Say Anything Blog

What most people tell you…
...many people say…

Very scientific.  Are they really paying this guy?  Must be a union job.

Technically speaking, Nowak, an Austrian human rights lawyers and professor, was appointed to the post of UN Special Rapporteur on Torture by the previous (and fatally flawed) UN Commission on Human Rights (Syria, Libya, etc,).

And while Nowak admits that he has not actually been to Iraq to verify the current information in his report, I’d be very interested to know the exact source(s) of his reported findings under the Saddam regime.  In all probabilty, they were no more authoritative than are the currently reported statistics, and less so if CNN’s pre-invasion reporting was at all relied upon.

The real funny(not) part of this is that the President is blamed for “torture” when we were running the prisons in Iraq, and now that we are no longer running the prisons, he still gets the blame.  Go figure.

Because the reporting from Iraq is so suspect. It’s difficult to judge comments such as this one from the UN man. BUT numberwise there is no comparison.  Saddam in a private moment would express rage for not being given full credit for his misdeeds.  One thing I have noticed during the last year is the increased reports of torture in Iraq. “Numerous bodies of victims of sectarian violence were found in Baghdad this morning, most bearing signs of torture!”  Is torture really becoming more prevalent???  OR has it been there all along?  A few weeks ago, Iasked my husband, “are these reports of torture leading us to a moral equivalency moment?” ...

Right. Wouldn’t want to go to Iraq and, you know, actually verify these claims he’s been hearing before throwing a bunch of gasoline on an already volatile situation.

Great advice…to bad bush didn’t know about this.

Great advice…to bad bush didn’t know about this.

Didn’t know what?

Can you actually form a well thought out argument or is this backseat smarmy sniping all you can do?

Don’t answer. We already know.

rbb: Guess you didn’t get the memo; Iraqis are running the country now.  Of course that doesn’t stop the usual leftie lying.

Iraqis are running the country nowIraqis are running the country now.

Great news, they finally stood up. Good for them.

Can you please link to a sight about our troop’s homecomings.

Great news, they finally stood up. Good for them.

Can you please link to a sight about our troop’s homecomings.

they are running the country, but they are also shooting at each other hence we gotta stay to keep thing from going Wild WILD West.

...we’re the only Sheriff in town.

..the only real Sheriff in town.

Iraqis are running the country now.

WE got rid of the first Prime Minister and we are about to get rid of the second.
Saddam’s judges keep being retired.

My jaw dropped to be honest with you. I have no doubt that torture and violence in general are significant problems facing the average Iraqi today but I would think that interviews conducted in Iraq itself would be much more informative and persuasive.

WE got rid of the first Prime Minister and we are about to get rid of the second. Saddam’s judges keep being retired.

as bad as it may seem now, we can not get out and thereby resign ourselve to let Iraq go Wild Wild West. ..its in our best interest to stay.

You know, those elections, that Parliament; that sort of stuff.  Of course, this is all a distraction, since the lefties want to blame this phony torture claim on the President;  now you can waste your time nattering about who is really running the country, instead of facing the truth that you are running out of phony smears you can use against the President, the elections are drawing near, and you guys are losing even in your politically agendized polls.  Tough tittie.  Come back to America, Dems, and maybe you will have a chance in the next twenty years.  Being the party of European Socialism won’t work here, even if you lie to try to cover up the reality of who you are.

Mike, can we agree that saying torture in Iraq is as bad now as under Saddam is just plain over the top?  Especially given the lack of on-the-ground info this guy has?

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

I would think that interviews conducted in Iraq itself would be much more informative and persuasive.

That is precisely why they didn’t do any.

r108 said

That is precisely why they didn’t do any.

I was thinking it’s probably too dangerous but you could be right.

Rob…I wouldn’t characterise it as being over the top although I wouldn’t argue too much with somebody that did. Torture was very much a government policy under Saddam and to claim otherwise would identify one as a fool. On the other hand, there are multiple sources and perpetrators of violence in Iraq today and my impression is that the liklihood of death or injury while living one’s normal daily life is as high or higher today than under Saddam. If you were a leader of a Shi’ite group in Saddam’s day then you would expect to be picked up and tortured but today the violence seems to be much more random in the sense that you can have no interest in politics but just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. In that sense I wonder if many of the people being tortured and killed today aren’t different sorts than under Saddam.

That being said, if you’re going to make such a claim then you better have solid evidence to support it and I doubt that the UN has it at present.

Mike, I have a hard time believing that violence in Iraq now even approaches what it was under Saddam.

As I’ve pointed out in previous posts, the yearly death toll from non-military violence (meaning not deaths from wars Iraq was engaged in) was about 25,000 people a year.  Even by the most liberal estimates of civilian deaths in Iraq the average is just over half that at about 13,000/year.

That’s about 12,000 people a year fewer who are dying now than under Saddam.

I should think that fact alone would be enough to dissuade you from silly comparisons to Saddam’s regime.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

  I would think that interviews conducted in Iraq itself would be much more informative and persuasive.

If you lived to bring your data out after stepping over the mounds of bodies left in the street.
Think there are westerners walking around Bahgdad?

Lots of Iraqi refugees in Jordan, Syria etc.

More torture or less, Iraq is an abattoir.

According to the U.N., which releases the figures every two months, violent civilian deaths in July reached an unprecedented high of 3,590, an average of more than 100 a day. The August toll was 3,009, the report said.

If I recall correctly, the UN pulled out of Iraq right after Saddam’s government was toppled, after their compound was hit by a huge truck bomb, killing the UN envoy to Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello, and more than 20 others.  This after they had declined the US offer of compound perimeter security.

As one might expect, the UN has declined subsequent US offers, and has only a small contingent in Iraq.

Rob…that’s why one must take great care when using statistics. The total number of deaths is an important figure but I’d have to know more before I could say either way. As extreme examples, if all the deaths occurred in one year or in a single province then the total number wouldn’t really tell us that much for comparison purposes. I know the deaths didn’t occur in a single year or in a single province but you really do have to take such considerations into account. It’s a bit of mug’s game anyway…Saddam was brutal and many many people died under his regime. Life is brutal today in Iraq…much worse than you think, perhaps not as bad as I think but it’s brutal nonetheless. Which time was more or less brutal doesn’t matter much to the guy who is dead or maimed.

Which time was more or less brutal doesn’t matter much to the guy who is dead or maimed.

That may be true Mike, but I think you also need to remember that the violence is fundamentally different in nature.  No longer is it a brutal dictator taking it out on a defenseless populace.  Now it’s a populace defending itself from extremist thugs.

Personally, regardless of the level of violence, the latter is the more preferable of situations.  Unless you’d really like to try and convince me that Iraqis would be better off with Saddam back in power.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Which time was more or less brutal doesn’t matter much to the guy who is dead or maimed.

MikeA,

A valid point, to be sure.  So, would the next guy in line to be maimed or murdered be better off and less likely to be hurt or killed if the US military just up and left?

I mean, if that guy is your touchstone in one instance, would he not also be in the other alternative case?

If you lived to bring your data out after stepping over the mounds of bodies left in the street.

No evidence; more leftie lying, like this:

Iraq is an abattoir.

We know it was under Saddam, but those who want to undermine the effort to civilize Iraq are making up their own inflammatory rhetoric, like Woof does above.  It’s an improvement, even if the numbers are comparable, because, as Rob pointed out, before they were innocent citizens who were in the wrong sect, whereas now there are a lot of bad guys getting killed(the lefties always conveniently leave that fact out), but there is no evidence that the numbers are comparable.  More leftie lying to undermine progress in Iraq, simply to “Get the President”.  I wonder when they will realize he isn’t running for anything?

…now you can waste your time nattering about who is really running the country, instead of facing the truth

The chief of intelligence for the Marine Corps in Iraq recently filed an unusual secret report concluding that the prospects for securing that country’s western Anbar province are dim and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there, said several military officers and intelligence officials familiar with its contents.

Yeah, r108 we could waste out time nattering… or we could just read what our own military reports.

[The chief of intelligence for the Marine Corps in Iraq]Devlin offers a series of reasons for the situation, including a lack of U.S. and Iraqi troops, … also local governments in the province have collapsed and the weak central government has almost no presence.

Rob 108,you watch too much Fox news,you sound like a Red neck who knows nothing outside of Idaho.Stop your Left and Right Bullshit.

  I find you amazing at denying what goes on in the real world.You sound like Jews denying that Qana masscre took place,and all the Victims were children dug up to be prtraid as the result of the Bombings.Also like Amjadi denying the Holocaust.Maybe the bodeis shown on Tv and Pictures of Dead Jews .were dug up to be displaid?!.

    Saddam`s torture is no different to the American one.It is not about numbers but Intention and Method.So unless all the evidence of the footage was done by Speilburg, then shut up.Bush knows every thing that is taking place in Iraq.He knew what some of his men were going to do before the War,this is why he announced at the beggining of the war that no American soldeir is to be Trailed for any thing they do.Do what??.

  Imagin if No vidoes were sneaked out ,and some Iraqi claims that they were tourtured by Americas or British soldeirs ,People like would have been Totally Convinced that it was leis.The little Iraqi girl who watched her Whole family abused and killed infront of her eyes, was made to be a lying Iraqi.God knows if the same would have happened to An American girl!!?.America would have bombed the whole village.

  How would you feel if some one comminted that the 9-11 did not take place.Not that their is suspicion by westerners that the Bin ladins and the Bushes are both behind it.

rob said

Unless you’d really like to try and convince me that Iraqis would be better off with Saddam back in power.

I don’t but I will say that some may prefer the predictability of state repression to the randomness of sectarian violence.

Bat One

So, would the next guy in line to be maimed or murdered be better off and less likely to be hurt or killed if the US military just up and left?

More likely I would think…the presence of the Americans is one of the few restraints on mayhem.

oops…misread your point. The next guy in line will be in a worse position when the Americans leave.

but I will say that some may prefer the predictability of state repression to the randomness of sectarian violence.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would favor the prospect of never-ending state oppression to short term chaos which will inevitably taper off to long term stability.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Rob…when you put it in those terms I agree but when you consider that many Iraqis were not direct victims of Saddam’s brutality and that they don’t know how short term the present mayhem is then it’s not as clear cut. There are certainly examples of citizens stating preferences for at least very authoritarian regimes if not as nakedly brutal outfits like Saddam’s…think of the Italians electing the Fascists or think of those complaining of the crime and thuggery in post-Communist Russia. I’m not equating the circumstances of Iraq with those situations but they do demonstrate that people will consider accepting some state control of their lives in exchange for more personal security. I imagine that the worse the violence the more control they’d be willing to surrender.

This is so cool…some agenda-driven UN jerkoff makes up some numbers and all of us discuss it as if it had some meaning.  The lying MSM has infected us all.

We see that all the time.  Some jerkoff special interest group whether public or private makes up a study and bingo the press goes hog wild to blame the US or parts thereof.

America cannot leave now,leaving behind what it created or caused.They wanted Saddam out,now he is out Iraq got worse,they should have considered this problem,as their was a lot of anger and revenge in opposite sides.Saddam should and could have been sorted out a long time ago without all this war, but at that time America had different interests- IRAN.Why do we keep on linking people`s names to Saddam and condeming them ie:British Gallaway,when RUMSFEID befor him shook his Hand and was his guest.Then America and the world knew about the Shia and Kurdish Masscres.

  These sort of things that anger Arabs and the world,the DOUBLE STANDARD.Why do you think Iran is so Angry AND HATE AMERICA? BECAUSE WE STOOD BY sADDAM`S SIDE DURING THE iRAN-iRAQ WAR.nOW WE GET A TASTE OF OUR OWN mEDICINE.

lisa spews, Rob 108,you watch too much Fox news,you sound like a Red neck who knows nothing outside of Idaho.Stop your Left and Right Bullshit.

Do you see a problem with this opening lisa? I’ll spell out the problem: You admonish robert108 for “Left and Right Bullshit” and yet do just that in your previous sentence.

You sound like Jews denying that Qana masscre took place…

People died, but it doesn’t fit the definition of a “massacre”. It’s well known that Israel took great pains to avoid civilian deaths.

Saddam`s torture is no different to the American one.

Oh. I wasn’t aware that American “torture” included feeding people into wood chippers feet first. Can you link to such things? Thanks.

So unless all the evidence of the footage was done by Speilburg, then shut up.

You’ve got a lot of nerve.

Bush knows every thing that is taking place in Iraq.He knew what some of his men were going to do before the War…

Is Bush an all knowing god or something?

God knows if the same would have happened to An American girl!!?.America would have bombed the whole village.

Yeah right. There are cities and villages where America should have bombed entirely. We didn’t.

Not that their is suspicion by westerners that the Bin ladins and the Bushes are both behind it.

And believed by people much like you.

America cannot leave now,leaving behind what it created or caused.

We didn’t cause it, we’re just cleaning up the mess.

Saddam should and could have been sorted out a long time ago without all this war…

What about his now dead sons? Just taking out Saddam wouldn’t have solved the problem of his type of thug government going on.

These sort of things that anger Arabs and the world,the DOUBLE STANDARD.

The Arab world complaining about double standards? Hahahahahaha!

Why do you think Iran is so Angry AND HATE AMERICA? BECAUSE WE STOOD BY sADDAM`S SIDE DURING THE iRAN-iRAQ WAR.nOW WE GET A TASTE OF OUR OWN mEDICINE.

No you loon. It’s because Iran’s government is infected by madness. Their leader believes that the 12 Imam lives at the bottom of a well for crying out loud!

Now blame America again like a good little sheep.

Likwik,Likwik,Her is some of your double standard again.

  If you do not consider Qana a masscre,then Colombine,and that Korish were not either,and please do not state numbers as an excuse,because then we can say that 9-11 was not a masscre either ,as more people have deid in other wars,or agrresions,Far far far higher.In 1982 one thosand and ninty three Palestinians were masscerd by christian under the command and watchfull eye of sleeping beauty SHARON,only this time they were all women,children and elderly.Poor israelis they treid to avoid it.

    Tourture is tourture whether by beheadind,chipping,burning,hanging or blowing(which seems the less painfull way to dei and fastest)maybe he got the idea from American moveus like THE CHAI SAW MASSCRE!!.

  Bush is All knowing on what is happening and what HE is going to do,that`s the difference.

  You should have bomed some citeis and villages? Name them please.

  You did not cause the war in Iraq?? What are you on, Hen ben?.their was no civil war till America created it.And NO ONE IS CLEANING NOTHING,it is getting derteir.
Saddam`s sons were young,and if you could not take him out because it would not hsve solved nothing,then why now ?.you are right it did not solve nothing but made it worse.CONTRADICTION.

  the east are so fast to learn from the west.Amjadi is no more crazy than those who beleive Jesus family are European French(priory of sion)and that they are the Great…...grand children of Jesus.Oh we must not forget GOD spoke to Bush ,maybe it is a reacuring vision he had when younger and stoned.

  Last, please tell me where i mentioned anything to do with left or right,as this is only people like you who go on about it.

  Good night.

In 1982 one thosand and ninty three Palestinians were masscerd by christian under the command and watchfull eye of sleeping beauty SHARON,only this time they were all women,children and elderly.Poor israelis they treid to avoid it.

This is probably a lie.  We now know that news agencies in that area are under the command and control of the Islamic terrorists, and the reports they generate are simply propaganda.  The so-called “Palestinians” have been the aggressors since day one of the restoration of the state of Israel to its traditional home.  That is a fact.

Amjadi is no more crazy than those who beleive Jesus family are European French(priory of sion)and that they are the Great…...grand children of Jesus.

Good comparison.  Most intelligent people can tell the difference between a work of fiction and the truth, but people like Mahmoud are so confused they think they are entitled to kill others who do not believe as they do.  Even the worst of the “da Vinci Code” idiots don’t do that.  Mahmoud is definitely crazier.

Rob108,did i see you say Probably a lei? choose either it is or isn`t.because you cannot deny it .Unless all the beheaded and chopped up bodeis were make up,with the help of Speilburg.

  A dog does not see his tail,like Amjadi you are both Fanatics who deny other people`s torture and missery.This is whu you hate him, you see too much of your self in him.

  Jesus is coming back to punish and get rid of people like you,and does not accept any form of prayer from you.It is written in the scriptures.

  Amjadi deneis the Holocaust and you deny the SABRA and CHATILA masscre.