I am “Pro-Policies that benifit Americans, regardless of class and income, more than foreigners.” Call it America First or Isolationist, or whatever. I don’t see it as being anything Communistic in the actual meaning of the word.

Your policies are wrong. The minimum wage hurts those it’s supposed to help. Protectionism hurts the consumer.

You’ve still yet to acknowledge that YOU HAVE BEEN THE DISHONEST ONE ON THIS THREAD.

If everyone’s favorite punching bag, Walmart, pays a wage that doesn’t allow for the worker to get by, and the worker goes on government assistance, then the taxpayers are subsidizing Walmart.

No Dustin. The taxpayers are subsidizing those welfare-loving people who don’t understand economics and how to plan for the future.

I’ve given it some thought WOOF, and have come to the conclusion that you’re the scrooge.

When I was 14 and 15 years old, I was paid minimum wage under the table. This was a better job than a legal one that paid over the minimum wage. Why did I do this? Because of you. I didn’t want to jump through the hoops that you set up for younger workers. I didn’t get a “work permit” (how communistic does that sound?).

I looked at that young time in my life as a learning experience. It was a cool job. Me and a few other friends loaded up big metal poles and tent material into a huge box truck. The one friend who was 16 with a “Class C” license would drive. We’d go to weddings, graduation parties, and community fairs and set up 30×60 foot , 20×20 and 20×40 tents along with heavy metal carnival-like booths. I worked up to above minimum wage (no taxes = decent job) and gained some valuable experience. If it was up to you, I wouldn’t have worked as all. You’d call me an “exploited kid” who shouldn’t be working under the minimum wage.

Don’t count my head into your partisan game WOOF. You demonize me, yet you’re the one who is the most scrooge like here.

You should just let freedom happen in this area.

ellinas said, I am not demanding government coercion. As usual you are talking without thinking.

Thanks for the insult ellinas. As usual, you are speaking out of your ass. Minimum wages = enforced by government coercion.

I am merely demanding higher wage. Got a problem with that?

Yes. Read my response to WOOF before you demonize me.

And stop your projection. It is unbecoming.

Who are you to demand government coercion?
likwidshoe on September 4, 2006 at 1:23 PM
I am not demanding government coercion. As usual you are talking without thinking. I am merely demanding higher wage. Got a problem with that?

I have come to the conclusion that free-republicans is a troll. He’s not entering the debate, he’s only mouthing what he thinks will get a reaction from the rest of the readers.

To this end, I am no longer going to attempt to engage with him. I should have realized long ago that he was just out looking for a reaction.

If and when I do respond to something he writes it will be to set the record straight, not to try to foster a debate.

I encourage the rest of you to do the same thing, but obviously you’re all adults here.

Of those paid by the hour, 520,000 were reported as earning exactly $5.15, the prevailing Federal minimum wage, and another 1.5 million were reported earning wages below the minimum Together, these 2.0 million workers with wages at or below the minimum made up 2.7 percent of all hourly-paid workers.
……..
the actual number of workers with earnings at or below the prevailing minimum is undoubtedly understated.

Party of Scrooges

To the above thesis I say BULLSHIT. And if a union worker was making $14.00 per hour or $40.00 per hour and gets a pay raise so what. Per your posts our economy is doing great. Per the MSM and other sources corporate americas bottom line is doing fine. Americas economy can support a wage increase with no problem.

I would suggest that the minimum wage increase be coupled with a decrease in employer-side pay tax burden so that the employee gets more take home, but it doesn’t change the burden to the employer.

Any objection to that approach?

Ok we know have proof that freep is the dishonest one. From his post at 6:43.

This was his quotation of the original post.

And the number who earn or are paid minimum wage? 520,000 .

This is his comparison that he’s quoting as proof that the original post was in error and therefore Rob was dishonest:

Workers paid hourly rates Total at or below prevailing Federal minimum wage.

It’s obvious there that freep is in error and the original post is correct. He can’t claim that it’s an honest error because I’ve pointed out his error at least twice.

Since he knows that you can’t compare the two number he’s being dishonest.

freep is the one here that’s being dishonest. I don’t even understand to what end.

Free: “I think this whole debate revolves around how far removed we each are from making the min. wage ourselves. That bias from having it fresh in our minds influences our position.”

Not really. It’s a tax, and we all have to pay for it, one way or the other. It has nothing to do with perspective; it’s a matter of dollars and cents.

dd: True that. Nice call.

WOOF asserts, We all pay when people can not make a living wage.

No you don’t WOOF. Read above.

Welfare, food stamps, earned income credit, medicaid, crime , social unrest.

Talking about the “Great Society” inner cities controlled by Democrats, eh? We don’t need those things.

Want people to work and be productive members of the community , see they get paid.
Lots of people without the means to get by, a society with lots of trouble.

Since most minimum wage is just a small stepping stone to higher pay and since a good bit is paid to those young ones just coming into the market for the first time, this doesn’t make sense.

Lik you know you would have been SOL in a mishap, rolling with that mad 16 yr old double clutching the stakebed around turns? No SS disability, no insurance and a business that would be gone like smoke.

Yes, and I took that chance mainly because I didn’t want to jump through the many hoops that YOU set up. No thank you for forcing such a choice on a young 14 year old.

What have you got against freedom? You rail so hard against it and bring up nonsensical arguments and doctored figures to back up your weak case.

I voted Libertarian twice on principle, and likely will do it again if there is not a decent America First candidate – Republican or otherwise.

And what it the libertarian stance on issues like free trade, open borders and minimum wage.

Clueless freep.

Freep wants you to go to his site, read a bit, and then find the link to QandO

Yeah, but I don’t “go” to his site.

He didn’t break anything dow to get that number

I assume adults are able to understand 520,000 divided by 151 million yields .003.

Robert108,

If everyone’s favorite punching bag, Walmart, pays a wage that doesn’t allow for the worker to get by, and the worker goes on government assistance, then the taxpayers are subsidizing Walmart.

Can you refute that statement?

what they really want is total government control of wages, prices and everything inbetween.

While your hallucinating, realize we will force you to marry your brother.

You took the chance, but who would have paid if you were maimed and had to fall back on the state for assistance?

“You” may not need the “inner cities”
but the reality is you got em.

WOOF assumes and gets it wrong, You took the chance, but who would have paid if you were maimed and had to fall back on the state for assistance?

I would have WOOF. It’s called responsibility. I’ll never be a scrooge and demand that you pay for me or my mistakes. That much is guaranteed.

“You” may not need the “inner cities”
but the reality is you got em.

Thanks to the Democrats and their “Great Society”. I know this. We are stuck with you innane, irresponsible, and ignorant people.

Free: “If an employer is recieving labor In Good Faith and the compensation given for the work is not commiserate with the Standard of Living in that given Geo-Economic Market, any dependence upon public welfare is just as much a subsidization of the employer as it is the welfare recipient.

In our economic system, things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Call it marxism if you like, but the wages paid an employee should be based up the Intersection what the labor is valued in proportion to the revenue generated by said good or service and the wage curve for that particular location.

In our economic system, things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Supply and Demand covers the cost of the good or service, but that says nothing to what the employees recieves in wages in terms of what is Right in the Judeo-Christian sense.

Supply and demand also apply to the market for labor.

Our tax policy should promote the employer’s compensation of his/her employees in a just and fair way that also allows the corporation and the owner to prosper.

Taxes are for the legitimate expenses of govt, as determined by the electorate.

Now, if I advocated the government set those terms THAT would be marxism.

However I DO NOT advocate government mandates, rather a phisophical mode of opperation for employers to operate.

Pay should be determined by:

1.) Value of labor
2.) Value of good or service on the market
3.) and what is right in the moral sense.

In our economic system, things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

The government has no role in any of this other that to promote growth by minimizing the tax burden.”The only way govt can “promote growth” is by not doing anything beyond establishing a few ground rules, like a stable money supply, an honest banking system, and enforcement of contracts and private property rights. Along with national defense, that’s it. No interference with markets. Govt can’t really promote growth, it can just minimize the damage it does.

This argument is not about minimum wage. It’s about free market (lik, robert, rob) vs socialism (woof, elianas, free).

You forgot Denny Hastert, Bill Frist, and a few others on the Socialism side of your equation.

Woof: I find you to be a straight out Marxist.

I think this whole debate revolves around how far removed we each are from making the min. wage ourselves. That bias from having it fresh in our minds influences our position.

For you liberal parasites probably not that far from returning to it. Except WOOF, he’s already there.

Woof: “You are confused robert.

It is the employer who assumes risk.
If suppliers , distributers, sales forces and labor do not make money the business dies.If there is insufficient demand or bad management, the business dies.

As usual, you have it backwards. The employer goes into debt to start the business, and doesn’t make any net profit until that debt is paid off. He must make operating profit just to pay off his debt, his suppliers and pay his employees. What is left over after all that goes to his own support. You are confused, like a typical Marxist trying to function in the real world.

An employer can short any of these groups and assume his profit for awhileYou don’t seem to understand the concept of profit. , but ultimately he is out of business.
Labor, legally, has first dibs on any assets.”Assets usually go to the creditors.

Free: That’s not a counter-argument; it’s just spew.

***IT LOOKS LIKE THESE NUMBERS ARE BOGUS ANYWAYS***

Take a look at what the Bureau of Labor Statistics says for 2005:


Wage and salary workers paid hourly rates with earnings at or below the prevailing Federal minimum wage by selected
characteristics
(Numbers in thousands)

Total at or below prevailing Federal
minimum wage, 16 years and over (Percent of total workforce)= 1,882,000 (2.5%)

Total 16 to 24 years at or below prevailing Federal (Percent of total workforce = 1,002,000 (6.1%)

Total 25 years and over at or below prevailing Federal (Percent of total workforce) = 880,000 (1.5%)

The statistical basis for this story is incorrect.

Quick question, “In double entry accounting, when the cost of labor is inputed, where is the value of labor inputed?”

Inventory and/or accounts receivable.

Free: In case I wasn’t clear: Wages should be determined by the supply/demand relationship in the labor market.

… and the value the employer recieves from the sames of the goods and services based on supply and demand.

None of this would be a problem it employers would consider employees as assets not liabilities.

Don’t think that’s a valid statement?

Quick question, “In double entry accounting, when the cost of labor is inputed, where is the value of labor inputed?”

Free: In case I wasn’t clear: Wages should be determined by the supply/demand relationship in the labor market.

I’m done with this thread, call me when the numbers are corrected.

This is why bloggers shouldnt quote other bloggers.

Goto the source doc.

No offense Rob, you were a victim in all this.

Rob: Never fear. It’s my experience that when lefties start losing on basic truths, they start trying to nitpick with numbers or some such. I don’t know about the numbers in this case, but I do know that we are not anywhere near being a Third World country with a permanent underclass, like the lefties keep trying to say. The real story here is telling the truth, not whose numbers are better. Minimum wage workers are a minority; the only dispute is how small that minority is. Are we going to tax the producers to support this minority, or not?

robert 108 wrote:

He has to pay all his personal expenses, take care of his and his family’s health care, etc., out of what is left after he pays everything else,

You are confused robert.

It is the employer who assumes risk.
If suppliers , distributers, sales forces and labor do not make money the business dies.

An employer can short any of these groups and assume his profit for awhile , but ultimately he is out of business.
Labor, legally, has first dibs on any assets.

Free: It’s not “inputed”(or inputted), it’s just “input”. There is such a word as “inputting”, though. In accounting, I would think the word to use would be “entered”.

Freep, you cannot pay employees more than they are worth. It kills your business to do so. Why can you not understand so basic and simple a point? woofie refuses delivery because he is anti-business, what is your excuse?

I didn’t defend anything. I just wopuld prefer reading what reasonable people have to say without trying to avoid your dishonest drivel. I can defend Rob using it since the article was supporting raising minimum wage. He should know better than to ever accept anything a liberals says as true but sometimes you have to just give them the benefit of the doubt.

robert sang:

all his personal expenses, take care of his and his family’s health care, etc., out of what is left after he pays everything else, including his workers

roberts Second song”

What is left over after all that goes to his own support

I don’t have it backwards.

“Assets usually go to the creditors.

Labor is legally the first creditor in line.

I don’t have time right now to run the numbers myself, but I’ve emailed the original author over at Q and O and he should be getting back to me.

As for bloggers not quoting other bloggers, that’s just silly.

Frankly, Free, I’m fully expecting that you’re going to be wrong on this. You usually are.

Did you even look at the Official Document?

As Dan Rather said of the National Guard Document:
(something to the effect of)
“The document was fake, but the story was accurate.”

We may all disagree on political philosophy and ideological matters, but so long as we can remain intellectually honest in our debates, we will be safe.

If such time comes where we as conservatives begin to twist the data to fit our ideological agenda, that will be the moment at which conservatism ceases to exist.

Such an instance recently occured where a conservative blog reported that “.003 of the work force earns minimum wage.”

But when you look at the Official Report from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics it clearly states that the real number is 2.5%.

If we can’t retain intellectual honesty about facts and statistical raw data, we’ve lost the war because we are no better than the other side.

Once we start skewing the numbers to fit our ideology, than Conservatism itself ceases to exist as that is what seperates us from the Left.

http://freerepublicans.blogspot.com/2006/09/intellectual-honesty.html

Woof: I said exactly the same thing in both statements. While a business is running successfully, the employer gets paid last. When an employer goes out of business, that’s a different story. You are confused here. You can’t carry this tune.
You may be theoretically right, but in real life, the creditors get first pick. But again, that is only when a business has failed and is being dissolved. While it’s up and running, it’s what I said. Get the difference? When an employer goes out of business, the jobs he provided go away.

And what it the libertarian stance on issues like free trade, open borders and minimum wage.

Completely open free trade and no MinWage at all.

Of course, they have no power and can’t do anything -BUT THEY ARE RIGHT.

If being Right is more important that actually doing something, feel free to do so.

You have to dig deep to try to understand Freep.
Just like you have to dig deep to find the “link” to MCQ. Freep wants you to go to his site, read a bit, and then find the link to QandO
Somewhat convoluted Freep. Seems like it would have been more straightforward just to create a link on this thread to QandO, rather than the moderately devious opportunistic redirect to your own blog.

Yeah, right. Whatever. Your acting like i’m new here or something when that’s you.

McQ and his aliases can whine all day but they were found with their pants down. Pull em up and get over it.

McQ,

I don’t have time to advocate a position supported by people who dismiss the validity of raw data when presented to them.

This isn’t about whether the wage should be increase, the Democrats blocked that already.

If we as a Greater Conservative Movement abandon the principle of truthfulness in our arguments, we might as well quit trying.

If your going to cite numbers, make sure they are right.

If you are going to cite ideology without citing numbers that is fine.

But don’t pervert the numbers to fit your ideology. That’s the domain of modern liberalism.

Finally!!! whoosh….kinda like pullin’ teeth.

You must be a reporter since your so good at taking things out of context.

^That was a smear.^

Ok.

First, if people are making less than the Minimum Wage, then the term Minimum Wage is the one being dishonest.

I don’t think anyone should be paid less than minimum.

The Federal Minimum Wage for tipped workers is something like $3.25…SO I THINK THOSE COUNT TOO, I may be wrong.

I don’t have time to advocate a position supported by people who dismiss the validity of raw data when presented to them.

Works for me … I don’t have time to waste on people who’s first reaction to anything is to go right to casting aspersions on someone’s “intellectual honesty” without finding out the details of what’s going on.

That would by you, btw.

Why would that matter? A person’s wage is what the employer pays him, not what the customer pays him out of pity.

Because freep, it very well may be that the person doing the serving makes an excellent wage without the pay. The market therefore would drive down the wage paid by the restaurant.

The worker is happy as he’s making good money.

The business can use that money to reduce prices or make his restaurant more desirable.

The consumer is happy because they aren’t paying for the server twice. In lieu of that the dining experience is better. I for one would rather decide what my server is worth to me than have some dweeb decide that for me.

DJC,

If Bush lied then who fixed the foriegn intelligence reports to agree with the intelligence Bush doctored. Even better,
how did he manage to alter the intelligence
gathered before he took office? You know,
the intelligence that provoked Dems during the
Clinton administration to condemn Iraqs WMD’s.
You’ve bought a lie.

Freep:

I may be
wrong.

Finally!!! whoosh….kinda like pullin’ teeth.

The best way to do that is to neutralize your opponent’s argument by giving them 40% of what they want, and since your still closer to where you want to be than you would be otherwise, your now in position to bring other areas closer to where you want them to be.

Free,

It sounds more like you take a liberal position on minimum wage. Log rolling doesn’t mean you change your position on the issue, you simply agree to disagree and give a little.

You must be a reporter since your so good at taking things out of context.

Freep, whatever do you mean?

No, because they make less for a reason. It’s because they make tips or have other types of income that put their total income well over minimum wage.

Pitiful.

I will say this without any differences in my political or philosophical views:

MINIMUM IS MINIMUM. A waitress shouldn’t be paid less because the customer is expected to subsidize the stingy business owner.

Again, any time you’re willing to apologize to both me and McQ. Nobody here was being dishonest. The numbers we cited were accurate and backed up our larger points.

Well, I will apoligize to you only because you were hoodwinked. I understand you can’t fact check everything, and that blog looks responsible.

I’ve never seen a blog try to pass the blame off on an old-media source though. I thought the point of a blog was to be able to own up to that sort of thing.

I grew up taught that the minimum is not enough. Go the extra mile! Why are we promoting mediocrity?

As my boss at the pizza joint once said “Minimum work for minimum pay.”

It sounds more like you take a liberal position on minimum wage. Log rolling doesn’t mean you change your position on the issue, you simply agree to disagree and give a little.

The MinWage is an neccisary evil I can live with.

There are bigger leftist fish to fry out there.

Geez your an idiot freep. Your table includes people that are at OR BELOW minimum wage.

So what? Don’t people making less count?

Free: “As Dan Rather said of the National Guard Document:
(something to the effect of)
“The document was fake, but the story was accurate.”"

Very bad analogy. Dan Rather’s piece was a news story(or so he claimed). This post is about the fact that the minimum wage increase will result in an increase in union wages. The number of people on minimum wage is only a small part of the story, and doesn’t affect what the unions do with the minimum wage increase.
In the case of Dan Rather, he chose to ignore contradictory testimony from the son and the wife, the the facts about George Bush’s National Guard “score” that year(above the minimum for service credit), and relied on a fake memo for his entire story. Not even close. Nice try at smearing Rob, though.

When did I smear Rob? Point it out.

The author of the blog he cited is to blame.

Some good spin-masters in here.

Woof: “Pragmatism trumps ideology in politics.”

Tell that to Ronald Reagan; and the old Soviet Union.

You put politics over principle.

Sorry, I never got an invitation to join a Principle Party.

I voted Libertarian twice on principle, and likely will do it again if there is not a decent America First candidate – Republican or otherwise.

Honestly, why anyone in the GOP anywhere in this country hired you is beyond me.

Maybe because I do understand the difference between Politics and Philosophy.

Sorry — had to respond here. Actually, what I said was that I could count on that much. As in, that was the minimum I could count on. Apologies; I though I made that clear.

Exactly

The customer knows you count on it. But if they didn’t know you counted on it, you would know that it was for merit.

Entitlements are what people “count on.”

Tips have become an entitlement rather than by merit.

I did tables and ran deliveries long enough to know who has done it themselves and who hasn’t. That’s the key in tips, those who were in your shoes will ALWAYS tip better than those who haven’t.

But those with more money than they know what to do with are nice too.

http://freerepublicans.blogspot.com/2006/09/intellectual-honesty.html

Right in there bud.

Forgot to check the source again

That’s twice now.

Wrong.

You have to dig deep to try to understand Freep.
Just like you have to dig deep to find the “link” to MCQ. Freep wants you to go to his site, read a bit, and then find the link to QandO
Somewhat convoluted Freep. Seems like it would have been more straightforward just to create a link on this thread to QandO, rather than the moderately devious opportunistic redirect to your own blog.

How many times it would have been faster to make and serve your own meal at Dennys?

LoL. True!

So your trying to make the claim that the server should be paid twice for the same work. In order to do that you’re willing to interfere in the business world where you have less than zero expertise.

No. If employers would pay their employees properly, and customers would know it, tips would be for “good work” rather than a handout as they are now. I’m only 3 years removed from that kindof work so forgive me for having PERSPECTIVE.

Sorry for causing trouble by pointing misrepresentations. If that equates to a smear, i am sorry.

The fact remains, if you are going to cite numbers to back up your claims, check to see if they are real.

Otherwise, do what I do and speak in generalities about how things either are or how they should be.

You learn this when you start writing term papers – if your source of credibility is bogus, so too is your argument.

Wait I forget, you guys don’t factor part-time MinWage jobs into that do you?

I’ve never worked a full time MinWage job…I’ve done 3 part-times at the same time, but never 1 full.

Bush calls that the American Way…lets just say, I don’t, even in retrospect.

Sorry for causing trouble by pointing misrepresentations. If that equates to a smear, i am sorry.

The fact remains, if you are going to cite numbers to back up your claims, check to see if they are real.

Is your brain in the deepfreeze. According to the chart that YOU linked to there are only 470,000 earning the minimum wage. Furthermore on the same chart only 149,000 full-time workers are earning minimum wage. That’s one in a thousand freep.

There are also many jobs that are exempt from the minimum wage which are not germane to this discussion.

I could claim that you are dishonest for claiming the number of minimum wage workers was much higher. However I think it was an honest mistake. What wasn’t an honest mistake is being a jerk before and even after YOUR error was uncovered.

I’m reading the totals.

McQ originally said:

According to Bureau of Labor stats, the number of people working in the US (16 or older) is 151,000,000. And the number who earn or are paid minimum wage?

520,000 .

Yup. .003 of the work force earns minimum wage.

He didn’t break anything dow to get that number

Is your brain in the deepfreeze. According to the chart that YOU linked to there are only 470,000 earning the minimum wage. Furthermore on the same chart only 149,000 full-time workers are earning minimum wage. That’s one in a thousand freep.

44. Wage and salary workers paid hourly rates with earnings at or below the prevailing Federal minimum wage by selected
characteristics
(Numbers in thousands)
Characteristic
2005
Workers paid hourly rates Total at or below prevailing Federal
minimum wage
Total
Below
prevailing
Federal
minimum
wage
At
prevailing
Federal
minimum
wage
Number
Percent of
hourly-paid
workers
SEX AND AGE
Total, 16 years and over ……………………………………………………………………. 75,609 1,403 479 1,882 2.5
16 to 24 years ………………………………………………………………………………… 16,374 720 283 1,002 6.1
25 years and over …………………………………………………………………………… 59,235 683 196 880 1.5

Generally, I could count on making about $200 a week in tips for working about 25-30 hours a week. Plus the $2.35/hr wage. So, 8 or 9 bucks an hour for a part time job. But again, there were weeks when I made more than double that, easily.

Angus,

You’ve got a good attitude that’s for sure, and I don’t mean to raid on your parade, but that’s not very good at all. You were either being very kind to the barkeep and busboy, or you had a bunch of stiffs for customers. Even if you were making double that, still doesn’t come close to running pizzas and way more work too.

I got it figured out freep, you’re too flippin cheap to tip your waiter. But you feel guilty about it so you think someone else should make up for what you should have done.

Uhh, no. The person making the money in the business should pay from the revenue. The customer shouldn’t have to pick up the slack.

Oh, and yeah, 15% every time. 20% if the bill is under $10.

I’ve done that job, I don’t stiff people.

To the minimum wage supporters: mind your own business. If I want to hire someone at a wage you don’t approve of – tough shit. It’s not your deal. Mind your own business and leave me alone.

Free: I hate to be stuck at the level of quoting stuff from Freshman economics, but here goes again:

“Ardent free market advocates are correct in arguing that the wage support that is the minimum wage creates artificial unemployment.That is only one of the bad consequences of the minimum wage tax. The economics prove that if the minimum wage were abolished, that there would be no unemployed Americans.Not true. Actually, somewhere around 2-3% is in transition between jobs at any given time. The downside of their argument is that Americans would be working for 10 cents per hour somewhere.No one is compelled to accept any job, since this is a free country, and no one would accept a job at that low rate unless they had a good reason for doing it. That is just BS. It’s a typical leftie straw man argument.

Obviously this is unacceptable,and not real. which is why labor laws were created in the late 19th and early 20th centuries; labor laws that included limitations on child labor as well as the Federal Minimum Wage.Labor laws were enacted because of a strong “Populist(Marxist)” political movement at the time, which also yielded a lot of other socialist legislation. It was a bad idea then, and continues to be a bad idea.

While some may argue that this was the beginning of socialistic economic planning,Agreed. it should be clear to most that letting corporations have free reign on their labor forces was not working.Since there is no forcible hiring, this is complete BS. No one is forced to work at any wage; this is another straw man argument. If any business needs workers to make money, they have to pay enough to get them to sign on. Econ 101.

Which brings us to the current situation: The Federal Minimum Wage has been set a $5.15/hr since 1997. However, most states have exceeded this Federal Minimum. Minnesota has increased its wages to $6.15. Which has put pressure on the Fargo economy as workers can cross the river for a better wage.A distortion completely created by govt interference in the market.

Opponents of a higher minimum wage argue that the minimum wage is something only teenagers earn. Fine, let’s limit the increase to those members of the workforce over 18 years of age. Those under 18 will still be protected by the Federal Minimum.

The fact is, if we are to have a minimum wage, it should be at a level that a person can sustain a living. In our economic system, things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Period.

What should the minimum wage be set at?ZERO.

Since the current rate of $5.15 was set in 1997 we have had fairly low inflation, roughly 3% inflation on the annual rate from 1997 to 2005. Since any legislation during the 2007 biennium would not take effect till August 1st, 2007 at the earliest. That will equate to a 10 year period. $5.15 at 3% compounded yearly for 10 years equals $6.92. Thus, setting the North Dakota minimum wage at $7.00/hr as of August 1st, 2007 would be economically supported.Wrong. Part of that inflation is due to present minimum wage legislation. It mandates an increase in price with no corresponding increase in value.

The inflation has already occurred in the economy. If we are to have a minimum wage, it must keep up with the economic conditions or else those workers who rely on these lower paying job will continue to lose purchasing power, and the economy will stagnate.”The is Marxist fantasy economics. The minimum wage tax is one of the causes of inflation, so increasing it will increase inflation. It isn’t a gain for anyone except the political class which uses it to buy votes from economically ignorant voters. The waste of resources costs us more than we could gain; in fact, there is no net gain, except for the politicians.

FreeRublicans.com said:

Why would that matter? A person’s wage is what the employer pays him, not what the customer pays him out of pity.

Actually, I wouldn’t characterize it as “pity”. First, poor service would mean a lousy tip (or none at all), so I like to think I earned them. Secondly, on occassion I would be asked by a customer how much I make. We were generally forbidden from telling people what we made, but when they asked….

Not one customer ever correctly guessed that I made less than minimum wage. Interestingly enough, most thought I made somewhere between $8-$12 an hour, which, with tips, was actually about right.

The economic system contained in a bar/restaurant is actually a fascinating thing. There are even communistic versions of restaurant economics. These places use what is called “tip pooling”. I would never work is such a place, but my understanding is that slackers loved it.

In tip pooling, all the tips during a shift are pooled and then handed out evenly among the workers (pro-rated for percentage of time worked). In theory, this made everyone work hard to build the tip pool up as large as possible. In reality, it meant some jerk who didn’t want to pull his weight would still get a share of the cash for doing less work. The real reason for it was it made it easy to report worker’s tips for tax purposes, since the business always knew exactly how much in tips was brought in (assuming no holdouts, of course).

Anyway, sorry for the rambling digression. I’ll shut up now.

Free: “(dont even mention oil fields).”
You excluded yourself from the high-paying jobs. Your choice.

The point about misallocation is this: the minimum wage tax takes money away from the employer, who is contributing to the economy by being productive, supplying the demand, buying raw materials, and employing people, and gives it to entry-level employees who will do nothing with the money except to spend it. He won’t buy raw materials, create products, or employ anyone. That is the misallocation part. If the employee earns a wage by creating value with his work, then no misallocation takes place. It’s not about the spending, it’s about whether or not value is created. Minimum wage doesn’t create any value; it reduces it.

Just the other day you were complaining about “big government” Republicans. Do you understand that you are the very sort of person who has led us to these big government Republicans? People who put their conservative ideals to the side for the sake of politics?

Absolutely. I take 2 showers a day to try to get rid of the filth of party politics. But I’ve got to pay the bills somehow, and it’s better than churning cement.

Free: “Reagan spent the Soviets into bankruptcy; W is letting the terrorist do the same to us.”

Wrong. RR challenged the Soviets to an economic race they knew they couldn’t win, and so they gave up. The jihadists aren’t capable of doing that.

We have a market based economy. Minimum wage is entry level pay for entry level workers, ie: kids flippen burgers. If you are an adult, supporting a family and you earn minimum wage, then you have more issues than a simple pay raise will resolve.

Less than 25% of our adults in this country have any formal education past high school. That’s sad. Like I said, we have a market driven society.

You can’t really be this dense(I hope). You keep going for the victim take, while I know that the worker who puts the most effort into finding the right job for his talents and abilities and who continues to hustle eats better. You are sitting back, waiting for a handout, and the guy who beats you every time goes out and gets it. That is the difference, I say again. Victims are never winners.

Someone working for MinWage obviously cant get a start-up loan, so what do you propose he do instead of work to eat?

I’ve already covered this many times. Reread my previous posts. You have to make your own opportunities and provide for yourself. You don’t get everything handed to you all at once, unless you are a slave.

Well people who make minimum are the closest thing to slaves as we have in this country.

You really have a callous attitude toward the people that keep this nation running. CEOs don’t keep the world turning.

While those who pay the wages are those with money, it is not they that keep things going.

…moron.

Your favorite word.

You could do other things for a check, moron.

Yeah, and I will probably end up doing something else, but not being tied down by a family and wanting some satisfaction out of what I do, this will do for now. More people don’t get conservative till late in life (you should have known me when I was appalled to be associated with the GOP), by then I should be in a position to do something about what I believe….till then, it’s as they say “Ya can’t change the world if ya can’t pay the rent.”

It’s because you don’t make any sense.

The world doesn’t make much sense. Nor is it fair or how we think it should be.

Policy occurs at the intersection Principles and Praticality.

You link to your own blog from here all the time. You know why nobody reads your blog despite (according to you) the fact that you’ve been writing on the internet for five years?

Good for you, people who agree with you read you blog. Excellent work!

Free: “The worker has no say in what work is avalible. He has to eat somehow.”

You can’t really be this dense(I hope). You keep going for the victim take, while I know that the worker who puts the most effort into finding the right job for his talents and abilities and who continues to hustle eats better. You are sitting back, waiting for a handout, and the guy who beats you every time goes out and gets it. That is the difference, I say again. Victims are never winners.

Free: “Yes, in the short term, there are 3 choices:

1) work for less
2) go on welfare
3) sit in the corner and die

in the mid term there is:

4) go back to school”

Completely wrong! In any term, you get the most you can for your services and work your way up the ladder in every way you can. There is no other way. Giving up is not a solution. That includes 2) and 3). Both are a form of giving up.
Gutless quitters get what they deserve.

Wages are determined by the supply and demand for labor in any particular market. Trying to arbitrarily command one is trying to make our demand-based system(the best in the world, both in prosperity and in quality of life) into a stagnant, oppressive command system. That is why it’s wrong.

We’ve had the MinWage for 70 years, I don’t think it’s caused an ounce a stagnation.

However, like I said earlier, once you/we take care of other burdensome regulations, then we can take care of the MinWage….to me, it’s probably like #7 on the list.

Start big, not small. BE BOLD.

The “minimum wage” also establishes the maximum to pay an entry level worker, no matter what their actual worth. No one ever thinks of that. It introduces several distortions into the labor market, all of which are bad.

How does it do that?

I agree that paying 16 year olds more than $5.15 is just subsidizing the kid’s parent. But everyone who is an adult and does an honest days work should be able to afford to live. I’ll agree that is a Populist idea, but I don’t think it’s a Communist one.

Free: You just don’t know basic econ, do you?

“Well people who make minimum are the closest thing to slaves as we have in this country.

Only if they choose to wait for a handout, instead of going for all they can get by working for it. The slave mentality is to just put in your time. The free man’s mentality is to make every day better than the one before.

You really have a callous attitude toward the people that keep this nation running.People who invest and fund business keep this world going. Period. Everyone else lives off of them, including govt. CEOs don’t keep the world turning.Once again, in our system, capital and labor cooperate to produce prosperity. Without capital, labor isn’t worth much, like the peasants in a monarchial system. Without labor, capital is just money. Your statement is a lie. Karl Marx would agree with you, btw. That is why Marxist economics always fails.

While those who pay the wages are those with money, it is not they that keep things going.”
One more time: In our system, capital and labor cooperate to produce prosperity. Memorize this; it will serve you well.

Whistler,

Let me know what I am trolling for. I will tell you if your right

Let me make some suggestions for reading::