The Case For The Fence

• April 6, 2006

Thomas Friedman sums up my feelings on the immigration issue with one phrase:

America today is struggling to find the right balance of policies on immigration.
Personally, I favor a very high fence, with a very big gate.

Be sure to read the whole thing.
For the past couple of years this is the approach to immigration policy that I have favored.
I believe that our immigration laws should be vigorously enforced. For over a decade we just haven’t taken the issue seriously. Millions of illegal immigrants have wandered across our southern border and taken up residence in our communities. They drive down wages and avoid paying certain types of taxes like payroll taxes and income taxes.
Some would have us believe that these illegals are “good” for our economy. That they “contribute” just as much as any American. That is nonsense. Rich Lowry pointed out in a recent column that the average illegal immigrant will consume $89,000 more in government services than he/she pays in taxes over a lifetime. Many estimates put the number of illegal immigrants in this country at 11,000,000. If that’s true, those 11,000,000 illegal immigrants will end up costing this country approximately $979 trillion tax dollars over their lifetimes. As more illegals cross our southern border that number is only going to go up.
You know what comes after “trillion” in our numbering system? Quadrillion. Sound scary? It should be, and we are getting dangerously close to it.

http://Array tmoore

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: National Illegal Immigrant Protest May 5-6 2006   
National Illegal Immigrant Protest

Calendar

May 5th (Cinco De Mayo!) & May 6th 2006 – National Anti-Illegal Immigrant Protest Rally Days!

What YOU can do TODAY!

FIRE your illegal immigrant gardeners, housekeepers and day laborers! Hire U.S. Citizens to support the great United States Of America economy!
We need protest rally coordinators in every state of the country! VOLUNTEER TODAY!

http://www.illegalimmigrantprotest.com/

Here is a just a glimpse into the personal struggle that our family has endured over the last few years due to the influx of illegal immigrant criminals. I’m sure that many of you have suffered some of the same personal effects of these criminals. I would like to start this discussion by sharing my personal journey with you…..

I, (Kimberly) was hospitalized on Oct 15, 2004 with an acute appendix emergency. I had to have emergency surgery and was hospitalized for 4 days. While hospitalized, I was exposed to an illegal immigrant at the hospital who was infected with Tuberculosis (TB). This illegal immigrant was exposed to over 2000 patients and hospital staff.

Unfortunately, I was not notified of this deadly virus exposure for over 2 months. In Feb 2005 I received a letter from The Riverside County, CA Health Department officially notifying me that I had been exposed to the virus, and to IMMEDIATELY seek medical testing and attention.

I went to my family doctor who sadly confirmed that I had indeed been infected with the deadly Tuberculosis (TB) virus. I have been on medication for several months now, and we all hope that this infection will at least allow me to be able to see my children grow up.

Once the initial medical emergency and devastation feelings subsided, the ANGER set in!

We ALL need to do whatever we can, to STOP the illegal immigrant invasion of the United States Of America! This website is my small contribution, and I will work as hard as possible to make this National Anti-Illegal Immigrant protest rally a success!

This brave lady is trying to do something about the illegal Immigration problem. Anybody  here want to something besides complain?

Help out!!
Epicurus

caseydk,

Table 5 doesn’t really help your cause must, since serious crimes in that table are in the low single digit percentage range.
http://blogs.caseysoftware.com/ caseydk

Any of you guys see this site yet:  http://defendourborders.com/ ?

 

I wrote a portion of this report while I was working at the DoJ. The argument that "these people are simply hardworking people looking for a better life" is complete bullshit… the truth is that upwards of 1 in 8 are *already* wanted criminals in the US. And that’s not even counting previous immigration violations…

Here’s the money quote:

"The Metrics study found that, of the 179,094 aliens checked, 80,150 (44.8 percent) had no record, and 74,924 (41.8 percent) had prior administrative immigration violations. The remaining 24,020 (13.4 percent) of the aliens had criminal records (20,346 from Border Patrol stations and 3,674 from ports of entry)."

And then read Table 5 directly below that quote.

Source: http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/plus/e0501/results2.htm
Epicurus

Of course it would be even better for Mexicans if their nation were to weed out more corruption, create a more secure property rights regime, encourage greater capitalization, etc.
Epicurus

If one had a very big gate its unlikely that one would need a high fence.  Its unlikely, because of the protectionist/mercantilist policies of most Republicans and Democrats, that one would see such a capitalist policy come into being though.
Epicurus

Rob,

We have a very long fence along the border and lots of Border Patrol, etc. types patroling it with numerous toys.  Its quite difficult (nay impossible) to control the flow of people with fences.  Its better to let markets take their course for the vast majority of immigrants. 

As to my other comment, it clearly wasn’t directed towards you (which is why I wrote that it wasn’t directed towards you).  However, it is also quite clear that many of the anti-illegal crowd are indeed simply anti-immigrant (legal or not) – after all we have a long tradition of "nativist" feeling this country (amongst a portion of the population at any particular time at least).  
Epicurus

As a caveat I’ll note this (this isn’t really directed towards Rob’s comment):

I find quite odd that defending entitlement programs is something that anti-immigrants jump to as one of their first arguments against immigration since the anti-immigrant crowd tends to oppose (rightly) such programs in other circumstances.
ccvlje

Rob,

Larry Kudlow wrote the following is his weekly piece.

"According to Forbes magazine, only 10 percent of illegal Mexicans have sent a child to an American public school and just 5 percent have received food stamps or unemployment benefits. A U-Cal Davis study also shows that more immigrant workers lead to more economic growth. This is standard economics. Multiply an enlarged workforce times existing productivity and you get more economic growth. "

Makes sense to me. Wouldn’t you agree ?
Epicurus

ccvlje,

Most of the anti-immigrant crowd is laboring under the weight of mercantilist ideas attacked by such capitalist luminaries as David Hume and Adam Smith and by many later thinkers.
ccvlje

Rob,

Larry Kudlow wrote the following is his weekly piece.

"According to Forbes magazine, only 10 percent of illegal Mexicans have sent a child to an American public school and just 5 percent have received food stamps or unemployment benefits. A U-Cal Davis study also shows that more immigrant workers lead to more economic growth. This is standard economics. Multiply an enlarged workforce times existing productivity and you get more economic growth. "

Makes sense to me. Wouldn’t you agree ?
ccvlje

Rob,

You have some way of doing fuzzy math. First flaw. Many do not pay taxes because they are paid in cash, so anything they receive in services is greater than what they pay in taxes. Who’s fault is this, the employeer. If they were allowed to pay taxes that number would fall greatly. Second, you assumed everyone is the same age and NONE pay taxes, I believe the median age of thse immigrants is like 27. I can almost bet its the older folks using the services. Third, if employeers paid the taxes and the insurance of these follks this would not be an issue. Lastly, what you always seem to forget to mention is their purchasing power. It is at 700 billion, that is money they use to buy products and services here in the states. How many American jobs does that generate? How many have a job, because their product is being purchased by this consumer segment.  Yes its a vicious circle, but it is important that you state all the facts correctly.

 

Cheers,

ccvlje
Epicurus

Rob,

Well, not to take you too literally, in many instances I dbout that it would even have to be a real, in situ, fence. 
robert108

One solution might be to eliminate all entitlement programs for non-citizens.  That would remove what is probably the main reason for illegal immigration.  We could also enforce existing immigration laws.  None of this is rocket science.  All the politically-based lying about this subject is really making me sick.

The "They’re just coming here to work" meme is pure cr*p.  They come here to escape the mind-numbing corrupt socialist dictatorships in their home countries.  Ann Coulter’s advice might be good here. 
WETBACK

Yea Epicurus White Christian immigrants to be exact, Iam not a member of the politically correct crowd, Correct me if I’am wrong but havent we seen this scenario once before when the railroads were being made?

You know the we need the chinese because no one else will do the job spiel. And when the American people began to realize the threat that they posed because of they being un-American (to put it nicely for all you Nazi callers) Then what happened? How cruel

 Lets get real people, the railroads were built without them.

Hi all

your chinese lover

Hey "Wetback",

Quoting you, on "the Chinese": "The threat they posed because of they being un-American?"

Wow. You are just incredibly ignorant. The Chinese built the railroads under the abuse of their white "employers" who were not only depending on them, but getting a great financial deal by paying them a pittance. Do your homework. I laughed when I read that you think that white Americans thought they were "un-American" because I think what you mean is the Japanese. (read: internment camps), who by the way did nothing to merit the abuse by your intellectual ancestors. DUH – there was no war with the Chinese – did you ever take American History? What I find is that the most conservative white Americans are the least educated. The rule seems to apply without much statistical variation.

I suggest that you go back to school, starting with, say, the 3rd grade. And do us a favor, leave the privilege of reclaiming "wetback" to those who have to had to withstand being called it.

 -Your Chinese Lover

http://blogs.caseysoftware.com/ caseydk

So you’re saying those people – who are already established to be criminals – should be allowed in?

Epicurus

WETBACK,

This is a bizarre notion for a people who are indeed, a nation of immigrants.

WETBACK

Theres free-enterprise and then theres capitalism. capitalism has no borders. I dont think its possiable to be a Patriot and a capitalist at the same time. these mexicans are a huge threat to our  posterity as well as our prosperity.

you people are acting like a bunch of damn politicians playing the crunch the number game here, may I remind you "Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them."

We dont need to build a wall we need the bleeding hearts to shut the F up, and we need to defend our own damn borders with whatsoever means are   necessary because our government is a bunch of treasonist.

Hey Puzzlefeet you wanna know where I was today? I was at work,  I cant wait to hear the tuned down reports of these illegals and how there here to better themselves and America. I’am willing to bet that the only arrests were counter-demonstrators, I wonder how many bottles of battery acid where thrown by these good mexicans today? Dont forget to thank the government for allowing all these fine illegals to enter our country.

Sorry… but you’re completely wrong.  1 in 8 are people that should be in prison somewhere.  And many of them were repeat offenders (15.6% had 5+ violations, 4.4% had 10+ violations).

If you actually read the paragraph before and after Table 5, you’ll see that those who had purely administrative violations of immigration were not considered any further.

At the very least, this is a compelling reason to know who is coming in and filter out these people but allowing people "freely migrate" is suicidal. 

Rob,

Since when did a lack of a high fence equal no fence? 

Puzzlefeet

Hey, Wetback, I’ll be on the Washington Mall Monday afternoon for the immigration march.  I guess I won’t be seeing you there!

caseydk,

How am I completely wrong?  Even your figure (1 in points to a conclusion that the vast majority are not in fact lawbreakers.  If we break down that figure even more we’ll see that even that the group of lawbreakers isn’t chock full of rapists and murderers. 

As to monitoring the borders, that’s fine.  But that is far different from the anti-capitalist system we have in place today which is based more on mercantilist concerns (protecting "American jobs" and the like absurdities) than anything else.

Under a rational, capitalist immigration scheme those with mere immigration violations under a past immigration system should be allowed to freely migrate, yes.  My point was of course was that what despite you averred, the vast majortiy of the people indentified in this study either had no violations or only violations which under any rational, capitalist system of immigration wouldn’t have been applied to them.   

The.Whistler

This is/was a nation of legal immigrants.  I fully expect that my ancestors went through Ellis Island processing (or the same thing somewhere else).

http://sayanythingblog.com robport

Well, the lack of a fence hasn’t kept the illegals out so far.  Why not try a fence?  What is so wrong with it?  It would likely make border security cheaper, allowing fewer guards to cover more territory.

As for this:

I find quite odd that defending entitlement programs is something that anti-immigrants jump to as one of their first arguments against immigration since the anti-immigrant crowd tends to oppose (rightly) such programs in other circumstances.

Who is anti-immigrant?  I’m anti-illegal immigrants.

Also, I am not defending entitlements.  I am simply pointing out the very real costs associated with allowing millions of illegals to live among us.  I am, as a conservative, generally against most entitlements.  That being said, many of the entitlements in question exist despite my opposition to them and aren’t going away any time soon.  Recognizing that fact doesn’t mean I support entitlements. 

Well fine, epicurus, we’ll dispense with "high vs. low" fences and just settle with this: An effective fence that keeps the people we don’t want in out.

That ok? 

I think a fence is needed even with the gate.  Regardless of how liberal our immigration policies become, there will be some who will be denied entrance because they are criminals or security threats.  We have an immigration filtering process for a reason, and the way is part of making sure people go through that process rather than by-passing it.

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The Case For The Fence