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Sunday, July 02, 2006

The ND Media Lobbies to Spend the Surplus

Cross Posted from Taking Back ND

From the Associated Press in The Grand Forks Herald:

A state worker pay plan has joined the competition for a slice of North Dakota's budget surplus, one of several spending ideas that already are being discussed six months before the Legislature meets.

The plan would increase state employee pay by 3 percent next year and 4 percent in 2008, at a cost of about $17.5 million over two years.

It includes $5 million for agency pay adjustments and would keep fully paid health insurance coverage, which now costs $554 monthly per worker for a family policy. State workers do not contribute a share of the plan's cost, and Hoeven has promised to include the benefit in his budget recommendations to the 2007 Legislature.

Last year, the Legislature approved a 4 percent pay increase for state workers that took effect July 1, 2005, and a second 4 percent rise that takes effect next month. Lawmakers also approved $1.5 million for pay adjustments for the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, and close to $200,000 for the Highway Patrol.

North Dakota's budget surplus is well over $200 million, and state agencies and interest groups with suggestions on how to spend it are aggressively advancing their ideas, he said.


On balance I'm in favor of giving the state employees a raise. I'm certainly realist enough to know that give the current budget situation at the state level they will get a raise. My reservations about the raises are based on my belief that only the high performers (top 50%) should get a raise. I don't believe in giving more money to someone because they've been here another year.

Except for some jobs with special requirements, state employees are already well compensated compared to the private sector. If you've tried to hire in the state you know that it's very tough to find people. When you look at the job listings for the state you'll see relatively few job listings compared to the large workforce. We the taxpayers are paying well enough that people in the state are competing to work for the state.

With that said I have a large problem with this article (and others like it) because it's written to give the voters the impression that the budget surplus is spoken for. Nothing could be further from the truth.

North Dakota's economy is growing fast enough to give a raise of 3 and 4 percent to it's workers without tapping into the surplus. The ND Associated press is assuming that the surplus earned in the 2005-2007 biennium will go to pay for salaries in the 2007-2009 biennium. These pay increases will occur in the 2007-2009 biennium. They should be paid out of 2007-2009 revenues. That leaves the current tax surplus available to be returned to the taxpayers who been overtaxed for services received.

These state pay increases sound reasonable. The ND Associated Press is using the reasonable sounding program as an excuse to keep the state surplus in the hands of the government and employees rather than return it to the taxpayers who were overcharged for the services that we received.

In the past I've said that the budget surplus must be returned to the taxpayers in a rebate. If they spend it on new government programs, those programs will cost more in the future requiring tax increases. I've also thought that we should keep tax rates the same. That's because North Dakota's economy grows in fits and starts. (Think about how much tax income is coming in from the oil patch both in extraction and salaries of oil field workers.) However since the liberals in the state are acting in such bad faith I'm beginning to think that we may have to lower tax rates to keep them from forcing the spending issue.

The state budget should only grow due to inflation and increases in population. It should not grow because we taxpayers are working harder and consequently paying more taxes. When you see your state legislator you should talk to him and explain that we want the tax surplus returned to the taxpayers, not hoarded by the state employees. This story said;



State agencies and interest groups [have] suggestions on how to spend [the tax surplus, and] are aggressively advancing their ideas.


We have to be more aggressively in seeing to it that the tax surplus is returnened to the taxpayers whether they be state employees, teachers or private citizens.




Brenarlo pointed out that North Dakota has become a high tax state in this post.
Per capita ND pays $2,200 in taxes now. So you family of four is stuck with an $8,800 tax bill. We're paying plenty!


Here's another story I did on North Dakota Media lobbying to spend the surplus.

Comments

Avatar for bullwinkle

Why return it to the taxpayers? Why not place it in a permanent fund and use the revenues from the fund to help offset any tax increases in the future or even lower taxes in a few years?

bullwinkle on July 2, 2006 at 09:03 am
Avatar for The Whistler

You don’t really believe that they’ll save it do you? 

Why return it to the taxpayer?  Because it belongs to the taxpayer.  We’ve agreed to accept and pay for a certain level of services.  We received those service.  However we overpayed for those service.

Is the state government a for-profit entity?

If we let the state keep the money they’ll spend it and demand more.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 09:17 am
Avatar for bullwinkle

They could do it. It works very well in texas with the University of Texas Permanent Fund. it has over $15 billion and is still growing. All it takes is an ammendment to the state’s constitution.

bullwinkle on July 2, 2006 at 09:23 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Have you ever noticed the more money the state system gets, (such as the University system), the more they spend.

If we give them $20 million a year more, they’ll spend more than that.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 09:26 am
Avatar for bullwinkle

BTWBTW< if they’d run governments like they were for-profit businesses and not re-election slush funds taxes wouldn’t be a problem.

bullwinkle on July 2, 2006 at 09:26 am
Rob
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Alaska Permanent Fund has worked well over the years (I’m originally from there), but the problem with it is the money is still within reach of the politicians.  Every few years it seems like there is a big push to use money the PDF to fund various state projects.  It has never worked because the majority of Alaskan politicians have enough fiscal discipline to avoid that, but still.

Better to give it back to the people in the form of a rebate and a tax cut.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on July 2, 2006 at 09:27 am
Avatar for bullwinkle

f they’d run governments like they were for-profit businesses instead of re-election slush funds taxes wouldn’t be a problem. And you’re absolutely wrong about the UT system, it grows every year.

bullwinkle on July 2, 2006 at 09:28 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Bullwinkle, who do you think the money belongs to, the people or the state employees?

By the way, in North Dakota the left is talking about spending the surplus, not saving it.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 09:31 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Since Rob has already educated you all on my background there is no need for me to repeat it as well.  With that said, Whistler, as usual the headline is off.  You quote one newspaper and here is the editorial in Bismarck Tribune: http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/07/02/news/opinion/editorials/doc44a6bce48c312199726872.txt.

Oh and just for the record state employees are taxpayers.  They just want to be paid fairly for the great work they do for the citizens of North Dakota.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 09:39 am
Avatar for robert108

"Oh and just for the record state employees are taxpayers.”

Our money is confiscated to pay their wages, then some of it is deducted for taxes so that the govt can pay more wages for the govt employees.  Not exactly the same as when the private sector pays taxes.  They should be paid what they are worth, on a cost/benefit basis, and not a penny more.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 09:44 am
Avatar for The Whistler

I agree with paying a fair wage to state workers.  Some workers deserve a raise while others deserve a cut in pay.

On balance North Dakota does not have a problem recruiting and retaining workers so it’s not a problem of lack of pay.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 09:46 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Of course as I’ve always maintained ND state employees will share in the tax surplus that’s returned.  Of course that’s not good enough for them as those greedoes want all of the money.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 09:49 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Puzzle please check your link.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 09:52 am
Avatar for robert108

TW: Gotta disagree with you.  Budget surplus means overtaxation, period.  The only honest thing to do with excess taxes is to refund them.  Anything else is thievery.  If you are overcharged at the grocery store, do you want the money given back, or do you want to hear that they are going to use it to give their employees a raise?

Who decides what a “fair wage” is for govt employees?  The union?

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 09:52 am
Avatar for bullwinkle

It belongs to the people and the money would still be the people’s with a permanent fund. It would keep taxes down in the future, it would be an investment. If you can’t get a permanent fund set up then return it directly to the people, then elect some politicians who can. If people had handled the fed government that way social security wouldn’t be in the shape it’s in.

bullwinkle on July 2, 2006 at 09:59 am
Avatar for robert108

b: Sorry, but forced contribution is not investment.  The money would be more productive in private hands.  Forget about “keeping taxes down in the future”.  The only way to do that is to reduce the size and scope of govt, and to reduce the govt’s power to confiscate our money=tax rate cuts.
SS is in the shape it’s in because it is pyramid scheme, and our birth rate went down.  It has never been an investment program, even before the “trust fund” was folded into the general fund.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 10:03 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Taxes pay for the roads to be plowed in the Winter so you can get to work. Taxesit pays for the staff at the state hospital to work with drug addicts, sex offenders and mentally ill patients.  It pays for the staff at the Developmental center to educate and assist for our citizens with severe developmental disabilities.  Taxes pay for social workers to protect children from abuse and neglect. Taxes pay for workers to help senior citizes get access to prescription drugs.  Taxes help pay for nursing home care and the staffing of nursing homes.  Taxes pay for construction workers to build our roads.  And on and on and on.  You can call it confiscation all you want but most people don’t consider it confiscation when it is a service they need and want.

And you argument about overcharging is wrong.  Perhaps those grocery store employees did without a needed pay raise, because the store was having financial problems and now the store is doing much better.  The store owner certainly can give those employees a much needed payraise from the increased profits.

Oh, and for your information, R108, the governor proposes the pay raise for state employees and the legislature decides.  Geesh, thought you were so smart, you didn’t have to ask such questions.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 10:03 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Who decides what a “fair wage” is for govt employees? The union?

North Dakota employees make more than average.  Many of them do less than average.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 10:14 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Anytime you discuss taxes the government types threaten to quit cleaning the snow.  Without fail.

Puzzle, we paid for all of those services and we paid well.

We happened to overpay and that money should go back to the taxpayers which happen to include government employees. 

Why are you government types so greedy?

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 10:16 am
Avatar for robert108

P: Overcharging the customers is not profit; it’s theft. You simply misstate my point.  Programs which are hopefully beneficial to the public are a legitimate use of tax money, but that isn’t the issue here.  The govt made its budget, which included everything, including wages of its “workers”, then took more money from the taxpayers than it needed to fulfill its budget.  That is overtaxation, pure and simple.  Even you can understand that.  So, they should refund the part they didn’t budget to the taxpayers.  Simple and honest.
What if the legislature responds to the overtaxed public and refuses to raise wages?  Is that OK with you?  Who sets the requested wage levels?  The unions?  The public?

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 10:33 am
Avatar for Evan

You should be glad you don’t live in North Carolina with a Democratic legislature and a Democratic governor.  Here is an article dealing with our surplus.

http://www.newsobserver.com/114/story/456558.html

So let’s see:

State employees - 5.5% raises
Retired state employees - 3% COLA’s
Teachers - 8% raises
Community College teachers - 6% raises + 2% bonus
State Professors - 6% raises

And overall the state is raising spending by over 10% in a single year. 

But they are all heart to the taxpayers because they are now going to cap the gas tax (that was just raised in January) at 29.9 cents/gal (instead of having it continue to rise with prices), and going to lower the state sales tax by 0.25%.

The sad part is that there are so many people sucking at the government teat these days, that there is only minor opposition to any of this.

Evan on July 2, 2006 at 10:47 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Robert108:  Spot on.

Actually the job market should set the wages earned by state employees.  If that were the case, however, they would take a pay cut.

By the way, Puzzle mentioned highway workers.  As you drive in the state take note about how many highway workers you see working.

The only ones I’d hire would be those guys that put up the orange cones. (Usually Newman signs).

They’re awesome.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 11:24 am
Avatar for bullwinkle

You have three main choices of what to do with the money.

1. Rebate it to taxpayers.

They’ll redistribute it as much as they can and use it to buy votes from the parasites.

2. Let them roll into next year’s budget.

They won’t make the same mistake twice, they’ll spend every bit of it and make sure there’s a deficit.

3. Permanent fund.

Once it’s established any future surplus can be added to it. It’s not the ideal thing but even the parasites will be against overtaxing you if they can’t get their greedy hands on it. If you get lucky they might even move and relieve you of the burden they create. If it’s done properly it can keep taxes lower, tie the legislature’s hands on spending and taxing, take away any incentive to overtax you again, and most importantly, discourage liberals from moving to your state and encourage those already there to leave. You could have better roads, schools, and services in general and fewer liberal scum trying to pick your pockets. As close to Heaven on Earth as you can get without actually deporting or shooting them all.

bullwinkle on July 2, 2006 at 11:27 am
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

R108, I used your very example and now you make excuses why it doesn’t apply. You’re so silly when you someone uses your very example then you whine about being mistated, you are so silly. 

Whistler, the Department of Human Services, the largest agency in the state loses half of all its new employees in the first year.  I’d say they have a problem in retaining employees, wouldn’t you?
Whistler, you wrote:  “Anytime you discuss taxes the government types threaten to quit cleaning the snow. Without fail. Puzzle, we paid for all of those services and we paid well.” My comment was aimed at R108, who claimed tax dollars were “confiscated”. Further, I made no such “threat” to quit providing those needed services.  It was to let you anti-tax zealots know that there are needed government services that we all rely on and that you get good value for those tax dollars.  You added the threat yourself. You all think you should be able to get the best services on the cheap because you don’t want to pay yet you want the same level of services.

Bullwinkle the state has a number of permanent trust funds.  Where do you think they put all the tobacco fund money? Permanent Oil trust fund. education trust fund etc....

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 12:03 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

Whistler, the Department of Human Services, the largest agency in the state loses half of all its new employees in the first year. I’d say they have a problem in retaining employees, wouldn’t you?

Turnover is very high with all new hires.  Join the real world and you’ll find out.  Where I work we have better luck in the busy jobs.  If you have a job that’s mostly waiting around you have turnover.  From what I see the new guy is expected to work while the senior state employees watch.  Is that part of the problem?

In case you hadn’t noticed we actually have been paying for snow removal.  We actually gave 4% raises plus the last two years PLUS money to make wage adjustments. 

In case you hadn’t noticed North Dakota is 21st on the list for per capita taxes.  We actually are a high tax state with low tax (and service) expectations. 

I’d like to look into those trust funds someday.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 12:47 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

Bullwinkie

1. Rebate it to taxpayers.

They’ll redistribute it as much as they can and use it to buy votes from the parasites.

I’d accept a sales tax refund.  After all we all pay sales tax (even state employees).  At least the money will be back in the private sector where it will be used wisely.

2. Let them roll into next year’s budget.

They won’t make the same mistake twice, they’ll spend every bit of it and make sure there’s a deficit.

agreed.

3. Permanent fund.

That’s like option #2 only it’s got kinda of a delayed effect.  They’ll blow the interest rather than the principal.

It’s still our money and we should get it.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Avatar for robert108

P: I don’t understand your attack.  I did state that state services are what we are paying taxes for, which isn’t the subject of this thread; the subject of this thread is what is done with tax money that is confiscated that exceeds the budget.  Perhaps you meant this:
“And you argument about overcharging is wrong. Perhaps those grocery store employees did without a needed pay raise, because the store was having financial problems and now the store is doing much better. The store owner certainly can give those employees a much needed payraise from the increased profits.”

Overcharging is charging more than the listed price, which already includes the profit.  It is theft, no matter who does it.  If the grocery store is caught overcharging, and doesn’t return it, they should be prosecuted for that, and often are.  If they aren’t charging high enough prices or have insufficient sales volume, they go out of business, and that capital goes to where it is more productive.  This is simple economics.  They don’t get to rip you off and then use the money for whatever they want; only govt does that.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 02:41 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Sounds like that argument could be used on the oil companies and their recent price increases er overcharging.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 03:14 pm
Avatar for robert108

P: The oil companies aren’t overcharging.  An investigation cleared them, so get current.  Nice try at distraction, though.  Unlike private business, govt reaches into our pockets and takes our money. When they take more than they should, it’s theft, IMO.  A private business has to offer us something we want at a price we are willing to pay, like gasoline.  Your analogy is off, as well.  The parallel would be that the gas station is charging more than the advertised pump price.  Whenever that is found, they are forced to return it.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 03:21 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

Most “oil money” goes to governments.  Nearly all imported oil is government “owned”.  Quite a bit of the domestic production comes from government “owned” land.

When oil is taken from private lands there is an extraction tax.

Aside from that the oil companies merely have to produce the oil, transport it to the refineries, refine it, pipe it to the localities where it’s trucked again.  Then you have to pump it out of the tank and pay taxes on it again.

Of course refineries, and oil tankers, and pipelines and gas stations are cheap to build and maintain.

I’d bet that even today that 70% of your gasoline dollar goes to the government.  What’s the final figure on profits?  5-8%?

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 03:31 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Whistler, here is a list of the ND trusts and other funds:
State Aid Distribution Fund
Resource Trust Fund
Land and minerals Trust Fund
Common Schools Trust Fund
Water Development trust Fund
Health Care Trust Fund
Foundation aid Stabilization Funds
Permanent Oil Trust Fund
Bonding Fund
Fire and tornado fund

Most, if not all, are legislatively created.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 04:28 pm
Avatar for bullwinkle

They can’t ‘blow’ the interest if the trust is set up properly TW. The money is earmarked for a particular program and can only be used for that program without amending the constitution. I’ve always felt that’s where any surplus should go because it’s nearly imposible to return it to the peoeple who over paid given that many sources of revenue are combined into the general fund. What normally happens with a rebate is that everyone gets a set amount with no regard for how much they might have actually overpaid and chances are the legislature will benefit from redistributing this ‘wealth’ to those who didn’t overpay or pay any taxes at all. Rebates are still Robin Hood at work, taking from those who earn and handing it out to those who don’t.

bullwinkle on July 2, 2006 at 10:56 pm
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