Say Anything Blog

Dude - the address on your map is different than the address in the Whois database.  3rd Av is different than 3rd NW.  Note that the zip codes are different too.  Be careful that you don’t cause the wrong people some trouble.

I punched the address and zip into the USPS zip validator and it cranked out the zip.

Also, if you search there is no 5032 3rd Ave in SE, SW or NE Seattle.  So I’m pretty sure its right.

But even if I’m not, I’m sure the folks at Seattle P.D. can straighten it out.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Brilliant!!  I’ll be watching for more updates.

Interesting, Regret.  Thanks.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

This may help… notice the Encinitas box.

Company Name: REALFIGHT, LLC
Business Address:  11440 W BERNARDO CT STE 157 SAN DIEGO, CA 92127-1642
Mailing Address:  P.O. BOX 235058 ENCINITAS, CA 92023
Business Commencement Date: 1/15/2001
Business Description: OFFICE, STORE AND SCHOOL FURNITURE AND EQUIPMENT STORES

Rob - Not to belabor the address issue, but as I live in Seattle, I believe the address that is in the Whois record is wrong, or perhaps is a fake. Like you said, maybe the Seattle Police can figure it out. Here’s why I say that.

The third avenue referred to in the Whois record has no directional suffix and the zip code is 98104 both of which indicate an address in downtown Seattle.  However there doesn’t appear to be a street address of 5032 on 3rd Av in zip code 98104.

The third avenue that you linked in Google maps has a zip code of 98107 which is in the Ballard or Phinney Ridge neighborhoods, north of the downtown area. Maybe that’s what they meant, but since the 98104 zip code shows in the Whois listing it makes that an unlikely mixup (at least to me).

I think these guys may have Seattle ties, but their business address and phone (until recently) were listed as Encinatas, CA. 

I unsuccessfully tried finding information about the business (the videos are copywritten by RF Productions) using various state websites.

If you have any ideas of other info to track down, post it here and I’ll see if I can help.

Using the Internet Archive “Wayback Machine”, the contact information for Realfight.com in April 2001 was:

Realfight, LLC
PO Box 235058
Encinitas, CA 92023
(760) 436-6934

Weird business description…

As for the address, I have no idea.  The zip lookup through the post office is usually pretty accurate though, in my experience, and I find people for a living.  If there were multiple possibilities for that address it would hae said so.

But you could be right too.  The whole Seattle address could be a fraud and the zip a mixup because the address is fictional.  I wasn’t able to find any listings at all for that address in NE, SE and SW...so either the address is fictional, not applicable to these folks or the zip just got messed up.

Regardless, its a small matter that I’m sure the police can clear up when they make their inquiry.

Anyway, where did you get that info on the business?  I did some business searches myself (then got distracted by a woman who wanted me to go grocery shopping) but came up short.  I checked with CA Sec. of State and Washington Sec. of State and nothing doing.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Well, that last information may be a dead end.  There’s an attorney who’s office apparently is at that address.

[...] CHECK THIS OUT. Rob of “Say Anything” is hot on the trail of a couple of heartless thugs that beat down a pair of Iraq War Vets. [...]

KISS - You certainly could be right about there being no connection, as the evidence is hardly conclusive.  But I, like Rob, find it suspicious that the person with the video camera could hang around taking these images without the perpetrators doing anything about it.

The company and the tape are not related. If they were, the footage would not be available on the evening news right now.

Excellent work Rob.  About ur question on hate crime, being a police officer I can tell you that the related penal code, in Calif at least, say’s for it to be a hate crime the crime must be initiated because of the person’s race.  If the suspects attacked them solely because they were white, then yes..it could be considered a hate crime.  Clue’s such as racial name calling and so forth can be brought up in court.

It’s a difficult charge to convict on, have only seen it done a few times.

The company and the tape are not related

KiS, that’s about as dumb as saying that they are certainly connected.

Truth is, we don’t know.  But there is reason to suspect, and I’m sure the authorities will check it out.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Not only is the cameraman moving freely among them, look at the “witness” in the last picture (first column, bottom row.) It looks like they had a second cameraman there.

I would look for a cell connection to Al Queda.  If they cannot get our troops in the Middle East, why not pay some ne’er do wells here in America to do the job?  Some of our citizens at the bottom of the food chain will do anything for thrills, ideology, or drug money---just like in Iraq.  If the perpetrators of this act have been in prison recently, they could very well be Islam converts and out for jihad.

After viewing the film, I saw unruly boys doing their indoctrination into the gang.  Wonder where their fathers’ were/are?  Wonder where their mothers’ were/are?

Seattle, GET A GRIP!

Good point Sean.  Seems a little odd that so many video cameras would be on-scene at what was, allegedly, a spur-of-the-moment fight.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Definately not, but since his comment was directed at race that is what I focused on.  It cover’s many area’s actually:

(a) “Hate crime” means a criminal act committed, in whole or in
part, because of one or more of the following actual or perceived
characteristics of the victim:
(1) Disability.
(2) Gender.
(3) Nationality.
(4) Race or ethnicity.
(5) Religion.
(6) Sexual orientation.
(7) Association with a person or group with one or more of these
actual or perceived characteristics.

The thing is, that for it to qualify for this section a overt action must be made that would cause a resonable person to believe the crime was committed solely due to one of the above.

Curt - Not to get off on a tangent, but I’m somewhat surprised that for a crime to be considered a hate crime in California it must be race related.  I’d think that sexual orientation would be among the subjects also covered by the same legal definition, and maybe religion, etc.  Is the statute narrowly defined to race?

One of the other “witnesses”, the guy in the basketball shirt with the #11 on it, also has a video camera. This was clearly done on purpose solely to film it.

Anybody out there good with html?  When looking at the source data for the http://www.realfight.com main web page, I found a reference to this site: http://www.guerrillafunk.com. I’m not good enough to figure out what part of the realfight sight is linking (is it just an image?), but the html text also references “Paris” who is some sort of musician/radical/punk.  You won’t believe the images in the Galleries at the guerrillafunk site.  Anyway, can anyone figure out if guerrilafunk.com is related, or did realfight.com just use a picture from their site (or something)?

guerillafunk.com

IP Address:  72.10.58.94 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location:  - California - Santa Monica - Media Temple
Blacklist Status:  Clear

Santa Monica is up by Los Angeles. Encinitas is in San Diego.

This is my first time at this site, and I’ve not even had a chance to look around yet, but I wanted to let you know I found this entry highly interesting, and worthy of a bookmark.

When I lived in Seattle my student housing was but blocks from Pioneer Square, and seeing the story on the news was disturbing, as I remembered walking around downtown at night, and made me question my desire to move back.

Your post has expanded my thoughts on the whole episode, and I’m quite happy I stumbled across it.

Thanks!

I guess my follow up question would be:

Do the perpetrators of this crime appear on any of the other fight videos?

Its hard to say, Benjamin.  The quality of the video releaed by the police isn’t great, nor are the images.  I watched the preview videos available and couldn’t make any connections...but its hard to say.  All the videos are dark and not the best quality in the world.

And it appears as though Guerilla Funk, and somebody named “Paris” is a big part of these videos.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

[...] Seems that Rob, over at Say Anything, did a little investigation. He remembered hearing about those street fights people would videotape and then sell. Turns out there’s a company that pays for the movies has a Seattle phone number. [...]

[...] Rob at Say Anything (using his detective skills, no doubt) has a whole lot more on this story. [...]

It’s really hard to tell if the soldiers who were attacked were white or black in the video. I heard a talk show host (Bryan Suits on KVI) say they were both black, but I don’t know what race they are.
He did tell a separate story of one of the men in his WA National Guard unit being attacked in Seattle on the very day they returned from Iraq - and that man was white, and attacked by blacks.

So… how does race play into this, and if it doesn’t (as it appears not to) why bring it up?

Well, if I had to guess I’d say that the guys who beat the soldiers maybe didn’t know they were soldiers.  Or at least didn’t care.

I haven’t seen anything to indicate that these guys were targeted because they are soldiers, but then again who knows.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

sort of trash? Or is it gonna just be another round of blame whitey?  Meanwhile, black thugs in Seattle grope an Iraqi veteran’s wife, then beat and stomp him and his friend (who is also a veteran) after the women take offense.  It’s on videotape and a blogger thinks the perpetrators may be linked to a site that sells “Ghetto Fight” DVD’s shot by amateurs. He thinks some of these fights may be set up in advance by thugs roaming about with video cameras looking for random victims.

RE: Rob’s responses (August 26, 2005 at 9:11 am)
That’s my theory.
and
Which also leads me to believe that the fights are taking place so that the videos can be sold for profit.

I wholly agree. More rhetorical questions than anything. Keep up the good work and due diligence. I think we all want these punks donning orange jumpsuit ensembles with the lastest in heavy chains.

"Paris” is a rapper. I remember him from years ago, he always had the reputation of being a “conscious” rapper, he was never a “gangsta” and if you click the link that Rob provided, you can see that he is not involved with this company and doesn’t defend them at all.

Just so you know, some people in Seattle have a different reaction when they see a soldier: Seattle Times: Diners have sweet surprise for soldier, girlfriend.

RE: Regret’s post (August 25, 2005 at 11:45 pm)

Did you also notice the hidden paragraph (on realfight.com aka ghettobrawls.com) of text under the left menu? I’ve presented the keywords list both sites are using to try to increase search engine exposure as well as point out the marketing of these guys without giving them traffic:

ghetto brawls, bumfights,world’s wildest street fights, girls gone wild, catfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, world’s wildest street fights, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violence catfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violencecatfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violencecatfights, cat fight, world’s wildest street fights, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violence catfights, cat fights ghetto brawls, bumfights, world’s wildest street fights, girls gone wild, catfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, world’s wildest street fights, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violence catfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violencecatfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violencecatfights, cat fight, world’s wildest street fights, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, ultimate fighting, ghetto brawls, bumfights, world’s wildest street fights, girls gone wild, catfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, world’s wildest street fights, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violence catfights, cat fight, bumfights, bum fights, fights, caught on tape, ultimate fighting, girls gone wild, ghetto brawls, backyard wrestling, gang violence catfights

Hopefully, a search for that text will also lead to this thread so that they might appear near each other to expose what this abhorrent outfit is peddling and the consequences of their advocacy.

Rob, I hope this doesn’t violate any rules of posting on your site, but it would be nice to see a repository of data that collects such material to shut these businesses down and helps in the capture of those capitalizing on such obscenity.

Imagine offering money for these videos. Do you think these guys set up an ambush in the hopes of cashing in on filmed assault to complement their violent tendencies? Is paying out for this material considered aiding and abetting crime?

For realfight.com (confirmed):

Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Registrant:
GF ENT [Ghetto Fight Entertainment?]
5032 Third Ave
Seattle, Washington 98104
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com
Domain Name: REALFIGHT.COM
Created on: 15-Mar-00
Expires on: 15-Mar-10
Last Updated on: 15-Mar-05

Administrative Contact:
ENT, GF
5032 Third Ave
Seattle, Washington 98104
United States
2063127973 Fax --

Technical Contact:
ENT, GF
5032 Third Ave
Seattle, Washington 98104
United States
2063127973 Fax --

For ghettofight.com: [everything the same except domain registration period]

Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Registrant:
GF ENT
5032 Third Ave
Seattle, Washington 98104
United States

Domain Name: GHETTOFIGHT.COM
Created on: 09-May-03
Expires on: 09-May-06
Last Updated on: 09-Mar-05

I certainly hope the Seattle police do give these guys a visit.

VIDEO VIOLENCE: Street Fight Series Exploits Urban Poor
Street Brawls, Ghetto Fights and Multikulti Knockouts
Business: A Look Inside the Street Brawls and Ghetto Fights DVDs
Google “Ghetto Fight Entertainment”

It’s really hard to tell if the soldiers who were attacked were white or black in the video.  I heard a talk show host (Bryan Suits on KVI) say they were both black, but I don’t know what race they are. 
He did tell a separate story of one of the men in his WA National Guard unit being attacked in Seattle on the very day they returned from Iraq - and that man was white, and attacked by blacks.

Up to $1000 for submitted videos:

http://www.realfight.com/submit.html

Do you think these guys set up an ambush in the hopes of cashing in on filmed assault to complement their violent tendencies?

That’s my theory.

Is paying out for this material considered aiding and abetting crime?

Well, the premise is that these are “caught on tape” and not staged.  Meaning that the person with the camera just happened upon a fight and filmed it.  The problem with that is, like has alrady been pointed out, that these cameramen walk openly around these brutal beatings and aren’t touched by the people doing the beating.  Which leads me to believe that they’re in on it.  Which also leads me to believe that the fights are taking place so that the videos can be sold for profit.

Which would fulfill my requirements as far as saying there has been a crime comitted.

And thanks for the additional information.  I hope, to, that other people searching for these videos find this thread.  SA has a pretty high google ranking, so it just might work out.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

The real fights website has the following phone number listed:

Telephone: (206) 312-7973

Seattle area code. I called and they have their answering machine on.

Reverse phone lookup indicates it is unlisted, but the switch number indicates it may be in Bainbridge island.

Pity I don’t have more access to the databases at work.  We have a pretty good profile :  Someone who operated a retail store in ENCINITAS, CA in 2001 and moved to Seattle in the last five years, who probably owns a residence on Bainbridge Island.  I could probably get it down to 2-3 possible names.

So… how does race play into this, and if it doesn’t (as it appears not to) why bring it up?

Oh, no reason.

Here’s a better copy of the video:

Streaming:
ki_082405poineerfight.wmv

Offline copy:
2005-07-31_Two_guys_beaten_up_by_thugs_in_Seattle.wmv.html

Hope you can help find these guys.

I’m not sure if only law enforcement agencies can do this, but is it possible to follow the money involved in the transactions for the videos? The credit card companies will have a name and account information for whoever is making money off of this crap.

why not order a dvd off the website, and return in within 30days they will need to give you an address,

This makes my blood boil. Keep after it guys.

This is the first I’ve seen or read of this horrific crime. Just so happened to stumble onto the site. Where is the national media in reporting such .... can’t find the words. My prayers are with the soldiers. I must commend you on your work in finding these thugs. Maybe some hackers could work on this by getting info or shutting the site down.  KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

Here’s an interesting snippet from an article in Vibe:

“This is what’s really going on,” said Brian Schafton of the RBC Consulting firm that distributes Ghetto Fights. “Do you want to ignore it or do you want to find out what’s real? You can’t turn your head to what’s going on in society.”

But I can’t seem to find anything on a Brian Schafton or an RBC Consulting.

Thanks for the added info guys.  When I contacted the P.D. I gave them the URL of this post and said that commenters would probably be able to dig up more interesting details.  I don’t want to bother them by calling with ever new tid-bit of information (and maybe they don’t need it anyway) but there’s always the chance that they’re checking here to see what’s up.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Thank you very much for the posting.... from a veteran who has fought with soldiers of all ethnic and religious backgrounds.

Funny thing is that if it was police officer or a dignitary kid that received the beating. Suspects would have been caught, jail and possibly executed by this time. Soldiers are treated like %^$#.

Blood, Sweat and Tears..... remember freedom isn’t free.
Again Thank You

Larry’s said “there are several things that really disturb him. He said if police believe it happened at his club, why didn’t they contact him until Thursday? And why didn’t they ask for tapes from the two cameras he has outside the building?” Rob of SayAnything blog posts there’s a website that “apparently records “ghetto” fights and sells them to the internet public. The video I saw from the email (I was repulsed when I watched it and wish people wouldn’t send me crap like that) looked so much like the

I can’t believe all pussy bull-shit you people are shittin out of your mouths. It’s time to fight back with these nigger-animal-thugs. Just fuckin kill em! I’m retired from the military, and if had come up on that, I would have pulled over and got my AR15 out of the trunk and killed every nigger on that corner.

Fuck those punks
lets beat up some sodiers and mess with their girlfriends
Those guys aren’t thugs, they’re fucking punks
And thousands of punks walk these streets in the USA
They had nothing better to do than assault some military guys?
lol Punks plain and simple!!!

why in the hell are we fighting terrorism across the pond, when we have plenty of porch monkeys here to deal with.  this shit isn’t new, it’s been going on across the country since some jackass gave them civil rights.  i say send them back to africa, where they would fit right in with the dumb shit.

I don’t think it matters if the people who did it were black or white… I think that a lot of these posts are very ignorant! You people need to grow up & realize that people are people, no matter what color their skin is. There are white people that are just as violent as black people.

If you have limewire, you can download some of their videos…

Church wrote

why in the hell are we fighting terrorism across the pond, when we have plenty of porch monkeys here to deal with. this shit isn’t new, it’s been going on across the country since some jackass gave them civil rights. i say send them back to africa, where they would fit right in with the dumb shit.

You must be the first liberal in the history of the internet to pretend to be a conservative in order to ridicule them, Church.

My question is, how bad is the beating, really?  Not to diminish the damage done to the vets, but pay close attention to the video and here’s what you see: two guys are knocked unconscious with a single punch each, then one guy gets his chin and chest (NOT his head) stepped on a couple times.  Not stomped, just pushed on by a shoed foot; notice that the perpetrator is keeping his weight on his OTHER foot as he “stomps” on the victim.  After that, NO other physical damage is done to either victim, and a few items (shoes, etc.) appear to be stolen.  If the fight was staged for video, could it be that the victims are willing participants?  It seems unlikely, given that the police became involved, but…

Dave, how does a racist rant mean that one is pretending to be a conservative. Are you implying that all or even a majority of conservatives are racist?

C’mon. You’re smarter than that.

In my opinion, no person can seriously hold the extreme comments that person expressed. I assumed his post was either a joke or a satire.

And the only way the joke would make sense is if he were a liberal trying to give others the impression that posters at this conservative weblog are racists.

I post at an atheist community forum quite a bit (www.infidelguy.com), and every once in a while we get an “atheist” who writes in favor of killing all Christians or things like that. I just assumed “Church” was doing the same type of thing: a liberal pretending to be a conservative to give curious browsers the impression that conservatives are racists.

The beating was bad enough for both soldiers to be knocked out.  From what I’ve seen, the entire beating isn’t on tape.

The beating was also bad enough for both of their jaws to be broken, a fact that was confirmed to me by the Seattle P.D. when I called them.

As for the ignorant racists who have decided to comment here, screw you guys.  You’re as ignorant as the people who comitted the crime.

You must be the first liberal in the history of the internet to pretend to be a conservative in order to ridicule them, Church.

Dave, how does a racist rant mean that one is pretending to be a conservative.  Are you implying that all or even a majority of conservatives are racist?

C’mon.  You’re smarter than that.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Ah.  I gotcha now.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

These thugs need to be locked up for sure. Senseless violence cannot be tolerated. But people need to check their facts before they start ranting about hate crimes. Everybody involved in this incident was black. The soldiers, the girls and the suspects were all black. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/238528_robert30.html
So how much do you care about the soldiers now? Are you just as outrage?
I am. But I’m black. How do the white people feel?

These thugs need to be locked up for sure. Senseless violence cannot be tolerated. But people need to check their facts before they start ranting about hate crimes. Everybody involved in this incident was black. The soldiers, the girls and the suspects were all black. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/238528_robert30.html
So how much do you care about the soldiers now? Are you just as outraged?
I am. But I’m black. How do the white people feel?

I’m white, James, and I am just as outraged by this beating now as back when I thought the soldiers were white as well.  My comment about hate crimes was just a thought and clearly not applicable now that more facts have come out.

The soldiers sure looked white in the video, but it doesn’t really matter.  I hope they catch the bastards.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

i am sick of it. so sick of it.

i can’t remember when the first of these videos came at my hands. i have to admit, that i was at first somehow attracted. it was a plain fight, caught on video and it was something fascinating about the whole thing that kept me watching and even getting more of the same kind.

but suddenly, i stumbled across videos, where i couldn’t be sure, whether the opponent and loser of the fight could go off the fight without having gotten severe injuries. i was in kind of a rage because it did not seem possible to me, that this could be somehow taped on video without bearing any consequences for the participants, the beater, the crowd and particularly the videofilmer. i just could not imagine, that this might be filmed freely, in public, without bearing legal consequences.

now, after quite some time, i came by accident across this seattle video, while browsing the news for updates on the horrible katarina disaster.

suddenly it all came to my mind again and suddenly it all makes perfect sense. all the pictures of the looters, the stories about the armed gangs roaming new orleans, the recklessness in it all. it is the detoriation of the whole society that made this all possible and if the fighting videos are anything, then but a symptom.

and no, i am not especially talking about the american society, i am talking about the western civilization as a whole. as i am german, i can see the parallels evolving over here, the detoriation and all that.

i took the last two days digging again into this scene, the hate scene living on the distribution of these videos, and my god, have things gone worse since i have last seen something like that. today, we are no longer talking about some fights, we are talking about murder caught on tape.

realizing, that even i contributed to all of this to some extend, and although only as spectator but without objection and complaining loudly makes me feel deeply ashamed and my stomach turning.

it needs to be stopped now. this is not, what the internet was meant to be. this is not, why we did built it up. we cannot let it happen, that a bunch of these people hijacks the net for this purpose and gets a platform for distributing hate across the planet. but if they have chosen the net for their viscious plan, if they base their business on the fact that they think they can hide here, then i also say, lets prove it to them, that they have picked the wrong place at the wrong time. it is time to retaliate.

it is late over here now, 4 a.m. in the morning but i still find it hard to find sleep, because my mind only wanders around one topic: what can i do, how can i contribute.

please provide me with some links to organizations, that probably already deal with these matters in order for me to find out, how i can contribute whatever it needs in order to let these horrific developments come to a halt.

if there aren’t any, well, then they would need to be set up asap.

i am sick of this. please drop some lines to ease my mind and to get something going, that turns these things back.

it can be done. we have enough laws on the planet in each and every country, that makes this stuff a crime and if we cut them out of business, if kids are made not to film these atrocities any longer and if we can invest on teaching them how to avoid physical conflicts, then there is still a chance.

(please excuse my probably mixed up grammar, but as said, english is not my mothertongue, and i have not taken appropriate time to reread and correct my post.)

Excellent post, Stefan!!!!!!

suddenly it all came to my mind again and suddenly it all makes perfect sense. all the pictures of the looters, the stories about the armed gangs roaming new Orleans, the recklessness in it all. it is the detoriation of the whole society that made this all possible and if the fighting videos are anything, then but a symptom.

Well said!  In English, you are said to have had an ”Epiphany”.  See definition 3a.

and no, i am not especially talking about the American society, i am talking about the western civilization as a whole. as i am German, i can see the parallels evolving over here, the detoriation and all that.

Here are the symptoms of the problem.  What is the cause of these symptoms?  I believe that the breakdown of the family social structure is the root cause of these symptoms.  Families split up too early.  Parents have less influence over their children.  Guiltless sex and abortion cheapens the meaning of relationship, love and life.  The values of the Christian faith are scoffed and mocked as “prudish, “retarded,” “outdated,” and “bigoted.” Yet these moral values created the freedom to mock them.  These moral values held our nation together by holding the family together. 

Stalin said that to defeat America, they would have to subvert the culture to destroy the family unit.  Once done, America would be easy to convert to Communism.

i took the last two days digging again into this scene, the hate scene living on the distribution of these videos, and my god, have things gone worse since i have last seen something like that. today, we are no longer talking about some fights, we are talking about murder caught on tape.

While these acts are reprehensible, what of the terrorists who would do this and worse to non-military civilians, Children, and women providing aid?  Theirs is a system in collapse as well.  The difference is that Terrorism can not survive when everyone is free to get to know everyone else.  Democracy can not survive when the populous gives up the notion of the current definition of “family”.

realizing, that even i contributed to all of this to some extend, and although only as spectator but without objection and complaining loudly makes me feel deeply ashamed and my stomach turning.

We can fix this by spreading the word to others.  Inform them of your realizations and epiphanies.  Help them to create their own epiphanies by transferring knowledge and history.

We can fix this by spreading the word to others. Inform them of your realizations and epiphanies. Help them to create their own epiphanies by transferring knowledge and history.

to be honest with you, i doubt that any more talking can do any more good.

i spend quite some time today on the search for any interest group, association or agency that is dealing with this kind of matter but anything i managed to find was more and more of this crap.

heck, videosites like ebaum.com are making millions of this disgusting stuff, indirectly supported by their advertisers like google.com and amazon.com.

this is not any longer about posting some, from my point of view, illegal streetfights but any kind of fight downright to highschool brawls in the classrooms.

this can not be stopped by conventional and talking, this needs some action on some different level.

if what the two guys in seattle had to suffer has any sense, than that this should be a turning point.

I believe in what the thugs did, more power to them.  If the thugs wanted the soldiers women to have their way with them, then let it be.  It was all the soldiers fault, they brought it upon themselves.  The soldiers should have had their women in line. Go thugs go.

P.S. I only refer to the suspects as “thugs” because other previous comments have as well.  I feel this is an inappropriate term and is very derogatory.  May I suggest using the term “Angles of the Lord?” Go Angels of the Lord go!!!

beat down these fuckin soldiers tell they bleed you internet punks.  and beat em some more.  peoples revolution sucker ass niggas!  theres no honnor in going to bagdad for this corupted nazi cocksucker country and all you blog ass jingoistic little faggots.  whose a real soldier.  peoples army, black panthers, revolution nigga.  fuck the national gaurd and long live the thousands of real soldiers that have infilitrated this scum U.S. for mother fucking decades, re/educating the masses and leaving you fucks out to dry.  whose a mother fucker soldier nigga, peoples army in america nigga.  support my poop.  support the inserection and fuck what you have to say nigga.  you here you little internet bitches, we coming for all you faggot ass racist white folks.  i realy don’t think you understand the jist of sitch fagggots.  you respond with word on blogs but it means little due to the fact that real mother fuckin soldiers keep there cool and plan your downfall, fake fuckn soldiers get beat down in seatle and whereaver else these faggots want to try to flash off.  respond all you want but realize all your responses constitute the very unit that we are after sucka’s.  whose a mother fuckn soldier nigga, revolution in america nigga, whats a mother fuckn real soldier fin a do nigga...kill you mother fuckn racists nigga, mother fuckn narrow minded brainwashed ignorant fucks you know it in your mine that your personal possesion of weapons don’t mean shit, we the motehr fuckn majority niga, fuck your mother fuckn response niga, respond all you want with word we rolln in herds smokin herbs crackn domes on the curb with a swerve left buck right fuck you life you done for life sucka ass bitch as faggots.  beat down these iraq vets for fun bitches.

sorry i was kind of drunk last night and would like to make it clear that all though violence happens in this crazy struggle, ultimately the only hope for true prosperity and unity lie through peacfull methods.  Unfortunately substance abuse and miseducation on both sides, pride, FEAR on both sides, and Anger on both sides will cloud the minds many young soldiers and most likely only contribute to more violence and chaos. take my last post as an example.  in the end I only hope prosperity and peace.  perhaps it is the violent methods of our country that will mix with two quarts of vodka and sugary coca cola that bring out the demon.  everyone has a demon.  Please try to control yours, each and every one of you.  FROM THIS MORNING ON, SEPT 19, 2005, I IAN MALCOVITCH DO UNTIL MY DEATH RENOUNCE ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE IN THE STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM, EVEN IT MEANS MY ULTIMATE DOWNFALL.  I understand that others will continue to use the method, and even realize that the surges of anger in my own self may try to lead me twoards condoning violence, BUT TO DENY THESE SURGES will be my new life goal.  I do not have the mind frame for violence anymore.  this does not mean i am giving up using swear words or telling you people to fuck off, it simply is a meak attempt at redemption and a vain hope that these words may mean something to someone.  PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ON EARTH FOR ALL.

P.S. PARIS IS AN ARTIST WITH AN EDUCATED POINT OF VIEW. THANKS FOR THE LINK WHERE WE CAN ALL SEE FOXES HYPOCRACY AND IGNORANCE EXPOSED ON NATIONAL TV. TAKE PARIS´S ADVICE AND READ SOME BOOKS, BUT FIRST LEARN TO USE EDUCATION AS A TOOL, NOT SOMETHING YOU ARE TAUGHT BY SOMEONE ELSE.  PEACE ON EARTH.

any updates on this matter fellows?

Nothing that I’m aware of.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

[...] Help - Search - Member List - Calendar Full Version: Caught on Tape: Soldiers beaten in Seattle RightNation.US > MAIN > Military Pages: 1, 2, 3 Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 10:09 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 10:44 AM)Why?They symbolize the wall between those that do evil acts and innocent civilians. When that wall is attacked it hurts all of us more (breakdown in law.) Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 10:10 AM QUOTEIt represents a breakdown in our society and disrespect towards authority.My point is they were out of uniform off duty soldiers. It doesn't say anything about respect for authority, it's just another example of the drunken yobs who infest Pioneer Square in Seattle. There are fights around that nightclub all the time.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 10:15 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 11:10 AM)My point is they were out of uniform off duty soldiers.  It doesn't say anything about respect for authority, it's just another example of the drunken yobs who infest Pioneer Square in Seattle.  There are fights around that nightclub all the time.That is why I look at it as more of a hate crime. The aggressors (thugs) were not obviously drunk; they knew what they were doing! But, it gets more press because of the symbolism that I mentioned. That is why I am more outraged! Also, the fact that the soldiers are in a war zone and come back ok, but go to a liberal city in America and are almost killed by racist gang members who are often prtected by Rainbow Push. What does that tell you?  jfmsw_hrc Aug 25 2005, 10:15 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 01:23 PM)Ok, just link me to some of your other threads on this site showing outrage at the assaults that go on at Larry's nightclub.Does Rodney King ring a bell? Sort of the opposite situation, but comparable none the less… leanright Aug 25 2005, 10:18 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 09:23 AM)Ok, just link me to some of your other threads on this site showing outrage at the assaults that go on at Larry's nightclub.Have there been any others posted from Larry's nightclub?Nice try.  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 10:25 AM QUOTEHave there been any others posted from Larry's nightclub?Yup, that is interesting. Fights there all the time, and nothing in the news about it until a couple of off duty soldiers are involved? Hmm...QUOTEThat is why I look at it as more of a hate crime. The aggressors (thugs) were not obviously drunk; they knew what they were doing! Why do you think they weren't drunk. Everyone in Pioneer Square is drunk in the evenings. It's where all the bars and nightclubs young folks go to are. In fact, Larry's has been criticized for its cheap drinks that leads to overserving of patrons. Young men + too much to drink = fights.I doubt the perpetrators were even aware the guys they were assaulting were soldiers.  Whitey Aug 25 2005, 10:31 AM Folks, here is what is most outrageous about this whole thing. Those thugs could have beaten them until they were dead. This happend on mardi gras to a young white kid by a black kid. He beat him until he was dead. But that black kid is now free because he "never meant to kill him".Those thugs can go to court and have a lawyer say he "never meant to kill them". The soldiers lived but clearly the law is screwed up in Washington State.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 10:33 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 11:25 AM)Why do you think they weren't drunk.  Everyone in Pioneer Square is drunk in the evenings.  It's where all the bars and nightclubs young folks go to are.  In fact, Larry's has been criticized for its cheap drinks that leads to overserving of patrons.  Young men + too much to drink = fights.They appeared very coherent to me! These guys almost killed somebody! Look at their behavior, drunk or not, they were in control and knew what they were doing! QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 11:25 AM)I doubt the perpetrators were even aware the guys they were assaulting were soldiers.They are still criminals and should be charged with attempted murder! As far as the press coverage and our interest: It is irrelevant if they knew that they were soldiers or not! Look at my previous post! It is the symbolism and irony that made this story even more newsworthy!QUOTE(dodgerfan)Also, the fact that the soldiers are in a war zone and come back ok, but go to a liberal city in America and are almost killed by racist gang members who are often prtected by Rainbow Push. What does that tell you?  De Oppresso Liber Aug 25 2005, 10:37 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 01:35 PM)Even off duty out of uniform soldiers?  I doubt that.There you are wrong. Your status as a U.S. soldier does not change with your clothes.  MrNiceGuy Aug 25 2005, 10:40 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 01:44 PM)Why?Cuz they ain't you.  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 10:41 AM QUOTEThey appeared very coherent to me! These guys almost killed somebody! Look at their behavior, drunk or not, they were in control and knew what they were doing! Usually fights in bars involved drunken young males. A fight outside a bar in that part of town almost certainly involved drunk folks. Maybe not, but I don't see any reason to assume they weren't drunk.QUOTEThey are still criminals and should be charged with attempted murder! Yes, of course. I'm sure they will be prosecuted if they are caught.QUOTEThere you are wrong. Your status as a U.S. soldier does not change with your clothes.I would be curious to see a link to a law that says beating up an off duty soldier is a greater crime than beating up a civilian. It certainly shouldn't be.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 10:44 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 11:41 AM)Maybe not, but I don't see any reason to assume they weren't drunk.Doesn't matter. It is still the same crime!Why don't you address my point as to why we are more interested in this?  ilja Aug 25 2005, 10:44 AM QUOTE(UltraMan @ Aug 25 2005, 08:50 AM)It should be considered an act of treason to attack American soldiers. Anyone who commits this kind of act should be stripped of their citizenship and put away for a long time.Since I haven't read this entire thread, I'm not sure if someone else may have made this point but I would be hesitant about removing their citizenship because then they would get more rights.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 10:51 AM QUOTE(ilja @ Aug 25 2005, 11:44 AM)Since I haven't read this entire thread, I'm not sure if someone else may have made this point but I would be hesitant about removing their citizenship because then they would get more rights.  That's true! Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 10:56 AM QUOTEWhy don't you address my point as to why we are more interested in this? if you are more interested in it because they are soldiers, then fine. However, I don't think the fact that they were soldiers should matter much when condemning the crime. People are all outraged about it which I think is funny because this sort of thing happens all the time in front of that nightclub. Just usually involving black hip hop types or white frat boy types. Nobody gets outraged over them.  ilja Aug 25 2005, 11:02 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 01:56 PM)if you are more interested in it because they are soldiers, then fine.  However, I don't think the fact that they were soldiers should matter much when condemning the crime.  People are all outraged about it which I think is funny because this sort of thing happens all the time in front of that nightclub.  Just usually involving black hip hop types or white frat boy types.  Nobody gets outraged over them.Maybe it's because we feel we owe them some extra gratitude for putting their lives on the line to protect all of us? Don't you feel some extra affection for those who are willing to voluntarily do what a lot of people would be too cowardly to do?  Cheesesteak Aug 25 2005, 11:04 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 10:56 AM)if you are more interested in it because they are soldiers, then fine.  However, I don't think the fact that they were soldiers should matter much when condemning the crime.  People are all outraged about it which I think is funny because this sort of thing happens all the time in front of that nightclub.  Just usually involving black hip hop types or white frat boy types.  Nobody gets outraged over them.Now, if any one of those black hip-hop types or white frat-boy types become the put-life-on-the-line for America types, then we would be more interested in what happens to them. Servicemembers are national treasures. Hip-hoppers and frat-boys ain't.  De Oppresso Liber Aug 25 2005, 11:08 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 02:56 PM)if you are more interested in it because they are soldiers, then fine.  However, I don't think the fact that they were soldiers should matter much when condemning the crime.  People are all outraged about it which I think is funny because this sort of thing happens all the time in front of that nightclub.  Just usually involving black hip hop types or white frat boy types.  Nobody gets outraged over them.I am curious, would you say the same about a police officer?  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 11:13 AM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 11:56 AM)if you are more interested in it because they are soldiers, then fine.  However, I don't think the fact that they were soldiers should matter much when condemning the crime.  People are all outraged about it which I think is funny because this sort of thing happens all the time in front of that nightclub.  Just usually involving black hip hop types or white frat boy types.  Nobody gets outraged over them.It is because these soldiers survived terrorists, but are almost killed by gang members in their own country! Gang members like these are often protected by the NAACP and Rainbow Push; the same organizations that criticize our actions in Iraq. Actions supported by and fought by these very soldiers! That to me makes this story more newsworthy! Also, like Ilja said, we have even more sympathy for those that are protecting us and fighting for us! Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 11:19 AM QUOTE(ilja @ Aug 25 2005, 12:02 PM)Maybe it's because we feel we owe them some extra gratitude for putting their lives on the line to protect all of us? Don't you feel some extra affection for those who are willing to voluntarily do what a lot of people would be too cowardly to do?  BBBK Aug 25 2005, 11:42 AM What really upsets me is that TWO people video taped the attack but NOT ONE PERSON helped these guys. If I saw soldiers getting attacked like that, I'd like to think I'd jump in and try to help them. This just pisses me off to no end.  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 11:42 AM QUOTEIt is because these soldiers survived terrorists, but are almost killed by gang members in their own country!Why do you think they are "gang members"?I respect people who have jobs that are essential to our society, but it wouldn't make such a huge difference in an incident like this. To go from completely ignoring the problem (fights outside of Larry's) when it's "normal" people as happens all the time, to this huge outrage when it's a soldier… no, I don't agree with that.There are awful crimes that happen all the time. I don't have to ask for the person's occupation to feel disgust. And it's sad that it takes a soldier being beat up for it to make it to the mainstream news.  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 11:43 AM QUOTEWhat really upsets me is that TWO people video taped the attack but NOT ONE PERSON helped these guys.Unfortunately, the drunkards in Pioneer Square usually cheer on people fighting.QUOTEIf I saw soldiers getting attacked like that, I'd like to think I'd jump in and try to help them. But not if they weren't soldiers? How would you know they were soldiers, by the way?  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 12:36 PM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 12:42 PM)Why do you think they are "gang members"?Their appearance and their behavior? Who else would act and dress like this? If they are not, then why are they acting and dressing like gang members? If they are not, what I doubt, then they deserve to be profiled as such! Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 12:40 PM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 12:43 PM)But not if they weren't soldiers?  You know that is not what he meant?  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 12:43 PM QUOTETheir appearance and their behavior? Who else would act and dress like this?That's how young people dress. It's certainly not a gang member only thing. And I can assure you bar brawls are in no way limited to gang members.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 12:47 PM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 01:43 PM)That's how young people dress.  It's certainly not a gang member only thing.  And I can assure you bar brawls are in no way limited to gang members.These were not young people, they were adult...and if adults want to dress like 'kids' or gang members and brutally attacked people in the street, as far as I am concerned, they are acting like gang members. If not, then they are gang members! This was not a bar room brawl. Two guys were almost beaten to death and continued to be pummeled after they were down. BTW, what makes you think that they were drunk? There behavior is more in line of a sober person than a drunken person.  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 12:57 PM QUOTEThese were not young people, they were adult...I didn't say kids, I said young, which to me means under 40 or so. If you don't think people in their 20's and 30's dress like that without being gang members, I'm assuming you don't live in a city.QUOTEThis was not a bar room brawl. Two guys were almost beaten to death and continued to be pummeled after they were down.That sort of thing unfortunately happens in bar room brawls. Except usually the bouncers toss you out so you can fight on the street.QUOTEBTW, what makes you think that they were drunk? There behavior is more of a sober person than a drunken person.I don't agree. I've seen far more fights between people who don't know each other in bars and pickup joints like this one. It happens pretty much every night in Pioneer Square, drunken club goers. I rarely ever see random fights between sober people.There are drunken fights all the time in front of Larry's. It used to be a daily occurence. That's why I think the parties involved were drunk (or at the very least had been drinking) Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 01:03 PM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 11:25 AM)Yup, that is interesting.  Fights there all the time, and nothing in the news about it until a couple of off duty soldiers are involved?  Hmm...You answered your own question within your question! If it happens all of the time, then it is not news. When it happens to soldiers, because of all of the things that we have already mentioned in previous post, then it is news! Soldiers are special, especially during war time. They should get coverage whenever something like this happens to them! Wandering Fool Aug 25 2005, 01:06 PM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 10:13 AM)Seems reasonable.  Stripped of citizenship for a drunken fistfight.The soldier and political (non) aspect of this is being talked up, but let's face the reality of what it was - all too common assault that occurs in Pioneer Square when bars let out.  Larry's in particular is known for fighting and the police have talked about shutting the place down.Some of you talk about some kind of media conspiracy, but the fact is this assault has gotten *more* press because the victims happened to be soldiers.  If they were just your average civilian nightclub goers you would have never heard of it… and I'm sure you wouldn't have been as outraged.And with good reason we wouldn't have been as outraged, because as you said they are average civilians, but to do this to a soldier is disrespecting America.  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 01:07 PM Yes, of course I know it's news because it's soldiers and nobody cares if it's not. I just think it's a shame.  The Ocean Aug 25 2005, 01:13 PM QUOTE(Cheesesteak @ Aug 25 2005, 06:06 AM)I wouldn't break my heart if they never get found.  Never, ever get found… by anyone.  Ever again.  If you get my drift.I like Cheesesteak's idea.  trance750 Aug 25 2005, 01:14 PM QUOTE(The Ocean @ Aug 25 2005, 04:13 PM)I like Cheesesteak's idea.Nah. Find 'em and let the Marines deal with them.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 01:15 PM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 01:57 PM)I didn't say kids, I said young, which to me means under 40 or so.  If you don't think people in their 20's and 30's dress like that without being gang members, I'm assuming you don't live in a city.I'm saying they are dressing like kids and gang members! And they deserve to be profiled as such as long as they appear as they are! If they don't want to be called gang members, then they shouldn't dress like gang members/ 'young' and act like gang members. It is that simple!BTW I probably know more about gangs than you do! I grew up and work (teach) in a city with a high gang population (Pomona). I teach gang members! Most of those who dress like gang members are! The few that are not gang members, but dress like gang members are wannabees. Either way, if they dress and act like thugs, then they deserve to be treated like thugs!QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 01:57 PM)That sort of thing unfortunately happens in bar room brawls.  Except usually the bouncers toss you out so you can fight on the street.I don't agree.  I've seen far more fights between people who don't know each other in bars and pickup joints like this one.  It happens pretty much every night in Pioneer Square, drunken club goers.  I rarely ever see random fights between sober people.There are drunken fights all the time in front of Larry's.  It used to be a daily occurence.  That's why I think the parties involved were drunk (or at the very least had been drinking)That doesn't excuse the act! Wandering Fool Aug 25 2005, 01:16 PM QUOTE(trance750 @ Aug 25 2005, 02:14 PM)Nah. Find 'em and let the Marines deal with them.Why the Marines? They were soldiers who got beaten, not Marines. I'm sure the Army has more hate for them.  trance750 Aug 25 2005, 01:19 PM QUOTE(Wandering Fool @ Aug 25 2005, 04:16 PM)Why the Marines? They were soldiers who got beaten, not Marines. I'm sure the Army has more hate for them.Hell let them all have fun with these snot nosed punks. An assault on one, is an assault on all.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 01:21 PM QUOTE(Willie Tubbs @ Aug 25 2005, 02:07 PM)Yes, of course I know it's news because it's soldiers and nobody cares if it's not.  I just think it's a shame.If it is a problem, then why doesn't the lovely liberal city of Seatle do something about it?  GOP Eddie Aug 25 2005, 01:22 PM QUOTE(Cheesesteak @ Aug 25 2005, 10:15 AM)^ this should be the last thing those punks see in this world.That is beyond cool! I would like to see one of those start patroling some of the bad areas we have in my town. After a week of that you will crime drop dramaticlly! NY State of Mind Aug 25 2005, 01:24 PM Does anyone know the conditions of the soliders and if they're doing ok? I'm sure their idenity would be protected but I would love to send a card of support to both of them.  trance750 Aug 25 2005, 01:25 PM QUOTE(DodgerFan @ Aug 25 2005, 04:21 PM)If it is a problem, then why doesn't the lovely liberal city of Seatle do something about it?  Please! They're prolly treated as heroes.  Jason (aka DodgerFan) Aug 25 2005, 01:37 PM QUOTE(NY State of Mind @ Aug 25 2005, 02:24 PM)Does anyone know the conditions of the soliders and if they're doing ok?  I'm sure their idenity would be protected but I would love to send a card of support to both of them.I'm wondering the same thing? I hope they are ok! Also, did anyone happen to find out if these thugs have been caught yet?  Willie Tubbs Aug 25 2005, 01:38 PM QUOTEIf it is a problem, then why doesn't the lovely liberal city of Seatle do something about it? They have… a lot of the clubs are under a lot more pressure to clean up their acts and there are more police down there. I think they'd like to close Larry's down, but since it's one of the few hip hop clubs down there, they don't want to be accused of racism. So it's a fine line.QUOTEI'm saying they are dressing like kids and gang members! And they deserve to be profiled as such as long as they appear as they are!Well you are entitled to your opinions, but I would not assume that.  ASE Aug 25 2005, 02:36 PM QUOTE(Cheesesteak @ Aug 25 2005, 04:06 AM)I wouldn't break my heart if they never get found.  Never, ever get found… by anyone.  Ever again.  If you get my drift.Although I can understand your sentiments, I have what I believe is a better idea because we can get much more mileage out of it:Did you ever see "The Shawshank Redemption" (yeah, I know timmy robbins is a flaming liberal loudmouth and that taints the film). Do you recall the red-hair guy that was the leader of the 'sisters'? Remember when the big guard, et al, beat him up in the cell and they showed him afterward with a neck brace, in a wheel-chair, and with numerous abrasions and contusions? They said he was never quite the same after that (and never attacked anyone again). I'd be willing to cough up a little $$$ from tax receipts to care for a permanently disabled scumbag for the rest of his natural life as long as it will extend his misery and discomfort, just so he could serve as