The Obama Depression

Does Obama-nomics have us headed for another round of deflationary recession, or worse… a depression? There is growing evidence such a catastrophe may be just around the corner.

The Royal Bank of Scotland, among other elite, financial observers, is warning its clients that the global economic recovery is stalling out, both in the US and in Europe, and they must be prepared for a massive flooding of the money supply by the Federal Reserve in what may be a vain effort to fight off a world-wide deflationary recession.

The RBS warning is based on research from a variety of sources that indicates that international trade is dropping precipitously, and that the US and the rest of the developed world are headed for a major economic contraction.

RBS Credit Chief Andrew Roberts is telling investors to “think the unthinkable!”

We cannot stress enough how strongly we believe that a cliff-edge may be around the corner, for the global banking system (particularly in Europe) and for the global economy.

And the contraction will only be worsened by the tax hikes scheduled to take effect at the end of this year as the Bush tax cuts expire as demanded by Democrats. Tax hikes, particularly taxes on capital, are the very last thing an economy tumbling back into recession needs.

Meanwhile, Professor Tim Congdon of International Monetary Research believes that deflation has already taken hold and will only increase as the economy falters, then slips back into a prolonged recession.

The stock of money, M3, began falling last summer, and the pace of the decline is increasing. It fell from $14.2 trillion to $13.9 trillion in the three months to April, amounting to an annual rate of contraction of 9.6%. At the same time, assets of insitutional money market funds fell at a 37% rate, the sharpest drop ever recorded.

It’s frightening. The plunge in M3 has no precedent since the Great Depression. The dominant reason for this is that regulators across the world are pressing banks to raise capital asset ratios and to shrink their risk assets. This is why the US is not recovering properly..

Mr Congdon said the Obama regulatory policy risks repeating the strategic errors of Japan, which pushed debt to dangerously high levels with one fiscal boost after another during its Lost Decade, instead of resorting to full-blown “Friedmanite” monetary stimulus.

Fiscal policy does not work. The US has just tried the biggest fiscal experiment in history and it has failed. What matters is the quantity of money and in extremis that can be increased easily by quantititave easing. If the Fed doesn’t act, a double-dip recession is a virtual certainty.

Wall Street veteran and financial writer Bruce Krasting is also on the lookout for a massive deflationary recession.

Every day the deflation story gets stronger. Almost all of the numbers in the US are pointing in that direction…

I was anticipating a slowdown in the 4th Q. It is now looking more likely that we will fall of a cliff starting July 1st. Extended benefits will be ending. Most states start a new fiscal year and they are all dead dead dead on revenue. Any benefit we got from the census will be in reverse gear. By August 1st approximately 1mm temporary workers will again be out of a job. Housing is falling off a cliff.

Reasons for concern for our fragile economic future are turning up elsewhere as well. From Bloomberg:

The percentage of corporate bonds considered in distress is at the highest in six months, a sign that debt investors expect the economy to slow and defaults to rise.

The number of speculative-grade companies worldwide with yields at least 10 percentage points more than government bonds climbed to 399 this month, or 16.7 percent of the total, the highest share since December, according to Bank of America Merrill Lynch index data…

The 2010 default rate in the U.S. may jump as high as 6 percent by year-end from 1.3 percent currently, according to analysts at Goldman Sachs Group Inc…

Elsewhere in credit markets, the extra yield investors demand to own corporate bonds rather than government debt is poised to widen the most this quarter since 1998, prices of leveraged loans are set to fall, emerging market debt spreads are headed for their first quarterly increase since the final three months of 2008 and asset-backed debt sales are slowing…

Says Tad Rivelle, head of fixed-income investment at Los Angeles-based TCW Group Inc.,

In the current environment, what seems to be uppermost in investors consciousness is, are we headed for a double dip?

One thing is certain. Joe Biden was telling the truth when he acknowledged last Friday that the Obama administration’s “stimulus” policy hasn’t been the success we were told it would be. And if there is another deflationary recession, or worse, Biden’s admission means that this time there will be no more blaming Bush. Obama owns it.

For those interested, Fed Chariman Ben Bernanke profetic “Helicopter” speech is here.


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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/MikeAdamson MikeAdamson

    The choice is essentially between instituting austerity measures thus ensuring a depression or trying to spend our way out if it which more than likely just punts the problem down the road. There's simply too much debt and not enough income to service it The non-financial corporate sector is actually in pretty good financial shape but why should business invest in this environment? Balancing the need to resolve the debt issue with the reality that driving even more folks into unemployment is political suicide suggests that we're looking at tougher times ahead, not better.

  • liberal_larry10

    If you really believed a depression was on the way, do you really think it is wise for you and your family to pretend that you are some kind of legitimate political radio talking head who will remain employed during the depression?

    If I were you, I would work on getting a real job, doing some real work in the world and learn a skill!

    Or, you can keep on being a propagandist and hope that hate and bitterness keep the few pennies you earn, feeding your family.

    • Bat One

      Way to pay attention, Dumbass! Too congitively disfunctional to recognize who wrote the post you're trying "veinly" to critique.

      • liberal_larry10

        It's hard to tell one bitter, blow-hard-jack-@ss from another.

        And on another note, look up the word sheerly, and get back to me.

        • Bat One

          Too bad you didn't look into that Sylvan Learning Center I suggested some months back. I know they've got a course in reading comprehension. And I told you I'd be willing to take up a collection so you could pay for the course without stiffing your mom for the rent on her basement!

          Go find a thread and a subject you actually know something about, Kid. This clearly ain't it.

          • liberal_larry10

            You simply aren't worth debating on issues of such importance.

            Your entire premise boils down to "Obama owns it, it's no longer Bush's recession"!! All you care about is mocking the black man in office.

            America's inability to be a producing country is what is hurting us. We have become too civilized compared to the rest of the industrial world. Other countries are willing to exploit their citizens, and Americans have become too accustomed to wealth and higher standards of living to accept the lifestyle that matches the income of the work that needs to be done to continue to produce like we did in the first industrial revolution. Also, farming is no longer an industry we can rely on.

            All of you racist Conservatives need the immigrant workers that are coming to work in America. Not only do we need them, we need MORE of them.

            Americans have become fat, lazy and demanding. Just look at Rob Port. Classic example of someone who want's everything, but doesn't want to work for it. He believes he is entitled to it, because he was born in America.

            We need hard workers, who learn technical skills. Not blow hard, middle class blue collar conservatives who think they can skate by in life simply by being American, and stupid.

          • Bat One

            Let's see… first you say that debating me isn't worthwhile. Fine with me.

            But then you ramble on for five more paragraphs, leading off with the race card again (Dear God, I give thanks that I am not so intellectually deprived to rely on racial innuendo to justify what comes out of my mouth!), then slamming, in order, Americans in general, farmers, American workers, conservatives (this is the US, not the UK!), and of course, your host.

            I understand that this tough for you to comprehend, but seriously, you would look a lot less foolish had you just stopped after that first sentence. Really!

          • liberal_larry10

            If you understood the difference between a debate and making statements, I wouldn't have to explain it to you. As if explaining it to you would help.

            Regardless of that, and your inability to keep your paragraphs structured correctly, your commentary is an inaccurate portrayal of my argument.

            People like you sit around and blame politicians for the economic problems we face as a nation. Not once in your story did you point to why we are facing such rough economic times. You merely focused on Obama and attempted to pin our economic woes on his policies.

            Only a half-witted naif like yourself would attempt such a thing and pretend he should be taken seriously.

            You haven't even begun to discuss the root of the reasons why our country is facing such economic hardships. You, like many simple minded Americans are too caught up in your mental disorder of playing politics like a team sport.

            Tax cuts and reducing the deficit isn't going to solve the major problems our country is facing, you complete fool!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Neiman Neiman

            Larry: I resist jumping into your conflict, I have enough of my own here; but let me make this as clear as possible – while one might legitimately and honorably disagree with Bat on various issues, there is no one else at SAB I respect as highly for his honesty, intellect, his logic, command of the facts and ability to debate any issue more civilly than Bat.

            If there is any issue under the sun that I want to debate, by doing so to gain greater understanding of the facts and reasoning, I would first go to Bat. On many occasions, especially when the Constitution is involved, I have been frustrated that Bat was not around to enter the fray.

            So, please disagree with him whenever you choose, but you would do well to offer him your respect.

          • Bat One

            Neiman, Thank you for the kind endorsement. I believe it comes down to a difference in maturity level. And of course, age. Those who demand respect rarely get it. And those who give it, get far, far more back in return.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

            Oh PUHLEEZE!

            Bat is an arrogant shitheel like all conservatives. Probably a lying tax cheat who does something marginally legal to make money.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

            This from the scumbag who pines for young boys to have sex with and for cops to be shot. Like anything you say matters to anyone anywhere.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

            This from the scumbag who yearns deeply to have sex with my 81 year old mother. Like anything you say matters to anyone anywhere.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

            Only if they're republican cops.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            This from the scumbag who attacks Christians for the sake of promoting Islam, and then attacks conservatives for having principles instead of a hard fast opposition to anything Liberal.

            Not to mention a serial narcissist who lies about his occupation and employment status.

          • thormat

            So Larry, you would prefer that the US turn into a third world country?

          • liberal_larry10

            I prefer dolts like you face the facts and stop pretending that you deserve a two story house with 3 HD TV's, 2 cars and white picket fence for being a desk jockey, or blue collar worker whose skill comprises nothing more than boxing goods you didn't make nor figure out how to sell to a customer.

            Too many moronic Americans think their slightly below normal IQ demands them a wealthy lifestyle. The truth is, Americans forgot the importance of a good education that enables them to do a job that requires education, thought, character, hard work and continued training in their area of expertise.

            Just look at the boobs posting on this site. Goon is a classic example.

            Americans think they are too good to do cheap labor, and we are too racist to allow those in our country who are willing to do the work!

            The problems our country faces is that we advanced too quickly compared to the rest of the world. When the world turned into a global economy, we screwed ourselves with our greed.

            It should have been our goal to get the other countries to catch up and live up to the rest of the civilized world. Now the rest of the world are the producers for our need to buy cheap crap.

            We stopped producing. You can thank God that during the first depression we were able to spread the availability of electricity to increase production. After that we had the production of computer technology and the micro-chip. But, after that, we have nothing more to offer. We have expended all of our industrial might and means of production.

            We have nothing more to offer or sell.

            Bat doesn't talk about the important things. Instead he focuses on trite issues like policy of a particular politician whose skin color he doesn't fancy, or who is on a different political team that he has chosen to side with.

            Bottom line? This post is nothing more than a symptom report on the state of the economy, not a diagnosis of the disease that is eating us from within.

            Bat expects the doctor to fix the disease, all while complaining that it shouldn't be the doctor meddling in these affairs in the first place.

            In short; Bat can't pick an argument and stick with it. He is just crying like your typical spoiled American brat who doesn't know who to blame his troubles on, because that is all he has been taught by those who ignorantly raised him to think in such a convoluted manner.

          • Bat One

            My goodness, what a tantrum! And STILL nothing substantive or on point.

            Look, if you want to discuss either econoomic or fiscal policy alternatives, I'll be only too happy to oblige. And if all you have to offer is more name-calling, well that says far more (or less, as it happends) about you then about me.

            But if in your jealous rage you feel the urge to attack my family again, and in particular the parents raised me to honor knowledge and respect and morality and honor itself, you would be well-advised to think twice.

            You want to insult me, that's fine. I don't take anything else you say seriously, so why not. But my family is off limits. Understand?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

            Oh Larry, how wrong you are. "I prefer dolts like you face the facts and stop pretending that you deserve a two story house with 3 HD TV's, 2 cars and white picket fence for being a desk jockey, or blue collar worker whose skill comprises nothing more than boxing goods you didn't make nor figure out how to sell to a customer. " To begin with, I have no HD TV's, have a chain link fence, wasn't a desk jockey. As a matter of fact, I finally retired at age 66, after doing 25 years as a Corrections Officer, so I have seen my share. I have been a production Foreman among other jobs. What I don't care for is some idiot like you type casting me as one you know. You are wrong on almost every count, except the two story house which is actually a bi-level, paid for, as are the two cars. Grow up.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            This from the guy who asks if I want us to live in a 3rd world country?

            Spare me.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

            You can be spared, sign out.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

            If you were raised right you wouldn't be a disgusting, subhuman conservative.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

            You openly advocate sex between men and boys, you advocate that cops should be shot, you jones for the elderly to suffer, you desire children to suffer and die… You're the only subhuman on this site Dino.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

            You openly said you want to fu*k my 81 year old mother. You have no room to talk. You're a subhuman suite.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

            Only elderly conservatives and the children of republicans.

            But I don't hope for it, it will happen on its own.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            "But I don't hope for it" Not like you hope for children to get cancer and die?

            "I still hope your children get cancer and die. Your wife too."
            DINO on May 27, 2009 at 06:01 pm

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

            No, Poof. Other than time Bama Boy sockpuppeted, I don't hope for children to get cancer.

            I just hope that children who do get cancer and don't have health insurance have republican parents who are opposed to government provided health care.

            Huge difference!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

            Nope, you did say it, and every regular of the blog at the time read it. You can lie all you want, but you said it. You're just delusional and think we can all be made to change our memories based on your insistence to the contrary of reality. Just because your conception of reality is so malleable doesn't mean anyone else's is. Unfortunately for you, you're incapable of grasping that.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            I remember you said that only when that guy was being a sock puppet. This little gotcha game the cons resort to show their at a loss. They have no argument, especially suite and Proof.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            Lickspittle Larry tries to be relevant and can't. No surprise there!
            Go back to the Kiddie Pool, little kahuna, and maybe no one will notice how your damp, yellow stained "boardies" got that way!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/2Hotel9 2Hotel9

            Are you telling us that trannitized has a new buddy? Or a new suckpuppet?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            "Liberal Larry10" is Wankertized. Really, you can't blame him for pretending to be someone else. Hannitized was such a gigantic POS, that no one would want to be him!

            I suspected that Lickspittle Larry was Hannitized for a long time. Lickspittle shows up just as Hanni the Tranni disappears. Same illogical leaps, same juvenile name, calling, particularly his penchant for calling people liars when either he doesn't understand what someone is saying or merely disagrees with them. Attempting to libel people rather than debate them. Same old same old.

            Same apostrophobia, same types of spelling errors, etc. It wasn't until recently when he signed in using his old IP address that I knew the two POS dweebs only had a fraction of a brain between them.

            It's fun to watch him deny it, too! It's like seeing a kid hand his teacher a forged note from his mom. You can tell it's a forgery, because it's signed "My Mom". Heh.

            I suppose that Larry could be Tranni's live in lover, but what are the odds that two people equally mind numbingly stupid would find each other like that?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            You had a fit of pique over someone using the same cartoon for his avatar as you did (not sockpuppeting) and he wrote "Logic fail" across his so that people would know the difference and you wished death upon his wife and kids, but other than that, your psychopathic tendencies are all under control? Got it! Huge difference!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Enigma_Cypher Enigma_Cypher

            As if they'd be any better off under "government provided (meaning tax payer funded) health care".

          • http://enigma-cypher.blogspot.com/ Enigma_Cypher

            If you were raised right you wouldn't be a deviant queer who wishes suffering on innocent children.

            And if you had any brains at all you would've realized that the "blank slate" theory is a load of BS.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

      I hope he and all the other conservatives starve, naked and homeless in the streets.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

        You too have the right to sign out.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

        Anytime you want to leave the US and move to Iran where they hang homosexuals in the public square, you just let us know and we'll take up a collection for your plane fare.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

          A collection? LOL, You wouldn't have a pot to piss in if not for your wife's parents.

  • Bat One

    Excellent comment, Mike. As I might have expected.

    I think that there is another aspect to this dilemma that is being overlooked. That is the question of whether our problems are monetary in nature or fiscal. Gethner, Romer, Summers, Bernstein and the rest are all pretty devout Keynesians, so their solution is obviously Keynesian in nature. That is, more and more deficit spending. (I've been disabused of the notion that Obama himself knows anything about economics.)

    But massive federal deficits and debt will not solve a problem which is basically monetary in nature, and will only exacerbate the problem in the long run. As Bruce Krasting points out, most of the monetary tools available to the Fed Chairman have already been tried, but they have been largely offset by the government's insistence that banks increase their capital ratios and reduce their leverage. The $2 trilion or so created by Bernanke is sitting on the sidelines. And of course, those pesky deficits and debt only make Bernanke's task going forward all the more untenable.

    No, business, the private sector, has no reason to invest in this environment. And they aren't.

  • ellinas1

    RBS an elite bank? What makes RBS an elite bank?
    This little gem, compliments of Al Gore's internet:

    Published: 6:00AM GMT 20 Jan 2009
    Royal Bank of Scotland driven to the brink of nationalisation.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/b…

    • Bat One

      E, If I had intended to say that RBS was "an elite bank" I would have said that. But, of course, I didn't.

      Its not surprising that you would find it less embarassing to ignore what is being said and focus instead on who is doing the saying. Many adolescents think that attacking the credibility of the speaker somehow absolves them of not understanding the subject matter.

      Still, if you disbelieve the quotes in my post, ignore them! I'll be neither poorer nor sleep-deprived in any event.

      • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

        Your answer deserves one thing: derision:
        These "elite financial observers," wouldn't be the same ones that drove RBS to the brink of nationalization, would they?
        Your pathetic attempt to discredit what I said, and prop up your argument is laughable at best.
        You call me an adolescent (by inference), for attacking the credibility of your source.
        If I were to use your logic, you would be one of those adolescents, and a hypocrytical one boot.
        May I remind you how many times you attemped to discredit Paul Robin Krugman because of his brief employ by ENRON?
        My,my! You take us for idiots when in reality you are the only idiot around here.

        • Bat One

          e, I would remind you that it is those of you on the Left who have made a cottage industry of disparaging everyone and anyone associated with AIG, Goldman Sachs, or the entire finance industry in general. If you can disprove the bona fides of Mr. Roberts, or any of the other INDIVIDUALS I've quoted, give it a shot. But trying to discredit a whole company, or an entire industry, now that IS childish. Just as childish as if I was to say that all liberals are as economics-illiterate as some of the commenters here. That would also be hypocritical since I've already acknowledged Mike Adamson's shrewd comments any number of times.

          As for Krugman, he was an advisor to ENRON… just as Mr. Cheney was an officer of Halliburton and George Schultz headed up Bechtel.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

            Changing the tune now?
            In your previous attacks on his credibility (Krugman's) he was working for ENRON.
            Now he was an advisor.
            In the past you tied (via insinuation) the whole ENRON debacle on Krugman's neck.
            In short, you have a short memory.
            Your pathetic attempt to discredit what I said, and prop up your argument is laughable at best.
            You call me an adolescent (by inference), for attacking the credibility of your source.
            If I were to use your logic, you would be one of those adolescents, and a hypocritical one boot.

          • Bat One

            I think most people would assume that an economist, hired by a corporation, probably isn't offering advice on human resources, product development, logo design, office space planning, or advertising. Particularly when the company is essentially a trading company dealing in only one product line. Presumably then, Krugman's advise pertained to economics and finance… exacly the area in which the fraud occured. This isn't insinuation. Is fact.

            Yes, Krugman, was an advisor, not a W-2 employee. And if you will document for me that Krugman wasn't actually paid for his professional advice, I will certainly reconsider my contempt for Krugman.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

            Still moving the goal posts and redirecting. The issue at hand is the "elite financial" observers from RBS.
            You called me an adolescent (by inference), for attacking the credibility of your source (RBS). You have no problem doing the same when it suits your needs.
            If I were to use your logic, you would be one of those adolescents, and an hypocritical one boot.

        • Bat One

          As for taking you for idiots, I believe your comments here speak far more forcefully to that question than anything I could add.

          • ellinas1

            Only an idiot would describe the RBS financial advisors/ observers as "elite financial observers."
            They didn't observe/see anything that has to do with the near demise of RBS.
            Should I add more?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

      Yeah E!! Don't you know that BatOne merely called them an elite financial observer, and not an elite bank! That's like, totalllllllly different.

      • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

        Yeah! He thinks he is smart and (he) constantly touts his horn. He is so wrong.

        • liberal_larry10

          Exactly E! RBS has burrowed $20 BILLION from the taxpayers and the bank is only worth $5B!!

          But you know, THAT is the result of some mighty powerful "elite financial observations" on their part.

          Banking experts said that there was now only a "vague chance" that RBS will not be nationalised – possibly within days. The bank has already received £20 billion in taxpayers' money but is only worth less than £5 billion.

          I am so tired of guys like Bat who always attack the credibility of the source, then when people do it to them, change the rules of debate. It's a joke.

          It's why you can't take guys like him, or anyone on this site, seriously.

          The only thing to do is counter and show these charlatans for what they are.

          Bat offerend NOTHING in the way of diagnosing the larger problems of our countries economic woes. He is merely crapping all over the doctor who he is demanding fix the problem, shortly after complaining they don't need doctors to fix the problem.

          Know what I'm sayin?

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

            I know exactly what you are saying. He constantly moves the goalposts, toot's his own horn while disparages others, and then he declares victory.
            That behaviour, I call mental illness.
            See how he avoided to answer the RBS and Krugman questions by changing the subject.
            He fancies himself as a slippery Anguilla rostrata,when he actualy is just a Myxine glutinosa comonly known as the hagfish, which exude copious quantities of a slime or mucus when captured and held, and they can tie themselves in an overhand knot.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            Ha! Hagfish……….perfect!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

            Sounds like you are saying the same thing the current administration is using for a guideline.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/goon48 goon48

      Come on now?

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tarpon tarpon

    Obwoma depression, it was planned that way. No one could be this stupid.

    Well, maybe FDR, but that is about it.

  • Son of Liberty

    The whole civilized world has rejects Keynesian fairy tale at G20, but Baran doubles down on stupid.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/TheLastBestHope TheLastBestHope

    Obama has depressed me ever since the summer of 2008 when I realized the "fix was in" and saw most of our media watchdogs happily become lap-dogs for THE ONE. The Obama depression can only be relieved by flipping the Congress this November. If We The People can do that, (and survive his lame duckness for 2 more years) then the rebuilding of America can begin in earnest.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

      Yes, just like it did from 2001 to 2007 when the debt doubled and the seeds of the financial meltdown were planted.

      I just love thinking about how much your grandkids are going to suffer for what the republicans did!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Neiman Neiman

    First: it is impossible for there ever to be an Obama Depression, it cannot happen. Why you ask? Great question, thanks for asking: Like Hoover was the devil and FDR the Progressive god, never minding FDR making the depression worse and it was not really Hoover's fault, that is the defining truth that emerged from that era. Likewise, another recession/depression will be the fault of the Prince of Darkness – George W. Bush and no matter how bad things get or for how long, the new FDR – Lord Obama will forever be the Progressive god that saved us. Get used to it!

    Solution: An Amendment to the Constitution demanding no more deficit spending, except in the case of a Congressional declaration of war for national defense, with a decades long clear plan to retire all debt until our budget is balanced, and a demand for balanced budgets forever.

    • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com goon48

      I see what your saying Neiman when ever the going gets tough just blame Bush and Chenney. I suppose we will hear the Liberal Parrots claim this pretty soon.

  • Bat One

    And still nothing substantive or on point from either troll to authoritatively dispute the original post. Looks like, once again, Mike Adamson is the only liberal capable of a reasoned, intelligent, fact-based discussion of the issue.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

      So stupid, you had to post it twice.

      • jimmypop

        ok, that was funny.

      • Bat One

        Had to make sure you would notice, Kid. Hitting you upside the head, rhetorically at least, has to be done a number of times just to ensure that you're paying attention.

        As for "stupid," I'll stand by my observation. You have yet to offer anything substantive to the subject of the original post. If you were knowledgeable enough to actually understand what was being talked about, then you'd presumably have a different explantion to offer for the M3 and institutional money market aggregrate contraction, or the increasing yield spreads and default rates. And you'd offer a cogent alternative to Bernanke's Helicopter speech and a series of Keynesian policy alternatives to the monetary options Bernanke discussed.

        Of course Biden already admitted the Obama administration's economic policy hasn't been much of a success, so the entire "let's do more of the same thing" argument I'd expect fom those on the Left (if you understood the subject matter in the first place) isn't gonna fly in any case.

        If all you've got is ad hominem</> and dueling dictionary references, do us both a favor and stop bothering.

        • liberal_larry10

          Bat, you are missing the point!

          And as I said before, "debating" with you is a waste of time and energy, because all you are doing is discussing the symptoms of a possible double dip recession (a disease), without talking about the systemic cause of the disease.

          In short; You are picking on the doctor you claim you don't want meddling with your health, yet you are relying on that doctor to relieve the symptoms of the disease. You peck at his shins, like a chicken pecking at a mans boots, for not stopping the spread of the disease.

          You Tea Party nuts say you don't want big government solving our problems. But here you are, begging that the government do something different to fix the potential double-dip recession.

          The fact of the matter is all you are doing is quibbling over how Obama should stop the pain of the disease. You are not discussing the cause of the disease. You are just crying that your man isn't in power to tinker with our failing economy.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MikeAdamson MikeAdamson

      Do I win a prize? And speaking of reasoned, intelligent, fact based discussions, where is r108? I hope I didn't miss a brouhaha.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

      That's because Adamson is a fake liberal without a nutbag.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Beautiful_Loser Beautiful_Loser

    Your entire premise boils down to "Obama owns it, it's no longer Bush's recession"!! All you care about is mocking the black man in office.
    ———————————————–

    If the words "bush and black" were stricken from the liberal vocabulary, every argument wouldn't have the proverbial 2 sides ; )

    • Bat One

      It comes down too this: If all they've got is "Bush", "Black", and bluster, then everything they say will be vapid, vacuous, and vile.

      • liberal_larry10

        Is that all this post is; a feeble attempt to rescue Bush's reputation?

        What a surprise!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Beautiful_Loser Beautiful_Loser

          Rather than focusing on President Bush, after he has left office, it seems to me that Obama supporters should concentrate on redeeming Barack, prior to him leaving office.

          • liberal_larry10

            Let's be clear that it is Bat, along with yourself, who is focusing the blame on Presidents.

            Is it your contention that Presidents are largely responsible for how the US economy thrives or suffers?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

            You are the one focusing on the President to blame.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            That's flat out BS. Where have I done that, as it relates to our current state of affairs?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

      Beautiful_Loser,

      That is Bat_One's conclusion, not mine!

      And if there is another deflationary recession, or worse, Biden’s admission means that this time there will be no more blaming Bush. Obama owns it.

      Don't blame me for repeating his conclusion. This entire thread is little more than an apology for Bush!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Beautiful_Loser Beautiful_Loser

        So are you saying that, Obama isn't experienced/competent enough to save America and we are all doomed because of BOTH BUSH AND OBAMA?

  • Kevin

    Arguing aside, we're in for a world of hurt nationally. Our economy is going to tank no question. Just a matter of when. The spending frenzy is just going to make it much more painful when the cards do fall. America would have been much better off letting GM and Chrysler go under and the health care reform is asinine.
    The loss of manufacturing jobs and outsourcing can all be laid at the union's door step. Why would anyone keep their business here and have to deal with that? I'm union so I deserve undue high wages, cadillac health plan and an unfunded pension I did not contribute towards? Madness.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

    I'm not saying that at all.

    I blame neither for the situation we are in right now. Certainly things happen on the watch of a president. Certainly a president can stimulate an economy temporarily, or help investment that may or may not work out in the long run. But it is not the job of the POTUS to re-architecht the global economic system every four years.

    The problem we saw when Bush was in office was something politicians could have, and did, influence positively and negatively. But it was not the root cause of the problem.

    Again, our problems stem from larger, more systemic issues.

    You morons are focused on the blame game, not the real issues or the matter of solving them. You just want to rescue Bush, and blame Obama.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Beautiful_Loser Beautiful_Loser

      I am not a moron.
      and, I highly doubt George Bush needs me to rescue him. He survived many years leading this country when it was in peril, so the likes of me is not going to influence the history books.

      You said….Again, our problems stem from larger, more systemic issues.

      Explain that to me please. I'm trying to understand.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

        If you are playing the blame game of blaming our economic problems on Bush or Obama, you are a moron. Obama has been in office just over 2 years. Do you really think the problems we are facing now is the result of anything he has done? Or, do you believe his polices are to blame for the economic situation we are in today?

        Scroll up for a cursory glance at the argument I made, as to the larger systemic issues we are facing today, as a country.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

          "Obama has been in office just over 2 years" ROTFLMAO
          Let me see…January of 2009 to June of 2010. Yep! That's over two years…to the mentally deranged!

          Math (or thinking) never was your strong suit, was it Lickspittle?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/RipVanBullwinkl RipVanBullwinkl

            Not his fault, when ever "The Count" comes on Sesame Street his mom makes him take a nap!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            Whenever she plays "one of these things is not like the others" with him, she hands him pictures of three normal kids and a mirror.

          • RipVanBullwinkl

            And yet he still licks the windows on the short bus.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            He's improving! Just a few weeks ago, he was still licking the floors!

          • RipVanBullwinkl

            Mommy knows best, or is it mommy dearest? I confuse those!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            And he's finally stopped chewing the paint chips, too!

          • RipVanBullwinkl

            I wouldn't jump to that conclusion, lead based paints were outlawed in the late '70's or early 80's, due to forcive habit he's probably still gnawing on latex paint chips.( picture when Beldar returned to his home planet and handed the leader "chewing gum" in the "Coneheads" movie)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            I believe he said he was born in the late sixties. And he just stopped chewing the paint chips last month…

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

          There are twelve months in a year, Lickspittle. Twenty four in two years. Why is it that everyone thinks your political analysis is every bit as accurate and convincing as your math?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

          Obama is in charge right now of the executive branch which covers the banking and all the other agencies. NOT ARGUABLE.

          The Democratic Party has veto-proof control of both houses of congress. NOT ARGUABLE.

          The policies of the Obama administration and the Democratic Party are currently what this country is run by. NOT ARGUABLE.

          The economic policies of the Obama administration and the Democratic Party are currently being found to not only be lacking, but entirely counterproductive, by the Asian and European government and financial industry leaders. NOT ARGUABLE.

          You're attempting to argue against actual factual things, as if you can simply make them go away or be unimportant by fiat.

          You're an idiot larry.

          • liberal_larry10

            Obama is in charge right now of the executive branch which covers the banking and all the other agencies. NOT ARGUABLE.

            Not arguable, but not relevant either. Obama is not responsible for the shape of the American economic system of the last 100 years.

            Labor, agriculture, small businesses, large corporations, financial markets, the Federal Reserve System, and government all interact in complex ways to make America's economic system work.

            The government may regulate and interfere with how small business are sometimes taxed and held responsible to fairly employ it's citizens, but at the end of the day, it's not the sitting president that determines the health of our economic well being.

            The Democratic Party has veto-proof control of both houses of congress. NOT ARGUABLE

            Irrelevant!

            The policies of the Obama administration and the Democratic Party are currently what this country is run by. NOT ARGUABLE.

            Yes, but which polices was it that he created that are impacting our systemic economic failures? Relevant, but only in the capacity of how is he able to slow or stop the economic free fall started under the Bush presidency.

            So to sum it up, again, it's not that the president is responsible for our economic health, but just the temporary stimulation of it or stabilization of it. That's all the government has ever been responsible for in the American economic system.

            The economic policies of the Obama administration and the Democratic Party are currently being found to not only be lacking, but entirely counterproductive, by the Asian and European government and financial industry leaders. NOT ARGUABLE.

            Very arguable! But not with a mutt such as yourself. You can barley be honest about your current state of employment. Ha!

            You are a total idiot, Suite!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Randy_G Randy_G

            Jan. 2007 Larry Larue10, Pelosi and your twin brother Harry take over. The rest is history.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            Your are neither coherent, or relevant. What?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Randy_G Randy_G

            What do you know about relevancy?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            Enough to know that neither of you two are!

            I don't think I have ever seen you write anything that required more than a quip, or smart remark.

            You offer nothing.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Randy_G Randy_G

            You have too much trouble understanding anyone but Magoo, your existence here is for only one reason, our entertainment.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            Bizarre cartoon references is about your speed.

            Unfortunately for you, nobody really debates you, because you offer nothing but small minded drivel.

            You were saying?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Randy_G Randy_G

            Yea we all know din is a bizarre cartoon character, thanks for agreeing.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

            So you attempt to use irrelevance and idiocy to argue against concrete fact. Europe and Asia are castigating Obama and the Democratic Party for their economic policy, they are in charge, their policy is in force… Not one thing I said was wrong, or irrelevant. Next, I'll state that the sky is blue and water wet and you will attempt argument with that.

            You sound familiar, don't you? Like a certain whiz-soaked swimsuit wearing narcissist we all know, who argues that textbook definitions of words are wrong and that he is right.

            Hmmmm…

            You are soooooo pathetically easy to see through.

            Still butthurt over the truth of the utter pointlessness of your sales career?

            Sucks to be you Hanni.

        • Beautiful_Loser

          The Democrats have had a majority / control of both houses of Congress since Nov. 2006.
          Almost 4 years.
          Yes, I think that the policies of Obama and the democrats have contributed to the "economic situation".

          and, IMO, you repeatedly referring to me as a moron, is the same as No-Guts-No Glory Obama repeatedly voting present.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            "Almost 4 years" Or just over six with Larry Math!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

            Good one!

          • http://randysroundtable.blogspot.com/ Randy_G

            So according to Larry Math Bush was President for what, 18 years?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            To garner as much blame as the Whiner-in-Chief is giving him, I'd say yeah!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

            Here's a stupid conservative who doesn't understand how elections work.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MikeAdamson MikeAdamson

      Our leaders always get too much credit for the good times and too much blame for the bad. That said, political blogs are always going to feature political dialogue and when liberals are posting on conservative sites and vice versa then it's hard to escape the "my guy vs. your guy" syndrome.

      I'll also add that "wealth" created by and built upon asset bubbles is fleeting wealth indeed.

      • Bat One

        Mike, No argument with anything you've said. Still, when political leaders institute specific policies, for specific reasons, and with specific, stated goals to be attained via those policies, then people would be remiss not to hold those leaders to account for the results, good or bad, of their policies. The $862 billion Obama "stimulus" program has not done what what the Obama administration and the Democrats told us it would do when they passed it into law without so much as reading the bill. That point isn't arguable, since Joe Biden has said as much, despite the fact that it was his chief economic advisor, Jared BErnstein, who co-authored "The Jobs Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvesment Act" report, along with Christina Romer, head of the Council of Economic Advisors.

        Furthermore, the fiscal "stimulus" may well have actually exacerbated what is essentially a monetary problem. Our children and grandchildren are left with the bill for a "solution" which has only made things worse all around.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

        What a well-reasoned, balanced, coompletely pussified post, Mikey! You're simply a credit to the liberal cause!

        Now go grow a PAIR.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

          The $862 billion Obama "stimulus" program has not done what what the Obama administration and the Democrats told us it would do when they passed it into law …

          It has not done ALL it was supposed to do. It stopped the economic free fall that Bush left us with, and something had to be done. It might not have been the perfect solution, and it might have been rushed through, but we certainty will never be able to have an honest debate with someone like you what would have happened if they let the economy crash.

          And we know that was your hope!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

            We weren't in a freefall, your obsession with talking points aside, Hannah. The CBO showed our recovery would be about a year earlier if the congress took no action. It showed that the recovery would be delayed, possibly retarded, and even maybe stymied if they began stimulus spending. The stats since they did that spending have borne out that the CBO was right, we're worse off with it.

            You're still busy arguing against concrete fact as if your gigantic ego makes reality and not that reality is something external to it which it must accept.

            There's only one SA poster who has that level of narcissistic delusion, Hannitized. The jerkoff who infamously tried to argue the definition and etymology of the word camp.

          • liberal_larry10

            I have no idea what you are rambling about! You must be doing the same thing to me you do to Nieman? Or you are emailing Proof to share your weird obsession with a man.

            But if you want to talk about someone whom argues definitions; I submit Bat_One and his contention that the word Sheerly in Marrium Websters Dictonary and Dictonary.com among several others is incorrect.

          • Bat One

            Let's see here… the person who said this just a few hours ago,

            If you are playing the blame game of blaming our economic problems on Bush or Obama, you are a moron.

            …has now posted this comment,

            It stopped the economic free fall that Bush left us with, and something had to be done.

            Now, that's a major league disconnect no matter which dictionary you're using or how "veinly" you try deny it.

          • liberal_larry10

            BO, you didn't comprehend what I wrote. Quite pretending you have the capacity!

            I said anyone blaming a politician for the economic state we are in, currently, is a moron. I admitted that presidents can stimulate and stabilize an economy, but a single or double term president in his first year is not responsible, nor is required, to re-invent our economic system.

            The current situation we are in is a systemic failure of our ability to produce, our national greed and our inability to see the forrest through the trees! We cared only about America and let the rest of the world deal for themselves. That resulted in a massive delta between civilized countries.

            Other countries are profiting from our desire to buy things, because we became a nation of greed and phony wealth.

            Like I said, Bat_One didn't come close to discussing the real issues. He's still stuck at finger pointing.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Proof_Positive Proof_Positive

            Quite (sic) pretending you have the capacity!

            This from a dolt who thinks that seventeen months is just over two years!

          • Bat One

            > It stopped the economic free fall that Bush left us with, and something had to be done.

            I wonder if you can detail specifically which portions of Obama's ARRA ("stimulus") plan have "stopped the economic freefall" as you've stated.

            And which "economic freefall" are you referring to, anyway? The recession that the Left says began in Q4 of 2007? The so called "credit crisis" that hit in October of 2008? They are, after all, separate events. Which expenditures from that $862 billion of "stimulus" money stopped either event, and how?

            I'm inclined to think that the TARP expenditures and the Fed's unusual securities purchases and zero interest rates had almost everything to do with slowing the "credit crisis" and forstalling the recession. Certainly more than anything done via ARRA. But I'm willing to look at your alternative if you have something more substantive and authoritative with which to defend and buttress your contention.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

    Jesus H Christ, even Jimmy Carter wasn't that damned shallow.

    I told you he'd make Carter look like Reagan before this was done and over.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AKAWOOF AKAWOOF

    Reagan wound up dazed , deceived, demented and calling for Mommy.
    That ain't the devil O.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ORIGINAL_DINO ORIGINAL_DINO

    Remember the "Irish Miracle"? The low tax, corporate-ass-sucking economy that was the envy of the world?

    LOL, well, they CRASHED HARD. And they responded with the same fiscal austerity that the subhuman garbage conservatives are pushing. Wanna see how it's turning out for the Irish?

    In Ireland, a Picture of the High Cost of Austerity http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/business/global…

    DUBLIN — As Europe’s major economies focus on belt-tightening, they are following the path of Ireland. But the once thriving nation is struggling, with no sign of a rapid turnaround in sight.

    Nearly two years ago, an economic collapse forced Ireland to cut public spending and raise taxes, the type of austerity measures that financial markets are now pressing on most advanced industrial nations.

    Rather than being rewarded for its actions, though, Ireland is being penalized. Its downturn has certainly been sharper than if the government had spent more to keep people working. Lacking stimulus money, the Irish economy shrank 7.1 percent last year and remains in recession.

    And just think. They RAISED taxes and cut spending. Here they want to CUT taxes and cut spending. Should be a f*cking bloodbath.

    Can't wait to see all the republican families going hungry, living in parks. I certainly hope they don't get desperate, what with all those guns they own. LOL

    No amount of suffering is enough for this disgusting white trash culture. But we're about to see it receive TONS.

    Should be fun to watch as the next generation turns the world socialist or burns the motherf*cker to the GROUND.

    • Bat One

      Obviously (to everyone but the NYT) Ireland ought to have CUT taxes and spending. Its an article of faith to those on the Left that government should have all the money that those in power want.

      Incidentally, by my calculations the Irish governments tax receipts increased at an average of 7.5% per year from 2000 to 2009. Revenue wasn't the problem… spending was.

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