The Moral Argument For Staying In Iraq

The New Republic’s Lawrence Kaplan:

f all the lines of argument President Bush has used to rally the public behind the war in Iraq, few have elicited more howls of derision than his latest. “If you think it’s bad now,” he said at a recent press conference, “imagine what Iraq would look like if the United States leaves before this government can defend itself.” To which a headline in The Washington Post offered this typical response: “bush’s new argument: it could be worse.”
Whatever its political uses, Bush’s new argument happens to be true. Yet the moral cost of abandoning a country we have turned inside-out seems not to have made the slightest impression on opinion-makers. To the extent that ethical considerations factor into the debate at all, it’s usually in favor of a rapid withdrawal from Iraq. Mostly, though, the debate over leaving has been conducted in the sterile language of geopolitics, credibility, and “misallocated” resources.
This heartlessness of the withdrawal argument responds to multiple needs that are largely unrelated to Iraq. It comforts the sensibilities of opinion-makers who have a distaste for this administration’s foreign policy and so don’t seem to feel much stake in its human consequences. It testifies to the consistency of those who, having opposed sending U.S. forces to Iraq in the first place, see nothing problematic about pulling them out today. And it offers assurance that, but for the bungled U.S. occupation, Iraq can only be better off. No one has espoused this last view more vigorously than Democratic Representative John Murtha. His summary of the situation in Iraq amounts to this: We are the problem. . . .
None of this jibes with the cliché that “redeploying United States troops is necessary for success in Iraq,” as Senator John Kerry has put it. But, for the likes of Kerry, what happens after the United leaves Iraq is beside the point; by then, the troops will be safely home. Withdrawal advocates who wear the position on their sleeves as if it were a badge of heightened moral awareness seem to forget that, as theologian Kenneth Himes wrote in Foreign Policy, “The moral imperative during the occupation is Iraqi well-being, not American interests.” Having invoked just-war tradition to oppose the war’s cause, they completely disregard its relevance to the war’s conduct–namely, the obligation to repair what the United States has smashed. The particulars of that tradition mean leaving Iraq with something better–or, at least, not worse–than what went before. That does not mean staying in Iraq forever. It does mean staying until Iraqis have the means to restrain the forces unleashed by our own actions.

Read the whole thing.
Kaplan makes the moral case for staying in Iraq perfectly, even if he’s a little long on the “we broke it so we have to fix it” stuff. I don’t quite buy that. Iraq was broken before America went there. We haven’t made things worse, we’ve made them better.
According to this article the Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled information on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq under Saddam Hussein’s regime. That’s probably low as its just the executions we know about and it doesn’t include those who died because Saddam diverted money from the UN’s humanitarian oil-for-food program into his own coffers, but we’ll use it anyway. If we consider that Saddam Hussein was in power for 24 years, those 600,000 executions puts his yearly death toll at about 25,000/year.
According to the Iraq Body Count website’s estimates on Iraqi civilian casualties since the U.S. invasion a maximum of 46,537 civilians have died. We’ve been in Iraq for 3 years and six months (almost to the day), so that works out to about 13,296 civilian deaths per year. Of course, not all of those deaths were caused by U.S. action. The terrorists we’re fighting in Iraq routinely target Iraqi civilians for their attacks, so the majority of that death toll should be credited to the jihadists.
But for comparison purposes, there are about 12,000 fewer people dying in Iraq under U.S. occupation then were dying under Saddam’s rule. It’s an imperfect calculation because the deaths under Saddam’s regime are hard to quantify, but even using low-ball numbers for Saddam’s body counts shows that fewer Iraqis are dying in Iraq now than before the U.S. invasion.
So again, Iraq was broken before we invaded. We’ve made things better since we’ve invaded. They aren’t totally fixed now, but the situation is much improved.

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  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Robert, I don’t think that we ever looked at Saddam as being our guy but that it was worth giving him some support so that Iran was victorious.

    Meanwhile I doubt that the Soviets looked at the Mullahocracy as their friends, but it was worth supporting them.

    At that point I don’t think we were as concerned with the hostage situation as with keeping that are from spinning out of control. Having the two biggest bullies in that area beat eachother to a pulp was a pretty good strategy. They sure didn’t cause any trouble for a while.

    I had thought Iraq was generally in the Soviet camp and Saddam was more a Stalinist than anything else.

  • Bat One

    The “opinion makers,” as Mr. Kaplan gently calls them, are the same left-leaning faux intellectuals who have not yet recovered from having brought the Vietnam War to an end… never mind a dishonorable one, or that others paid the price for the liberals’ perfidy… and in the process brought down the government of the despised Richard Nixon.

    Arguments like those offered by Kaplan have no meaning for those on the left, as those arguments are based on such quaint concepts as right and wrong. Those concepts may be fine for (ugh!) conservatives and (shudder!) Christians, but liberals are quick to answer to a higher calling than mere religous piety.

    The war against Saddam was over long ago. But to acknowledge that fact, to recognize that Iraq is now the beachhead in the War on Islamist Fascism, is to give credence to the Bush Doctrine. And to do that is to acknowledge that the Left is intellectually and morally bankrupt on the question of national defense. Better that Iraq crumbles into the same sort of autocratic hell as Vietnam 30 years ago, than the Liberals acknowledge that they are unfit for power.

  • carrick

    2H9:

    So, joshie, Saddam’s regime did not round up and execute thousands of Kurds, Shia, and Marsh Arabs during and after the uprising that followed the Gulf War?

    That’s what Joshid wants us to believe. It never happened. Nor did Saddam ever withhold food from Shi’ites in retribution to the uprising, causing up to 600,000 deaths through malnutrition. Pure fiction. Or, if it happened, it’s the US’s fault.

    And those mass graves? That’s just cast-PVC skeletons, no doubt made for Halloween.

    Remember, 2H9: Genocidal despotic rulers are never responsible for the evil they commit. Either it plausibly-deniably never happened, or it’s the US’s fault.

    Either way, it’s all good.

  • aNONOMISLY

    the main moral argument to me is that we are actually morally responsible to the relative minority of competent freedom-loving Iraqis ..

  • aNONOMISLY
  • gregdn

    I’m sure the thousands dying monthly in Baghdad are grateful that they didn’t die under Saddam’s regime, but come on- we need a lot more troops to pacify that place.

  • puzzlefeet

    Lik, how’s it working for us so far? The recent assessment report said the continued violence is heeding any progress to set the ministries so they are functional. If we had 50-100 people being killed each and every day in our cities, you can be damn sure that there be more forces in there.

    How in the hell will we succeed with our current situation, with the violence increasing. The insurgents aren’t going to stop on their own and they certainly aren’t stopping with the force we have there now.

    How can I be so damn sure, you ask? Well, the pentagon report even says there is no end in sight. So unless and until more troops are added, there will be more calls for the troops to withdraw due to the lack of progress and the increasing violence.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    TOW missles and counter-battery artillery radar systems and provided airborne-photorecon data.

    My understanding 2H9 is that we did not give that it great quantities, only enough to keep them from being overrun by the Iranians. Proof would be that there were no US TOW missiles shot at us in the first Gulf War.

    Having two rivals in that region is certainly better than one dominant power. In my mind what we did was a bit of genius.

  • Puzzlefeet

    It is immoral to continue down the same path. We should be putting more troops in there to get the job done. I have written this before. This is like chinese water torture, drip drip drip.

    We simply are notgoing to succeed without more troops in there to get the job done so we can be where we really need to be.

    If we don’t take control of the militias, disarm them, we will see numbers like those of Saddam. So throwing those numbers out mean absolutely nothing if we don’t actually do something to stem the tide of what is occurring in Iraq. Our troops are unable to stop what is hapenning there now. Not that they don’t want to but that we need more of them.

    Enough already.

  • aNONOMISLY

    aNON: You manage to leave out the most important

    fact in your anti-US rant: We were fighting the Communists. It was called the Cold War. They wanted to “bury” us, according to their Premier, and we stopped them from doing that. When you make any argument about our activities during the Cold War without mentioning either it or the threat of Communism at the time, you are lying to mislead.

    rob, you are misintepreting what I’ve said. I actually believe we generally allied ourselve with the rignt son-of-a-bitch in those instances. That is why I think is is really stupid when arguing against Saddam and in favor of the US to talk about all the Iranians Saddam killed with our active support.

    aNON, we sold Saddam TOW missles and counter-battery artillery radar systems and provided airborne-photorecon data. The bulk of Iraq’s armour, aircraft, artillery, and smallarms were purchased from Eastern Bloc countries and, through 3rd parties, Russia. Iran, at the start, was using American and British armor and aircraft. As the war dragged on they purchased arms from China, Brazil, and South Africa. Don’t take my word for all this, search the archives of Time, BBC, Rueters, AP, and CNN and look at the equipment each side was using. Also try at Mil Analysis Net, it will give you a good base of knowledge to work from.

    That is what the US government did directly. how about the indirect help we allowed Saddam to get from our private industritry, wink, wink?

    My understanding 2H9 is that we did not give that it great quantities, only enough to keep them from being overrun by the Iranians. Proof would be that there were no US TOW missiles shot at us in the first Gulf War.

    or that now Weapon of Mass Distruction what used against us during the Global War on Terror: The Getting Rid of Saddam?

    Having two rivals in that region is certainly better than one dominant power. In my mind what we did was a bit of genius

    except maybe when those two rivals keep each other in check. You know, the enemy of my enemy is sort-of my friend

  • aNONOMISLY

    Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam’s needless war with Iran.

    whoever wrote that seem to be really studpid, argumentitavely speaking. Do he even know what side we ACTIVELY supported and armed during that conflict. It sound as stupid as arguing the same in regard to the aid we gave to the Afghani Mujahadeens and at least indirectly to bin Laden during Russia’s Vietnam. As stupid as arguing the same agaisnt the aid Reagan gave many Latin Americans son-of-a-bitches during the same period. As stupid as arguing the same against the aid and support we gave the son-of-a-bitches we armed, supported and fought with (and somewhat for though it wasn’t our direct stratigic goal) during the Vietnam War

  • robert108

    aNON: You manage to leave out the most important fact in your anti-US rant: We were fighting the Communists. It was called the Cold War. They wanted to “bury” us, according to their Premier, and we stopped them from doing that. When you make any argument about our activities during the Cold War without mentioning either it or the threat of Communism at the time, you are lying to mislead.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    This is like chinese water torture, drip drip drip.

    They kill one. We kill thirty.

    Yep. We’ll lose like that. It’s obvious, isn’t it?

    We simply are notgoing to succeed without more troops in there to get the job done so we can be where we really need to be.

    What makes you so damn sure?

  • robert108

    TW: I guess the Iranians taking our hostages in 1979 had no effect on the situation, then. My bad. I’m not trying to say that Saddam was any sort of a good guy, but he did offer to side with us, while Iran was on the Soviet side. Don’t underestimate the value of that at the time. We weren’t sure we would win. We were looking for any support for us in the region at that time. He wasn’t an ally like Britain, but he was friendly to us.

  • Dave

    Rob: My bad. I read it in a hurry. Apologies.

  • 2Hotel9

    aNON, we sold Saddam TOW missles and counter-battery artillery radar systems and provided airborne-photorecon data. The bulk of Iraq’s armour, aircraft, artillery, and smallarms were purchased from Eastern Bloc countries and, through 3rd parties, Russia. Iran, at the start, was using American and British armor and aircraft. As the war dragged on they purchased arms from China, Brazil, and South Africa. Don’t take my word for all this, search the archives of Time, BBC, Rueters, AP, and CNN and look at the equipment each side was using. Also try at Mil Analysis Net, it will give you a good base of knowledge to work from.

  • Bat One

    It’s amazing to listen to those who say we should not have gone into Iraq and taken out Saddam because we were the ones who aided his government against the Iranians.

    After all, Iran became the bitter enemy of the US when Jimmy Carter turned a deaf ear to his former ally, the Shah of Iran.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    puzzlefeet said, The violence will not relent until we provide more force.

    Well holy shit! What a concept!

    Careful, or you might get mistaken for someone who supported going into Iraq in the first place. You’re coming dangerously close and using the same reasoning.

    Hey Rob, as they say,we broke now we have to fix it.

    We “broke” what again?

    Have I just stepped into an alternate reality where the Middle East was some peaceful place before we went into Iraq? What was it like? Please do tell!

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    it was about Saddam, who was our ally at the time against the Soviet-aligned Iran.

    All wrong.

  • robert108

    aNON: With the demise of the Soviet Union, courtesy of Ronald Reagan, they both became our enemy. So what? I don’t think the Iran/Iraq conflict was part of our strategy for the area; it was about Saddam, who was our ally at the time against the Soviet-aligned Iran. We supported the anti-Communist country at the time; we did not direct them to go to war.

  • Carrick

    Puzzle:

    It is immoral to continue down the same path. We should be putting more troops in there to get the job done. I have written this before. This is like chinese water torture, drip drip drip.

    I’m not sure “immoral to continue down the same path” is so obvious.

    The way I see it, we can either stay the current course, and build up the Iraq security forces until they can handle the job, or we can increase our presence short term. Or we can reduce our troop numbers, which frankly is just a dumb idea.

    Either reasonable path has risks associated with it:

    Increasing the troop presence in problem areas (especially Anbar) may cause more animosity and create more terrorists, thereby inflicting more civilian deaths, in addition to the increased American losses). The additional American losses could lead to a premature withdrawal due to political pressure from the Democrats.

    Keep the force levels the same until the Iraq security forces can take over (six months to two years) guarantees disenfranchisement , and more civilian deaths, and could also create more terrorists.

    Looks to me like they’ve chosen the politically less risky strategy of “staying the course”. This may actually be the best solution with the given circumstances…. Who knows.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Puzzle,

    So you are against the war, but want to send more troops in?

    I admit that I am a chicken hawk for supporting a war I wouldn’t sign up to fight in, but what does this make you?

    I’m going to coin a new word for you “Turkey Vulture.”

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Sorry but I don’t see Saddam as being our ally at the time. He was a client of the Soviets. However we helped him in order to keep the the Iranians (who were flirting with the Soviets) from gaining dominance.

    Our strategy was to keep Iran and Iraq squared off against eachother.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    That is what the US government did directly. how about the indirect help we allowed Saddam to get from our private industritry, wink, wink?

    Proof please?

  • 2Hotel9

    Puzzeledfool, what is the daily average murder rate in the 10 largest metropolitan centers in the US? Daily average per state? What is the daily average outside Anbar Province? Any idea?

  • HG

    August was just revised upwards to 1535 from 550,

    Woof, the total posted on this site was 973 not 550. Have you ever noted or notice anything positive from our war in Iraq? As far as I can tell you only see the negative.

  • HG

    Puzzle,

    Just because the pentagon report says there is no end in sight doesn’t mean that what the MSM reports is an accurate assessment. Look, you’ve seen the graphs put up on this site. Violent deaths were down 2/3 from July to August. The Iraqi military is taking more and more control. Schools and hospitals are operating, and the Iraqi people and Iraqi leadership, for the most part, want us, and need us, to stay and keep our promise. It’s not near as bad as you liberal and cohorts in the MSM make it out to be. Is it bad?
    No doubt. There is a democracy being birthed in the middle of a very unstable ME. But, America didn’t happen overnight and neither will Iraq. Clearly progress is slow but it is steady.

  • HG

    Just a piece of administration propaganda you ate.

    Let me revise my count. Down by 1/2 from July to August.

    Woof, you can’t see the forest for the trees. I thought you might be a little reasonable, but I project. My mistake.

  • http://mickhughes.awakenedwarrior.com/ Awakened Warrior

    Jihadi terrorism is as old as Islam.

    Jihad war, death and destruction have followed in the wake of Islam for hundreds of years.

    Ancient Egypt, Greece, Spain, Persia, India and several societies have experienced the deadly Islamic conquest.

    Now Jihadi terrorism has propelled to dangerous proportions and is a major threat to public health and world peace.

    Jihadi terrorists are said to have the unique ability to perpetuate their deadly terrorism wreaking havoc in every city in the world.

    It’s destructive impact on the economy, public health and public safety is widespread, and on the increase.
    That’s why we stay

  • puzzlefeet

    Here’s the cite from the most recent Pentagon;
    http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/international/20060901_military_report.pdf

    I read there where the violence has increased. Check out pages 25-38.

  • puzzlefeet

    No,Rob,what it means is that we are there, it is what it is. We can’t keep losing our guys there and think we can get the job done to get the Iraqis independent and governing.

    It absolutely does not mean that I support the mission there. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I am more than capable of writing what I mean. To continue with the same strategy with the same force is simply foolish. The violence will not relent until we provide more force. Do I like it, No, but we are there and now we have to get some semblance of a government operating. We can’t even get the ministries up and running and they are afraid to meet with the US for fear of being killed.

    Putting more troops in there, I believe won’t increase the problem more than it already is. The violence isn’t abating it is increasing.

    Hey Guttermouth, the fact of the matter is that the violence isn’t abating, it is increasing. And we are having difficulties in other provinces as well,but you keep your head in the sand, and keep saying,”we’re winning, we’re winning.

    Oh, and rob, there are many differing opinions within the democratic party and as you said about the Republicans, I say about the Dems, there isn’t anything for me to vote for in the Dems. I’d rather have them than the Rs right now.

  • aNONOMISLY

    i.e. we are responsible for the protection of the good Iraqis from the bad Iraqis. ..from the Shiite death squad and militias with great political power (e.g. Bard Brigade, Sadr’s Mahdi Army, and those other shiites enforcing strict dictatorial laws) as well as the Bathist and other Sunni insurgents.

    e.g. from this type of people:

    Iraqi Hospitals Are War’s New ‘Killing Fields’

    In growing numbers, sick and wounded Sunnis have been abducted from public hospitals operated by Iraq’s Shiite-run Health Ministry and later killed, according to patients, families of victims, doctors and government officials.

    As a result, more and more Iraqis are avoiding hospitals, making it even harder to preserve life in a city where death is seemingly everywhere. Gunshot victims are now being treated by nurses in makeshift emergency rooms set up in homes. Women giving birth are smuggled out of Baghdad and into clinics in safer provinces.

    According to patients and families of victims, the primary group kidnapping Sunnis from hospitals is the Mahdi Army, a militia controlled by anti-American Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr that has infiltrated the Iraqi security forces and several government ministries. The minister of health, Ali al-Shimari, is a member of Sadr’s political movement. In Baghdad today, it is often impossible to tell whether someone is a government official, a militia member or, as is often the case, both.

    “When their uniforms are off, they are Sadr people,” said Abu Mahdi, another of Saud’s cousins. “When their uniforms are on, they are Ministry of Interior or Ministry of Health people.”

    we hold a moral responsibility to those Iraqis seeking a peaceful co-existance.

    We are ultimetly responsible for their current predicamment

  • aNONOMISLY

    I commented, ..

    That is what the US government did directly. how about the indirect help we allowed Saddam to get from our private industritry, wink, wink?

    TW responded, ..

    Proof please?

    here are some evidences:

    Iraq’s Biological Weapons Program

    Foreign Suppliers to Iraq’s Biological Weapons Program
    Obtain Microbial Seed Stock for Standard or Novel Agent

    (source: Monterey Institute of Internaional Studies)

    Rumsfeld friendly visit to Saddam wasn’t for nothing..

    Through the non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control, the U.S. government under Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush sold or sent biological samples to Iraq under Saddam Hussein up until 1989. These materials included anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism, as well as Brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and Clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene. Some of these materials were used for Iraq’s biological weapons research program, while others were used for vaccine development.

    supplementary infomation from the George Washington University National Security ARchive

    Here’s more:

    Beginning in September, 1989, the Financial Times laid out the first charges that BNL, relying heavily on U.S. government-guaranteed loans, was funding Iraqi chemical and nuclear weapons work. For the next two and a half years, the Financial Times provided the only continuous newspaper reportage (over 300 articles) on the subject. Among the companies shipping militarily useful technology to Iraq under the eye of the U.S. government, according to the Financial Times, were Hewlett-Packard, Tektronix, and Matrix Churchill, through its Ohio branch [16].
    On 25 May 1994, The U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that pathogenic (meaning disease producing), toxigenic (meaning poisonous) and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq, pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. It added: These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. [18] The report then detailed 70 shipments (including anthrax bacillus) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program. See another list here, and another here.
    A report by Berlin’s Die Tageszeitung in 2002 reported that Iraq’s 11,000-page report to the UN Security Council listed 150 foreign companies that supported Saddam Hussein’s WMD program. Twenty-four U.S. firms were involved in exporting arms and materials to Baghdad [19].
    Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that made the report, said, “UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq’s chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs.” He added, “the executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.”
    The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents “with biological warfare significance,” including West Nile virus, according to Riegle’s investigators [

    I may be able to find you some of those Financial Times articles if you like..

  • robert108

    likwid:

    What was it like? Please do tell!

    According to Michael Moore, all they did was some kite-flying.

  • WOOF

    It turns out the official toll of violent deaths in August was just revised upwards to 1535 from 550, tripling the total.,,,
    a much-publicized drop-off in violence in August — heralded by both the Iraqi government and the US military as a sign that a new security effort in Baghdad was working — apparently didn’t exist.


    Jim Sciutto ABC News’ Senior Foreign Correspondent

    Needing better numbers they decided to only count those found murdered execution style and disregard those blown up by car bombs, mortars etc.

  • 2Hotel9

    Which provinces, name the cities? Oh and how many provinces are there in Iraq and what are the names of the key cities in each?

  • robert108

    HG: It’s all just BS quibbling. It’s a war; we want to win it. It’s that simple. Grousing over details is the coward’s way of being too chicken to come right out and say that we should lose, so they say they support the war, but disagree with everything else. I believe it’s called sophistry. They also have to keep playing “Get the President”, especially after the Plame debacle fell through.

  • robert108

    HG: I’m convinced that they are at this point totally in emotional reactivity. They hate the President, and it has driven them mad. He keeps winning, and they can’t stand it. Their sole purpose is to smear him, and nothing sticks(Plame, for instance). They have no plan, no strategy for fixing any of the world’s problems besides turning everything over to the UN, including our sovereignty. They can’t make constructive suggestions from a minority position, so they have to win, and are willing to destroy anything and everything if they think it will get them back in power. I guess the short answer is: “Yes.”

  • HG

    R108,

    I agree with your assessment. The hatred liberals have for Bush has evolved into madness no doubt.

  • WOOF

    Violent deaths were down 2/3 from July to August.

    Just a piece of administration propaganda you ate.


    Iraq Deaths Multiply in New August Count

  • robert108

    P:

    Hey Rob, as they say,we broke(it) now we have to fix it.

    Wrong. Saddam broke it about thirty years ago, and now we are helping the Iraqis to fix it. Better late than never.

  • aNONOMISLY

    ROB says,

    but I saw those revised August numbers and they were still half of July’s numbers.

    So yes, deaths are going down.

    Who’s the propagandist again?

    good link:

    Body Count in Baghdad Nearly Triples
    Morgue’s Revised Toll for August Undermines Claims by Leaders of Steep Drop in Violence

    ..the [Iraqi] Health Ministry confirmed Thursday that it planned to construct two new branch morgues in Baghdad and add doctors and refrigerator units to raise capacity to as many as 250 corpses a day

    ..

    In 2002, before U.S.-led forces entered Iraq, the Baghdad morgue averaged 15 shooting victims a month, morgue officials have said

    good link:

    BAGHDAD, Sept. 13 — Nearly 100 people were killed or found dead in the Iraqi capital over the past 24 hours, authorities said Wednesday, continuing a wave of sectarian violence that has defied American efforts to thwart the carnage.

    Sixty-two bullet-riddled corpses — some of them beheaded and all bearing signs of torture — had been found dumped in streets throughout the city since Tuesday night, said Brig. Gen. Abdullah Mahmood of the Interior Ministry. Bombings and mortar attacks targeting Iraqi police killed an additional 26 people Wednesday morning

    not much to worry though. To Iraqis killing each other is nothing but a national sport Shiites and Sunnis have been playing for millenias ..

  • 2Hotel9

    Carrick, I feel your pain, Brother! On a lighter note, you should go check out this thread. Way too funny.

  • aNONOMISLY

    FreeRepublican says in a reply to Mr. Puzzle:

    Have your cake, and sound like a hawk too.

    Great one FreepR! ..that one aught to be a classic, lol

  • 2Hotel9

    You are so full of self-righteous crap. Go tell your lies elsewhere.

  • HG

    R108,

    Are they really that hopeless? Woof, ya. But is the purpose of the debate to debunk only the most ridiculous of liberal accusations? Maybe I am being naive but I still hold out hope that some can be persuaded to at least see things reasonably.

  • 2Hotel9

    In the ’70s and early ’80s Iraq was working to develop a modern pharmecutical and pesticide industry. These are dual use technologies, easily turned to weapons production. They already had a considerable petro-chemical industry and had they continued on the track of civilian development and building a modern medical based industry there would have been no problem. The Ba’athist Party began twisting this industrial development as early as ’75, and with the ascension to power of Saddam that was accelerated. Iran, under the Shah, also was doing much the same and with the Islamic Revolution much of their progress was lost. Many expat Iranians and Iraqis are doctors and professionals in the pharmecutical and petro-chemical industries, and are leading the work on the cutting edge of those industries. Many of them left their homelands not just because of the repressive political and cultural climate, but because of the changes in direction of these respective industries. France and Germany were and are deeply involved in all of this, in several middle eastern nations, and they are not especially concerned with how the technology is going to be used. We, at least, attempted to influence them toward civilian and peaceful purposes. We failed, but we tried.

  • aNONOMISLY

    They are written by American sources and so are naturally focused on the envolvement of the US, but they are there if you reall look

    ..but specially France (remember the Iraqi Nuclear reactor under construction Israel bombed? it planned carefully so as to make sure the French contractors sent by Chirac weren’t working at the specific time it bombed)
    Germany also gave (err, sold for a profit) weaponst (including WMDs) to Iraq ..as did England.

    I giggle everytime they try and lecture us on morality.

    p.s. We now have some great hope with France, ..

    read and be pleasently shocked!

    ..the new Tony Blair?

  • HG

    you can oppose the war in Iraq and call for more troops to get the situation under control

    No, you can’t oppose the war and fight to win it.

    Maybe what you mean to say is: you can recognize mistakes were made gathering intelligence that led to our (Bush, dems, Blair, & 31 allies) decision to go to war and now let’s get the job done and get out of there?

  • aNONOMISLY
  • joshd

    “the Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled information on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq under Saddam Hussein’s regime.”

    This looks like a bunch of bullflop. If these are “the executions we know about” why doesn’t Human Rights Watch or other legitimate human rights groups know about them? They’re still using figures like 100,000 or 250,000.

    I defy anyone reading to find the raw data for the supposed “600,000 civilian executions” that we supposedly “know about”, or present a detailed description of the methodology that was used to arrive at that figure.

    Furthermore, I defy anyone to find any real information on this supposed “Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq”. Who are its directors? where does its funding come from? How long has it been in operation?..etc. etc.?

    Furthermore, any figure for killings by Saddam will be for deaths primarily from the 1980s, not for 2003 or any year anywhere near the invasion. As there is no legitimate human rights groups (as opposed to unknown and unverifiable ones like this “Documental Centre”) who allege mass killing in Iraq since at least 1991. Thus you can’t just “average” a total figure (whatever total figure) across Hussein’s entire rule and assume that the “average” figure was going on at the time of the invasion, or could be stopped by the invasion. It was not, and therefore could not.

  • 2Hotel9

    I notice in the bulk of these links that France, Germany, Italy, and Russia are little mentioned. Very telling.

  • puzzlefeet

    Hey Rob, as they say,we broke now we have to fix it. Again your premise is faulty. you can oppose the war in Iraq and call for more troops to get the situation under control so we can transfer power and get the hell out of there.

  • 2Hotel9

    So, joshie, Saddam’s regime did not round up and execute thousands of Kurds, Shia, and Marsh Arabs during and after the uprising that followed the Gulf War? He did not continue to displace any population that resisted the Ba’athist Party and its ongoing goal of placing all industry and agriculture in the hands of the Sunni minority? Human Rights Watch documented thousands of cases of forced relocation, imprisonment without trial, and mass executions from the early ’80s through 2002. Your agenda is pathetic and your talking points quite bare of substantiating facts. Now toddle on back to Daily Kos, we are done with you.

  • Dave

    According to this article the Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled information on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq under Saddam Hussein’s regime.

    That counts the Iraqi victims of the Iran-Iraq War. It’s akin to saying Bush has “executed” 2,000 soldiers in Iraq–and by “akin” I mean it’s just as ludicrous and false.

  • joshd

    2hotel9 accuses me of writing a reply “bare of substantiating facts”. This is laughable as he’s evading, entirely, my point which is that there is no substantiation for the “fact” of these “600,000 civilian executions” supposedly compiled by this supposed “Documental Centre”, and on which the entire “moral argument” given in the first posting rests. My requests for substantiation about this organization and the methods used to arrive at this figure are ignored. I wonder why.

    Next, the “uprising that followed the Gulf War” was in 1991. I said in my previous posting that “there is no legitimate human rights groups … who allege mass killing in Iraq since at least 1991.” IOW, since the Gulf War and its immediate aftermath, which is the “uprising that followed the Gulf War”.

    Next he writes: “Human Rights Watch documented thousands of cases of forced relocation, imprisonment without trial, and mass executions from the early ’80s through 2002.” But this also is not true, for the reasons I state above. HRW has not documented “thousands of cases of…mass executions from the early ’80s through 2002″. It has documented such cases from the early ’80s through 1991, not through 2002.

    HRW writes: “there were no ongoing mass killings in Iraq in early 2003″ and, after describing past instances of mass killing in the 1980s, says, “There were other moments of intense killing as well, such as the suppression of the uprisings in 1991. But on the eve of the latest Iraq war, no one contends that the Iraqi government was engaged in killing of anywhere near this magnitude, *or had been for some time.*” [emphasis added]
    http://hrw.org/wr2k4/3.htm

    The reports from HRW confirm my “agenda” and “talking points”, because my “talking points” are the truth.

    Now perhaps someone can address, rather than evade, the issue of whether this report of “600,000 civilian executions” is true, and answer my questions about it and its source.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    puzzlefeet said, How can I be so damn sure, you ask? Well, the pentagon report even says there is no end in sight. So unless and until more troops are added, there will be more calls for the troops to withdraw due to the lack of progress and the increasing violence.

    You start off with a viewpoint that I won’t argue with because it’s your point of view and I can definitely see where your thinking is.

    Then you top it off by saying something like “due to the lack of progress” and that is where we must part paths.

  • 2Hotel9

    Toot, you are correct. The stocks of TOWs we sold them were shotup killing Iranian armor, and the radar systems are delicate equipment that did not survive in usable condition to be used in the Gulf War. I hope aNON does go to the places I have suggested, she seems to be laboring under the same lack of direct knowledge that most civs do. They look at a photo of military equipment and just see “TANK: unit of issue one each” and do not understand that what they see is “GUN:155mm SP, M109A2″, or “APC: Ratel 20 Infantry Fighting Vehicle”. Or”TANK: T-62,with ablative armor”. It gives the false impression that it is all the same and is churned out at some anonimous factory, all exactly the same and available at your local Guns-R-Us store. No idea how countries procure weapons and who they do so from. No clue how countries that have no diplomatic ties to each other purchase weapon systems from their publicly declared enemies. They watch Lord of War and think they understand anything.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    You can oppose the war in Iraq and call for more troops to get the situation under control so we can transfer power and get the hell out of there.

    Have your cake, and sound like a hawk too.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Puzzle, you say that you don’t support the mission in Iraq…yet you want to complete it by sending more troops there?

    Sounds like a bunch of conflicted crap to me.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    It is immoral to continue down the same path. We should be putting more troops in there to get the job done. I have written this before. This is like chinese water torture, drip drip drip.

    We simply are notgoing to succeed without more troops in there to get the job done so we can be where we really need to be.

    If you actually believe that, then why on earth have you been supporting Jack Murtha and John Kerry as they call for an immediate withdrawal? If this is what you believe, you are not in sync with your party.

    Being in support of sending more troops to Iraq means being in support of the mission in Iraq, regardless of whether or not you supported us going there in the first place. I don’t think you really support the mission in Iraq puzzle. I think you realize how stupid withdrawal sounds now so you’re still looking for an angle where you can be anti-Bush.

    Totally pathetic.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    That counts the Iraqi victims of the Iran-Iraq War.

    Actually, Dave, it doesn’t at all. If you’d bothered to click through to the article you would have read this:

    Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam’s needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam’s reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam’s 8,000-odd days in power.

    That’s 600,000 thousand in addition to the 500,000 who died in the Iran/Iraq war. And I think that 500,000 number counts both Iraqi and Iranian casualties.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Puzzle, how is it that you can support sending more troops in to right in a mission you don’t support?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Woof, your link isn’t working…but I saw those revised August numbers and they were still half of July’s numbers.

    So yes, deaths are going down.

    Who’s the propagandist again?

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