Say Anything Blog

It’s God’s job to judge the Taliban.
It’s the Marines’ job to arrange the meeting!

Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

”(Proof) You’re, as we say in Hawaii, No Ka Oi!”

-unsolicited testimonial

What a Marine said to the CINC who visited him at Walter Reed, “Thanks for letting us do our job.”

Communism is evil

Why would anyone have expected a different outcome?  The Marine Corps is the most efficient war machine that ever existed.  It’s what we do.

Semper Fi,
Fred, GySgt USMC (Ret )

How will Pelosi credit the enemy on this one?

How will Pelosi credit the enemy on this one?

Lik,

You assume that what the Democrats say about the US military and its accomplishments are in any way related to the truth?  You know better than that.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

You assume that what the Democrats say about the US military and its accomplishments are in any way related to the truth?

Of course not. Don’t be silly. Democrats are only tangentially connected to reality and truth. They usually spend their time willfully lying about our military accomplishments.

What an Army General said to America before bush’s war:

Army chief: Force to occupy Iraq massive

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Army’s top general said Tuesday a military occupying force for a postwar Iraq could total several hundred thousand soldiers.
Iraq is “a piece of geography that’s fairly significant,” Gen. Eric K. Shinseki said at a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he said any postwar occupying force would have to be big enough to maintain safety in a country with “ethnic tensions that could lead to other problems.”

In response to questioning by Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the committee, Shinseki said he couldn’t give specific numbers of the size of an occupation force but would rely on the recommendations of commanders in the region.

“How about a range?” said Levin.

“I would say that what’s been mobilized to this point, something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers,” the general said. “Assistance from friends and allies would be helpful.”

(BTW, good to see that you trust the NY Times again)

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Poor Obama, it seems he has heard about the U.S. Marines yet.
That has to be why he thinks we are losing in Iraq.

Too bad bush didn’t stay in Afghanistan to finish the job in the first place.

The cut and run he did in Tora Bora was disgraceful.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

The cut and run he did in Tora Bora was disgraceful.

I see RBB is still citing John Kerry’s silly talking points from 2004.

Hey, RBB, time to move on.

U.S. Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora Fight

Failure to Send Troops in Pursuit Termed Major Error

The Bush administration has concluded that Osama bin Laden was present during the battle for Tora Bora late last year and that failure to commit U.S. ground troops to hunt him was its gravest error in the war against al Qaeda, according to civilian and military officials with first-hand knowledge.

Intelligence officials have assembled what they believe to be decisive evidence, from contemporary and subsequent interrogations and intercepted communications, that bin Laden began the battle of Tora Bora inside the cave complex along Afghanistan’s mountainous eastern border. Though there remains a remote chance that he died there, the intelligence community is persuaded that bin Laden slipped away in the first 10 days of December.

After-action reviews, conducted privately inside and outside the military chain of command, describe the episode as a significant defeat for the United States. A common view among those interviewed outside the U.S. Central Command is that Army Gen. Tommy R. Franks, the war’s operational commander, misjudged the interests of putative Afghan allies and let pass the best chance to capture or kill al Qaeda’s leader. Without professing second thoughts about Tora Bora, Franks has changed his approach fundamentally in subsequent battles, using Americans on the ground as first-line combat units.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Just curious. Why is it that you guys aren’t able to recognise a report like this as pro-war, pro-American propaganda, whilst you will happily claim Drop Weapons as anti-war, anti-American propaganda?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

It is pro war propaganda.

Actually, it is news from the correct war.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Why is it that you guys aren’t able to recognise a report like this as pro-war, pro-American propaganda, whilst you will happily claim Drop Weapons as anti-war, anti-American propaganda?

Oh, but it is propaganda.

Not all propaganda is created equal, however.

“realitybased"bob challenges reality, Too bad bush didn’t stay in Afghanistan to finish the job in the first place.

We’re still there. You either know this and are lying (very possible with you) or you don’t know and consequently ignorant (again, very possible with you) or you are just stupid (yet again, very possible with you).

The cut and run he did in Tora Bora was disgraceful.

Disgrace is now downgraded to mistakes?

You’re an asshole.

Actually, it is news from the correct war.

Still crying about your ideological buddy Saddam.

Anti-American bob.

ManofFireandLight - that’s it. Start with a straw man and then run with it.

See where it gets you.

Shot down quickly.

Poor deluded lik.

Still swallowing bush lies.

Anti-American lik.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

“realitybased"bob - you playing opposite day got old years ago. You’re amazingly consistent. Up is down, black is white, and being pro-America is bashing it every chance you get.

*snore*

Wake me up when you act your age. Doing the math, you’ve got about 45 years to catch up to acting your age.

You’ve got to grow out of the seven year old mentality bob.

Maybe one day, eh?

Remember lik: “realitybased” bob is like Grape Nuts®.
Poor choice! While Grape Nuts® is neither grapes nor nuts, rbb may be certifiably nuts! Heh.

Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

”(Proof) You’re, as we say in Hawaii, No Ka Oi!”

-unsolicited testimonial

Too bad bush didn’t stay in Afghanistan to finish the job in the first place.

Exactly when did US forces leave Afghanistan???

I’d suggest that you might be thinking about President Bush’s predecessor, but then he never did much of anything to hunt down al-Qaeda and bin Laden.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Not all propaganda is created equal

That’s right:

Pro-war propaganda = good
Anti-war propaganda = bad

Of course, it is as simple as black and white. There is no middle ground. /sarcasm

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Of course, it is as simple as black and white. There is no middle ground. /sarcasm

There’s also ambivalence as displayed by you.

Once again you had started with a straw man and then ran with it.

The “black and white” thinking was displayed by your straw man.

Your sarcasm just looks silly now.

Before pulling down RBB’s statements on the basis of semantics - I know you love to do that, because it is the easiest way to discredit someone’s opinions - why not think about what the man meant?

Methinks he meant:

Too bad Bush didn’t stay focussed on Afghanistan to finish the job,

but I may be wrong. Clarification, RBB?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Mano, I don’t know why you would fail to distinguish between propaganda that helps our troop morale and that propaganda that harms troop morale.

If you can’t see the difference, I don’t know what else to tell you.

Lik, I do not think it a fallacy nor ambivalence to be able to recognise propaganda in all it’s forms and develop an opinion that incorporates opposing views.

If claims are made regarding the conduct of US personnel, by fellow US personnel, then they bear official investigation.
Blanket dismissal of anti-war propaganda as lies of the liberals, coupled with blanket acceptance of good news from the front (even if it is recognised as pro-war propaganda) is no straw-man.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Ken,

There is a difference between supporting the troops and supporting the troops in criminal behaviour.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

There is a difference between supporting the troops and supporting the troops in criminal behaviour.

Behavior during wartime becomes “criminal” only when it is determined to have been such by appropriate Court Martial authority.  Any determination of “criminal behavior” prior to such lawful adjudication is propaganda.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Any determination of “criminal behavior” prior to such lawful adjudication is propaganda.

Precisely.

Remember how Jack Murtha absolutely embarrassed himself and insulted our troops by calling the Haditah marines ‘cold-blooded killers’ before the investigation even finished?

That was great propaganda for al-Qadea, wasn’t it, and it all turned out to be false.

That is why this bogus anti-troop propaganda must be opposed as much as possible.

Just what do you say if this anti-military agitprop turns out to be wrong, anyway?

Oops? Sorry?

And you leftists claim to be worried about our image around the world.

Thanks Bat. 

This discussion has bled through from RBB’s post. If a court martial has already recognised planting weapons on deceased civilians as a criminal act (handily 2H9 pointed out two cases where this was found) and former personnel claim that it was a practice recommended/condoned by senior officers and in widespread use in Iraq and Afghanistan, then it bears investigation, no? By your own criteria this is a criminal act.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

The lefties are selling defeat for the US, and have been doing so since Vietnam.  This is just more of their crap.  There were also many such false accusations against our troops in Vietnam, including the lying testimony of John Kerry.  It’s par for the course.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Ken, I take it you are an NCIS investigator and can categorically state, as a result of your investigations, that this claim is bogus anti-troop propaganda? Otherwise, how can you so casually dismiss it. Do you have first hand experience of the frontline in Afghanistan or Iraq? If not, then I’ll take the word of those who have served there over yours.

Just what do you say if this anti-military agitprop turns out to be wrong, anyway?

You have built a straw man. You seem to have convinced yourself that I am an American leftist, whilst I am a European centrist, which may make me left of you, but it certainly doesn’t make me a hate-filled liberal.

Personally, my reaction to the drop weapons article is that it bears further investigation, particularly by the military, before any conclusions should be drawn. If it turned out to be a complete fabrication, then I would be pleased that the troops had been vindicated. 
My reaction to the success in Southern Helmand is that it is a good job done by good men in a difficult situation.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Personally, my reaction to the drop weapons article is that it bears further investigation, particularly by the military, before any conclusions should be drawn. If it turned out to be a complete fabrication, then I would be pleased that the troops had been vindicated. 
My reaction to the success in Southern Helmand is that it is a good job done by good men in a difficult situation.

Ok , you support the marines for doing a good job.  How do you do this, buy talking about weapons being placed on dead non-combatants. So if a few bad apples are in a group of say a hundred thousand people, all are bad. This is such bull shit its not even funny. All cops are bad because some in the history of law enforcement have placed weapons or drugs on criminals. All teachers are bad because some have slept with students. All politicians are bad because some have been paid off to pass laws in favor of the special interest groups. Do I need to continue. What if you’re just pissed because you said “I am a European centrist” and the Marines are doing what europeans/NATO haven’t done in the last 2 years while doing combat operations in Afghanistan . Marines find the enemy’s location, get orders to attack, and don’t stop until the enemy dies, or they’re told to stop. This is something your european friends could learn from, instead of trying to avoid contact with the enemy. Well done Marines, keep up the good fight!!!!

Ken, I take it you are an NCIS investigator and can categorically state, as a result of your investigations, that this claim is bogus anti-troop propaganda? Otherwise, how can you so casually dismiss it. Do you have first hand experience of the frontline in Afghanistan or Iraq? If not, then I’ll take the word of those who have served there over yours.

Mano,

Just a bit of friendly advice here:  I’d be a little bit careful with this sort of childish sanctimony if I was you.  In the first place, this really undercuts any argument you might offer for a serious discussion of issues based on fact.  Second, by offering this type of adolescent rejoinder you are only reinforcing the perception that those who hold more liberal views are intellectually shallow and all too inclined to petulance when cornered with difficult arguments.  Third, and perhaps most pertinently, you don’t seem to be especially talented at this sort of mordant sarcasm.  If you’re not a moderately capable swimmer, it’s usually best to stay out of the pool… much less the ocean.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Bottom line is this: The Marines are doing what they’ve been doing throughout their history - locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy.

They aren’t diplomats. They’re not there to negotiate or to just occupy space. They’re there to do one thing - fight. And fight they do.

All you lefties out there can whine about past allegations of war crimes all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that the Taliban and their allies are running like rats now from the most professional fighting force in the world. Or dying.

I find it interesting that the discussion thread was quickly moved in that direction (“WAR CRIMES”)by the lefties instead of addressing the issue at hand.

I wonder - how many of those whining ever wore the uniform of any service, much less earned the right to wear the Anchor, Globe, and Eagle of the United States Marine Corps?

It’s a man thing. They wouldn’t understand.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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Ken, I take it you are an NCIS investigator and can categorically state, as a result of your investigations, that this claim is bogus anti-troop propaganda? Otherwise, how can you so casually dismiss it. Do you have first hand experience of the frontline in Afghanistan or Iraq? If not, then I’ll take the word of those who have served there over yours.

I do not have the burden of proof to prove these men are innocent. Those who say these things are commonplace, instead, have the burden of proof of proving that they are true. The proper burden of proof is ‘beyond a reasonable doubt.’

I do not understand why this is proving so difficult to comprehend.

You have built a straw man. You seem to have convinced yourself that I am an American leftist, whilst I am a European centrist, which may make me left of you, but it certainly doesn’t make me a hate-filled liberal.

You are making an assumption here. I have said no such thing about you.

Personally, my reaction to the drop weapons article is that it bears further investigation, particularly by the military, before any conclusions should be drawn. If it turned out to be a complete fabrication, then I would be pleased that the troops had been vindicated. 
My reaction to the success in Southern Helmand is that it is a good job done by good men in a difficult situation.

Couldn’t agree more.

Thanks for your concern, Bat. I’ll try harder in future.

Let’s be clear, there are no facts here. In RBB’s post, former US service personnel recount an unofficial policy of carrying drop weapons.
IMO, this requires investigation by the appropriate authorities. Dismissing it in a knee jerk reaction as leftie led bogus anti-war propaganda is not the way to engage in serious discussion.

This post, super. US marines are succeeding where British troops have been trying to make headway for two years now.
Isn’t it always the way?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Sorry Ken. Reread your post. My mistake.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Let’s be clear, there are no facts here. In RBB’s post, former US service personnel recount an unofficial policy of carrying drop weapons.
IMO, this requires investigation by the appropriate authorities.

Why should a completely unsupported accusation by people who claim to be former US service personnel be honored with an investigation?  The burden of proof is on the accuser.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

The burden of proof is on the accuser.

Indeed it is. Prove that this is merely anti-war propaganda and has no basis. It goes two ways.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

It is however interesting that none of those interviewed was willing to admit to ‘dropping weapons’ themselves, only that they had carried them just in case.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Prove that this is merely anti-war propaganda and has no basis. It goes two ways.

Wrong.  Until or unless legitimate evidence of any of this is presented and cross-examined in a court of law, it is de facto assumed to be false.  Perhaps you prefer the legal system of the Chicoms, in which any accusation is assumed to be true.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Until or unless legitimate evidence of any of this is presented and cross-examined in a court of law, it is de facto assumed to be false

Tough luck, 108. Hannitized posted this link on the related thread which gave this little gem

Sgt. Michael A. Hensley, an expert marksman and sniper trainer, testified in the court-martial of Sgt. Evan Vela.
Sergeant Hensley said he pulled out an AK-47 that he had ordered one of his men to carry and placed it near the body.
“It wasn’t uncommon for us to have stuff like that out there,” he said. They often carried incriminating items to plant on Iraqis as “insurance,” he said.

So there is already evidence of drop weapons being carried by troops. It just remains to find out how widespread the practice is.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Lawyers.  Tell you what, all you folks who think that the “Rule of Law”, applies in combat.  Pull the Marines out, and replace them with lawyers.  See what happens.

The truth is that once you enter into combat legal issues are irrelevant - except to the lawyers who see potential clients, and therefore potential income, disappearing. A lawyer will always do everything he can to ensure a never ending supply of live clients.  He will make up any excuse whatsoever.  The law is not about justice, folks.  The law is about winning.  And to a lawyer, winning means continued income.  To a soldier, winning is about who lives and who dies.

Pull the Marines out, and replace them with lawyers.  See what happens.

Great suggestion, Gunny!  Give the Marines some time off between engagements while substantially reducing our current bumper crop of attorneys.  Meanwhile, the Taliban and their Jihadist allies would become overly cocky from their success at taking out mere lawyers instead of real warriors, making the Marines job all the easier when they are sent back in to clean up the mess that used to be the lawyers.

I like it!

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Fred,

The rule of law applies to the actions of service personnel when those actions are the shooting of civilians and planting incriminating evidence on their bodies, as exhibited by the cited case. 

Of course, if you think that murder or conspiracy to obstruct justice are not legal issues during combat deployments, then there really is no hope for you. They are always legal issues. If we ignore the rule of law, then we are no better than those we are fighting.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight:

Here’s a test for you:

Scenario: Hot combat zone. Bad guys firing on you and your troops from a house. You take casualties from the house. You kick the door, take the house. Bad guys have now ditched their weapons and wait empty handed, knowing you can’t do squat now.

If they’re taken prisoner they will be released eventually and will shoot at you again. Or blow up you and or your troops. If you shoot them now, they won’t. They’re not innocents. And its just you and them in that room.

What would you do?

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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Manoffire.  The problem with your argument is this:  Who’s rule of law applies?  I can tell if you are confused:  The winners rule of law applies.  If we lose, then are you content to live with the rule of Sharia law?

Winning comes first.  As has been said;  “There is no substitute for victory”.  We can salve our collective conscience later.  As for being no better than the “other guys”, that is also determined by the winner.  Know why?  Because the loser doesn’t get a vote in the matter.

If we ignore the rule of law, then we are no better than those we are fighting.

The first step in the rule of law is probable cause.  By your own admission, there are no facts to support this allegation.  This is how we weed out the false allegations from the ones the might need to be investigated.  This video doesn’t pass the smell test.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Just me? Are all my troops dead or wounded? Would insurgents really surrender to one man?

Find the weapons, they can’t be far away and will still be hot. If not, the testimony of your troops, that there was weapons fire from this house should be enough to prosecute.
Incidentally there are people held at Gitmo on less evidence.

Do you have to kill them?

Shoot their hand off and they can’t fire a gun (I know, this is illegal too, though it would likely be understood under their Sharia mentality)

Planting a gun on the body of someone you know was firing at you, cannot really be compared with planting a gun on the body of someone who wasn’t, although I concede that in the eyes of the law there is no distinction.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Fred, there is a big difference. I do not live in Iraq, nor in Afghanistan and am unlikely to have to live under Sharia law in the UK - ever.

No war has EVER been won against a terrorist organisation or guerrilla group - peace has always been negotiated. So I’m not holding my breath for a win in the War on Terrorism. 

Robert, we weed out false allegations by investigating both the allegation and the people that made them. Until then we suspend judgement on whether they are true or false. In due course, we will find out whether these claims are true and it won’t be because you said so.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight: ” Do you have to kill them? “

You still don’t get it do you?  Yes, unless there is some intelligence value to keeping them alive, or it causes the enemy to expend more of his resources to care for his wounded.

A man with his hand blown off can still kill you.  A dead man can still kill you.  A 5 year old kid can still kill you.  When you are the pointy end of the stick, you don’t take chances.  It is not some intellectual exercise conducted in the airconditioned comfort of a US Courtroom.  It’s bloody, smelly, violent, and terminal for somebody. The professional warrior wants it over with as quickly and efficiently as possible, with as little of his own blood spilled as possible.  The lawyer, on the other hand, wants it dragged out as long as possible because he’s not the one bleeding.  When you send in troops, you have by definition given up all other alternative means of settling the dispute.  That’s why it’s called the last resort.

Warfare is the failure of politics, diplomacy, and law.  Don’t blame the military for having to cleanup your goddamn mess. !!

I do not live in Iraq, nor in Afghanistan and am unlikely to have to live under Sharia law in the UK - ever.

Mano,

It would appear that the gruesome practice of warfare isn’t the only thing subject on which you are less than well-informed.

From the BBC:

The Archbishop of Canterbury says the adoption of certain aspects of Sharia law in the UK “seems unavoidable”.

Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4’s World at One that the UK has to “face up to the fact” that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

Dr Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.
He says Muslims should not have to choose between “the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty”.

Kinda sucks being betrayed by one of your own, doesn’t it?

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Fred, I understand precisely. You take one line out of my entire response to Pilgrim and try to use that to paint me as ignorant of the realities of warfare.  I understand that there are going to be situations where one doesn’t have a choice.
For example, if I all my troops were dead or wounded and I had gone charging into a house filled with insurgents who I believed were still armed, I would deserve to die for such a foolhardy move.

If I were to find myself in this improbable situation I would most likely shoot them because I would not be able to maintain security whilst caring for my troops or searching for the insurgents weapons.

If I were put in that situation and someone tried to charge me with murder then I would tell the truth. My actions would most likely vindicate me as the only able-bodied serviceman in the situation.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

MOFAL:  You assume that radical Islam wants tolerance and it’s ‘place in the sun.”

What they want is anihilation of all moral-relativists like you and the West in general. 

I suggest a Friday visit to one of the Mosques springing up all over the UK to absorb a little militant, jihadist thought…. IF you are not roughed up and thrown out.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Betrayed by one of my own, I think not. Check your facts Bat, rather than relying on leftie tactics to discredit something I have said. You should know that the MSM can’t be relied on to report anything without sensationalising it.

The Archbishop made no proposals for sharia in either the lecture or the interview, and certainly did not call for its introduction as some kind of parallel jurisdiction to the civil law.

Instead, in the interview, rather than proposing a parallel system of law, he observed that “as a matter of fact certain provisions of sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law” . When the question was put to him that: “the application of sharia in certain circumstances - if we want to achieve this cohesion and take seriously peoples’ religion - seems unavoidable?”, he indicated his assent.
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1581

The full lecture can be found:
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1575

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight. “Fred, I understand precisely. You take one line out of my entire response to Pilgrim and try to use that to paint me as ignorant of the realities of warfare.”

Ok.  I’ll accept your admonition on it face.

But answer one question for me:  Have you ever actually been in combat?  I mean a real in your face gunfight, knifefight?  Where you can’t tell whose blood is whose?  Because if you haven’t, then you can’t possibly understand.  If you have, then we have some common ground on which to build an understanding, and I owe you an apology.

PParets

You assume that radical Islam wants tolerance and it’s ‘place in the sun.”

Do I? It’s a good job you were on hand to tell me what I think, otherwise who knows what I would have ended up saying.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

...he observed that “as a matter of fact certain provisions of sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law” . When the question was put to him that: “the application of sharia in certain circumstances - if we want to achieve this cohesion and take seriously peoples’ religion - seems unavoidable?”, he indicated his assent.

Sounds like Bat got it right, and you are just trying some leftie parsing, Man.  Your distinction makes no difference.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Sorry Fred, I have not served in the military. I have been in fights, of sorts, with armed psychiatric patients (I was staff), but no true combat experience.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight: Sorry Fred, I have not served in the military. I have been in fights, of sorts, with armed psychiatric patients (I was staff), but no true combat experience.”

Then don’t presume to tell me that you “understand”, precisely or otherwise. End of discussion.

So there is already evidence of drop weapons being carried by troops. It just remains to find out how widespread the practice is.

Wrong.  You missed the part about cross-examining any testimony. Why not include the cross, if there was any.  Unsupported and uncross-examined testimony is just noise.  I can just as easily accuse you of molesting a small child.  Should you be investigated on the basis of that?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I’m not postulating a detailed scheme, but raising a question about what the most fruitful kinds of relationship might be between the law of the state and what I have been calling “supplementary jurisdiction”. But I think were there to be – and I regard this as an open question – were there to be further forms of accommodation, then there would need to be I think, some element of transparency of monitoring which expressed a cooperative relationship rather than just parallel tracks.

I noticed that one of the questions that was posted in advance was the very simple one, “did I think that sharia could ever exist as a parallel legal system in Britain?” And I would want to say very firmly that I am not talking about parallel systems, but about how the law of the land most fruitfully, least conflictually, accommodates practice, and that will I think involve a degree of transparency on the part of communal practice

Rowan Williams

All the AofC suggests is that where a decision can be made under Sharia law and it doesn’t conflict with UK law, then such decisions would aid social cohesion. Both you, 108 and Bat are wrong.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Man: Nice parsing, but you guys are in danger, and if you don’t realize it, much the worse.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

108, are you calling him (a serving marine) a liar? That would appear to be the case.

You missed the part about cross-examining any testimony. Why not include the cross, if there was any.  Unsupported and uncross-examined testimony is just noise.  I can just as easily accuse you of molesting a small child.  Should you be investigated on the basis of that?

If you accused me of that, then undoubtedly the police would investigate - they wouldn’t be doing their job very well if they didn’t.

There is evidence in the cited case of the use of drop weapons.

The individuals in the film claim the use of drop weapons is widespread - MPs wouldn’t be doing their job very well if they didn’t investigate, even tentatively.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Nice parsing, but you guys are in danger, and if you don’t realize it, much the worse.

You can tell that from eight thousand miles away?

Do you have any practical experience of British society or are you relying on the MSM for this opinion?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Do you have any practical experience of British society or are you relying on the MSM for this opinion?

I’m sad that you are in denial about this.  Good luck.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

108, I am not in denial. I just have a bit more experience of British society. It will not happen.

I do not believe in soothsayers and prognosticators, however much of one you think you are.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

I visit the UK frequently - will be there again in late June - and I have many friends there. The Brits I know are deeply troubled about what is happening right under their noses and I see  what they are worried about every time I am there.  Muslim customs and values are spreading everywhere.

Even worse, the first glimmers are beginning to be seen here in the USA!

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

I’m sure some people are concerned, which goes a long way towards explaining why Sharia law will never be implemented at the expense of national law.

We will not allow it.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

108, are you calling him (a serving marine) a liar? That would appear to be the case.

No, I said his testimony(as reported by you) wasn’t subjected to cross-examination.  Can’t you read, or are you just another leftie troll?  In any case, if he lied, he lied.  His being a “serving Marine”(if that’s a true description) doesn’t somehow immunize him from lying.  In fact, cross-examination most often reveals mistaken perception and extenuating circumstances, rather than simple lying.  Nice try at a smear job, though.
Do you have any factual or logical arguments, or are you just here trying to tweak emotional issues?
You have already stated that there are no facts here; why do you continue to try to sell allegations against our military?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Flamer, in all the cases so far investigated evidence planting has only been proven twice. It has only been alleged 4 times. Four. Times. Two of those were not only proven to be false but lead to charges of bearing false witness for those who alleged that it had been done.

Now, perchance, would you like to enlighten us as to how many times evidence planting has been part of the convictions of UK troops who unlawfully killed civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan? You are there. Should be easy for you to supply such.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I do not believe in soothsayers and prognosticators, however much of one you think you are.

Personal attack, and still no factual or logical argument.  Not surprising.  How many subway bombings will it take to make you wake up and smell the jihad?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Oh, and as for Shari’a. The EU has made the decision. You, England, have no choice in the matter, since you are merely a subject of a client state of the European Union. Sweet dreams, baby doll.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

108, your ignorance is staggering.

All I have said is that the allegations demand investigation and that if they are proved baseless I will be pleased.

Calling me a leftie or a troll does not make me one.

The cited witness has already been convicted and demoted for his role in planting evidence in this case. How could it possibly benefit him to lie? He is still a serving marine despite ordering a junior officer to shoot a civilian and then planting an AK on the body. The court obviously already knows the circumstances of the case.

It is disingenuous of you to make such accusations without checking the links and citations which your fellow debaters post as relevant.

2H9,
Four times, it has been alleged, four times it has been investigated and twice it has been proven true. Surely this is good grounds for the basis of an investigation. I do not wish anyone to suffer unnecessarily over this, but I think that an allegation of an illegal activity has been made against the armed forces and they have a duty to vindicate themselves. Otherwise, the leftists will keep going on about it until everyone believes their version of events

I couldn’t find any cases of British troops planting evidence. A few cases of murder.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

108, your ignorance is staggering.

All I have said is that the allegations demand investigation and that if they are proved baseless I will be pleased.

Calling me a leftie or a troll does not make me one.

The cited witness has already been convicted and demoted for his role in planting evidence in this case. How could it possibly benefit him to lie? He is still a serving marine despite ordering a junior officer to shoot a civilian and then planting an AK on the body. The court obviously already knows the circumstances of the case.

It is disingenuous of you to make such accusations without checking the links and citations which your fellow debaters post as relevant.

2H9,
Four times, it has been alleged, four times it has been investigated and twice it has been proven true. Surely this is good grounds for the basis of an investigation. I do not wish anyone to suffer unnecessarily over this, but I think that an allegation of an illegal activity has been made against the armed forces and they have a duty to vindicate themselves. Otherwise, the leftists will keep going on about it until everyone believes their version of events

I couldn’t find any cases of British troops planting evidence. A few cases of murder.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

108,
It’s okay for you to call me a leftie troll which could be taken as an insult, but if I call you a soothsayer, you accuse me of a personal attack.
What a hippocrite!

Hotel,
I am not English, I am British. Please recognise this distinction.

The EU cannot and will not decide to institute Sharia law across Europe, nor in individual European nations.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Sorry, Limey, they done made the decision.

Oh, and where is your proof that CID, NCIS, and Dept of Justice are not investigating allegations of evidence planting?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Sorry Hotel, you are wrong. There is no way that Sharia law could be instituted across Europe as it would be in direct contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights

Article 9.2: Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others

.

Did I say that CID, NCIS et al weren’t already investigating drop weapons?
No, I said that because of the allegations, there should be an investigation and if they are already investigating it, then my views are borne out.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Sorry Hotel, you are wrong. There is no way that Sharia law could be instituted across Europe as it would be in direct contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights

  Article 9.2: Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others

.

Did I say that CID, NCIS et al weren’t already investigating drop weapons?
No, I said that because of the allegations, there should be an investigation and if they are already investigating it, then my views are borne out.

Look, I’m sorry to butt in, but are you not paying attention?  That Convention could be easily abrogated, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in the past, simply by eliminating the European Union. What makes you think that the 1.3 billion Muslims on the planet would hesitate?  Ahmadinijad and others have told you several times that their intention is to erase Western culture.  How do you plan to stop them?  With pills, therapy and lawsuits?  Hah!  Good luck with that, but I’d suggest you buy ammo instead.  These people are serious as a heart attack, and they will not be dissuaded by a lot of psychiatric mumbo jumbo or some BSabout winning “hearts and minds”.  This is a fight to the death, whether you like it or not.  The only question is who will die.

Flamer, the ruling body of the EU has already made their decision. You have no say or choice in the matter. English law, and you are English, is subordinate to the whims of the European Union. You have no choice in the matter, because you are a subject of a client state of the EU. Sweet dreams, babydoll.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2H9,
Evidence that the EU have already decided to institute Sharia law? Please, present it now? Otherwise i shall take it to be the mere blustering of a xenophobic, inbred redneck.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Fred, it is easier than eliminating the EU. Islamic influence upon the ruling body of the European Union is already substantial, that is one of the causatives driving the resurgence of political conservatism in recent elections in Europe. The real question is can this process be reversed without major upheaval? The inroads by Islamic political subversion are deep, and it will take a massive effort, on many levels, to drive them out.

It comes down to the question of whether our sons will have to make amphibious landings in the British Isles and the Continent to break the Mohammedan’s strangle hold, or will we be fighting their dhimmi conscript armies on our soil?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Fred, are thev world’s Catholics going to stand idly by while the Muslim hordes sack the Vatican? Will the entire population of the European continent lie down and let their throats be cut as the new Hun sweeps across Europe looting, raping and pillaging indiscriminantly. I think not. Any overt attempt by a coalition of Muslim countries (hah, the very idea is laudable!) to wage war on the West would be met with a swift and crushing defeat. Any conflagration would first focus on Israel though, so you guys would be in it from the start. One out of three isn’t bad. No more sitting on the fence to see what happens.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Take it as you will. You have no choice in the matter. You have been betrayed. I would feel pity for you, but you have chosen the path down which you walk, and only suffering, misery, and death lie before you.

They stand upon your soil, mocking you. They hold no fear of you or your “laws”. They accept only Shari’a, the Laws of Allah. They tell you that they are going to subjugate you every day. Get someone to translate that singsong wailing that pours from the loudspeakers of every Mosque. At least understand what your enemy openly tells you. Don’t die ignorant.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

“crushing defeat”? Exactly how you planning on doing that? You and your fellow citizens have surrendered your weapons. What you going to use? Bad breath and BO? Don’t think that will have much effect.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

OMG, you really are a xenophobe. What a complete and utter twat you are.

The chanting from the mosque is:

Allahu Akbar
Allah is Great
(said four times)

Ashhadu an la ilaha illa Allah
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God (Allah).
(said two times)

Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
(said two times)

Hayya ‘ala-s-Salah
Hurry to the prayer (Rise up for prayer)
(said two times)

Hayya ‘ala-l-Falah
Hurry to success (Rise up for Salvation)
(said two times)

Allahu Akbar
Allah is Great
[said two times]

La ilaha illa Allah
There is no god except the One God (Allah)

For the pre-dawn (fajr) prayer, the following phrase is inserted after the fifth part above, towards the end:

As-salatu Khayrun Minan-nawm
Prayer is better than sleep
(said two times)

http://islam.about.com/cs/prayer/f/adhan_english.htm

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight, you’re still not paying attention.  I didn’t say anything about an overt attack a’la WWII, sacking the Vatican, etc.

Europe, and the West generally, is getting old.  All the Muslims need do is out breed us.  Which they are doing, and is what they have said they will do. They also own approx. 80% of the known oil on the planet. Look beyond the end of your nose, say 20 to 30 years out. 

If you had thought about it in say 1988 would you have imagined that Great Britain would be what it is today?

Warfare takes many forms besides the individual blood and guts combat which we discussed earlier.

Wow, talk about a twat, and self delusional to boot.

See, Fred? They refuse to admit what is happening in their very midst. There is a building backlash against Islam in Europe, the question is will it succeed. Rather doubtful, given this example of English manhood.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

All I have said is that the allegations demand investigation and that if they are proved baseless I will be pleased.

You have it backwards, Man.  Facts first, then investigation.  We don’t investigate every unsupported accusation.
I gave you a little of your own medicine, and you didn’t like it.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

One last thing to maybe shed some light on this issue.  Without getting into excruciating detail; Cultural and National survival is about Demographics and Resources.  Warfare is about Logistics.  Combat is about Tactics.

That puts it in a nutshell.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Europe is more than one country, you idiot, and gun ownership remains high in most countries. Britain has strict controls, brought in by Thatcher’s conservative government, which ban everything but rifles, shotguns etc for hunting and pest control.

I’d be more concerned about your country and the threat from the Southern Americans, who seem to be uniting against a perceived bully in the playground. Spanish is fast becoming the most spoken language within the continental United States and before long you could find yourself marginalised or even under attack. Que duerma bien, tonto!

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

I gave you a little of your own medicine, and you didn’t like it.

When? Where? You accused me of personal attack when there was none, but that is just the way you react to defeat, by acting the pariah.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Fred, In twenty to thirty years, even if UK Muslims breed like rabbits, they will still make up less than 5% of the population and half of them will be of or approaching retirement age. Maybe in two hundred years they could out breed us, but it is just a bit silly to suggest that they will outnumber non muslims in a generation.

Hotel, I am not English. You are a twat though.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

When? Where? You accused me of personal attack when there was none, but that is just the way you react to defeat, by acting the pariah.

Wrong.  You missed the part that read: “In lieu of a logical or factual argument…”. I have made logical and factual arguments against your point every time, and so describing you accurately as a leftie troll is simply that, a description.  You, on the other hand, have not made logical or factual arguments, but simply have made personal attacks.  Maybe you don’t know what “in lieu of…” means, eh?  It means “instead of”.  Understand?
You are a hypocrite; you use personal attack, but when it get used against you, you squeal like a little girl, claiming to be a victim.  Grow up and learn to make factual/logical arguments, or remain a troll.  Your choice.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

2Hotel9, methinks our resident self-proclaimed shrink (Manoffireandlight) is losing his cool.  What say you?

Mano:  Really?  When I was born there were ~2 billion people on the planet.  65 years later there are 6.6 billion.  Think it can’t happen? Hmmm. Well, probably not. Unless of course Europe, etc. start declining in population like Japan has for the last 20 years or so.  You might want to take a look at the UN population projections by country for the next few years.  I’m sure you can Google it.

Robert, we weed out false allegations by investigating both the allegation and the people that made them.

Wrong. We require supporting facts before proceeding with an investigation.  As with the kidnapping of the Texas children, proceeding with an investigation, even on the basis of what appears to be facts, is not the right way to go.  Not only should supporting facts be present, but they need to be vetted before any investigation is launched.  Unless you like the Chicom style, as I mentioned before.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Not only should supporting facts be present, but they need to be vetted before any investigation is launched.  Unless you like the Chicom style, as I mentioned before.

How can you vet facts without an investigation?

How can you vet facts without an investigation?

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

Man: It’s the immigration, stupid!

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!