Say Anything Blog

As I’ve said in the other thread, when are the kidnappers going to be put in jail?

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

And how many years will it take “for the children” to be rightfully returned to their parents!!  This is a disgrace, and invasion of privacy and civil rights violations.

Communism is evil

I’ll be the first person to say that the state officials are complete idiots if they didn’t make sure their evidence would survive an appeals court.  Shame on them.  BUT, it doesn’t negate the fact -that Pilgrim & Whistler don’t appear to care about in their tunnel vision blogging - that now that evidence of abuse has been found, should it be ignored?

As for not treating the sect as “an individual household”, what else could they do?  No one would say who their parents were, the authorities had not choice but to try to establish the who the “families are” by DNA testing and to figure out who got these underage girls pregnant.  Again, I remain patient.  What’s the next court, Texas supreme court?  I’m willing to let them look at it.  But the state will probably have to put all the kids back, at which time the sect will quietly try to get them out of state to other compounds.

I’m glad the “good guys” won this time, I surely hope some people at Child Protection Services (maybe we can change the name to something more appropriate) lose there jobs.  Many good homes were broken up and many children will be scared for quite some time. 

What a travesty!

BUT, it doesn’t negate the fact -that Pilgrim & Whistler don’t appear to care about in their tunnel vision blogging - that now that evidence of abuse has been found, should it be ignored?

For many decades, there is a precedent that evidence found ILLEGALLY cannot be used in court.  Nor should it be used by CPS.  “For the sake of the Children” is not an excuse to allow the government to wield their sword without due process and cause.  There may indeed be cases of abuse in that compound, but upholding the rights of ALL parents is far more important than suspected abuse of a few children.  Harsh reality, I know.

Patriot:

You still don’t get it.

It’s not tunnel vision. It’s a firm belief in the Constitution. I’ve stuck to the same opinion from the outset - the raid was based on faulty information and as such much of what they gathered can’t be used. And that - as I said above - if there are cases of abuse EACH INDIVIDUAL ONE needs to be investigated.

What is so hard for you to understand about all that?

Stand by and let those people’s rights get crushed and it is a very short step to yours. And that’s not drama. That’s a fact.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Right Pil. 

Patriot IF (and there probably was) there was abuse going on in there then you should be irate over this that the perpetrators are going to probably get off scot free because of this incompetence.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

This ruling has pissed off the “officials” and caseworkers no end. And they will take out that anger on the children they have already arrested and thrown into the Juvenile Detention System of Texas. It will take years, and millions of dollars from taxpayers, to get these kids out from under the thumbs of socialworkers and the Juvenile Courts.

All over a fake tipoff.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Pilgrim, lets wait until the next court hearing.

Again, the CPS people in Texas are idiots if they didn’t cross their “t"s and dot their “i"s before they went in there.

Now I’m going to have to go seek out my own factual information because you and Whistler are going to subject this blog to another 5-10 posts per week everytime someone prints something that crucifies CPS (i.e. that favors your opinion).  At least this last post was based on the factual court opinion, the others haven’t been and I got tired of the onesidedness so I went straight to the Texas newspapers and other sources to try to find out the facts.

Where did we get anything wrong?  I think this court opinion validates our opinion does it not?

Again, the CPS people in Texas are idiots if they didn’t cross their “t"s and dot their “i"s before they went in there.

Isn’t that what the appellate court ruled?

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

It will take years, and millions of dollars from taxpayers, to get these kids out from under the thumbs of socialworkers and the Juvenile Courts.

I sure hope not.  Being ripped from your family even for one night constitutes irreparable harm in my eyes.  Now that the court has ruled there was no cause any delay is as unconscionable as the original seizure.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

2hotel9:  You called this one right from the get-go. The appelate court’s comment that, “there is no evidence of abuse, nor was there any”, makes this a chilling case of beaurocracy run amok!

Like Whistler, I hope you are wrong about the time-frame.

I see this making it to the Texas Supreme Court in short order.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

If there’s a criminal among a group of people, you can’t punish the entire group. That kind of thinking leads to 6 million Jews getting gassed.

The Bill of Rights applies to each individual citizen. If the state can’t determine which of its individual citizens has committed a crime, it’s the state’s problem.

This gives one hope for the Constitution and along with the stripping of all amnesty measures from the Iraq Supplemental Bill, it’s been a good day.

Patriot, why not start your search with this google sweep?

PP, it is simply a repeat of history, I have personal experience with this crap in 3 states. And witnessed the experiences of quite a few others.

As Pil has clearly stated, several times, trampling the Constitutional Rights of citizens upon a mere anonymous tip is wrong. Period.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Sorry! Damned google is not cooperating, the bastiches!

Google “Texas Juvenile System”, take a right at the light, and keep on truckin’ till night.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Thanks for the heads up, ews. Now if we can take a fire ax to the Farm Subsidies Bill we can make some real progress.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

What evidence of abuse?  Any broken bones?  Forced drug abuse?  Girls held down by their mothers so the mother’s boyfriend can rape her?  Starvation?
Torture?  I don’t see any so far.  To say that there might be some evidence of abuse and that makes this raid OK flies in the face of Liberals’ adherence to “probable cause”.  In this case, raids to random homes could be made based on baseless anonymous calls and maybe some evidence of illegal drug use might be found, or prostitution or underaged drinking, or anything!

Communism is evil

There are 3 things NOBODY is considering.  In the state of Texas, a person can be married at the age of 14 with one parent’s consent.  Once married, they are no longer under age.  There was in fact NO excuse for CPS to even enter the compound in the first place.  Rape is a criminal offense not a CPS actionable occurence.  Religous freedoms have been trampled by kidnapping over 400 children, and the entire organization should be shut down.  By the time the lawsuits are completed, I expect the families of the kidnapped children will have collected over 1 billion dollars in damages.

William, I agree and asked this question about age of consent a few weeks ago.
Not many picked up on it.  I hope they shut down the corrupt and power hungry “CPS” and return complete and proper parental rights, civil rights and the US constitution.

Communism is evil

William Drygen said:

In the state of Texas, a person can be married at the age of 14 with one parent’s consent.  Once married, they are no longer under age.  There was in fact NO excuse for CPS to even enter the compound in the first place. 

I hadn’t considered that the laws from stste to state concerning the marriage of minors varies, but if that is a fact then their case is on even shakier ground.

And I agree with him on this point: When all is said and done someone will be a lot richer - and it won’t be the state of Texas.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

In this case, raids to random homes could be made based on baseless anonymous calls and maybe some evidence of illegal drug use might be found, or prostitution or underaged drinking, or anything!

Yeah, chief, this happens all the time especially with drugs and occassionally an innocent person gets killed.

One other thing, contrary to public opinion, there was no legitimate legal wrong found with the Davidians either.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

And I agree with him on this point: When all is said and done someone will be a lot richer - and it won’t be the state of Texas.

What kind of deterrent is it to stick the taxpayers with the bill.  The responsible parties that carried this out should be charged criminally.  Only then will people be safe in their own homes.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

It’s not a deterent, but I tell you what.. if me and 400 of my closest friends were raided and had our children ripped away and it turned out it was a GROSS misconduct on behalf of the authorities, I would sue the pants off those A-holes as well.  Maybe the people of Texas should reconsider who they are putting in charge of such agencies…

I would sue the pants off those A-holes as well.

I would too.  Unfortunately that seems to be all we can do nowdays.  All I’m saying is that the next government a-hole doesn’t learn a thing from it.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Maybe the people of Texas should reconsider who they are putting in charge of such agencies…

I, a Texan, don’t know how to do that.  Perhaps you can tell me how you control the bureaucrats where you live.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

There is something even I forgot to consider.  If it is “customary and normal” within their religion to marry at an earlier age than 14, I am not sure that state law can be upheld.  Constitutional guarantees of religious freedom supercede state law regardless of what others personally think of that religion or its practices.  I personally think arranged marriages are abhorrent even though it is practiced extensively in other cultures.  In India for example, it is not unusual for a 9 year old girl to be married off to a 25 to 30 year old man who has “made his mark” in the world.  I will defend with my dying breath however their right to practice their religion in whatever way they think is correct.

I think that society has a right to decide what the proper age of consent is.  After all if a religion practiced live baby sacrifices we wouldn’t have to accept it. 

On the other hand we’d have to prove probably cause that said religious practitioner actually committed the act before we could take legal actions.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

We practice baby killings every day.  In fact, a million a year.  This entire exercise in heavy handed CPS is way over the line.  How to get rid of them?  Elect people who promise to zero out that agency!

Communism is evil

And now…...How will they “in-shoot the bullet”?

When I first heard the news of the raid, I was shocked and afraid of another Waco.  I am very cognizant of the evil that can be done to minors, and recently there was a huge Texas scandal involving sexual abuse of children in State institutions.  But it looks like the CPS takes its one responsibility,  The protection of children, beyond Reasonableness.  They keep being quoted as saying they are shocked at the appellate court’s decision.  It doesn’t appear they were interested in building an air tight case.  Maybe they are used to taking children away from parents who are strung out or don’t have the money or inclination to fight the system?  Possessing the children usually gives them great leverage I’ll bet?

Regardless of anything we think or post here, I would like to see one of the married 14 to 16 year old females, properly coached by her attorney, talking to a judge.

“I was kidnapped, forcibly removed from my family, and falsely imprisoned by members of CPS and the sheriff’s office.  I demand that criminal charges be brought against the perpetrators immediately and that I be allowed to return to my family.”

When CPS cries “We were protecting you from exploitation”, her answer should be “I am not a child.  I am a married woman.”  CPS has a serious problem.  When this hits the federal court, and it will, CPS is going to loose big time.

I would like to see one of the married 14 to 16 year old females, properly coached by her attorney, talking to a judge.

Oh that’s a wonderful idea.  As they found out when they imprisoned all those families on false abuse charges, it’s extremely easy to use suggestions to create memories in children of abuse events that never happened.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

Oops I meant to say imprisoned all those parents on false abuse charges

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

I can see how you could get that mixed up DD, after all the CPS did .

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

At least the tots weren’t toasted like Janet Reno did in Waco.

No Free Lunch

Janet had to burn the kids in order to save them.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Constitutional guarantees of religious freedom supercede state law regardless of what others personally think of that religion or its practices.

(Buzzer!) Eeeeh. Wrong.

The Constitution gives protection from a federal religion or from federal endorcement or persecution of A. Specific. Religion.

Even if the 14th Amendment makes that applicable for the states, that doesn’t mean religion trumps law. For example:

Satanists often sacrifice animals. They are not granted immunity from liability from lawsuit (by the pet’s owners) because of their religion.

Polygamy is a part of this religion. The state is not required to acknowledge that.

Many religions have special conditions for the slaughter of their animals. These conditions still have to apply with health standards.

The habib is an Islamin dress. We can, and should, demand women remove it for their driver’s license/photo id.

It’s all political bullshit. Liberals (and Robert108) lie and spin and twist and obscure and distract and cheat to protect their guys and hurt the opposing team. It’s like wrestling. They distract the ref while their team mate hits you with a chair. There’s no rule they won’t break, no law they won’t skirt, no crime they won’t forgive as long as they can win.

Kenny, good corrections.  William, yes, they should contend that they are adults and not children.  The CPS, like many little “good ideas” has grown like a reptile without bounds and now needs to be eliminated. 
This case also reminds me of the Duke University case.

Communism is evil

Interesting points by Mr. Dryden.  Difficulties I have with the concept:

1.  The “marry at 14” rule protects the husband from prosecution for marrying his first wife legally.  It does not protect him from taking wives #2, 3, 4, and so on, because Texas law does not recognize polygamy.  So if it’s truly a polygamous society, there probably is clear statutory rape going on.

2.  There are certain limits on the right of religions to practice.  For example, if I started a group (let’s call it “NARAL”) that believed that infant sacrifice was a necessary atonement for sin, I don’t believe that the men in blue would hesitate to strap me in Old Sparky (nor should they hesitate!).  The 1st Amendment protects belief clearly, but practice can be constrained by laws against immoral acts if the government can demonstrate a clear public need for that law.

But directly to the point, shame on the police here for apparently completely mishandling a case where actionable evidence should have been abundant.  Hopefully someone educates DocDave and myself on how we can keep bureaucrats in line—we could start by sending notes to the county suggesting that those involved could be relieved of duty for errors so egregious.

Bike.  Here is a quote from another source.

The state conceded this week that at least 15 of the 31 mothers being held in foster care as minors were actually adults; one is 27.

Bike, I am not so sure that if a person has sexual intercourse with someone aged 27 and is married that they (or he?) would automatically be charged with rape.
If the person were to be under aged 18, then maybe, depending on the state.
In that case, each and every incidence of sexual intercourse going on in certain places would be rape.  Nem.  This is a case, in my opinion of selective enforcement.

Communism is evil

Texas should have asked Vermont about their 1984 raid on a church group when they swooped in and kidnapped over 100 children them. The judge quickly ordered them to return the kids. The State Attonery said if he had known they would have had to go in front of that judge he would have called off the raid to get another judge. The 1984 Raid On Island Pond, Vermont Cult. You can read some of it here
http://upstreamzine.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/child-protective-services-raid-on-flds-similiar-to-1984-raid-on-island-pond-vermont-cult/

this also reminds me of the goverment going in and stealing native americans from their families and adopting them out.

After all these raids you think someone would say. “Wait a minute people lets do this right.” but they dont. In the vermont 84 raid it cost the state millions, i belive this raid is going to cost Texas at least a billion. From what i have read they have spent 30 million so far. Also what about the canadian girl they are holding and refuse to let talk with her goverment, a lawyer or her family. Texas was already in trouble for doing that to other canadian citizens.