so spineless that it paints Saddam and Hitler to b worse than Bush and his coterie. Everytime your excesses r brought up, u cite Saddam as having done more badly as if that is justification for u to kill innocent people by the millions.
Michael and Diane r right. U will have to pay for all the innocent blood u spilt, each one of u, because u stood behind your leaders for your comforts acquired thru making the world miserable. I dont know what God u or your leaders worship but the real One’s mills grind ever so slowly but ever so fine.
Diane,
You are beginning to sound very much like the announcer at a bus terminal, spouting the same insipid drivel over, and over, and over again.
How about doing your audience, what remains of it, and your own modest credibility a service, and for heavens sake, please change something. Anything! Get some new material, try out the "Shift" key, try using a different language other than standard Progressiv-ese – English maybe?
You are fast becoming a strident irrelevancy whose tantrum could put a meth-head to sleep. If you have nothing more to offer, at least have the decency to stop embarassing yourself in front of strangers. It’s becoming painful to watch.
Michael: No, I just called her on her hypocrisy at claiming to be the victim when she is the spewer of hate, just like you. BTW, even though she said you were sexy, I don’t think you will get any.
Diane,
Certainly appreciate the update… and the change of pace. But Fox News was carrying it live. Thanks anyway.
Today Robert I’m going to be busy and of course I have my own discussion forum to run. You wouldn’t be welcome on that, we only allow people who are intelligent.
But I don’t mind you writing the same crap over and over, accusing people of hating you, forgetting that there are many good reasons to do so. But it’s not my hate that will be killing people in Iraq today, it’s yours.
Michael– Many people use beliefs from time to time to fool people. The proof is in their practices, not words and the fruit of their Christianity. He had neither. Same for Sadam. Same for Stalin.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make apart from Christian bashing which is to be expected. You either believe or you don’t.
As far as our present President is concerned, I believe in his honesty, his Christian walk and his unwavering support of the US Constitution.
People can disagree on interpretations of words and sentences. I could exchange many with you to show that some people will stick to a belief in the face of many facts to the contrary.
Today, our MSM newspaper published a story in which President Bush said that he declassified certain information so that the American people could learn The Truth. That was his decision. A good book to read is: Pearl Harbor — Final Judgement, in which this very question of classified material is central to the story and the problem. In this case, it was Top Secret and involved the Navy and Army (later Army Air Corps). This problem led to the creation of the NSA around 1947, which is also part of this story today.
MikeA: It should be familiar; it is characteristic of every communist regime. Being expelled from the Party is equivalent to becoming a non-person. Soon after, that person generally "disappears".
Yes, Khafji. That was where we had the "trip wire" of a small detachment. The Iraqis came at us with their tanks’ turrets backwards, indicating surrender. They then turned them around and began firing. Cowards. We did carry the day. Yes that is an example of an invasion, just like the British invasion in 1812. Kaufi? Annan? Knew about the problem there. When a commander on the ground warned him, he basically took the position of : we shouldn’t take a position, it might rile one of the parties. The evils of Communism was known. Between 50-120 million were killed in the name of "breaking a few eggs". Please take a tour of my site.
http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/2006/01/making-on-omelet-by-murdering-millions.html
"it all boils down to a flawed economic system… Capitalism CANNOT exist long term without a massive lower class to support an elite few.."
Good Heavens! A Stalinist! The political version of a coelacanth. How about we all order up some "roast duck with the mango salsa"?
Michael: Still waiting for your positive recommendations for the rest of us ignoramuses. We may not have your intelligence quota, though. I’m not accusing you of anything, just reporting your behavior. Got anything else? Talk about posting the same crap over and over!
You see what happens, I go to bed for 8 hours , wake up and find the court jester trying to convince everyone that Hitler was a socialist. He wasn’t of course he was a fascist, I thought that was a well known fact. Yes I know he led a party called the National Socialists, the socialist name being chosen because it appealed to the masses.
Hitler was vehemently anti socialist, anti communist and anti-trade unionist, that’s why they were the first to be locked away as soon as he came to power. It also explains why he was anti-Jewish since Soviet Communism , even from the early Bolshevik days, was dominated by Jews. That is why he attacked Soviet Russian, thankfully, otherwise Britain and the USSR would have never won the war.
Communism is the most extreme form of socialism, where govt owns not just the means of production, but the citizens and everything else as well. The US has some socialist practices, like the "progressive" income tax, but the means of production are privately owned, and there are free people making free choices. Hitler’s party was the National Socialist Party. That’s a fact. It is also a fact that socialism tends to be fascist in nature, although they don’t call themselves fascists, politically. In this country, the lefties tend to be fascist, in that they separate themselves into many special interest groups, like the enviros, the feminists, the "gay community", and the like. Every one of their "causes" has its own little pressure group.
r108…I kid you alot when you post on this topic but I really do admire your thoughtfulness even if I don’t agree with your conclusions. Communism and Socialism are reasonably easy to pin down but the concept of Fascism has eluded the grasp of most political scientists and thinkers. Communism and Fascism are certainly both totalitarian ideologies and the end result for the man on the street is largely the same under both.
"I know it when I see it" is probably the most honest conception. Fascism usually includes references to one’s country and "the land" that is absent in Communist formulations which tend more to stress the international bonds based on class. Fascism also exists in societies with capitalist enonomies but the bottom line really is the same totalitarian outlook shared by both.
What web site?
Just want to be clear on this:
Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern.
Do you agree with this definition of facism?
Well Chief, I wasn’t aware that Iraq invaded Saudi, and a Google search throws no light upon it at all. .
OK just found this "What we did then is the next two days we poured literally hundreds of sorties in on that area. Most of the battle of Khafji occurred in Kuwait, on the road from Kuwait City to the town of Khafji in Saudi Arabia." http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/horner/3.html
Surely you don’t consider that an Iraqi invasion of Saudi?
As for the UN doing something about the deaths under Communism. Does the UN have an Army? Did the USA propose any Resolution suggesting a military solution? Did we even know about the millions of lives being lost in the Gulags, which I understand amounted to around 30 million, surely that only came to light after Stalin was gone in 1953.
As for Rwanda, wasn’t it the USA with Mad. Albright, then the U.S. envoy to the U.N., who was instructed to block the proposal to send more troops?
I don’t think that I’m the one being a fool Batone. Anyone with a molecule of sense would understand that International Law is not something that can be overruled by any individual country. True that in the case of the USA it’s hard to enforce, but there will come a time believe me.
"The USA doesn’t recognise International Law, but that doesn’t stop other nations applying international law to the way the USA behaves."
Michael,
You are a fool, Sir. Having now justified the forceful application of an admittedly alien set of laws and sanctions on the USA, you can hardly then argue that the US doing much the same thing to Iraq or elsewhere is either "illegal" or unjustified.
Something to do with geese, ganders, and sauces, I believe.
"I don’t think that I’m the one being a fool Batone (sic)."
Of course you don’t, Kid. If you had realized on your own the foolishness of what you said, you wouldn’t have said it, and there would have been no reason for me to point it out to you.
Your Marxist fantasies are amusing, as is your name-calling. Got anything positive about what you think should be done? Still waiting. It’s easy to snipe, but more difficult to come out in the light and state your dreams and wishes for the good of us all.
No, that is what you do, just spew hate at those who don’t choose your ideology, and you still didn’t give a positive answer to my question. You just stated what you won’t do(nor would anyone else). I’m still waiting for some positive suggestions. Come on, hit the ball over the net; let’s see what you’ve got. It’s easy to snipe and criticize, which is just self-protection. Step out into the light. Let’s see your true face, unless the face of hatred and fault-finding is the only one you have.
Fascists are not elected by the people. "El Duce" was not elected, nor way Hitler. A small group of people did that, just like in the Communist state of USSR. Just called different names–proletariat.
You people seem to make things up as you go along without any regard to the truth or to history. In the first instance both Hitler and Mussolini were democratically elected.
TUC General Secretary Brendan Barber commented: "These are worrying figures. Employment is down, whilst unemployment, economic inactivity and involuntary part-time work are all up. Manufacturing lost 15,000 jobs between December and January, and 117,000 jobs over 2005. The Bank must surely now accept the case for a cut in interest rates, and the government should significantly increase investment in programmes that help the unemployed back get back into work.’
Yes it looks like Blair’s luck has finally run out, but then again if he hadn’t spent $10 billion supporting the American’s oil war perhaps we wouldn’t have this problem. Strange to hear you describe Blair as being the head of a socialist utopia.
But I’m glad you are interested in economics, later this week I believe we can review that latest monthly US figures on the trade and Treasury deficit. Compared with the US, Britain’s problems are very minor.
So Hitler’s political party were socialists because they were called the National Socialist Party? I don’t think I’ve heard anything quite so stupid in all my life. You totally ignore the fact that Hitler was anti-socialist, anti-communist and anti-trade unionist.
I associate fascism with extreme nationalism, a belief that they are some kind of master race. a total disregard for International Law, a government that spies on their citizens and even removes those involved in education that disagree with official policy, a State that despite all the evidence to the contrary still claims they have God on their side, a state where torture and secret prison are acceptable in pursuit of their objectives, a state that invents excuses to attack other sovereign nations in order to secure natural reserves. That’s what Hitler was all about and fascism was all about.
The UN should be kicked out of the US.
Michael, diane; What do you advocate? Tell us your strategy for success for the world,
I believe in the rule of law, I don’t want the world turned into the wild west with cowboys in charge. It’s that simple really.
not simply committing violence on those who don’t do your wishes.
That’s your policy of course, exactly what I disagree with.
It’s interesting the way Americans like to be in denial about the number of deaths in Iraq caused by the illegal invasion, much in the same way that Germans were in denial about concentration camps after WW11. The 100,000 figure came about after research by the Lancet medical journal as was carried out in 33 randomly-chosen neighbourhoods of Iraq representative of the entire population.
Soon after the massacres and atrocities in Falluja a further survey was made actually by Iraqis putting the figure then at 130,000. Both surveys entirely consistent with each other.
I don’t expect for one moment that the US Gov or crummy Republicans are going to admit the obvious, that being 30,000 dead Iraqis is clearly bull shit. But yes people will do serious counting once the US has left Iraq and yes the ICC will have a part to play. The USA is about to suffer a major economic failure, when that happens it will be more than happy to release the war criminals in return for economic cooperation.
Those who question their leaders are eliminated….from the Party membership. They will not be stopped.
This sounds very familiar.
Michael: Nice hijack. GIGO
Hey Rob! any chance of me becoming a monitor?
well I guess either you know or convince yourself of something else to make it easier…
so sensitive zsa zsa…FOR A NAZI
Clax, Thanks for the reply. Sorry for the delay. I still work and have a flex schedule. In your definition, I would not be a NAZI. I do not support facism. I support democracy and have fought for our freedoms here and over there.
Robert108, you are correct on the history part. More than that, the NAZI party was in opposition to the communist party that had taken over in Russia around 1917. The average person did not want that type of government. In addition, Hitler did appeal to nationalism and the history of the German people. Stalin did the same in the 40s.
The Truth: I heard from a Russian soldier at a freedom fest here a few years ago. He showed the propaganda posters used by "uncle joe" to appeal to their history of the Russian people also. Facists are not elected by the people. "El Duce" was not elected, nor way Hitler. A small group of people did that, just like in the Communist state of USSR. Just called different names–proletariat.
Michael: If you can’t find someone’s grave, then, they aren’t dead? Maybe they all went on vacation. The DVD’s have been on sale in Baghdad for some time. Iraqis use them to find their missing relatives, friends and family members. The original film was shot by Saddam’s regime, to proudly record their atrocities. I said 300,000 dead, not "mass graves". Nice strawman attempt.
No Michael Moore bs here, just graphic examples of the truth of Saddam.
Even if we supplied the weapons, Saddam didn’t have to use them. If I own a gun, I’m not guilty of murder unless I use it on someone. Nice smear by association. I thought you lefties disapproved of "McCarthyism".
Why don’t you take a pill ZsaZsa?
The germ theory wasn’t widely known then, especially to a bunch of ignorant cowboys.
The present bunch of ignorant cowboys know about it.
Dave: Like Lieberman and Zell Miller?
DOC D WANTS TO GET SOME PUSSY…REMEMBER OLD RETIRED FART…YOUR STAFF WAS BROKEN…
Dave: Mine is a cause and effect relationship. Yours isn’t. See the difference?
Michael: Hate to disturb your hatespew, but Hitler was a pagan.
MikeA: I appreciate your balanced outlook on what I wrote about socialism and fascism. They are superficially different, but as you so rightly state, to the man in the street there is little difference. I think even the differences you point out are only slightly different ways of practicing their necessary imperialism. Because they are not creative, economically, both systems must acquire additional resources from elsewhere to produce economic growth. The fascists, being more nationalistic, use military force, where the communists use political agitation(like the current immigration demonstrations) to undermine from within. The end result is the same, though. My evaluation of the two is based on outcome, not meaningless intellectual detail differences. The description of capitalism and fascism coexisting is why I use the term "free people making free choices" to describe my favorite economic system, since it starts with free people, who do not exist under either socialism, communism or fascism. That is the significant difference to me. I don’t give a fig for the detail differences between socalism, communism and fascism; they do not support individual freedom and independence, and are thus all the same to me. There is only a degree of difference in the essential slavery of the people under those systems. Ours is govt by the people, for the people. Theirs is people by and for the govt.
"I think the USA needs every penny it get its hands on particularly hard currency."
All the more reason to fund neither the United Nations, nor the $2 to $4 billion rehab of UN headquarters. If you think that pitifully failed organization is worth saving, you pay for it. Impose another tax on the moribund European economy. Take up a collection at the next Davos International Forum. Better yet, sell membership seats on that new and improved Human Rights Commission… kinda like we sell seats on the NYSE. Or is that maybe being done already, under the table. Hold a bake sale. Any longtime listener of Rush Limbaugh can help you out with that one.
Whatever you do, just don’t expect the US to pay for it. We need every penny we can get our hands on, remember?
Robert108…I appreciate you clarifying that definition for claxtone. I am not a Socialist by any means. BUT, I could take a guess at someone else who just might be? I don’t take any of the insults from this type of individual seriously. Anyone who believes the attacks on the Twin Towers were staged demolitions is beyond help or reason. I sometimes think posters like "diane" and "michael" hop from site to site, asserting positions wildly divergent from the majority just for kicks. I bet "diane" plays the role of the wide-rumped, NASCAR-loving white frump who "accidently" stumbles onto the Daily Kos, for example. Given the lack of love the person calling himself "michael" and "diane" today on this site must experience in real life, no wonder he sets up the little flirtations between his two characters as a means of assuring himself that somewhere, someone loves him.
Michael…Your constant rude and hate filled comments might turn you and diane on? BUT, your arrogance and ignorance is shallow and empty. Any integrity you might have started out with has vanished because of your obvious superiority complex. If you are trying to be convincing??? You might want to let the sunset on your rude name calling and anti Americanisms?
Excuse me for coming late to the party, but what is the point of discussing the purported religous beliefs of A. Hitler? Why is that important?
Michael– By the people in a general election? I think not. They were "elected" by a small group of followers. I guess it is time for a review of European History.
The reality of course is that the USA cannot even afford to pay their UN dues, losing the ground rent in NY and the loss of revenue from UN Diplomats would be a severe blow,
I hate to contradict your latest infantile suggestion but Hitler made many comments/statements which would contradict your latest misapprehension. Indeed he used God and religion in much the same way as Bush.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler’s "evil" have eliminated Hitler’s god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler’s God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:
Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible’s God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery’s coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler’s most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler’s stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one’s own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican’s Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:
Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.
Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.
Future generations should remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace.
The following quotes provides some of Hitler’s expressions of his belief in religion, faith, fanaticism, Providence, and even a few of his paraphrasing of the Bible. It by no means represents the totality of Hitler’s concerns. To realize the full context of these quotes, I implore the reader to study Mein Kampf.
The purpose of this text intends to dispute the claims made by Christians that Hitler "was an atheist," or "anti-religious," and to reveal the dangers of belief-systems. This text in no way attempts to give endorsement to anti-Semitism.
Michael– It sounds like you are not a US citizen. Please correct me if I am wrong. This information could help understanding.
The UN also gives each country the right to ask for assistance at any time. This was used to authorize our defense of newly created Bosnia-H as the former Yugo broke up. Countries do not require the UN to authorize force for self defense. We in the USA do not recognize the UN as any final authority and our democratic election of president brought up this very issue. One presidential candidate hinted that UN authority was necessary and the other said the opposite.
Here would be my position and that of the present administration:
America and Britain say the no-fly zones are designed to protect Iraqi Kurds and Shi’ites, and were imposed to support UN resolution 688 telling Iraq to halt the repression of civilians. But Iraq maintains that they are illegal because they were not approved by the Security Council.
One of the obvious problems with the UN is that they talk and do not act. One obvious strength of our CINC is that he talks and backs it up with action. I would say that this indicates integrity. He campaigned on what he would do, was elected, and then did it. Good man. Strong, stands by his convictions. Same, I believe with his belief in God.
I would rather have a man of God than a Pagan.
"Robert won’t need to worry until he’s drafted , becomes unemployed, experiences 20% inflation, 15% interest rates. Only then he will question what has gone wrong and why has a good Bush baby become a victim."
I already experienced them during the Carter regime. Nice ignorance on your part.
I have yet to see this ZsaZsa creature write anything which would suggest even minimal intelligence. As for her claims of name calling, I think if she takes the trouble of looking back on this thread she will notice that I’m the victim not the perpetrator or the originator.
Tab: Another ignorant Marxist, I see. The "infected blankets" myth poses one problem: The germ theory wasn’t widely known then, especially to a bunch of ignorant cowboys. One more leftie lie laid to rest. Your ancestors, whoever they are, undoubtedly killed many "innocent" people on their way to occupying their present territory. Get some persepective. Shed your nineteenth century ideology and get into the present time!
Clax,
How does one qualify as a NAZI ? Or is that just name-calling?
BatOne– I agree with you. That type of misleading lie is very much like what Stalin did to his slaves in Russia (USSR).
What has changed from the 19th century Robert? U were assassinating your presidents then, before that and even in this century. U have been assassinating popular leadership whenever u found it convenient. U r the only ‘power’ that attained the status thru death and destruction then as now by developing WMDs and attacking weak, third world countries. Whoever saw u take up an adversary who had comparable ordnance? And your bravado has been exposed by naked unarmed Vietcong and Iraqis who r using nothing advanced than crude bombs. Your braves r so brave that they rape boys and women in prisons and even their own compatriots who cant go to the loo in deserted afternoons and at night because of being way laid. U r so advanced that u fire from miles off and beat the hell out of there. And even then get PTSD so that u r unable to meet your recruitment demands.
My ancestors, if at all they fought over and won anything were chivalrous and fought against heavy odds. They only fought those who came out to do battle in the field, not attack women and children in their homes. Nothing has changed my dear…not even your bigotry!
Excuse me for coming late to the party, but what is the point of discussing the purported religious beliefs of A. Hitler? Why is that important?
It became important when an idiot said Hitler was a pagan, it’s simply not true, he professed his belief in God in much the same way Bush does and both used God to justify their non-Christian actions.
"I think his claims that he has an association with God will inevitably be associated with the actions he has taken."
Michael,
In other words, you have no documentation to support for your contention that Mr. Bush has been "using God" to justify his actions… merely your unsubstantiated, hyperbolic say-so.
Just as I thought.
As for your contention that the invasion of Iraq was "illegal." Perhaps, in a very limited sense, you might have a case. But then, by your definition, the invasion of France by Nazi Germany was every bit as "illegal" as the Allied invasion recapturing France in 1941. Neither action was sanctioned by the UN, was it?
Of course, the truth is that for most Americans, the United Nations is nothing more than a morass of corruption, ineptitude, and self-serving incompetence. It is plainly a failed, useless, woefully expensive and altogether frivolous indulgence that has yet to establish, even once, that it is capable of doing anything with even a modest level of competence such as to justify its existence. To suggest that the United States owes any sort of allegiance or fealty to the UN is simply ludicrous.
Is that sort of attitude "arrogant" and self-serving enough to engender the disrespect of others around the world? No doubt. But there is nothing in the US Consitution about the United Nations, even if that organization were blessed with some small measure of competence or integrity.
So while you may certainly rant on about "illegality" and the UN, I doubt that you’ll find many people that actually give a shit one way or another about the failed farce that is the United Nations. Heaven knows, I don’t.
As I said earlier, the USA should be kicked out of the UN , it only behaves in an obstrubtive way in any case. The EU already pays for more than the USA is supposed to,
YearResolution Vetoed by the USAIf Multiple![]()
Condemns the Israeli incursion and killings in Gaza.
ResolutionsVoting Figures
For-Against1972Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids. 1973Afirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories. 1976Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians. Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories. Calls for self determination for the Palestinians. Afirms the rights of the Palestinians. 1976Condemns South Africa’s attempts to impose apartheid on Namibia.2 1976For the admission of Vietnam to the United Nations.5
(from 1975) 1977Condemns the apartheid situation in South Africa.3 1978Urges the permanent members (USA, USSR, UK, France, China) to insure United Nations decisions on the maintenance of international peace and security. 119-2Criticises the living conditions of the Palestinians. 110-2Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories. 97-31978Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. 119-11979Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with the apartheid South Africa. 114-3Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa. 132-3Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement. 134-3Concerns negotiations on disarmament and cessation of the nuclear arms race. 120-3Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel. 121-3Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations. 111-2Requests a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries. 120-2Offers assistance to the Palestinian people. 112-3Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories. 118-2Calls for protection of developing counties’ exports. 111-2Calls for alternative approaches within the United Nations system for improving the enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms. 136-1Opposes support for intervention in the internal or external affairs of states. 104-2For a United Nations Conference on Women. 121-2To include Palestinian women in the United Nations Conference on Women. 122-2Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations. 112-11980Requests Israel to return displaced persons. 96-3Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people. 118-2Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories.3118-2
119-2
117-2Afirms the right of self determination for the Palestinians. 120-31980Offers assistance to the oppressed people of South Africa and their national liberation movement. 137-31980Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation. 134-1Endorses the Program of Action for Second Half of United Nations Decade for Women. 132-3Declaration of non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states. 110-2Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right. 120-1Calls for the cessation of all nuclear test explosions. Calls for the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples. 1981Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries. 123-1Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes. 126-11981Condemns activities of foreign economic interests in colonial territories. 133-3Calls for the ending of all test explosions of nuclear weapons. 118-2Calls for action in support of measures to prevent nuclear war, curb the arms race and promote disarmament. 78-3Urges negotiations on prohibition of chemical and biological weapons. 109-1Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights. 135-1Concerns changes to the United Nations accounting methods. 127-11981Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions.7145-1
124-1
136-1
129-2
126-2
139-1
138-11981Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles. 1981Demands that Israel cease excavations in areas of East Jerusalem considered by the United Nations to be part of the occupied territories. 114-2Condemns Israel for bombing Iraqi nuclear installations. 108-2Condemns Israeli policy regarding living conditions of the Palestinian people.2109-2
111-2To establish a nuclear weapon free zone in the Middle East. 107-2To establish rights for the Palestinian people.2121-2
119-3To clarify the status of Jerusalem. 139-2Discusses Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip. 141-2Concering the rights of displaced Palestinians to return to their homes. 121-3Concerning revenues from Palestinian refugees’ properties. 117-2Establishment of the University of Jerusalem for Palestinian refugees. 119-2Concerning Israeli human rights violations in occupied territories. 111-2Condemns Israel closing of universities in occupied territories. 114-2Opposes Israel’s decision to build a canal linking the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Palestine and other Arab territories. 115-2Affirms the non-applicability of Israeli law over the Golan Heights. 121-21982Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.6
(1982-1983) 1982Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier. Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967. 1982For the ratification of the convention on the suppression and punishment of apartheid. 124-1To promote international action against apartheid. 141-1Condemns apartheid in sports. 138-1Calls for the cessation of further foreign investments and loans for South Africa. 134-11982Calls for the setting up of a World Charter for the protection of the ecology. 111-1Sets up a United Nations conference on succession of states in respect to state property, archives and debts. 136-1Nuclear test bans and negotiations and nuclear free outer space.3111-1
114-1
138-1Supports a new world information and communications order. 131-1Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons. 95-1Development of international law. 113-1To prevent the exclusion of certain United Nations employees. 129-1Protects against products harmful to health and the environment. 146-1Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 131-1Implementation of the Charter of Economic Rights and Duties of States. 141-1Concerning the adequacy of facilities of the Economic Commission for Africa in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia. 132-1Development of the energy resources of developing countries. 146-1Restructuring international economic relations towards establishing a new international economic order. 124-11983Afirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes. 131-1Resolutions against apartheid South Africa.4110-1
149-1
140-1
145-1Prevention of an arms race in outer space. 147-1Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights. 132-1Concerning international law. 110-1Concerning the Transport and Communications Decade in Africa. 137-1Prohibition of manufacture of new weapons of mass destruction. 116-1Reversing the arms race. 133-1Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons. 98-1Requests a study on the naval arms race. 113-1Concerning disarmament and security. 132-1Strengthening the United Nations to respond to natural and other disasters. 126-11984Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies. 121-2International action to eliminate apartheid. 146-21984Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon. 1984Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States. 134-2Condemns Israeli attack against Iraqi nuclear installation. 106-2On the elimination of racial discrimination. 145-1Affirms the rights of the Palestinian people. 127-2For the convening of a Middle East peace conference. 121-3Prohibition of new types of weapons of mass destruction. 125-1Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons. 84-1Concerning the law of the sea. 138-2Concerning Israeli human rights violations in occupied territories. 120-2Condemns assassination attempts against Palestinian mayors. 143-2Condemns Israel for failing to place its nuclear facilities under international safeguards. 94-2Concerning a nuclear test ban. 123-1To study military research and development. 141-1Commemorating the 25th anniversary of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples. 143-1Proposing economic assistance to the Palestinian people. 146-1Support for the United Nations Industrial Development Organsiation. 118-2Concerning the Industrial Development Decade for Africa. 120-1Questions regarding the Economic Commission for Western Asia. 123-21985Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon. Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories. 1985Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development.3134-1
130-1
133-1Measures to be taken against Nazi, Fascist and neo-Fascist activities. 121-21986Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law. 1986Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians. Calls on Israel to respect Muslim holy places. Condemns Israel for sky-jacking a Libyan airliner. 1986To set up a zone of peace and cooperation in the South Atlantic. 124-1To eliminate existing imbalances in the information and communications fields. 148-1To Strengthen of international security. 126-1Dialogue to improve the international situation. 117-1For the establishment of a comprehensive system of international peace and security. 102-2Declaration on the right to development. 146-1Measures to improve the situation and ensure the human rights and dignity of all migrant workers. 148-1Protection against products harmful to health and the environment. 146-11987Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians. Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians. 145-21987Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon.2 Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon. 1987Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States. 153-2Calls for compliance in the International Court of Justice concerning military and paramilitary activities against Nicaragua and a call to end the trade embargo against Nicaragua.294-2
94-2Measures to prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism, convene a conference to define terrorism and to differentiate it from the struggle of people from national liberation. 153-2Resolutions concerning journalism, international debt and trade.3140-1
154-1
131-1Opposition to the build up of weapons in space. 154-1Opposition to the development of new weapons of mass destruction. 135-1Opposition to nuclear testing.2143-2
137-3Proposal to set up South Atlantic "Zone of Peace". 124-11988Condemns Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories.5
(1988-1989) 1989Condemns USA invasion of Panama. Condemns USA troops for ransacking the residence of the Nicaraguan ambassador in Panama. 1989Condemns USA for shooting down 2 Libyan aircraft. 1989Condemns USA support for the Contra army in Nicaragua. Condemns illegal USA embargo of Nicaragua. Opposing the acquisition of territory by force. 151-3Calling for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict based on earlier UN resoltions. 1990To send three UN Security Council observers to the occupied territories. 1995Afirms that land in East Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory. 1997Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.2130-21999Calls on the USA to end its trade embargo on Cuba.859-2
88-4
101-2
117-3
138-2
143-2
157-2
155-22001To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Condemns Israel for acts of terror against civilians in the occupied territories. To set up the International Criminal Court. 2002To renew the peace keeping mission in Bosnia. 2002Condemns the killing of UK worker for the United Nations by Israeli forces. Condemns the destruction of the World Food Programme warehouse. 2003Condemns a decision by the Israeli parliament to "remove" the elected Palestinian president, Yasser Arafat. ?-1Condemns the building of a wall by Israel on Palestinian land. ?-?2003To end the USA’s 40 year embargo of Cuba. 179-32004Condemns the assassination of Hamas leader, Sheik Ahmad Yassin. 2004
I’m the one sticking to the facts. Of course Iraq was invaded illegally, without an UN Resolution authorising an invasion it was clearly illegal. There was also no UN Resolution authorising the "no fly zones" he was then quite entitled to shoot at our planes. Your President or Congress doesn’t have the right to override International Law, no country has, regime change itself is illegal and contrary to the Geneva Convention. What kind of world would we live in if every country thought they had the right to ignore International Law? What’s to stop China invading Taiwan in order for regime change?
The estimate of 130,000 Iraqis civilians is actually on the low side, true you don’t do body counts although an occupying power under the Geneva Convention is required to record all deaths, but to continue to lie and minimise the number is a disgrace.
Eurotext, as painful as icecream brain freeze.
Well that’s hardly an invasion Chief, more like a border incursion. If that’s an invasion then the USA invaded Pakistan in the last few weeks.
Robert, what’s Michael’s "hateful agenda"?Why do you think his intentions are bad? You ought to see that the burden of proof lies with you and your intentions, insofar as you have sanctioned an awful lot of killings. You cannot turn it around like this. This constant reference to "hatespew" is not acceptable – where’s the hate in opposing a controversial war? It doesn’t make sense. And he’s arrogant, because he doesn’t agree that the US was the deciding factor in WWII? Silly.
Michael– Appointed. Not elected.
Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) over the course of his lifetime went from Socialism – he was editor of Avanti, a socialist newspaper – to the leadership of a new political movement called "fascism" [after "fasces", the symbol of bound sticks used a totem of power in ancient Rome].
Mussolini came to power after the "March on Rome" in 1922, and was appointed Prime Minister by King Victor Emmanuel.
Michael: Now we know what the driving force is behind your hate. You share the delusion that Bush=Hitler. In your tortuous logic, which leads you to claim that GB and USSR won WWII, has also lead you to all the rest of your wrong conclusions. Garbage in=Garbage out.
http://zzpat.tripod.com/cvb/oct_2004/bush_god_speaks_through_me.html
Bush had tears in his eyes when he replied, according to an Amishman who was present. Bush reportedly said he needs the prayers of the Amish and that having a strong belief in God is the only way he can do his job.
At the end of the session, Bush reportedly told the group, “I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn´t do my job.’
Michael: I don’t care if you converse with me or not, considering your hateful agenda. After your distorted take on WWII, I don’t respect anything you say. I am open to hearing something reasoned and reasonable from you, but haven’t yet seen anything remotely like that.
Michael– Worked for, or in the USAF. Incursion, eh? 20-20 vision is great for those who were not there putting their lives on the line to defend Saudi Arabia from a dictator. Was the British invasion for Washington, D. C. in 1812 an incursion? How about the Battle of New Orleans in 1815? Would it be illegal since the Napoleonic wars were over. By the way, would you consider Napolean a facist? He was not elected and certainly had strong nationalistic tendencies. He marched much farther than Hitler did to be turned away by the Russian winter.
100,000 is much less than 7,000,000.
http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/2006/01/nyt-communist-since-1920s.html
But even one death is too many. Saving or preventing even more. What should the President of Chad say about his Civil War today? Our President tells the truth, gives references to his sources. Our last president’s main purpose was to maintain power. Reading MY FBI at this time. Good read, very revealing. I have not come to a judgement on the FBI director yet.
yeah i guess cleansing is kind of an extreme ideology…
I know you are all going to love this![]()
GOD HATES LIARS.http://www.godhatesrepublicans.org/
EXODUS 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
LUKE 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not
bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
ISAIAH 32:7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with
lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.
PROVERBS 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
GOD WANTED HUMANITY TO PRESERVE THE EARTH, NOT DESTROY THE
ENVIRONMENT
REVELATION 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they
should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and
them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
GENESIS 1:25-26 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every
thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make
man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl
of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth.
LUKE 12: 41-46 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him , and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
GOD HATES WARMONGERS AND WAR PROFITEERS.
MATTHEW 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
JOHN 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall
have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
ISAIAH 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because
they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of
Israel, neither seek the LORD!
EXODUS 14: 13-14 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the
LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them
again no more for ever. The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
ROMANS 12: 18-21 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved,
avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith
the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt
heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
GOD HATES HYPOCRITES.
MATTHEW 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of
heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
MATTHEW 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a
pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
MATTHEW 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make
one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
MATTHEW 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and
cumin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to
have done, and not to leave the other undone.
LUKE 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
GOD HATES THOSE WHO WORSHIP FALSE IDOLS.
JOHN 3: 14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted
up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Numbers 21:8-9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it
shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a
serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
2KINGS 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in
pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense
to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
THE RICH ARE OBLIGATED TO HELP THE POOR; THOSE WHO WILL NOT ARE
DAMNED.
Exodus 22:25 If thou lend money to [any of] my people [that is] poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an
usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Deuteronomy 15:7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy
land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy
poor brother.
Psalms 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of
idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Luke 14:7-14 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out
the chief rooms; saying unto them, When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the
highest room; lest a more honorable man than thou be bidden of him; And he that bade thee and him come
and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. But when thou art
bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee,
Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. For
whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Then said he also
to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither
thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee. But
when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they
cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
THOSE DOING SATAN’S WORK CLAIM THEY ARE WORKING IN GOD’S NAME.
MATTHEW 7: 21-29 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have
we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore
whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his
house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that
house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and
doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain
descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was
the fall of it. And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his
doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY LEADERS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS, THEIR
CORPORATE SPONSORS, AND EVERY VOTER WHO SUPPORTS A
REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE IN THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO HELL
UNLESS THEY REPENT AND WITHDRAW FROM THE PARTY OF SATAN!!!
FOR THIRTY YEARS THE REPUBLICANS HAVE:
• LIED TO GAIN POWER,
• UNDERCUT ANY ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS
• LEAD US TO WAR FOR THEIR OWN VANITY AND PROFIT
• INDULGED IN EPIC HYPOCRACY
• MADE A FALSE IDOL OF MONEY, THE AMERICAN FLAG, AND EVEN OF
STONE MONUMENTS CARVED WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
• WORKED TO BANKRUPT AND STARVE THE POOR, WHILE ENABLING
THE WEALTHY TO ELEVATE THEMSELVES TO THE STATUS OF KINGS
• AND WORST OF ALL, THEY HAVE DISGUISED THEMSELVES AS
RIGHTEOUS MEN OF GOD WHILE DOING THE WORK OF SATAN ON EARTH!!!
For evidence of these claims, enter our web site and learn the Truth! God has been deliberately misquoted and misinterpreted by these modern hypocrites and Pharisees for far too long! It’s time to take our God and our Nation back!
cdusa: His words speak for themselves. He isn’t simply dissenting, he is arrogantly casting everyone who disagrees with him as being inferior to him. Read his stuff; it will answer all your questions.
Michael,
Having actually read the entire article, I’m convinced that Mr. Bush was doing nothing more than sharing his personal faith with other deeply religious persons in the room.
In any event, you have yet to make a connection between the President’s faith and the actions which you choose to see as "illegal." And you have yet to prove your allegation that he has "… used God to justify (his) non-Christian actions."
Care to try again?
Having actually read the entire article, I’m convinced that Mr. Bush was doing nothing more than sharing his personal faith with other deeply religious persons in the room.
I think his claims that he has an association with God will inevitably be associated with the actions he has taken.
In any event, you have yet to make a connection between the President’s faith and the actions which you choose to see as "illegal." And you have yet to prove your allegation that he has "… used God to justify (his) non-Christian actions."
Of course he has, no doubt about it. It’s not in dispute that the ivasion was illegal. Otherwise perhaps you can say which UN Resilution authorised it? Also perhaps you can also explain why Powell went to the UN with a pack of lies in order to try and get authorisation?
In that case batone you are wrong again. Clearly the Republican right has used Christianity to further their political goals, I think it’s rather foolish of you to try and pretend otherwise.
Michael– The Weimar Republic was disbanded. Hindenburg virtually announted Hitler. The actual act is found here:
On March 23, the newly elected Reichstag met in the Kroll Opera House in Berlin to consider passing Hitler’s Enabling Act. It was officially called the "Law for Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich." If passed, it would in effect vote democracy out of existence in Germany and establish the legal dictatorship of Adolf Hitler.
2Hotel9 — Yes it was. Too bad more people don’t take the time to read and get facts. Since the late 1960s there has been a planned, in my observation, effort on the part of the NEA and others to dumb down children in the USA. The effort prevents students from having even access to facts and are spoon-fed propaganda from the social-democrats who they give their tribute from forced union dues.
its not Stalinism Batsy, its MATH…
Michael– You haven’t indicated your nationality yet. Want to answer?
You may not be old enough to remember the long string of Russian vetos at the UN in the 50s-60s. It is communists that do what you have typed. Not democracies. It was Saudi Arabia that asked for help when Iraq invaded that country, their third invation for? oil maybe?
We differ on the definition of facism. I take your definition as a twisting of truth and the acceptable definition. I will make a note.
We also differ on what you call international law. We have a constitution in the USA that does not and will not require an international review or approval for our actions. They are rife with corruption as the documented "food for oil" program including France, Germany and Russia who combined took or mis-took somewhere around 5 billion dollars. This fact alone seems to taint their combined actions. That would be an example of non-war for oil.
We also disagree on any connection with President Bush’s belief in God and actions he may take to defend his people who elected him from harm. I feel safe with our present administration as a sheepdog.
As for your contention that the invasion of Iraq was "illegal." Perhaps, in a very limited sense, you might have a case. But then, by your definition, the invasion of France by Nazi Germany was every bit as "illegal" as the Allied invasion recapturing France in 1941. Neither action was sanctioned by the UN, was it?
What a dumb thing to ask, the UN didn’t even exist at the time.
Of course, the truth is that for most Americans, the United Nations is nothing more than a morass of corruption, ineptitude, and self-serving incompetence. It is plainly a failed, useless, woefully expensive and altogether frivolous indulgence that has yet to establish, even once, that it is capable of doing anything with even a modest level of competence such as to justify its existence. To suggest that the United States owes any sort of allegiance or fealty to the UN is simply ludicrous.
The UN is what we make it, we are the UN all of us, particularly those that live in the nations of the Security Council. Of course the USA has tried every means to undermine it, they are not worthy of membership. Fancy going to the UN to try and get approval for the invasion of Iraq, failing to get it and then going on to invade anyway.
Is that sort of attitude "arrogant" and self-serving enough to engender the disrespect of others around the world? No doubt. But there is nothing in the US Consitution about the United Nations, even if that organization were blessed with some small measure of competence or integrity.
The USA doesn’t recognise International Law, but that doesn’t stop other nations applying international law to the way the USA behaves. As I said early, supposing China claims Taiwan has WMD, links with terrorism and invades tomorrow or perhaps using nuclear killing every US Gi on the island. What would the USA do, claim China had ignored International Law?
So while you may certainly rant on about "illegality" and the UN, I doubt that you’ll find many people that actually give a shit one way or another about the failed farce that is the United Nations. Heaven knows, I don’t.
I know you don’t give a shit, it’s the same arrogance of the Nazis in 1939. By the time the Nuremberg trials came along they began to pay attention.
Mussolini came to power after the "March on Rome" in 1922, and was appointed Prime Minister by King Victor Emmanuel.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Mussolin_EarlyCareer.asp
Mussolini preached forcible restoration of order and practiced terrorism with armed groups. In 1921 he was elected to parliament and the National Fascist party
Chief…I believe he said he is from England. He is probably having tea and crumpetts.
" Frankly I would like to see the USA removed from the UN entirely, much in the same way Nazi Germany left the League of Nations…"
Ah ha! Finally! Something we can agree on. Let’s close the Turtle Bay campus tomorrow. The staff members and "diplomats" will be placed under house arrest until the FBI has a chance to gather up all the paperwork and other evidence relating to the Oil-for-Food scandal. Those persons shown not to be involved will be released and placed on a flight of their choice, either to their home country or to Belgium, France, or Switzerland, just as soon as they pay all their parking tickets.
American financial support of the corrupt organization stops immediately, as does our involvement in any of the UN’s so-called "peace-keeping missions." We will support those who support our ideals, and work against those who don’t. Simple enough.
The UN’s former Eastside complex will be turned over to Donald Trump for redevelopment, with the understanding that one half of all profits will go to a fund for the surviving immediate family members of US servicemen and women killed by hostile action in the line of duty.
Damn, that felt good!
Michael– You haven’t indicated your nationality yet. Want to answer?
I’m English complete with blue eyes.
You may not be old enough to remember the long string of Russian vetos at the UN in the 50s-60s. It is communists that do what you have typed. Not democracies.
Would you like me to list all the UN Resolutions the USA have vetoed? It’s a pretty shocking list and suggests that the USA is not a force for good in this world but evil.
It was Saudi Arabia that asked for help when Iraq invaded that country, their third invation for? oil maybe?
Are you writing about Kuwait? Iraq in fact claimed that Kuwait was horizontally drilling into Iraqi oil fields, not sure if was true or not.
We differ on the definition of facism. I take your definition as a twisting of truth and the acceptable definition. I will make a note.
My definition was exact, I’m sure you would agree that it’s not necessary to have a dictator in charge of a country that pursues fascist policies.
We also differ on what you call international law.
International Law is compiled by the United Nations that’s an indisputable fact. What’s the point of even having International law if individual countries can choose to ignore it?
We have a constitution in the USA that does not and will not require an international review or approval for our actions.
As we can see, but unless they comply with International law they are illegal. You might well ask "what are you going to do about it?". The answer of course is that a crime has been committed and legal action can be taken at any time in the future. Bush/Blair are war criminals, circumstances may well change where both the USA and UK are willing to release them to the ICC.
They are rife with corruption as the documented "food for oil" program including France, Germany and Russia who combined took or mis-took somewhere around 5 billion dollars. This fact alone seems to taint their combined actions. That would be an example of non-war for oil.
I don’t believe that the USA in a position to criticise how the "Food for oil" was handled. All transactions went through the UN Sanctions Committee headed of course by the USA. All oil sales, purchasers of medical supplies/food were overseen by the USA. True Saddam managed other transactions outside the jurisdiction of the Committee, but US firms, sometimes using subsidiaries outside the USA, and American individuals were the main culprits.
We also disagree on any connection with President Bush’s belief in God and actions he may take to defend his people who elected him from harm. I feel safe with our present administration as a sheepdog.
I would also prefer Bush to be in the position of a sheepdog than president, he’s mentally unstable.
Trust me, kid. We’ll manage.
I think the USA needs every penny it get its hands on particularly hard currency. In the next few days we will be able to see how your Treasury and trade deficits have grown. Your economy is out of control and your only means of paying your way is to print more currency like crazy. There’s a world war going on, economic of course, and the USA is losing big time. Even Germany now exports more than the uSA, people are ditching the dollar like crazy.
A Superiority complex is an element of someones elevated opinion of themselves. Having a superiority complex suggests that he or she has a group of exaggerated repressed feelings and reactions that to try to inflate himself into believing he is superior intellectually, physically or any other aspect of his being in order to impress or belittle others. Integrity is a strong trait that suggests morality, virtue, simplicity, solidarity, soundness, and truth! Those things are all lacking in Michael’s graymatter. The intensity of his self centered superiority is magnified in every intention aimed at anyone who disagrees with him. That trait is a chronic pretensive trait for those with a superiority complex. When these individuals get the notion that they are being threatened or perhaps resisted? The verbal insults come out strong and loud.
Michael– Why don’t we concentrate on facts instead of feelings. i have nothing against feelings like hot, cold, pain, and pleasure. I personally do have a problem with the emotional feelings that some people use from time to time to divert attention from a debate on facts. Sort of like Mars and Venus.
Yours –Surely invading a country illegally on false pretences in order to steal natural resources, killing at least 130,000 innocent Iraqi civilians are not Christian practises.
Iraq was not invaded illegally. Iraq, under the leadership of Sadam Hussein illegally invaded Kuwait in the 90s. He signed a cease fire agreement. He did not comply. We helped enforce two no-fly zones, one in the north and the other in the south for almost a decade. He fired upon our planes. He violated the cease fire agreement. He gassed about 5,000 Kurds at Halabja. The UN had 17? resolutions. Our congress voted to give The President authority to use force. President Clinton signed in 1998 the Presidential executive authority for regime change. Not illegal.
We have not stolen any natural resources. I was there. I saw the pictures in Kuwait of the burning oil wells that Sadam stole. I also saw the still concreted building at the airport containing thousands of Kuwaitis entoumbed by Sadam. Iraq’s natural resources are theirs.
We have not killed 130,000 innocent civilians. I have seen the insurgents using (abusing) corpses they have killed, inviting CNN, etc or even filming on their own in an attempt to mislead our citizens. Take a read at: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/ He was inbedded with the 1/24 regiment for one year in Mosul in 2004.
Hitler in the first instance was elected into political office. True the people never elected him as Chancellor but then again Tony Blair was not elected by the people of the UK to be the Prime Minister, he was chosen by the Labour party.
I must say that I’m enjoying myself on this forum and getting the chance of straightening out a few Americans. I think I will make this my home from now on. Any chance of becoming a moderator?
"The reality of course is that the USA cannot even afford to pay their UN dues, losing the ground rent in NY and the loss of revenue from UN Diplomats would be a severe blow,"
Trust me, kid. We’ll manage.
Michael– Many people use beliefs from time to time to fool people. The proof is in their practises, not words and the fruit of their Christianity. He had neither. Same for Saddam. Same for Stalin.
Yes I agree, but I would certainly add Bush to that list and Blair incidentally. Surely invading a country illegally on false pretences in order to steal natural resources, killing at least 130,000 innocent Iraqi civilians are not Christian practises.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make apart from Christian bashing which is to be expected. You either believe or you don’t.
I’m not a Christian basher at all, in fact I am one, but I believe that people that use religion to further their evil political motives are obnoxious.
As far as our present President is concerned, I believe in his honesty,
How can you? Everyone knows he lied over Iraq.
his Christian walk
You mean his swaggering cowboy walk?
and his unwavering support of the US Constitution.
People can disagree on interpretations of words and sentences. I could exchange many with you to show that some people will stick to a belief in the face of many facts to the contrary.
Yes I can see, you are a good example.
Today, our MSM newspaper published a story in which President Bush said that he declassified certain information so that the American people could learn The Truth.
Can’t help feeling that the truth is the last thing Bush wants the people to know.
Can’t c any sense in this group of neocons and chimp supporters. But I am mighty grateful to Michael, Diane and jose for putting up historical and contemporary links to put the record straight. Am also hugely tickled by the natural humor displayed by claxton and the moderators, of which MikeAdams clearly seems to b one.
I think people like Zsa Zsa and Batone and his ilk need to get some articulate and knowledgeable help tho they seem to excel in names calling and whining. That is hardly the material that promotes any meaningful learning and specially when they profess to have no appetite for it.
Michael– Thanks for the civil debate.
I agree, both facists were elected at heads of their party. They were not elected at heads of their government. Your analogy to Great Britain and its parlamentarian rule is a good one. I just want to keep this honest so no one will make the jump from facism to democracy and then from there back to facism in the USA which is dishonest in my opinion.
I am a member of Presbyterian (PCA) Church. Brought up Methodist.
Michael- Thank you for identifying your nationality. It does help as a perspective on conversations.
I will only reply to those that we may not disagree on yet and do appreciate this time.
Iraq invaded Saudi Arabia. We were invited by the Saudi government in case of that instance.
Jan 30, 1991. The first major ground battle of the Gulf War was fought at the frontier port of Khafji in Saudi Arabia; eleven US Marines were killed.
The US did not join the League of Nations after WW I. In my opinion, we should have taken that example in regards to the UN, but that issue should be decided soon.
I think I understand your position. The US should do nothing outside its borders without UN approval. That would be nice, for sheep. Sheepdogs know that the wolf is always waiting at the door. We tend to shield the sheep. If the UN could do something about the 120 million people killed during the USSR’s communist reign, I might give them some respect. If they could even have done something about the genocide in Rwanda… but no. http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/rwanda.htm
All they do is talk. The world now knows to stay out of the "International court" ! Their method of operation is to talk and let the accused die and never come to a judgement.
I at least have clearly stated where we disagree, and you have clearly stated your definition of facism and what you want the rest of the world to do vis – a – vis the United Nations.
I recognise fascism by the way a country, their Government and their leader, elected or not, behave and the actions they take. It’s possible to have fascist government elected and agreeable to the majority, it doesn’t need a dictatorship.
I associate fascism with extreme nationalism, a belief that they are some kind of master race. a total disregard for International Law, a government that spies on their citizens and even removes those involved in education that disagree with official policy, a State that despite all the evidence to the contrary still claims they have God on their side, a state where torture and secret prison are acceptable in pursuit of their objectives, a state that invents excuses to attack other sovereign nations in order to secure natural reserves. That’s what Hitler was all about and fascism is all about.
He was also left-handed, just one of many left-handed mass murderers.
You go to the leftie hate sites, copy their spew and claim it as fact. You are a parrot. You hate America.
MikeA: Your gravatar notwithstanding, I think you are a youngfella.
Michael…Are you disappointed that Saddam is out of power? Too bad the Taliban isn’t around? You could join up and behead women for being educated. There is still hope for you though Alqaeda is still around! I have a feeling you wouldn’t have the courage to fight for freedom? The Americans who you chose to call dumb enough to believe the war is about 9-11? You have alot of nerve online hiding behind a commputer. Have you forgotten the tunnel attacks in you OWN country? AlQaeda is real and would love to see You and anyone else who doesn’t believe the way they do, DEAD. You should be ashamed of yourself and what you represent. BUT, you are not. You are a coward and an inconsiderate careless punk! Our troops deserve to be treated with respect for what they have done. Get some real reason and quit using the Liberal mantra that is fatal to the world!
Michael: You have shown, on many occasions, that you will deny, lie or spin whenever any facts are presented that disagree with your foregone conclusions.
On the contrary I’m hindered by having to stick with the truth, on the other hand you can simply make it up as you go along
A brief pause now while our American contributors do google searches in an effort to prove Batman is for real.![]()
Well, at least Michael has diverted the hate from me for a while!
Let’s see, where were we?
Dufus is building bombs next. Thinking of nuking Iran. And probbly asking Condie for another potty break.
This man and those of you who support him are turning the world into a hellhole and, of course, you are doing it knowingly (those of you with functioning brains).
Your best excuse for doing so is:
1) Saddam was bad
2) Iran is dangerous
3) We deserve to do anything we’d like to protect our little world.
Well, unfortunately for you, almost the entire rest of the world believes the following:
1) Bush is bad
2) The USA is dangerous.
3) We deserve to do anything necessary to protect ourselves against the USA and its mad leadership.
Can anyone see the resultant problem here?
Michael: You have shown, on many occasions, that you will deny, lie or spin whenever any facts are presented that disagree with your foregone conclusions.
r108…you rascal! Hitler still isn’t a socialist no matter how neatly that would fit your political framework. Seems to me that our first conversation was on that very topic…didn’t you claim that Henry VIII was a marxist?
Ah…good times.
Chief RZ I’m not in the slightest bit interested in the books which you have read which support your perverted view of history. Try readling this instead.
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/taasbh.htm
The Americans Are Stealing Britain’s History
In addition to stealing the world’s resources and the world’s inventions the Americans have, for some years now, been busy trying to steal Britain’s history. The Americans have very few military heroes of their own and so they steal Britain’s, rewriting European history in the same way that they have rewritten the history of the West (turning the Cowboys into the heroes and the Indians into the bad guys).
One favourite claim is that it was America which saved Britain during World II. Here, for example, are the plots of one or two recent American films.
* In one film, described by the Americans as `the true story of the US commando who battled nazi troops and were aided by a group of local monks’ the Greek island of Symi is liberated by Americans. In fact the liberating was done by British SAS and Special Boat Service officers working with Greek orthodox monks. American troops didn’t arrive until 1946 when the war was already over.
* A film about the Normandy landings bizarrely suggested that it was an all American affair.
* A TV series showed Americans fighting their way across Europe, pretty much on their own.
* One American film claimed that the USA Navy had salvaged an enigma code machine from the Nazis. In reality this was by the British Navy.
* An American `history’ film showed the British as Nazis. In one wholly fictitious scene a British General herded women, children and old people into a church, padlocked the door and burnt them to death.
* A film about the campaign in Burma was made before that war was even over and ignored the role of British and Commonwealth troops.
* Another film inaccurately suggested that America played a vital and possibly decisive role in the Battle of Britain in the summer of 1940.
One angry reader wrote to me to say: `I witnessed the Battle of Britain as a young lad. The Battle of Britain was won in 1940 but the Americans didn’t enter the war until 1942. The Americans have now claimed they won that. They claim they captured the Enigma (rather than the Royal Navy) and won the Battle of the Bulge (in which I was a participant).’ He and other readers who have fought alongside the Americans have written about the incompetence, arrogance and stupidity of American commanders and of American troops. ‘The Americans fight a good battle in Hollywood where everyone is firing blanks but when it’s for real they aren’t quite so sharp,’ commented one British war veteran.
These claims made by American film makers undoubtedly influence the way Americans think. But hijacking and altering history in America’s favour has now become commonplace. America didn’t even enter the Second World War until December 1941 after the bombing of Pearl Harbour by the japanese and after Germany had forced America’s hand by declaring war on them. In 1940, when Britain desperately wanted America’s help, only 8% of Americans favoured joining Britain in the Second World War. As late as May 1941 77% of Americans still opposed fighting either Germany or Japan unless their country was provoked. When Winston Churchill (the Prime Minister) and Anthony Eden (then the Foreign Secretary) negotiated the loan of 50 or 60 American rather ramshackle destroyers our so-called allies insisted that in part payment Britain hand over to America its bases in the West Indies and Newfoundland. Eden described the bargaining as `less than friendly’. When the USA Congress agreed to `support’ Britain they did it on a profit making basis. They created a scheme called `lend-lease’ which meant that Britain could defer payment on the arms supplied by the Americans for the war against Hitler. When the lend-lease scheme ended in 1945 at the end of the Second World War Britain found herself with enormous debts and was forced to borrow money from the Americans on very harsh terms. After the war the Americans refused to share any of their nuclear research (even though much of it had been done by British scientists).
Taken from Confronting the Global Bully by Vernon Coleman, published by Blue Books. Confronting the Global Bully is available from the bookshop on this website and from all terrestial and Web-based bookshops.
MikeA,
Well, yes. I suppose at some point that can be considered an advantage.
That is the truth of this situation, whatever else you want to make of it is up to you.
Puzzle, your definition of what is honorable and credible and the definition of those things held by the 62,000,000+ people who voted President Bush back into office are very different things. All we have to separate the two is the law. If you want to try and hold President to some higher standard be my guest, but I’m not buying as your standard isn’t a fair one given that you are a partisan.
Yeah, and what misleading media poll skewed by an oversampling of Democrats did you pull that number from?
This is a debacle because you and Bob Woodward say it is.
I have a feeling that you Democrats are going to get the shocker of a lifetime when this country keeps Republicans in the majority in 2006. It will be another "Nobody I know voted for Nixon" moment, except without Nixon.
Yeah, she’s onto the usual liberal mantra of "Bush = Bad"
Well, let’s see. Fox’s ratings are higher than the second and third place network news channels combined (CNN and MSNBC). Doesn’t the fact that so many people watch Fox make it, by definition, "mainstream?"
Oh come off it. The President released information to counteract criticism (and outright lies) about his foreign policy. This is what has got you really upset, the fact that the President wouldn’t sit still for the smear job Wilson was aiming at him.
Davey, the President operates within the normal checks and balances of our government. You don’t have to believe it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.
Because he is a politician and politicians use tactics, especially when they are effective.
Politicians from both sides of the aisle do this. There is nothing new here despite your faux outrage.
He did do that. But in addition to that he also authorized this release of information through Libby which, as you’ve tacitly admitted, he has the authority to do and is not illegal.
As I’ve said before, if you want to think less of the President because you think this is a "dirty trick" there probably isn’t much I say to convince you otherwise (though as a response to Wilson’s lies it doesn’t seem very dirty to me). But the point here is that nothing illegal took place.
Outside of that, you’re just blowing smoke.
Wait a minute, Fox News isn’t mainstream? The cable news leader is out of the mainstream?
You have got to be kidding me. Maybe you’re out of the mainstream.
You want to say that it was a dirty political trick for Bush to divulge the information in question in this manner? Fine. At least you’re not saying it was illegal, which is totally off-the-charts nutty. But even if Bush’s politics in this instance were "dirty," are they any dirtier that Joe Wilson and his lies?
Tangled webs, indeed.
No, Puzzle, Bush was reacting to criticism of his foreign policy. If you want to call that "settling a score" go ahead, but it is a mischaracterization of what took place.
The President can, and should, defend his policies. He is an elected leader and it is part of his job to convince Americans that the decisions he is making are the right ones. Again, I am sure that you would rather just see him sit still for Wilson’s smear job.
As for Wilson’s lies, here is a useful summary:
More here. But I suppose the Washington Post, the Financial Times and the folks responsible for two independent British inquiries are all just a bunch of lying, Bush-puppets working in cahoots to discred that "brave truth-teller" Joe Wilson, right?
Bush isn’t Nixon, Puzzle. You need to stop living in the past.
No. I have no need of additional comment moderators, we have enough as is.