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Sunday, December 31, 2006

The Myth of Teachers Being Underpaid

It’s part of the religion of liberalism that teachers are vastly underpaid.  We are supposed to reduce their workload while vastly increasing their pay.

I’m sure I’m not the only one that had teachers with the nerve to indoctrinate their captive classes to their union point of view that they needed a raise.  Of course we believed what our teachers said then.  Now it’s time to examine what we were told.

The question of whether or not they are paid comes down to two points.  1) Can you hire teachers and 2) who do you compare teacher pay with.

In the first case I would say that there are plenty of applicants for teaching positions.  In the case of specialties that are hard to fill (math and science teachers) the problem is that the teacher unions insist that all teachers be paid alike.  Allowing the market to set teacher pay would certainly solve the problem.  It looks to me that teachers have the best job they can get and that’s why they generally stay around.  Many teachers hang around even when it appears that they hate their job.

The second question is generally a taboo.  Liberals don’t want an honest discussion.  If they compare teacher pay it’s with how much a CEO of a large corporation earns.  Fortunately I was able to find someone who actually did the research, although it hasn’t received much coverage.

The first question in my mind would be to compare the pay a teacher who works for the public schools with a private school teacher.  The private schools compete with public schools when in comes to hiring the best teachers.  It’s generally acknowledged that private schools do an excellent job of educating our kids.  So they must be hiring good teachers at fair wages.

The most compelling evidence that teachers are not on average underpaid comes from the world of private schools. The last comprehensive analysis, performed during the mid-1990s, indicated that average private school salaries were slightly less than 60 percent of average salaries in the public schools (though the gap between public and private schools narrows substantially when religious private schools are excluded from the analysis. See Michael Podgursky’s article, “Fringe Benefits,” on p. 71 of this issue). There is no reason to believe that this differential has changed dramatically in the past few years. In other words, a public school teacher might make more than $40,000 in annual salary, while a private school teacher with similar levels of experience and education would earn $25,000.

So teachers in private schools are earning 40% less than a public school teacher.  Interesting.

How do teaching salaries compare with other professional occupations:

Using data on household median earnings from the U.S. Department of Labor, I compared teachers with seven other professional occupations: accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, social workers, lawyers and judges, artists, and editors and reporters. Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachers—as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.

Teachers, moreover, enjoy longer vacations and work far fewer days per year than most professional workers. Consider data from the National Compensation Survey of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which computes hourly earnings per worker. The average hourly wage for all workers in the category “professional specialty” was $27.49 in 2000. Meanwhile, elementary-school teachers earned $28.79 per hour; secondary-school teachers earned $29.14 per hour; and special-education teachers earned $29.97 per hour. The average earnings for all three categories of teachers exceeded the average for all professional workers. Indeed, the average hourly wage for teachers even topped that of the highest-paid major category of workers, those whose jobs are described as “executive, administrative, and managerial.” Teachers earned more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, atmospheric and space scientists, registered nurses, physical therapists, university-level foreign-language teachers, librarians, technical writers, musicians, artists, and editors and reporters. Note that a majority of these occupations requires as much or even more educational training as does K–12 teaching.

The author of this report goes on to point out that when you consider the generous benefits packages teachers get they are even further ahead in pay.

The question is should your family make even more sacrifices in order to pay your kids teachers more than you are earning?

The simple solution to the question of teacher pay is to break up the public school monopoly and educate our children through vouchers.  That will introduce the market into the education industry.

Comments

Avatar for richNJ

Halleluiah and pass the gravy. Being a NJ boy I can understand your reluctance to understand why teachers think they have been getting the short end of the pay/benefit stick. I live in a State with one of the highest property taxes. Mainly because of the runaway School Boards in this State. I put my child into Catholic School once she reached High School age. I did so because the High School she was going to attend has to have a police officer in the school at all times. I feel that the school boards have lost control of the system.
But I was able to keep in touch with how the public schools were doing even though my kids had switched schools. When I attended the parents nights and other school functions I talked to most of my kids old teachers. Most of the teachers would not put their kids in public schools because they thought the education system and discipline system was better in Catholic schools.
Yet, in NJ we have a march on the State House when it is even mentioned that school spending must be brought under control. Not everyone may know that when the teachers decided to march on the State Court house in December of this year. They did so on a school day. A lot of the school system actually shut down for the day. The parents that had kids in those school systems had to either take a day off or pay for day care for their child on that day. But, the teachers got paid.
NJ may be a unique situation because of our tax structure. I do not know how other States pay for their school systems. But we have many, many problems in NJ. One of which is the runaway School Boards. I do not see an end in site and having recently retired I will be moving out of state becuase I cannot afford the taxes anymore.

richNJ on December 31, 2006 at 10:29 am

A 2004 study by the Thomas Fordham Institute, as reported in the Washington Times, showed that 28% of Washington, DC public school teachers had their own kids in private schools.  In Baltimore, it was 35%, Philadelphia 41%, Chicago 39%, and the New York city and New Jersey suburbs, 33% of public school teachers had their own kids in private schools.  According to the Times article, spokesmen for both NEA and AFT refused to comment.

To be sure, this shows a certain level of hypocrisy between the unions which vigorously opposed private school voucher programs, and the actions of their individual members.  But that sort of hypocrisy is to be expected where unions are concerned.

What this study tells me, is that teachers certainly can’t be so terribly underpaid if they can afford to send their own kids to pricey private schools.  And without the benefit of vouchers, too!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on December 31, 2006 at 10:54 am
Avatar for ellinas

Teachers earned more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, atmospheric and space scientists, registered nurses, physical therapists, university-level foreign-language teachers, librarians, technical writers, musicians, artists, and editors and reporters.

As they should for they are all the above.

ellinas on December 31, 2006 at 11:24 am
Avatar for halatbis

In regard to Batone’s comments about percentages of private versus public school enrollments: I would make this observation--the ideal situation for the public school system is that every child but one will go to private schools.  Of course, the way the funding is set up the public school system will continue to be paid for each and every one, even though they do not go to public school.  I had this discussion one time with some New York state teachers.  Their view was, without question, the tax money “belongs” to the public school system.  End of discussion.

halatbis on December 31, 2006 at 11:48 am
Avatar for richNJ

Even though I sent my kids to Catholic school I have always opposed the voucher system. Man, did I get some dirty looks from the Nuns when I got into that discussion. In the long run I think vouchers will lower the standards in any of the private schools that pick up those students. I just know in NJ that when a child gets suspended or even kicked out of one of our Catholic schools, the parents will sue the school. A NJ judge will say that State money is know being used by the private school. This will allow the crazy judges in NJ to get their hands on the private schools systems and they can know tell them how things should be done. To me the voucher system is a work around for a very, very real problem in our school systems. Discipline and the cost of running our schools. The Unions must be taken on and brought under contorl. I am all in favor of the unions. In my opinion one of the reasons for the elevated state of the middle class is because of the unions. But like everything, to much control by one group will eventually cause problems. To be fair, the teachers are not the only cause of NJ’s problem. We have Superintendents with runaway salaries and benefits.
I think that vouchers will only move the problem around and not really solve it. But, I have been wrong before.

richNJ on December 31, 2006 at 11:50 am

As they should for they are all the above.

Proof of the mindlessness of the left.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Avatar for FreeRepublicans.com

The problem with public education is that there is not enough power for the schools to pay teachers what they are worth.

I think we can all agree that there are some great teachers in the public education system that are getting paid way less than they are worth because mediocre and just plain bad teachers are sucking up the funding.

I also think that we have all had at least one teacher that even when we were in their classes we realized that they were worth more than they were making and it is that anecdotal case that people exend to teachers in general.

If you take into account all the beurocratic BS as well as all the bratty spoiled kids these day it is no wonder people think they are underpaid.

But teachers here are underpaid, mainly because school districts spend too much on administive staffs that have so much duplication it is such a blatant waste.

FreeRepublicans.com on December 31, 2006 at 01:32 pm
Avatar for Ian

As a teacher with the Clark County School District, I can certainly see the above points, as well as those made in the original posting.

However, the continued insistance that educators do not work as much as other professionals is still an absurd one. 

Is it true we get the same amount of time off that our students do? Yes.  Does that mean we do nothing? Absolutly not.

Do educators get summers off? Yes. Do we sit on our collective asses and do nothing? No.

Unit and lesson planning, workshops (both madatory and voluntary), recertification, continuing our higher education, maintaining our curriculum and adapting to new texts, ideas, theories, etc. are all additional responsabilites undertaken by those in the profession.

The issue with teacher pay is one of perception. We are not viewed as professionals, there are many parents who view teachers as babysitters. How many times have you or someone you know commented how easy teachers have it and how it’s basically just sitting and making sure kids don’t kill each other?

This is not a 9-5 job or one where work can be left at the office. It is a consumate and ever changing committment. Everyone who works believes they are underpaid, I simply have a hard time seeing why educators are raked to the dogs and back for even suggesting it.

I love what I do, so the money isn’t really an issue for me, or alot of my collegues.  I get paid what I do and if I didn’t like it, I’d leave. I’m not a saint by any means and am not trying to look like a marter because I teach, so please don’t take this wrong.  Being in the system I’ve seen the perception teachers are given by many parents or critics of education and they are not favorable. Some is warranted and some is not. It just seems, once again, that money is the most important thing for both sides.

Ian on December 31, 2006 at 02:01 pm

Thanks to the public school system the schools in Louisiana are the worst in the country. The schools in New Orleans are the worst in Louisiana. That means that right across the lake from me is the biggest collection of dumb-asses in the United States.

The cause can be traced directly to teachers unions who protect the sheer incompetence of many of the teachers and a school board that is a really, really bad joke.

The state legislature down here tried to get a law passed that teachers would have to be tested periodically on the subjects they teach. Common sense, right? Not down here. They went on strike to protest the unfairness of the issue and it was contested by the union. They won.

Amazing. Oh, and by the way....once when they picketted over some issue and the picketing was on local TV you could see that some of the signs these TEACHERS carried were misspelled.

That was a hoot.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on December 31, 2006 at 03:07 pm

Why do we subject THE CHILDREN to that?


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 03:20 pm
Avatar for ellinas

As they should for they are all the above.
Proof of the mindlessness of the left.
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 03:36 pm

No attacking teachers and their pay is proof of your stupidity.Why don’t you want to pay the educators?
Why in your oppinion only CEOs of big companies deserve adequate compensation?
Teachers have america’s future in their hands.

ellinas on December 31, 2006 at 03:27 pm

No attacking teachers and their pay is proof of your stupidity.Why don’t you want to pay the educators?

Boy are you a maroon.  I point out that teachers are paid above most any profession and you claim I’m attacking them.  Leftie idiots like ellinas (who’s one step from claiming to be a teacher) won’t be happy until teachers are paid more than EVERYONE else.  Of course he feels that someone else should actually pay for it.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 04:12 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Boy are you a maroon.
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 07:12 pm

There you go lying again.
I am not a maroon.
I never hid the fact that I am Greek

ellinas on December 31, 2006 at 04:27 pm

Ellinas said:

Why don’t you want to pay the educators?

I do. I just want my money’s worth and that’s NOT what we’re getting under the current system. They deserve to be paid well. BUT - as so many are very quick to point out when it comes to my profession - they are paid by the public.

So...tell me again how we’re getting our money’s worth when American education levels are sinking lower aned lower each year when compared to other developed nations.

I’ll hold my breath while you come up with a rational reply.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on December 31, 2006 at 04:31 pm

The proper pay of teachers is an interesting thing.

Certainly we have problems in the government controlled union dominated industry that we have now.

What we do know is that we spend more than any other nation on education and we don’t do that well in standardized tests.

So where to set the pay.  Who do you compare them with.  How do you remove politics out of the equation.

The simple answer is the break up the public school monopoloy.  The market will set the price for teachers.  Private schools will not tolerate a bad teacher stinking up their school.  Good teachers will be rewarded.

Too bad the liberals are standing in the way of giving our kids the best chance in life.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 04:39 pm

Whistler said:

The simple solution to the question of teacher pay is to break up the public school monopoly and educate our children through vouchers.  That will introduce the market into the education industry.

This would mean that tghey would have to keep a high standard of performance in order to keep their jobs.

Teaching is the only profession I can think of off the top of my head where tenure will protect the incompetent. Just stick around long enough without serious violations - and you’re in for good. You just have to show up for job security.

That ain’t no way to run a railroad.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on December 31, 2006 at 04:55 pm

Pilgrim, and the teachers that produce like the professionals they claim they are will be paid accordingly.

The teachers who are unqualified for their positions and are currently harming our kids will go on to find something they can do.

That will create more demand for better teachers which very well will keep their pay up.

The market would also keep administration costs in line.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 05:04 pm

My wife is a high school teacher and I work for a district and I can say that this piece is 100% correct.  For every teacher who does all the things that Ian suggests, there are a dozen who do the absolute minimum to get by.  For example in our little district, the state requires a teacher to have 60 hours of professional development in a year.  That’s 10 days worth (workshops are 6 hours a day.) All told, the average teacher is required to wrk 190 days in a year, including those 10 days.  Even one day beyond that requires the district to pay the teacher for that day.  Compare that to the 260-day work year.  Evening taking off 2 weeks for vacations and another 5 days for holidays, that still leaves 245 work days.  Hardly a case of teachers being overworked.

I know a teacher who constantly somplains that she works too much and gets paid too little (she once complained about getting a “piddly, little 15% raise”.) She especially complains that she never has time off during the summer.  This past summer, I heard her comment tht she had averaged taking her own kids to an amusement park 3 ties a week during the summer.  Hardly an example of a teahcer beign overworked.

A lot of teacher stake college classes duringthe summer, but it’s not to further their education.  Since most teacher pay scales reward higher education, they take the classes to move up the pay scale.  It’s OK to get more money because you took a college class, but it’s not OK to pay a good teacher or a teacher in a shortage field more money.  That would just be wrong.


"Although I can accept talking scarecrows, lions and great wizards in emerald cities, I find it hard to believe there is no paperwork involved when your house lands on a witch.”
- Dave James

Steve L. on December 31, 2006 at 06:50 pm

...taking her own kids to an amusement park 3 times a week during the summer…

Amusement parks ain’t cheap, either! Not and cry poor mouth!



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on December 31, 2006 at 07:03 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Private schools will not tolerate a bad teacher stinking up their school.  Good teachers will be rewarded.
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 07:39 pm

Private schools will not tolerate a bad student stinking up their school.
They only accept good learners that are well behaved.

I sent my firstborn to a private religious (Christian) school. As soon as I found out what kind of bullshit they were teaching him, I pulled him out.
Can any of you imagine the teacher saying she was hearing screams come out of a barrel where books with horror stories were being burned?

ellinas on December 31, 2006 at 07:03 pm

No I can’t.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 07:17 pm

By way ellinas there are many private schools today that specialize in teaching the failures of the public school system.

So of course you’re wrong that troubled youths won’t have a chance.

On the other hand at some point you have to realize that people go to schools to learn.  If they refuse to do so then they have no business ruining the education of the rest of the school.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 07:23 pm
Avatar for ellinas

No I can’t.
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 10:17 pm

I didn’t think so. I could not believe my ears either, It was a school run by a church called “Assemblies of God”.

On the other hand at some point you have to realize that people go to schools to learn.  If they refuse to do so then they have no business ruining the education of the rest of the school.
The Whistler on December 31, 2006 at 10:23 pm

I agree with you 100%. Thats how was in Greece. You either learned and behaved or you were out. No courts no appeals, arbitrators nothing. If one was a problem child his parents were called to school to sit with their child and attempt to correct the misbehaviour. If they failed they were out.

ellinas on December 31, 2006 at 10:22 pm

ellinas: The problem here is that our public schools are a socialist monopoly, with the result that bad or misbehaving students are considered “victims” and are catered to, at the expense of the rest of the students, who well might be there to learn.  Socialists are very much into the ideology of victimization, “minority rights” and all the rest of that garbage.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on December 31, 2006 at 11:04 pm
Avatar for mgraves

Pilgrim, don’t forget the civil service: get in, get past probation, and you’re harder to get rid of than a bad nickname.

mgraves on January 1, 2007 at 12:30 am
Avatar for Bob

Another blame the teacher post!

There is no way to explain all that is wrong with the above sentiment in one response, but here are a few thoughts . . .

1. Private schools also pay their teachers the same based on seniority.  Yet, apparently that is okay for them but not public schools.

2. The biggest difference between public v. private school is simply that public schools have to service all children.  Public school teachers understand there are students they do not want their own children associating with, therefore, they send their own children to private school to avoid certain students. 

3. Not all teachers are evil, liberal, etc.

4. Some public school teachers favor merit pay.  Some of us even support year-round education and a longer academic day.  Of course, I would want to be compensated for that.

5. Say what you want, but I could easily double my salary in the private sector.  Could everyone?  Doubtful.

Criticisms of an industry that are full of stereotypes does nothing to move the issue forward.  Are there problems with public education?  Absolutely.  But as the last budget that voters get to vote upon and where the results of our work are fodder for the opinion page, cocktail party, and blogs, I suggest that it is not so simple as to blame the teacher unions (of which I am forced to financially support by law, not desire).

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 07:24 am

5. Say what you want, but I could easily double my salary in the private sector.  Could everyone?  Doubtful.

Without knowing you I can’t judge on that.  However most teachers have the best paying job they could get.  Not all, but most.

I see you’re resorting to the “We have to teach all kids.” Does that excuse the fact that some schools are failing our kids.

By and Large I’m quite happy with my school and the teachers we’ve had.  That doesn’t mean that our schools can’t be better.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 1, 2007 at 08:02 am
Avatar for Bob

Does that excuse the fact that some schools are failing our kids.

Absolutely not.  There are big issues with public education.  Let’s not begin with the teachers who are swung back and forth as the public, administrators, and politicians redefine their roles constantly.  You and others may be very surprised at how little academic time teachers are afforded in a school day.

Have the teachers decided to feed two if not three meals to their pupils?  Have teachers decided to lower expectations so physical violence and foul language are dismissed routinely?  Ask my wife who teaches three year olds about that.  Have teachers decided that character education trumps academics? 

Problems in education?  Absolutely!  Are teachers to blame?  Some.  Is there a much larger issue at work beyond teachers?  Most definitely.  Start there.

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 09:29 am

Bob: The genesis of the problem with our public schools is that they are a socialist monopoly.  No good can come of that.  Every single element in the mix is part of the problem, including the teachers, but they are probably less at fault than any of the other elements.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 09:32 am

Good point R108:

The government being involved rewards good teachers and bad teachers alike. 

It appears that several good teachers are actually somewhat supportive of these changes.

Can we start with agreeing that schools should be good for the children that want to learn before they are good for the teachers?


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 1, 2007 at 09:52 am

TW: There is an old saying in economics that “Bad money drives out the good money”, and it is true here, as well.  Bad education drives out the good, at least in the public school system.  Since the public schools can confiscate our money, less is left over for parents to spend on their childrens’ education, in the form of private schools, home schooling, and the like.  It’s just wrong, and we all suffer for it.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:16 am
Avatar for Bob

robert108,

If your point is that we have no business having government-run schools, you won’t get an argument from me.  But the plain fact of the matter is that we do have these schools and there are problems.  The “fix” everybody wants to see is to take some hide out of the teachers’ backsides. 

That doesn’t fix the problem.

We can discuss the benefits public workers earn all day, but what is good for the children, as The Whistler puts it, isn’t addressed one iota by doing so.

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 10:18 am

Bob: I only pointed out that the public schools are a socialist monopoly.  Do with that what you will, but please don’t put words in my mouth I never said.
A logical conclusion would be to break up the monopoly; that is, allow other forms of schooling a level playing field by, oh, I don’t know, school vouchers, for instance.
If you want to support an extreme suggestion such as the one you made, feel free; just don’t include me in that one.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:28 am

Bob: To put it more simply: Our society is mainly a meritocracy, but is saddled with an educational system which is not based on merit at all.  I consider that a long-term problem; don’t you?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:31 am
Avatar for Bob

I wasn’t trying to corner you into a strawman.  There is a good argument there, but it is theoretical, not practical.

So, back on topic, how do we “fix” public education?

I contend reducing teacher benefits does not do so.  I contend that the issue is beyond a teacher’s ability to fix it.  If this is true, why blame the teachers?  That is my point.

Vouchers?  I have no issue with them other than my basic issue with educational funding: there is no role whatsoever for the federal government.  If a state desires to start a voucher program, I am all for it.

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 10:40 am

First step: Abolish and defund the federal education structure completely.
Second step: Restore local control and funding.
Third step: Level the playing field for all valid forms of education; remove the privileged status of the present public education system.
Fourth step: Give up the idea of “fixing” public education; it is fundamentally flawed, and that fact needs to be recognized.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:49 am

robert108… All true, and correct.  Teachers are paid well.  I know.  Teachers in Europe are paid much less, but have about ten times the respect and cooperation from parents because aroung 95% of the students have parents with the same last name.  In the USA that number is about 10%.  Therein lies the problem, caused by the social democrats starting sometime around 1964. Forty years of welfare and $2 million dollars per ‘poor victim’… with no results except gangs, violence, promisquity and drugs.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on January 1, 2007 at 11:37 am
Avatar for ellinas

First step: Abolish and defund the federal education structure completely.
Second step: Restore local control and funding.
Third step: Level the playing field for all valid forms of education; remove the privileged status of the present public education system.
Fourth step: Give up the idea of “fixing” public education; it is fundamentally flawed, and that fact needs to be recognized.
robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 01:49 pm

If this is what you guys want why then attack the teachers?

ellinas on January 1, 2007 at 11:56 am

Nice try ellinas.

Pointing out that the teachers are well-paid is not attacking them.  Since they make more per hour than nearly every professional job they are well paid.

We have pointed out that there are some bad teacher out there that are hurting our kids.  Do you deny that.  Are we not supposed to talk about your dirty little secret?


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 1, 2007 at 12:05 pm

I never attacked any teachers; wrong again, ellinas. I think it should be obvious that “teachers” are like any other group one might select: about 20% excellent, 20% terrible, and 60% mediocre.  Of course, that would refer to public school teachers.  Private school teachers are part of a meritocracy.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 12:07 pm

I contend reducing teacher benefits does not do so.  I contend that the issue is beyond a teacher’s ability to fix it.

Bob we’ve increased teacher pay a lot in recent years.  That hasn’t helped.  The people that claim they want to fix the schools claim that more pay will do it.  If the issues are beyond the teacher’s ability to fix it why would even further pay increases help that.

I agree that many of the problems are beyond the teachers’ ability to fix.  However there are many ‘teachers’ that need to find other jobs.  Paying them more won’t help either.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 1, 2007 at 12:08 pm

I think it should be obvious that “teachers” are like any other group one might select: about 20% excellent, 20% terrible, and 60% mediocre.

Robert any time you don’t claim that all teachers are way above average you are attacking them in liberal speak.

That is unless you’re a public school teacher that pays for private school for your kids to get them better teachers.  Somehow that’s ok.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 1, 2007 at 12:13 pm

TW: I guess it’s sort of like Nancy Pelosi and her husband hiring non-union workers for their businesses.
Typical leftie hypocrisy.
Don’t get me wrong: I wouldn’t want union workers in my business, either.  I just don’t claim to support the unions to buy their votes.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Avatar for Bob

Paying them more won’t help either.

I am asking not to take negotiated benefits.  That is what New Jersey is trying to do right now.

Removing my benefits does not increase student achievement.

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 01:52 pm

Removing my benefits does not increase student achievement.

Now the truth comes out.  Doing that might furnish some incentive for earning them, rather than simply having them provided for you, though.  In other words, benefits might be available for those whose students get the higher scores overall.  It’s not a real solution, but it might be a step in the right direction.  What we need in public education is a meritocracy that is congruent with the rest of our society.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 02:02 pm
Avatar for Bob

I haven’t a clue as to what business you are in, Robert, but I sure hope no one is sitting on the sidelines trying to find ways to remove what it is you provide your family.

Read the posts above.  Have I not stated I am willing to institute merit pay?  But in case you have not realized, what will happen first is that my benefits will go away and no merit system will be instituted.  Thus, my income is decreased and nothing has been done to increase student achievement.

The money “saved” will not be returned to the taxpayer.  Rather, it will be squandered on other government spending.  All the while, a large number of citizens will have less purchasing power.

So, removing my benefits does what? 

Rather than make a move that does not improve education, how about we come up with something that will.  Otherwise, it sure sounds like it has to be your way or no way, and that is hardly debate.

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 02:17 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Bob in case you have not noticed nothing will do for these guys, but a teacher earning $5.25 per hour in a private school. No one but them is supposed to have any employer provided benefits, because benefits saddle the employer with unnesesary expenses.
Their budies in congress had 6 years to do away with the education Dept,and did what? They saddled the schools with more bureaucracy. They had 6 years to bring spending under control and did what? Record budget deficits. Now the cowards want to make up for the losses without having to do what it takes.
They don’t want to cut spending, don’t want to raise taxes on their multimilionaire benefactors, don’t want to cut funding for government programs that benefit their cronies,so what is left? The working peoples wages and benefits. And the best way to get those is to demonize those affected.
They say that other countries educational systems educate the students better. Yet thy don’t want to adopt their educational model. No siree!!! They are the only ones with the correct answer. Which is private schools paying $5.25 per hour and no benefits.
OoopppS!!! I almost forgot. The CEO and other management types will be making millions.

ellinas on January 1, 2007 at 02:42 pm
Avatar for Bob

I am as conservative as they come, ellinas.  I certainly support the abolishment of the US Department of Education and reckless government spending. 

But I find it amazing that there is such disdain for the public worker in our society.  I was reared to believe that being in the public sector is noble.  The reality is otherwise.

Folks decry the results of public education.  Rather than understand what is going on with education, money is looked at.  We just ended a period when government threw a ton of money at education.  The money didn’t produce results, miraculously surprising some.  So now folks want to swing in the opposite direction.  That includes going after the benefits of the teachers. 

This mindset is as flawed as throwing money at the problem.  Public education is failing not because of money and not because there is dead weight in the profession.  Public education is failing because the institution is built to educate a student who is decreasingly-existing anymore. 

Students are not coming to school well-rested, fed, dressed, and returning to a supportive family.  To counteract that, society now has imposed that education now includes feeding, clothing, providing medical care, etc.  Society has decided that the least-restrictive environment is what is best for all children, so classrooms now are inclusive of all students, regardless of ability.  But because society decided to remove all that money it threw at the institution, there are no services provided to deal with the issues that are prevalent throughout.

. . . unless you count character education.  Society has decided that self esteem is so important, that academic time is sacrificed for programs to counsel those students who are having a difficult time because of abuse, alcoholism, ADHD, etc.  So these students are in and out of the classroom all day to discuss their issues.  Is it any wonder that the results of their academic achievement is less than desired?

But having teachers contribute to their medical benefits somehow will correct that system . . . until society determines that public education should shoulder even more tasks it is ill-equipped to handle.

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 03:07 pm

ellinas-- I have an interview with one of your private schools you spoke of earlier (above).  I will report on the pay per hour.  I will bet you right now that even the substitute pay will be far greater than $5.25 per hour (and this is in South Carolina).  Want to bet?

A few years ago, before 9/11/01 and returning to active duty, I toyed with the idea of getting back into teaching at a private school.  Of three interviews, the lowest pay was around $30,000 per year for 190 days, 6-7 hour days.  Taking the 7 figure and X by 190 = 1,330 hours divided into the above salary = about $22.56 per hour.  Please check my math for me.  That would be quite a bit above your $5.25 quote.  Stop the foolishness.  Quote facts, not opinion.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on January 1, 2007 at 03:46 pm

mgraves said:

Pilgrim, don’t forget the civil service: get in, get past probation, and you’re harder to get rid of than a bad nickname.

Civil service will NOT protect an employee the way tenure and the teacher’s union will protect teachers. Unions have deep pockets and provide lawyers/representatives to fight an employee’s dismissal or other disciplinary action.

Civil service is simply an entity that will listen to the appeal of a disciplinary action. They can overturn it, granted, but if proper documentation of an employee’s disciplinary action is there it’s tough to get a fair action overturned.

Unions and civil service are two way different things.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on January 1, 2007 at 05:37 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Chief RZ please also find out what is the entry level salary for public shool employees.
For those of ypu that like to demonize public school teachers my 17 year old son is a product of the same public schools some of you disdain so much yet he will be going to Harvard next year, How did that happen?

ellinas on January 1, 2007 at 06:26 pm

Harvard?  Mostly a name.  Congratulations, but that doesn’t prove that our public education system is doing a good job, not by a long shot.  Your son may be motivated, which is the most important thing, but many slide through that aren’t motivated, which is the problem.  Your emotion-based anecdote doesn’t prove anything about schools in general.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 06:45 pm

ellinas-- about $30,000 +/- a thousand or two depending on the school district.  But, that does not include the benefit of the state health plan—dental and medical.  The last time I tried to get an individual indurance plan for someone aged 25, it was about $300 per month, so that would be worth $3,600 non-taxable.  Add to that the retirement benefit and you get close to $50-100 per hour. 

I do not demonize most public school teachers.  The National Education Association-Union and the Federal Government’s $25 Billion dollar do-nothing and harm schools arm is.  Abraham Lincoln was home schooled!

Where do you live, and have you ever visited a public school unannounced?
You and all the taxpayers and the general public would be shocked at the incompetence and lack of discipline and learning.

I, also was a product of a public school education, but that was before 1969 when everything went “south”.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on January 1, 2007 at 06:56 pm

The CEO and other management types will be
making millions.

This is the worst of your BS.  In the first place, no taxpayers have their money confiscated to pay for management, and management earns what they are paid.  Teachers are public employees, for the most part, and private school teachers(who make considerably more than you say they do) are handicapped because all those parents who send their children to private schools already have to pay taxes for the public schools, even though they don’t use them.  Is that fair?
You compare apples and oranges, and come up with a lemon.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 07:32 pm

I haven’t a clue as to what business you are in, Robert, but I sure hope no one is sitting on the sidelines trying to find ways to remove what it is you
provide your family.

No need for personal attack here.  I have owned and managed a number of businesses, and none of them have been of the nature that anyone could “remove what it is I provide my family”.  I have been in the private sector, and no one is holding my hand and providing for me, either.  I have earned everything I have gotten, and nothing was confiscated from taxpayers to pay me.  I have always offered a product or service for which there was a demand.
Your choice of profession has taken a lot of power our of your hands, and has made you dependent on the vagaries of govt and politics, and that is unfortunate.
Remember when I said that our society is essentially a meritocracy, and that we need an educational system based on merit?  I have always paid for my benefits, so I’m not sympathetic to those who have the taxpayers pay for theirs, and who whine when they have to pay something.  Sorry.  I think education should be mostly private sector, with a small part for the public who really can’t afford some type of schooling.  That was the original intent of the public educational system, but it has grown into a monster that sucks up almost all the resources, and gives us an inferior product in return.  I blame the govt, the unions and the excessive compensation for administrators(a dependable feature of socialist enterprises); the teachers get it in the neck; they are the “proletariat” in your system.  IMO, a complete and fundamental overhaul is needed.  There is no “fix”.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 07:41 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Harvard?  Mostly a name.
robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 09:45 pm

So where does one have to go to meet your standards?
Ps. He was also accepted at Penn.

I do not demonize most public school teachers.  The National Education Association-Union and the Federal Government’s $25 Billion dollar do-nothing and harm schools arm is.
Chief RZ on January 1, 2007 at 09:56 pm
If feds take their $25 billion and return it to the taxpayers I would have no problem. But like I said earlier “Their budies in congress had 6 years to do away with the education Dept,and did what? They saddled the schools with more bureaucracy.”
Furthermore Chief RZ is that $30.000+ going to be adequate for retirement investment? Here in California you can not get health insurance for $300.00.

ellinas on January 1, 2007 at 07:51 pm

If feds take their $25 billion and return it to the taxpayers I would have no problem.

ellinas: If they did that, why take it in the first place? The answer to that one might just give you a clue to what is really going on with govt confiscation programs.
I notice that, in your zeal to attack me, you left out the part where I congratulated you on your son’s acceptance to Harvard.  You took my evaluation of Harvard personally(it wasn’t personal), but you chose to ignore my congratulations, which were personal.  Weird values have you.  I guess you partisan hatred clouds your mind.  Public education has been screwed up for a lot longer than six years, and it’s not because of the present administration; it’s the invasion of the lefties into what used to be a meritocracy; they have turned it(especially the colleges) into their propaganda and indoctrination arm.  That is what has happened to Harvard, which is just one of many to suffer this fate.  Sorry your rage blinds you so much.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 07:59 pm

But I find it amazing that there is such disdain for the public worker in our society.  I was reared to believe that being in the public sector is noble.  The reality is otherwise.

Bob is there something magical about being a public employee that makes them so special that the people that pay the bills can not question the job they are doing?

Public employees work for us and should be held to a high standard.  In the case of teachers we are paying them quite well (the point of the post).

Is that bashing of teachers?  If so, how?


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on January 1, 2007 at 08:15 pm

I was reared to believe that being in the public sector is noble.

My experience is that those who choose the public sector don’t have the confidence that they can succeed in the private sector; either that, or they like living off the earnings of others, and value security more than freedom.  The myth of the nobility of public service is long dead, slain by the perfidy and corruption by numerous public “servants” who were just the opposite.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 08:22 pm
Avatar for ellinas

I guess you partisan hatred clouds your mind.
and
I notice that, in your zeal to attack me, you left out the part where I congratulated you on your son’s acceptance to Harvard.  You took my evaluation of Harvard personally(it wasn’t personal), but you chose to ignore my congratulations, which were personal.  Weird values have you.
robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:59 pm

Robert has it ever occured to you that I don’t attack “you” personaly but only what you say?
I do not know you to hate you, nor am I a partizan hack. I would like to meet any number of you personaly to see who is the person behind the words.
I do find all of you very interesting because your value system is different. Hell I don’t even dislike 2Hotel9 or the Whistler in spite of the constant rubbing. Remember what I told you long time ago? That I respect you as a worthwhile debating opponent?
You have done no harm to me or mine to merit my hatred. As you say nothing personal. I consider all of you guys here at SA as long distance friends. Many a time friends argue and point out their friends deficiencies. And that is exactly what I expect from a friend. I have no respect for an ass kisser.
By the way You do have a weird way of congratulating.
Thank you very much.
Now lets get it through your thick scull: I don’t hate you nor do I attack “you”. I just marvel as to how different we think,and attack what you say.
Robert109 is my most cherished opponent. (I respect you, you dummy)

ellinas on January 1, 2007 at 09:18 pm
Avatar for Bob

I haven’t a clue as to what business you are in, Robert, but I sure hope no one is sitting on the sidelines trying to find ways to remove what it is you provide your family.

No need for personal attack here.

How you construe this as a personal attack is beyond me, but I am beginning to understand how you “debate”.

IMO, a complete and fundamental overhaul is needed.  There is no “fix”.

Then there is no reason to continue the discussion.

Bob on January 1, 2007 at 09:32 pm
Avatar for Bob

Bob is there something magical about being a public employee that makes them so special that the people that pay the bills can not question the job they are doing?

This is where some in the public misunderstand.  Yes, we all pay taxes, therefore, we all have an interest in education.  But that does not mean you get to supervise the employees.

For instance, the 10th Amendment states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Scan the US Constitution; education is not mentioned anywhere.  I pay federal taxes.  That does not permit me to write the budget and line-item veto the Department of Education.  Nor does questioning the grunts who work for the DOE why the DOE exists will glean any change.  Furthermore, forcing the employees of the DOE to pay into their medical benefits because I think they make too much money will do nothing to change the fact that the federal government funds public education, which is against what the US Constitution specifically states.
Bob on January 1, 2007 at 10:02 pm

That does not permit me to write the budget
and line-item veto the Department of Education.

It does, however, permit you to vote for someone who will sunset the Dept of Education.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:10 pm

How you construe this as a personal attack
is beyond me, but I am beginning to understand how you “debate”.
Yet another personal attack; how surprising!

IMO, a complete and fundamental overhaul is needed.  There is no “fix”.

Then there is no reason to continue the discussion.

No one is forcing you to do anything.  If you are out of ideas, it’s better to withdraw.  BTW, personal attack usually signals a dearth of ideas.  This is not personal for me, btw.  You have raised some interesting questions, and I have contributed my answers.  Why the animus?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:13 pm

But I find it amazing that there is such disdain for the public worker in our society.  I was reared to believe that being in the public sector is noble.  The reality is otherwise.

Bob,

Perhaps it ought to occur to you that the people who are being forced to invest their hard earned dollars (taxes) probably don’t think they are getting a particularly satisfactory return on their investment.  Hmmm?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 1, 2007 at 10:16 pm

ellinas: Compliments accepted, and appreciated.  It’s good to get some perspective on our debates; many thanks!


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:16 pm

Bat: If it were a real investment, that would be something.  If an investment is good, you can cash out with a profit, and if it is bad, you can cut your losses.  How is tax confiscation for failed social programs an investment in any meaning of the word?  It’s a forced expense.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:30 pm

I haven’t a clue as to what business you are in, Robert, but I sure hope no one is sitting on the sidelines trying to find ways to remove what it is you provide your family.

Was this meant to be complimentary, Bob? When you say you don’t know what business I am in, then there is no factual basis at all for your negative speculation, except for personal reasons.  In any case, it’s not a substantive argument. What happens to me has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of our discussion, which is teacher compensation.  Therefore, what you said is nothing more than a personal attack in lieu of a substantive argument. At the very least, it was a non-logical appeal to emotion, and is therefore irrelevant. I already told you that I pay for my “benefits”, and am unsympathetic to your complaint about having to pay for yours.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on January 1, 2007 at 10:39 pm

R108,

I had meant to place the word “invest” in quotation marks, which would have been grammatically, economically, and, most important, morally correct.

The use of the term “investment” by the economics-challenged, ethically bankrupt Left is an obscenity.  Those who honestly believe “it takes a village” to raise a child ought to be first in line for voluntary sterilization.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on January 1, 2007 at 10:47 pm

This is where some in the public misunderstand.  Yes, we all pay taxes, therefore, we all have an interest in education.

Hmmm, would you consider that government employee’s pay taxes?  With what?  Money they get from taxpayers. 

In some ways at least taxes on government workers is a facade.  That’s because higher taxes often mean higher taxes for government workers.  (I want a raise so raise taxes on everyone and give me one.  In effect that gives you more money.)

We would get the same result if we paid you less but made you exempt from taxes, right?

But that does not mean you get to supervise the employees.

Now you’re being silly.  True we do not have supervisory powers over government employees.  But if you think that means the taxpayers are supposed to pay taxes and just shut up about how the money is spent and what we get from it you’re dead wrong.

I think we’re starting to see that teacher arrogance coming out.  No wonder why you equate the noting of underperforming schools (while we spend more for education than any other nation) with bashing teachers.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming ex