Uh Oh: Germany’s Health Care System, Often Cited As A Model By Liberals, Is On The Brink Of Collapse

Recently liberals such as Senator Kent Conrad have been praising health care systems in places like Germany as a model to emulate here in America. Conrad, specifically, has said that Germany’s model keeps prices low while not being a government-controlled system. Here’s his own words:

Let me just conclude for my progressive friends who believe that the only answer to getting costs under control and having universal coverage is by a government-run program. I urge my colleagues to read the book by T.R. Reid, “The Healing of America.”
I had the chance to read it this weekend. He looks at the health-care systems around the world. And what he found is in many countries they have universal coverage. They contain costs effectively. They have high-quality outcomes, in fact higher than ours. They’re not government-run systems in Germany, in Japan, in Switzerland, in France, in Belgium — all of them contain costs, have universal coverage, have very high quality care and yet are not government-run systems.

Unfortunately for Conrad, Germany’s system is actually government-run. It consists of several government-managed health insurers. It also doesn’t contain costs. Germans are taxed nearly 15% of their gross income for health insurance. And it’s hardly stable. Right now Germany’s system is in serious financial trouble that will either require a hike in premiums or a hike in taxes (there are already protests in the streets of Germany over cuts in hospital budgets), though either way it’s going to mean another pound of flesh from German citizens.

Germany’s health-care system was brought to life in 1883 by Otto von Bismarck and became the model for virtually every such state-directed national insurance plan since. Alas, the German system is starting to come apart at the financial seams. Germany’s system relies on a handful of state-supported health insurers. This week they informed the government that the system was on the brink of a financial shortfall equal to nearly $11 billion.
Pointedly, the insurers made clear that cutbacks alone won’t solve the problem. They said the government would have to consider raising premiums on the insured or, you guessed it, raise taxes. Currently, German workers pay a fixed-rate premium into the insurance scheme; that rate is now set at 14.9% of gross pay.

Once again, we see that the problem with out of control health care costs is not caused by a lack of access to health care but rather a lack of choice in the health care markets. In Germany there is no choice when it comes to health care except among a handful of insurers all backed by the government. And you are required to have coverage. Instead of being a market-driven system where the insured are the customers and are responsible for negotiating their own coverage plans and paying their own premiums they have a system where by they are required to participate in what is, in fact, a government managed system of health care.
They could fix their problem with health care much as we could fix ours: Less government, more individual choice and responsibility.
Update: Here’s an interesting fact. According to figures from the Obama administration itself the percentage of income Americans pay for health care is only about 9%:

On average, middle class families with private health insurance spend $4,400 a year on health insurance premiums, deductibles, and copayments, or 9% of their household income.

Per the article above, Germans are paying nearly 15% of their gross income for health insurance. That’s income before other taxes.
Americans are already paying less than the Germans, and the Germans are on the cusp of having to pay more.

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  • http://www.correntewire.com/blog/hipparchia hipparchia

    1. that “15% of income” is paid for half by the employee and half by the employer. so people are paying only 7.5% of their income, and their employer pays the rest.

    2. an $11 billion shortfall in a nation of 82 million people works out to needing to raise taxes or premiums by about $135 per person per year [or about $11 per person per month]. that’s hardly a crisis.

  • AlphaMagnum

    The job of the Federal Government is to “Provide For The Common Defense” PERIOD! Health care is not listed in the Bill of Rights and so at best can be a State’s Right. When you check the various State Constitutions you will see they are molded upon the US Constitution and have no “Bill of Health” So what I am saying is that the various governments in the USA are in VIOLATION of their founding documents. This is not a DEMOCRACY and in fact is a Constitutional Republic so the Right vs. Left argument is FALSE since on a scale we go from no government to nothing but government. Since man started forming governments no DEMOCRACY has lasted and they all destroy themselves first by the power of the purse (like now) and then later through MAJORITY RULE.

  • sayanything-12

    AV:

    Germany spends about 11% of GDP on health care, the US is 16%. You can pretend all you like Rob but you are wrong. Germany’s system is cheaper even though everyone is covered.

    The total amount of health care purchased in Germany is lower too. This is for two reasons, one is US citizens have more treatment options than they do in Germany (the high prices does attract more supply), and the other is we have less healthy lifestyles, like people who eat too much processed foods, for example.

    And the Germans do have choice, 87.5% of Germans use the public health options.

    More proof that the public options crowds out private competition.

  • robert108

    anecdotal
    One entry found.

    Main Entry: an·ec·dot·al
    Pronunciation: \ˌa-nik-ˈdō-təl\
    Function: adjective
    Date: 1836

    1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes b : anecdotic 2
    2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers
    3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story

  • kdp

    I am a 20 year plus business owner and EMPLOYER.

    I know Many,many , many other business owners also.

    and if you REALLY beleive that WE wil just pay employees MORE if we are mandated to pay LESS benefits…then you live in a FANTASY world!!

  • John

    Of course, if there is change, it will have to be incramental over time. How bout tightening up the 300 bil in admin expenditures with standardized billing formats? What’s wrong with electronic data files and a centralized IT system. Forcing stubborn Americans about preventative care and shifting from the medical model to the wellness model. I can go on and on. Change can occur, and cost can be slowed, but not all at once.

  • Fritz

    A typical ignorant response. Thanks, Rob.

    News to me that I “just” came here bashing the United States in order to start a pissing contest about which nation is better. In all fairness, though, I did partake in a pissing contest, but one that had already been started by yourself.

    I’d like to know where I “bashed” the United States. I’m an American national, proud of my heritage and where I came from, but, yes, disenchanted and very disappointed with the path down which the United States has been taken. I, at one time, was also an American apologist but I just got sick of trying to pull endless and baseless excuses out of my ass in order to, in some way, attempt to justify the behavior of the American government and its people, past, present and future.

    Where, exacty, does “responsibilty” play a role in this scenario? Everybody pays according to their means – a percentage of their salary. At the moment I pay no more or less than I would for a premium in the United States and am not saddled with co-pays, deductibles, co-insurance, etc. I enjoy minimal to no waiting periods when scheduling an appointment with a specialist and can also rest assure that somebody younger, less fortunate or earning less than me will, if God forbid, they end up with cancer or some other horrible disease, will not be denied care or spent into irreversable debt because of something like this. Your comment regarding “responsibility” is ignorant, self-centered and to be loathed.

    And yes, I’ll take my taxes (which aren’t that much more and, in some cases, less) and unemployment (of course I’m employed) over violent crime, an ignorant public, crass materialism, out-of-control abortion rates, sheer hypocrisy and the belief that, with as much as has been written by experts about the failing American healthcare system , if I can dig up one of the seldomly written articles about the German healthcare system that actually paints it in a negative light, I’ve got ample evidence to prove that it (the German healthcare system) is a total failure and the other (the American healthcare system) is and should be the envy of the world.

    The German system is far from perfect, which can be expected by any society, but it’s a good deal, both morally and financially, for those that use it. There’s nothing wrong with stating the obvious and it is far from “bashing” the other country.

    Like I said, I love America, but more the one exemplified by the way our politicians and people speak of, not the one they lead and belong to. American on paper is not America in reality. I can deal with that but I had hoped for better for a country which, at is course, is based on something really special. Everyone talks about “American values.” The only thing with a value to most Americans is the “dollar.” And even that’s becoming more and more worthless.

    Peace Out,

    Fritz

  • chris

    Actually, germans pay 7.5% of their income on health care – the other half is covered by the employer; also: people without income and on welfare are insured.

    Check your facts, dear conservatives. Also: The system is not, in fact, breaking down, what is breaking down is the social insurance system because of the demographic changes (a lot of retirees, high unemployment rates, negative population growth) – but that mostly concerns pensions and welfare.

    It’s not perfect, but Germany has (as per CIA world fact book) about 50% lower infant mortality rates, a life expectancy that is about a year longer and pay a LOT less for health care.

    Also: of course the figure of the average american family’s expenses for health care is smallish – 50 odd MILLION of us poor schlobs are uninsured, those guys probably don’t appear in any statistic.
    Say what you will about America and god bless, but I don’t see why this Great Nation needs to be defended when it is in error – instead of being improved upon.

    Keep an open mind and don’t make up s**t just to make a good idea sound bad.

  • kdp

    LMAO….I stopped reading when you said Kent Conrad was a Liberal….LMAO!!!!

    you must be a John Bircher!!!

    I mean..DUDE!!!

  • robert108

    It’s the main characteristic of all socialized schemes: Those who don’t use it pay for those who do.
    The entire population pays higher prices for their stuff to subsidize the people who use the healthcare system.

  • Fritz

    After being in Germany for over seven years, I would never even think of going back to the States. And by the way, employees don’t pay 15% of their income into health insurance. They split the cost of their premiums with their employers (7.5% each way).

    My mom in Ohio wrote me to say she had really horrible pain in her side on Sunday evening, woke up on Monday and it was still there so she called her family doctor who was unable to get her in and had to go to an urgent care. I don’t think anything like that would ever happen here in Germany. My Doctor would find a way to see me.

    At any rate, to each his own. No country is better than the other. I do, however, enjoy my life in Germany much more than in the United States. I enjoy to progressive “thinking mentality” that doesn’t look down upon the educated and will gladly stay here.

    For all of those who would say about my decision, “good! great! don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out,” I say, “no problem!” These modern day pissing contests about which nation is better is too elementary for me. I’ve got better things to do with my time.

  • sayanything-342

    elinas needs to live in Europe. It’s not as special as his fantasy leads him to believe. Where it is true that many Europeans do travel abroad more per capita than Americans do they also own smaller homes, and have fewer luxuries like second homes, second(and third) cars, boats, snowmobiles, SUV’s, motor homes, ATV’s, large stereos, Large screen TV’s, etc. They do rely on a vast network of public transportation, which is fine if you have it, but hardly as comfortable as driving 20 miles to work in a large Ford Expedition SUV with leather heated seats during the winter months to a second home on a lake where I can jump on a snowmobile, ATV or Ski boat depending on season. Even something as simple as hunting and fishing is virtually impossible to do in most parts of Europe without tons of expensive permits.

    That’s okay, I like my lifestyle just fine and I wouldn’t change it for the European “experience” just because some people think it is “chic”.

  • J.L.

    “To vacation all over Europe all summer long! And “tons” of them come to vacation in sunny California!” Health care debate is now closed thanks to Ellinas!

  • jimmypop

    llinas did live in Europe. I have a house in Greece.
    Second and third cars are not necessary in Europe, however those that can afford them have them. Snowmobiles? Those that can afford them have them.
    Boats? Boats you say? The Mediterranean sea is full of dinghies,rowboats, motorboats
    sailboats, motorsailers motor yachts etc. So is the Atlantic coast of Europe from Portugal all the way to Norway.
    Don’t have your own boat? Never fear. You may rent one or go on a cruise.
    Large screen TV’s? They are there.
    Ski resorts up the yin yang.
    Small houses? Here are some photos of small houses in the town I was born:

    i spend two to three weeks a year in germany. i dont see ANY, ANY, ANY of what you are talking about. i dont go to the tourist traps. i know the people there. thats the best thing. get to know the average folks. fyi; be born of poor or average wealth and try to get rich in europe. good luck.

    germans have money left over? please. during one of my visits not that many years ago we found ourselves in berlin. unemployment was 20%. the government was ending the unemployment and insurance they had for everyone. nobody was going back to work. there was no need when everything was paid for you already.

    the reason they fly all over…… ryan air. check out ryanair.com before christmas and after new years. if you go anywhere in the offseason, its free to fly. YES FREE!!!!! you pay landing fees and taxes. we fly to london for $10 euro each way. we flew to rome for $15 euro each way. spain cost us $45 on lufthansa.

  • Mongol

    French system is facing a similar financial crisis. Simple truth is that the model is unsustainable in a long run. Not to mention that it is unconstitutional in US. Don’t forget to write your Senators and reps.

  • AlphaMagnum

    Ha…
    Again, show me the article or right that “provides for health insurance” You cannot but you rather tell me what I should do. Good for you there is freedom of speech but to “Require Health Insurance” is not a regulation of commerce but a violation of the Bill of Rights. You need to get back to school!

  • AlphaMagnum

    Preamble of the US Constitution…

    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    “Promote the general welfare” is not the same as “PROVIDE” and in fact when you get to the word “POSTERITY” that means the unborn and yet to be born have Constitutional RIGHTS too. So using any public money for ABORTION is directly PROHIBITED in the PREAMBLE of the US Constitution….
    Think about that!

  • sayanything-3417

    Then explain why their system covers everyone for less.

    Because you get what you pay for.

  • Mongol
  • sayanything-12

    kdp:

    and if you REALLY beleive that WE wil just pay employees MORE if we are mandated to pay LESS benefits…then you live in a FANTASY world!!

    Not automatically. But salary gets set by job market forces, and undoubtably one of those is labor costs to business. If you reduce how much benefits you pay, you can offer a higher straight salary.

  • sayanything-13486

    yes absolutely right…you get what you pay for…and today’s world is like global village so its not about Germany or any other country.

  • sayanything-453

    Hannahchandler2001,
    Two things for you:
    1)Azerbaijan is not in Europe.
    2)Azerbaijan is not by Albania and Turkey.
    Therefore you don’t know what you are talking about.

  • sayanything-453

    Nothing anecdotal about my observations of “rich” Germans.
    Why don’t you admit that you will look for evidence favorable only to your point of view, and disregard everything else?
    And since, as you claim Germany’s health care system, often cited as a model by liberals, is on the brink of collapse, it should happen soon.
    You and I will be around to witness the epic collapse before the year’s end. /sarc

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Ah, but the idea that government health care costs less is an illusion because nobody talks about the taxes you have to pay. Or the market bubbles the government interference causes.

    Look ant Fannie and Freddie. Two government sponsored companiea with dominant market share because the government decided it should be so.

    That ended well.

  • sayanything-4416

    No, they were making the loans to create mortgage-backed securities to sell. F&F were merely purchasers like so many others who were duped. The bush admin forced F&F to invest more and there were no conforming loans to buy so they had to buy the securities of toxic debt. Toxic debt rated much better by a corrupt private rating system.

    Attempting to trace all problems to “government” is disingenuous, at best. The free market got out of control several times in our history and had to be reined in. That was Teddy Roosevelt’s main thrust. It was FDR’s. And both times it worked.

    If we can blame “government” for everything, we can also blame “capitalism”. Makes as much sense.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Why don’t you look it up for yourself and tell us, Ellinas?
    But from the article it appears as though the Germans get care equivalent to
    us, but it costs a whole lot more.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Gee, and who forced Fannie and Freddie to buy those subprime mortgages?

    And wasn’t the fact that Fannie and Freddie were being induced, by the government (to answer my own question) to buy those toxic mortgages the very reason why lenders were making them in the first place?

    Of course it is.

    You’re so close to the truth, Dino, but you will not see.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    It still isn’t controlling costs is it Mr. Statist?

    The only thing that will do that is choice.

    You liberals just refuse to learn from history.

  • sayanything-256

    Germany spends about 11% of GDP on health care, the US is 16%. You can pretend all you like Rob but you are wrong. Germany’s system is cheaper even though everyone is covered.

    And the health-care tax rate you quote for Germany, of 14.9%, is the maximum, not the mean.

  • sayanything-453

    LOL, I am sure you spend two to three weeks in Germany every year, looking for the things I am talking about. /sarc
    Plus you got to know where to look for these things. Obviously you don’t.
    You will not find dinghies,rowboats, motorboats sailboats, motorsailers motor yachts in Berlin or any of the inland cities. You have to go to the coastal towns and cities.

    No, I am not talking off season travel. I am talking summer time. June through August.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    So, you think that some anecdotal observations of rich Germans proves your point?

    Why don’t you just admit that you don’t have a point, and you don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • sayanything-453

    Flapping your lips as usual.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Fannie and freddie had huge market share too in a “free market”. It is amazing what government backed market distortions will do.

    And if all these other nations can’t control their costs why should we do what they do?

    The real goal here isn’t solving health care. The goal is making people more dependent on government.

    Which I thought you didn’t like, Mr. Statist.

  • sayanything-453

    No! I am saying that someone in Germany did not budget appropriately for health care.

    That the quality of our health care for those that can afford it is the best, I question not.
    What I question is the availability and cost.
    I believe that we are paying more then we should.

  • sayanything-453

    It controls costs as much as the private health care does in the US.
    Private health care will be again to reach into the pockets of US citizens and charge them more,
    as they have done for the past 20 years.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    So we should drag our quality of care down to create universal access?

    And why would American bureaucrats be any better at managing the
    system than German bureaucrats?

  • sayanything-4416

    So it’s all a big conspiracy to make Americans look bad? The other countries are really spending more than we are and getting less?

    How much are we as individuals losing in salaries due to employer-provided coverage? How much are premiums affecting small business? Job creation?

    Insurance premiums have gone up 130% since 2000. That can’t continue and won’t.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Actually, Dino, according to figures from the Obama administration itself the percentage of income Americans pay for health care is only about 9%:

    On average, middle class families with private health insurance spend $4,400 a year on health insurance premiums, deductibles, and copayments, or 9% of their household income.

    Per the article above, Germans are paying nearly 15% of their gross income for health insurance. That’s income before other taxes.

    Americans are already paying less than the Germans, and the Germans are on the cusp of having to pay more.

    Try again.

  • sayanything-256

    “The real goal here isn’t solving health care. The goal is making people more dependent on government.” — Rob
    That’s your theory. But if one could get a similar health-care experience for two-thirds of the money then rational people would choose govt health-care. Govt health-care lets most people keep more of their own money so they can spend it on what they want.

    Paying more money so that you can have market health-care is stupid. The people profiting off of you will be laughing all the way to the bank too.

  • sayanything-256

    As you’re probably aware, health-care costs are rising in all OECD nations. As costs go up people have to pay more money. Whether it is higher through taxes or insurance premiums is a detail.

    And the Germans do have choice, 87.5% of Germans use the public health options. So much for your free-market religion that claims that private enterprise is more efficient.

  • sayanything-453

    Is the level of care the same, or are you comparing oranges to lemons?
    What do the Germans get with their 15%, and what do we get with our 9%?

  • sayanything-4416

    Even if their system requires additional funding it will still cover everyone at a much lower cost than ours.

    When you find a perfect system, whether economic, health care, defense or otherwise, let us know. Using your logic, our defense system failed on 9/11 so should be scrapped.

  • sayanything-4416

    Then explain why their system covers everyone for less.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person

  • sayanything-13047

    European health care suck in general. No I have never been there but I did live with someone from Azerbaijan (small country by Albania and Turkey) for a year and had a university full of exchange student coming and going. So don’t start with I don’t know what I’m talking about crap because I have never been there. Oh and the thing about Europeans travel abroad more it really easy to when all of Europe would fit in Texas, and one could cross a country in a few hours.
    American is the worlds leading innovator in the health field. Research is very expensive and we as free consumers foot a lot of this bill. We also get the best care generally speaking whenever we want it. There are tons of better options out there at don’t require us to sell our soul to the government for example opening up the state markets for competition by the insurance providers and tort reform is a big one.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    I suspect the other nation’s are more worried about hiding the extreme cost of their “free” health care systems from their citizens rather than from Americans.

    As for individuals losing income to employers providing health insurance, you’re right. Total compensation has grown at a reasonable rate in the United States over the last decade or so, but actual take home pay has not. The problem is that run-away health care costs are eating up the income.

    But trading in run-away employer-based insurance costs for run-away government-based insurance costs is hardly a good deal, Dino.

    The solution is to make insurance an individual responsibility.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Carrick, I wouldn’t call that crowding out which creates such a massive market share a choice.

    And I wonder how the income demographics break down for those who have opted out. Ill bet its the richest germans who have…meaning that only those with money get a choice.

    Great system.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    That’s spending per person and doesn’t include what the German government spends. Germans pay taxes for their system and premiums.

    Hell of a deal.

  • emgersh

    The 15% you quote is misleading as that covers more than just health insurance. Additionally, Germans spend little for actual services. I speak from personal experience. Also, the Krankenkassen are NOT government run health insurers. They ARE not for profit and the do have a public charter but they are NOT government run or managed. Additionally, there IS a private health insurance option for those making over a certain income. In fact, it is this option that is one of the reasons that the current system is under stress. It is the only portion fo the system that does not share the costs across all members of society. It takes money out of the basic system and diverts it to a private for profit system.

    Also, the overall costs of the German system are vastly lower than the American system. Germans pay approximately 10% of GDP for universal coverage of a much older population that is healthier and lives longer than ours. We pay about 16% of GDP, or the oft quoted 1/6th of the economy for poorer outcomes and exclusion of vast numbers of the population.

    And, we ALSO pay taxes and premiums my friend. We pay taxes for the emergency care services and public health costs as well as medicare and medicaid for those who are either aged or impoverished. This is passed through to us and our children in increasing tax burdens and debt, since we obviously won’t pay as we go.

    And your $4,400 average includes catastrophic coverage that costs little and provides less. Such an option isn’t available in Germany as everyone receives the same care.

    And all of this leaves aside any moral argument about not letting people die or fall into penury because of illness.

    if you want evidence for my statements, I’m happy to provide them and you can see if they jibe with your pre-conceived notions of this system in a country where you’ve clearly never lived or received health care. Take note, I have. As an American, I was shocked when I returned to my homeland and found a system in ruin, needlessly expensive, complex and frustrating for those WITH health insurance and impossible for all others.

    If you don’t feel that covering everyone is important or even laudable, just admit it. If you want health care to be just like any other good in the marketplace, then state that. Just don’t argue that private is cheaper or more equitable or even better (with the possible exception for congress and the very wealthy.) The evidence isn’t there.

  • sayanything-453

    I have made no claims as to whether or not the constitution provides for health insurance.
    You however pompously announced: “The job of the Federal Government is to “Provide For The Common Defense” PERIOD!
    Then you come back with a more ignorant rant.
    My challenge to you remains the same:
    Does the Federal government per the constitution have the power, for instance, to regulate interstate commerce, or the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations?

  • sayanything-453

    Are you sure that the only job of the Federal Government is to “Provide For The Common Defense” PERIOD?

    Does the Federal government per the constitution have the power, for instance, to regulate interstate commerce, or the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations?

    Please go back to school and study a bit more.
    When you have acquired enough knowledge about the constitution, come back and talk to us.

  • sayanything-453

    I, unlike you, am optimistic that we can achieve both goals. Retain the quality of care, and provide
    universal access.

    As far as your fear that the American bureaucrats, being unable to better manage the system than the German bureaucrats, there is a simple solution.
    We hire from the private sector someone that is an accomplished manager, and pay him $25 million dollars annually, give him a contract containing a golden parachute, a nice retirement, and the option to double his salary within 10 years if he does well.
    Should he fail to deliver we increase his salary by only $1 million.
    And also let us give him/her annual performance bonuses. Should he/she do well $5 million dollars annual bonus.
    Hopefully the above compensation package alleviates all your fears about a qualified person running the system.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Oh I’m sure the German politicians will be able to reach into the
    pockets of German citizens and charge them more for their “free”
    health care and prop the system up for a while longer.

    But you’ve yet to point out how the German system controls costs as so
    many liberals here in the US claim.

  • sayanything-453

    Germany’s health care system has not collapsed yet.
    But I am waiting, because Rob says Germany’s health care system, often cited as a model by liberals, is on the brink of collapse, it should happen soon.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Clearly, you don’t own a business and have no idea how labor markets work.

  • emgersh

    Oh, and one more thing. . . it appears your percentage of gross income includes the employer’s portion of the premium, which you didn’t include in your US figures. Convenient!

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    so the other half paid by employers…do you think maybe employers would pay employees more if they didn’t have to pay that?

    Of course. So really german citizens are paying that too.

    You clearly need to learn a thing or two about economics.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    These modern day pissing contests about which nation is better is too elementary for me. I’ve got better things to do with my time.

    Says the guy who just came in here bashing the United States in order to start a pissing contest about which nation is better.

    If you like government-run health care, great. Have fun in Germany with the taxes and the unemployment. I’d rather be responsible for myself.

  • sayanything-4416

    Fannie & Freddie were fine until they were forced to buy toxic mortgages from Wall Street.

    Fannie & Freddie don’t originate loans and didn’t directly buy subprime mortgages.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    So you’re making my point for me. Germany’s health care isn’t any
    better than what we already have.

    So what exactly are we changing again?

  • sayanything-453

    Ellinas did live in Europe. I have a house in Greece.
    Second and third cars are not necessary in Europe, however those that can afford them have them. Snowmobiles? Those that can afford them have them.
    Boats? Boats you say? The Mediterranean sea is full of dinghies,rowboats, motorboats
    sailboats, motorsailers motor yachts etc. So is the Atlantic coast of Europe from Portugal all the way to Norway.
    Don’t have your own boat? Never fear. You may rent one or go on a cruise.
    Large screen TV’s? They are there.
    Ski resorts up the yin yang.
    Small houses? Here are some photos of small houses in the town I was born:

  • sayanything-453

    Come summertime, go to Europe.
    Then we will talk.

  • sayanything-453

    I did!
    You would be surprised how many Germans, have lots of money left over (after having paid lots of euros for their super expensive health care /sarc.) to vacation all over Europe all summer long.
    And tons of them come to vacation in sunny California.
    I feel sorry for the poor bastards, because after paying taxes and premiums for health care they have nothing left. /sarc.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Ellinas, just so you know, you saying something you want to be true is not the same as proving it.

  • Anonymous

    Uh Oh: Germany’s Health Care System, Often Cited As A Model By Liberals, Is On The Brink Of Collapse Proof  •  October 12, 2009

    Uh Oh: The date is October 27 2011 and Germany’s health care, predicted by proof to collapse any time now, is still going on strong. 
    Proof it’s been two years, do you need more time for your prediction?

    • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ Proof

      ellinas: Don’t take this the wrong way, but don’t believe everything you read. When Rob imported many of the older SAB posts into the new Word Press platform, a number of the posts had the author’s attribution scrambled. Whistler was credited with a number of my posts, and apparently, I was credited with one of Rob’s. (At least, I’m guessing Rob from the linguistic style.)

      BTW, most of my posts, (and not a few that Whistler was credited with) conclude with

      Cross posted at “http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/”

      This one, you will note, did not. I did not author that post. Sorry to harsh your mellow.

      • Anonymous

        I forgive you for harshing my mellow.
        I remember now. This one was Rob Port’s.
        Sorry about that, bubba. I beg your pardon.

  • Anonymous

    Uh Oh: Germany’s Health Care System, Often Cited As A Model By Liberals,
    Is On The Brink Of Collapse Proof  •  October 12, 2009

    Uh
    Oh: The date is October 28 2011 and Germany’s health care, predicted by
    proof to collapse any time now, is still going on strong. 
    Proof it’s been two years, do you need more time for your prediction?

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