Say Anything Blog

But I still don’t think the authorities in Texas have responded in the proper way.

I agree 100% there (as in all states their procedures are extremely poor)

I believe the state needs to show due cause against each family to remove the children.

Considering the family ties and no identification available how would this be possible? ( I mean, weren’t they almost all one big family?)

I also wonder if the state is going to be removing every child and her siblings that gets pregnant in the general population.  I hear it happens out here as well.

It does happen in the general population, but in quite a different scenario.
The girls in the sect are raised to believe they’re damned to hell if they don’t procreate every other year once they reach puberty. That’s the reason they are willing to marry ASAP. I don’t believe there is a parent outside the sect in normal society who would wish for their child to become pregnant at such an early age. Yes, I understand there are probably exceptions, but on the contrary there are no exceptions in the sect of YFZ.

I don’t like the way it was handled and we can only pray that the children’s daily culture can be preserved at best.

Whistler its my fault and I apologize the challenge came from me.  It must have been Pilgrim’s posts that went on and on about law enforcement being wrong to take all 400+ children.

I’m completely disagree with the idea law enforcement are “over-reaching”; we still do not about the supposed “plant” law enforcement may have had inside the sect.  Even an anonymous caller -who made numerous calls by the way- has to be investigated.  Ignore for a moment the sheer numbers in this case; suppose you have a family with two girls aged 13 and 11.  An uncle lives with the parents and two children and the police get an anonymous tip that the 13 year old is being raped and is pregnant by the Uncle.  The police investigate by interviewing the parents, the 13 and 11 year old and by finding if -in fact- teh 13 IS pregnant.  If yes, they may in fact order DNA test to prove the validity of the anonymous claims.  The police would also likely remove BOTH children from the parents home until it was proven they were not in danger.  Even though the 11 year old (or put a 6 yr old in the scenario) is not pregnant, she is in danger.  Same is true in the polygamist sect with 3 yr olds and 4 yr olds.  Their mothers are not keeping them safe from harm, they should be removed.  Additionally, the children would be questioned separate from the parents, just like these children in the sect needed to be separated from the mothers so the mothers could not influence the answer.

The fact that the EVIDENCE of 31 pregnant teenagers only supports the anonymous caller - hoax or not.  Anyone making the claims the police were in the wrong should be able to say “Okay, 31 pregnant teenages under 17, is some irrefutable evidence something horrible was going on in that compound.”

And I want some damned one to answer the only pertinent question in all this shit. Why were the children arrested and the molesters not arrested?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Either we are a nation of laws or none of us are free!

For the state to come into the compound to find the female that called and protect her while they are investigating her charges is the proper response; but that is not what happened here as far as I can tell, rather the state used those calls solely as an excuse to enter the compound and investigate a religious group they felt was breaking the law, which made them uncomfortable; but wherein they didn’t have suficient evidence to get a warrant for that cause. They then determined to remove all the children and investigate a host of issues not directly related to the complaint by the now known liar.

It was the responsibility of the state to gather sufficient evidence to investigate their suspicions first, wherein a judge would find therein lawful causes for a warrant specific to the charges. That did not happen and to make this matter worse, they removed all the children, absent any suspicions of abuse for many of them, for instance toddlers, well fed and without any evidence of physical or sexual abuse were also taken into custody and separated from their mothers without lawful cause.

Lastly, just because some or perhaps many of you find polygamy uncomfortable and the marriage - impregnation of some of them in their early teens not to yours or my liking, that state of marital affairs was common all over the globe until recent centuries, laws against such religious beliefs being a rather recent, white European construct, which restricts the religious freedom of those still believing this lifestyle is ordained of God. Yet, virtually none of us would have the guts to openly go after Muslims in this country that force their young women into marriage and wherein multiple wives are involved, albeit not legally sanctioned plural marriages. My point, no matter how poorly made is that this is a First Amendemnt (Freedom of religion)issue as well as a legal issue; and I feel that the bungling of the state will result in none or at least very few trials or convictions; and I fear if there are trials it will encourage other raids upon religious groups or homes, like for home schooling, and further undermine the rule of law and the First Amendment.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

We aren’t the authorities and obviously, no one here can answer that question 2H9.
The whole procedure is kinda what one could call ass backwards.
I’m guessing there’s no legitimate reasoning behind their strategy other than having to follow the state’s ridiculous protocol?
I know I don’t have an answer. 

Patriot, an anonymous tip is not sufficient in any means to get a warrant for the reasons I put in the post. 

Allowing it is 100% a violation of the 4th amendment.

Because of that I believe that if (and there probably is) what we fear is going on then I think the perps are going to go free.

That’s certainly not right.

Neiman I agree with you that if this was going on with Muslims in this country, then the authorities would back off.  In fact I’m sure it is.

I disagree that this is a religious issue nor is it ok because they do it in Africa.  (Maybe that wasn’t your point.) Regarding the religious angle, I believe it is within society’s rights and duties to establish things like age of consent.  (Not that the laws we have always make sense all the time.)

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Whistler: I fear that that to go after a religious group without just cause and a lawful warrant indicating the limits of the investigation, may open the door to searches and arrests of other religious groups the state finds not to their liking.

While a nation may pass laws restricting religious practices, use of narcotics in pretended religious rituals comes to mind, or even restricting marriage to one man to one woman, both of which I find agreeable and beneficial to society; I am deeply concerned about where such infringments end. For instance, in France and Germany it is unlawful for some Christian sects to indoctrinate their own children into their religious faith, it being viewed as a form of child abuse, and in a few cases only (Pentecostals), but still it has been done, those children can be forceably removed from those homes, be made wards of the state and the parents sentenced to fines and imprisonment. So, I am concerned this may be used as precedent, if convictions result, in going after other religious groups the state finds offensive.

I am only concerned about the appearance and the unfortunate possibilities involved because this is a religious sect and how it might further erode the First Amendment rights of Americans.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I agree with you that they seem to be targeting religious groups.  On the other hand THIS group may deserve a lawful investigation and the lawful results.

But they still have to follow the law even if you don’t agree with their wacko beliefs.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I agree totally.  There was no probably cause.  Therefore, all evidence is inadmissible.  We have been through this many times with finding drugs in cars when in open view, etc.  Yes, what if an anonymous caller says that Muslims in a Mosque are forcing young girls to marry.  Yes, each state determines the age of consent.  In Texas, I believe it is age 16.

Communism is evil

Anna, I am not asking anyone in the thread, hell, I can’t find anyone even mentioning the gross injustices being heaped upon these kids anywhere in the media. Of either political bent. All I see is people screeching about the dirty, evil Moromons. While muslims practice mass murder on a grandiose scale all over the world.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Patriot and the others who are reading this:

Even an anonymous caller -who made numerous calls by the way- has to be investigated.

It is incumbent upon law enforcement to at least TRY to verify an anonymous call. There have been court cases wherein it has been determined that an anonymous call is NOT probable cause to shake down or search a suspected drug dealer without verification of the caller’s veracity.

I’ll say it again...to not at least try to verify the veracity of the call, goes into the realm of deliberate indifference.

Why is THIS any different?

Anyone who reads this blog knows that I will defend the police at the drop of a hat. They should also know that I’m an opponent of Big Government - and Big Brother.

And in my not inconsiderable experience - that’s EXACTLY what you’re seeing here. And I’m not backing off a bit.

See my comment on the above post.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

And one more thing (club that baby seal, Pilgrim):

The fact that the EVIDENCE of 31 pregnant teenagers only supports the anonymous caller - hoax or not.  Anyone making the claims the police were in the wrong should be able to say “Okay, 31 pregnant teenages under 17, is some irrefutable evidence something horrible was going on in that compound.”

Just wondering.....where did the state get the right to to test those “pregnant teenagers”? Based on an anonymous, phony call? Does that mean they can come to YOUR home next and check your daughters if someone calls in an anonymous complaint?

Come ON, people....that’s my whole point.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

It’s very refreshing to see the viewpoints here.
While we all agree that the monsters that molested the girls should have their collective scrotums caught in the zipper of Life, at least the Rule of Law still matters.

I am truly encouraged to see so many fighting, no matter the temptation considering the issues involved to do otherwise, to uphold the rule of law. That is what makes America better than any other country on earth, we believe the rule of law applies to everyone, even people that disgust us!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

RebTex said:

While we all agree that the monsters that molested the girls should have their collective scrotums caught in the zipper of Life, at least the Rule of Law still matters.

That’s it in a nutshell - pun intended.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

All it takes is an anonymous phone call, and your door gets kicked in and your life destroyed. Perhaps it is time to orchestrate a wave of anonymous calls implicating senior law enforcement and elected officials in child molestation and drug production/trafficking. Get them chasing their tails and eating each other. Wonder what delicious little secrets will be found once we start tumbling the personal possessions and records of these “citizens”?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

The police clearly overstepped their bounds here.  I completely agree 2H9, I have no idea why the men who impregnated the young girls were not taken away.  Are rape victims the ones who are normally arrested? (excluding the Middle East of course)

And I completely agree that this would not have happened if it had been some Muslims and not a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon church.  But in any fashion the complete disgust I have with child molesters I still think the law should still be followed.  without the Fourth Amendment we have no liberty!

A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

Are rape victims the ones who are normally arrested? (excluding the Middle East of course)

Just thought that that needed to be repeated, louder.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Actually, the parallels of FLDS/YFZ polygamous with polygamous Muslim populations are striking.
But.. that’s a whole different topic (I just couldn’t help myself)

No, Anna, you hit in the black. If one religious group is allowed to rape 12 year olds then all groups are allowed to rape 12 year olds. Muslims are allowed to have sex with anyone the chose then everyone else is too.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem