realitydenyingboob! Where been? Finally get out of rehab, or jail?

You fuckheads act like there is not a definition of torture in US law.

And all this time I thought these discussions were intended for adults, and not for foul-moouthed, intemperate children who apparently can’t make a cogent, rational argument without resorting epithet, insult, and tantrums.

Lestat, give it up. You have lost this argument.

And yes, Lestat sure does seem to have all his hopes and dreams pinned on proving waterboarding is torture.

I am leery of his motives.

That does not change the analysis, Lestat. No reasonable person under the circumstances, either, would believe they were in imminent fear of death.

You honestly don’t believe that somebody captured by this country in a detention center when water boarded would not believe that we would kill them?

This is a slam dunk that this is torture, there is just nobody who is brave enough to prosecute.

Is it safe to say that you support the use of waterbooaring by enemy combatants who want to get info from captured American soldiers?

Hey nutters

hows that party of yours doing?

Waterboarding merely produces discomfort, not the threat of imminent death.

You really don’t think we are threatening imminent death when we start drowning somebody. What do you believe they think? The way the law is written, our intentions are irrelevantg to what the victim believes.

B1…are you suggesting that Congress might not be in a position to legislate in this area? That would surprise me…not that you might advance such a view but that Congress wouldn’t have such authority.

As I noted yesterday, if Thomas Jefferson, author of the Bill of Rights, had intended that the rights enumerated therein should be applied to anyone who walked the face of the earth, as you stupidly suggest, then please explain why Jefferson unleashed the Marines on the Barbary pirates at the “shores of Tripoli…” instead of having those same Islamist pirates arrested and brought back to the U.S. to stand trial?

Learn your fucking history. Jefferson did not right the Bill of Rights, but the Declaration of Indepedence. Those are actually two different documents.

I don’t give a shit what the Chief Executive will do if given enough power, that is why we have a Bill of Rights. Even the best will abuse power if given the opportunity.

Study the law. It is legion with cases about non citizens having the protection of Bill of Rights.

Stop speaking out of your ass and do some research.

Lestat:

Thanks fuckheads, this can now be used against Americans without objection.

News flash, you retard:

Our enemies have always ignored international law.

So unless you’re talking public condemnation (man I can just FEEL THE BURN of Osama’s ears now!!!), the rest is utterly pointless.

This is a slam dunk that this is torture, there is just nobody who is brave enough to prosecute.

Again, you’re a retard.

If Congress were to pass a law explicitly prohibiting waterboarding, it’d be a “slam dunk”. The fact they could have, and haven’t, is implicit approval of the technique.

Quit breathing in a paper bag and get some oxygen to your brain. It’ll help.

This just has to be one of the silliest questions I have ever been asked.

Except that an assistant Secratary of State stated in Emgland that if water boarding was used against Americans he wasn’t sure if it would be illegal.

Thanks fuckheads, this can now be used against Americans without objection.

I actually don’t see where waterboarding is covered under any of that. It certainly isn’t prolonged mental or physical pain. Supposedly Khalid Sheik Mohammed was broken in two minutes. Most people last under a minute.
That’s not prolonged in my book.

It’s because you are too stupid to read part C. It is the prolonged mental anguish caued by the threat of imminent death. It doesn’t matter how long the threat of imminent death lasts.

Mike A,

There is no denying Malcolm Nance’s credentials, but as in just about any other area of endeavor, the credentials are anything but a guarantee on the veracity of his conclusions. Only a liberal accustomed to dishing out slur and ad hominem would suggest that disagreement with those conclusions amounts to an attack on Nance’s integrity.

This, for example,

The result, Nance says, is that al-Qaeda now has, essentially, its own SERE school in U.S. detention facilities, as released detainees have given numerous accounts of their interrogations… He says he’s testifying in part to help his old comrades in SERE, which he sees as a vital tool for training U.S. troops. “SERE needs to be increased,” Nance insists, “but what needs to be stopped is the transfer of SERE techniques to official interrogations.”

would seem to strongly suggest that instead of releasing selected detainees, we should simply shoot them.

Reports are that only three detainees have been subjected to waterboarding, among them Khalid Sheik Mohammed. It is extremely doubtful that any of the three detainees who have undergone waterboarding would have been released.

Reports are that only three detainees have been subjected to waterboarding, among them Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

Reports also state that somebody died of a heart attack due to waterboarding. So are we to believe that 1/3 people die from waterboarding or that you can’t trust the reports?

It is amazing to see people, some of which are American citizens, going to such lengths to condemn one method of interrogation in hopes of demonizing our military efforts to defend freedom and our citizens from terrorists.

HG, these people are fu(#en idiots and are anti american and have no f’n clue. They are traitors in my book.

Ken,

Obviously you went to the community college of law schools. The standard is the reasonable person under like circumstandes. Those circumstances are a person who is being waterboarded during interrogation.

I’ll agree the people on the street are not umder like circumstances, so legally they are irrelevant. They are in no fear of death.

I submit that every reasonable person who is being waterboarded during interrogation would be in fear of imminent death. Do you really think they believe in our benevolence?

Lestat,

Your hypothetical prattle isn’t especially relevant… at least not to me. In my view, the argument over whether or not waterboarding constitutes “torture” and should be considered illegal is meaningless quibble. Apparently it works. And I have seen no evidence to suggest that someone like Khalid Sheik Mohammed should be entitled to the protections of either the Geneva Conventions or the U.S. Constitution.

As I noted above, Malcolm Nance makes a far stronger case for shooting the detainees once they’ve been “cleaned out” than he does for discontinuing the practice of waterboarding.

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from–
(C) the threat of imminent death;

The way the law is written, our intentions are irrelevantg to what the victim believes.

Not what the victim believes, but what “prolonged mental harm” results from waterboarding. Hence, it is not torture.

Is it safe to say that you support the use of waterbooaring by enemy combatants who want to get info from captured American soldiers?

Silly doesn’t begin to cover it. The fact is there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that our country’s behavior toward Islamist terrorist detainees, illegal combatants according to the Geneva Conventions, would in any way effect how a captured American would be treated. Fallujah, Mogadishu, and the torture deaths of James Buckley, Ambassador Cleo A. Noel, Jr., and George C. Curtis should all make the gruesome point.

Lestat,

Perhaps you should take it upon yourself to hunt down the evil-doers and make a citizen’s arrest. That’ll certainly show them what’s what!

As I noted yesterday, if Thomas Jefferson, author of the Bill of Rights, had intended that the rights enumerated therein should be applied to anyone who walked the face of the earth, as you stupidly suggest, then please explain why Jefferson unleashed the Marines on the Barbary pirates at the “shores of Tripoli…” instead of having those same Islamist pirates arrested and brought back to the U.S. to stand trial?

Yep that looks like torture. I think this whole discussion of water boarding being torture is crazy, if there is a bomb in a American city or if this saves an american convoy from being IEDed, I want this used to get information.

Just came across this article which previews testimony to be provided to Congress tomorrow. I guess some people who should know whether waterboarding is torture or not think it is.

This,”OK jackasses, here is the definition of torture under US law. Start spinning and explain how it is not the threat of death.” is just too funny. lestupid, the only one spinning here is you. Your Party, the Democrat Party, has refused 4 times now to name waterboarding specifically as torture. That ends the entire debate. Period.

And this,”The way the law is written, our intentions are irrelevantg to what the victim believes.” is moral relativism. This clearly shows lestupid to be the anti-American Marxist moron it is.

lestupid? Terrorists have only one right under GCs, the right to be swiftly executed upon the ground they are captured. Brigands/Bandits.

As for waterboarding of American soldiers captured by terrorists, that is fucking hilarious! All soldiers of Signatory Nations who are captured/kidnapped are routinely dismembered, electrocuted, cauterized, beaten, sodomized, and starved. Why are you defending these practices by terrorists?

An interesting thread of comments for sure. If anyone is interested, here is what I’ve taken away from the discussion.

There are legal definitions of torture available. There are interrogation techniques which are morally repugnant but may not satisfy the legal definition of torture.

Some people believe that waterboarding as used in interrogations is the same as what’s happening in the video. Some people believe that waterboarding is extremely unpleasant but leaves no lasting harm. Some people believe that waterboarding meets the legal definition of torture because the detainee might reasonably fear for his life.

Some people believe waterboarding is appropriate because it works. Some people believe waterboarding doesn’t work and is torture while others think it doesn’t work and isn’t torture.

I believe waterboarding is torture because the accounts and opinions advanced by individuals who have intimate knowledge of the procedure seem to support that notion. This doesn’t mean that waterboarding is torture in and of itself because when it comes down to it, the definition of torture is the result of a widely shared consensus and not the discovery or identification of a definitive fact.

It’s sort of like the question of pornography…it’s difficult to identify descriptively and legally but everyone knows it when they see it. I read accounts and descriptions of waterboarding and it appears to be torture to me but not to Ken, B1, etc. We have to agree to disagree IMO or see waterboarding enshrined as an illegal act which isn’t likely to happen.

My last thoughts on the subject unless developments warrant…to the relief of most I am sure.

Mike A,

Actually, that is not quite the end of the discussion.

Another point not yet examined is whether interrogations of illegal combatant detainees, particularly if those interrogations take place outside the U.S., fall under the president’s constitutional authority as Commander-in-Chief, and as such, are not subject to congressional interference or restriction. This would echo a similar discussion being carried on in the federal courts with regard to the NSA surveillance program(s) illegally detailed by the NYT late last year.

Rendition, anyone? Billie Jeff thought it was an excellent idea.

B1…I defer to your superior expertise in this area. It makes sense to me that the Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces is responsible for all aspects of an ongoing war. In your opinion, would it make a difference if the interrogation was not conducted by the military but by another government agency?

“Machiavellian” describes the left succinctly.

Really, boob? How many school board seats did the Dems pick up?

Thanks fuckheads, this can now be used against Americans without objection.

I wonder which of the enemies America has ever fought has ever followed the Genva conventions? Or refrained from mistreating our soldiers in general?

I actually don’t see where waterboarding is covered under any of that. It certainly isn’t prolonged mental or physical pain. Supposedly Khalid Sheik Mohammed was broken in two minutes. Most people last under a minute.

That’s not prolonged in my book.

Realityboob is back.

How ya been?