Say Anything Blog

He’s always had his money given to him and always will! He knows nothing about having to make ends meet!

“How many more billions of dollars do we have to give you, Mr. Republican?”

Ironically, we the taxpayers have been saying the same thing to Kennedy for far too many years.  By asking the question, both the democrats and the taxpayers claim to be the rightful owners of the monies.  The fact the taxpayers earned it hasn’t quieted the democrats at all. The uneasiness felt at the sight of others prosperity and excellence seems to provide the impetus to confiscate the perceived means of happiness and provide it to the envious. But what sort of sickness favors envy in another?  Kennedy has no less right to be elected than any other citizen, so why the need to endear himself to the envious?  Could it be that within there is a desire to usurp rather than to serve?  Does his agenda require the loyalty only self-interest can afford?  It would sure seem so.

“Envy, to which th’ ignoble mind’s a slave,
Is emulation in the learn’d or brave.”

SC Senator Jim DeMint was interviewed on Fox this evening, and according to DeMint, the “Big Dig” money wasn’t specifically appropriated… it was earmarked.

It is useless liberal hypocrites like Kennedy who make the idea of mandatory term limits so appealing.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

It is such an honor to be writting with all you super rich people. This administration has done almost nothing in 6 years to help anyone with a taxable income of less than $200,000 a year.

Actually, JamestownGuy, the “tax cuts for the rich” thing is baloney.

And just to back that up with some data, consider that the top income earners in America are paying more in income taxes than at any other time in decades and the bottom income taxpayers are paying less than they did during the Clinton administration.

Also consider that pretty much everyone making $40,000 or less pays pretty much no income tax.  Some pay a negative income tax, meaning that with an earned income credit many of them actually get a subsidy from the government.  Given that reality, how exactly can you give a tax cut to the “poor?”

The poor aren’t paying any income taxes anyway.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

jamestown9guy,

Your sarcasm is childish, inappropriate, and boring.

If you are making less than $200,000 per year it’s nobody’s fault but your own.  Your financial well-being is your own responsibility, not the federal government.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Hey Bat One, I confess to sarcasm in my remarks but I did bring out the same attacks that this administration tries when anyone speaks out. They attack just the way you have and this is my main point that you made for me.

The majority of the people don’t have a taxable income of $200,000 a year but they seldom are listened to.By the way, the key word here is “taxable”.

And by the way Rob, I don’t know here you are getting your information but a person making around $40,000, and there are a lot of them, do in fact pay taxes.

You fellows don’t seem to be in the real world just like this “Spoiled Rich Kid” President.

And by the way Rob, I don’t know here you are getting your information but a person making around $40,000, and there are a lot of them, do in fact pay taxes.

Most people making $40,000 or less don’t pay any federal income taxes.  They do pay sales taxes and property taxes and maybe state income taxes, but they hardly pay anything in federal income taxes.

I think maybe you need to check your facts.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

jamestown9guy,

If you honestly consider my comments, or those of Rob, to be “attacks,” then your language and communication skills are as deficient as your logic and rationalization capabilities.

Perhaps, instead of slamming the Bush administration and Republicans in general for what you believe they ought to have done for you and didn’t, you could offer some public policy suggestions of your own.  Such as what you think should be done, and why.  That way you’d be entering the discussion at the same higher level as the rest of us.

Finally, since income, taxable or not, is clearly important to you, let me also suggest that you find a career path that requires only minimal communication skills, a limited but serviceable vocabulary, and generally modest cognitive ability.  As Harry Callahan once remarked, “A man’s got know his limitations.”

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

This administration has done almost nothing in 6 years to help anyone with a taxable income of less than $200,000 a year.

Wrong. I fall into this category and confess a much reduced tax burden directly because of the Bush tax cuts.

By the way, what has the democrats done?  Kennedy is bemoaning the fact that the republicans want to provide tax cuts for small businesses.  You probably didn’t know this, being a liberal and all, but not all small business owners make over 200,000 per year.  That means the republican tax cuts Kennedy laments will affect some under this threshold.

Oh, and Rob is absolutely correct in his assertion that those who make under 40k don’t pay much if any taxes once the tax credits are taken.

I love it. Bat One acts like he has some major insecurities issues evidenced by his attempts to degrade me and promote his superior intellect.

It doesn’t bother me, in fact I enjoy it. But the facts are that this administration has done more harm worldwide, and has spent more money than any administration in most of our lifetimes.

For starters I would have not gone into Iraq. Even Dad was smart enough not to do that. The second thing is, I would not have given tax breaks to the top 2%. There are a lot more I can give you but these two are major. Especially the first one.

Jamestownguy, I don’t think anyone in this thread has insulted you.  Bat responded to the sarcasm of your initial comment by saying that it was childish and boring.  You may not like that comment, but it’s hardly an insult, especially in reply to your snarky entrance into this conversation.

As for “tax breaks for the top 2%,” again look at my figures which show top income brackets paying more in taxes than any time in the past decades, as well as lower income taxes paying less.

Yes, Bush cut tax rates for “the rich.” That’s only because the rich pay way more in taxes than you.  And “the rich” are actually paying more in taxes now because of increased economic activity on their part.

I think you maybe need to put down the left wing talking points and pick up some facts.  Not saying you have to agree with me, but it’s hard to debate this stuff when you don’t know the facts.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

jamestown9guy,

I’m not sure why you chose to direct your attention at me, when it’s pretty obvious that just about everyone else writing here is your intellectual superior.  Of course, it’s usually the smallest guy in the bar that starts the fight.  so, perhaps the pathologies are related.

In any event, I asked you to consider offering some policy suggestions as to what you WOULD do, and as expected, you come back to relate what you would not have done.  Pitiful!

Fact is, if you can’t make even that most basic distinction you just ain’t gonna have a lot of folks taking anything else you say very seriously.  Which is probably just as well.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Rob. Thank you for your remarks about how I have communicated so far and I really don’t disagree with you. It is true I did in fact take cheap shots and I understand that and I think I also understand that it would be impossible to convince you are even most of the people on this link as to my ideas.

I have been a registered Republican for 40 years. Have managed political campaigns and been employed as a strategist since 1970, retired now, but my thinking changed with this administration and I was trained by the people who got Ronnie elected. Also learned most of the dirty tricks of politics.

Bat One...Bat One...I have spent 40 years playing with professionals and I certainly can’t be intimated by an amateur such as you.

You think you are cute when you ask me to fix the mess that you created. I didn’t cause the train wreck so now you want me to fix your mess?

So you admit you don’t have anything to add to the discussion.

That’s for clearing that up Jamestown.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

One thing I learned well in politics is you always blame on the opposition what you in fact are doing. It’s a simple form of projection. And it works.

jamestown9guy,

Please don’t try to put words in my mouth.  Had I wanted to intimidate you, I would gladly admit to it.  The question of intellectual superiority was one You raised… not me.

Nor have I asked you to “fix the mess,” as you so plaintively put it.  I merely asked that you offer some sort of meaningful public policy suggestions.  The reality is that “I wouldn’t have done this...” doesn’t carry much value.  That sort of drivel is readily available from any pink t-shirt wearing twit with a protest sign.

If you have indeed “spent 40 years playing with professionals” why not try demonstrating that you actually learned something, rather than having spent all that time in vain.  Sticking your own elbow in an opponent’s eye and then screaming “foul!” when your own foot is stomped on isn’t very professional, nor is it likely to garner much sympathy.

Perhaps when you have something a bit more substantive to offer…

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Jamestownguy, I have a hard time believing that a Reaganite would fail to understand the wisdom behind Bush’s tax policy (just one of the few things Bush has gotten right in terms of domestic policy), but whatever.

Welcome to SA.  It will be nice to have someone of your political experience on board.

If you’d like, check out the reader blogs area.  You can read posts from other readers (both Bat and Whistler in this thread are frequent contributors) and submit your own.

If you want access, click here and then click the “request a reader blog” link on the top of the right sidebar.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

There is a lot of meaningless intellectual mutual masturbation going on here which really goes nowhere and solves nothing.

I would be wasting my breath and time.

Rob..by the way...What I just said does not apply to you. You are a true gentleman and I appreciate your thoughts

Rob...I posted my remarks about mutual masturbation before I saw your last post to me. Had I read your post I would not have said it about you.

Carl Rove is a master strategist and all this crap that we are taking serious is the game of politics. We the people are just played. The Pac’s, lobbyists, and a number of very wealthy powerful people are really calling the shots and getting the benifits. This in part applies to both Democrats and Republican. The game is getting your people elected no matter what and money is the key.

You’re doing a great job representing the left jamestownguy.

No ideas, just partisan insults and standing in the way of progress.

That’s pretty typical of the left nowdays.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

No ideas, just partisan insults and standing in the way of progress.

You’re projecting, bub.

JG, I don’t think there’s much mutual masturbation going on here.  There is, I think, quite a lot of heated debate...and no small amount of jerky comments from both the left and the right.

The internet is a hard medium through which to debate politics.  Many of the long-time commenters here get attacked, daily, by trolling commenters so when someone no comes in with a sarcastic comment the impulse is to dismiss them as an unthinking partisan.

If you take the time to engage people like Bat and Whister (and many of the others here) thoughtfully I think they’ll respond in kind.  Not all will, there are jerks in this forum like anywhere else, but best to not sink to their level right?

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

The hike in minimum wage from $5 plus per hour to the eventual $7.50 sounds so good.  It’s kind of like the unfunded mandates that our government is so good at doing.  That is, using someone elses money to buy the votes for the Democrat party.  Kennedy is not stupid--he sees the tax relief to small business as the Republicans getting something for their voters.  To Kennedy, that is unfair.  Hey, folks, it’s vote buying time!

JG, you better watch out, you are eating out of donnie’s ricebowl and he will get all in a snit.

Oh, I see he already did!

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Rob, I certainly agree the internet is a hard media to debate anything and especially politics.

When I was active working for my man and my party on the right I would do what it took to get my man/woman elected. Then the goal becomes with ALL politicians to stay in office and we the people become their pawns.

Of course the Demo’s didn’t have the balls to stand up to this Pres. He saw the opportunity of a lifetime, capitalize on 9/11, become a wartime Pres and then roll over the Dems.

And he did just that. Smart politics…but that’s all it is. We the majority get little or nothing from it. This president just carried the political to a level I could not stomach.

Kennedy used to be one of my biggest foes, but he, Nixon, and Clinton are nothing in comparison to what this administration has done. That is why I knew I could not cross over that line.

When Ronnie got his fingers slapped because of the Contra deal I supported him to the limit. You know that old saying that we know what is best for you. Don’t worry we will take care of you. I even supported Nixon all the way……

Well, I think the President did what was right after 9/11.  We went into Afghanistan, and then we went into Iraq.  I’m with him here.

Where I get away from Bush is his refusal to veto any spending, and illegal immigration.  Among other things.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob,

I have less of a problem with the President’s stand on illegal immigration than I do on his lack of any substantive effort to secure the border.  Without secure borders, there is no sovereignty in the first place.

He has also been less active and forceful in setting the national mood to support this country’s efforts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the war against Islamist terrorism than I believe he ought to have been.

The final area in which I think the President has disappointed has been his apparent unwillingness to use the bully pulpit of his office to force the Dems in the Senate to back down from their filibusters of judicial appointments and allow vote, up or down, on each of his federal district and appellate court nominees.  The White House behavior in the cases of Priscilla Owens, Charles Pickering, Bill Pryor, Janet Rogers Brown and the rest was every bit as unconscionable as that of Harry Reid and the Democrats.  That McCain was allowed to take control of the process, after so long and pointless a wait is equally baffling.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

I think the border situation is a “can of worms” that most politicians would rather not get into, so he is probably wise in his position I think even though the problems have not been solved. With a 30% approval rating it’s hard for me to fathom how you can still support him on the war in Iraq. Yes I agree with being in Afghanistan and we should be there even stronger but we can’t because of Iraq. Going into Iraq, I feel has created a no win situation for us and because the rest of the world see’s that when 70% of his own people don’t agree with him...pretty glum for our country. And it’s all because he went into Iraq under false pretenses.

I think the border situation is a “can of worms” that most politicians would rather not get into, so he is probably wise in his position I think even though the problems have not been solved.

No the Democrats and Rino’s are chompin at the bit to grant amnesty.  The people want the border closed first before that’s even debated.

With a 30% approval rating it’s hard for me to fathom how you can still support him on the war in Iraq.

First of all why in the world would you not think that the so-called 30% don’t approve.  Secondly it’s well documented that he polls are greatly skewing their respondents to get the results they want.

Yes I agree with being in Afghanistan and we should be there even stronger but we can’t because of Iraq.

Not at all true.  If we needed them we would have had them.  The 20K surge isn’t come from Afghanistan is it?

Going into Iraq, I feel has created a no win situation for us and because the rest of the world see’s that when 70% of his own people don’t agree with him...pretty glum for our country. And it’s all because he went into Iraq under false pretenses.

Well we already covered the polls.  Who cares what the rest of the pinheads in the world think?  They’re wrong.  Why do those same pinheads think we should take the lead in Darfur and North Korea? 

I guess we shouldn’t have listened to the UN when they said he had WMD’s and when they gave those resolutions that he must disarm.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I realize this discussion is getting far field from the subject and I don’t know if that is normal for this group?

In California oranges are selling for $1.95 a lb because of the freeze. I wonder what they would sell for if we had no one to pick them. Construction is dependent upon Mexicans for their survival. I don’t see any Republican major Corp who is dependent upon their labor pushing this issue

I guess we shouldn’t have listened to the UN when they said he had WMD’s and when they gave those resolutions that he must disarm.

This administration only likes the UN when they bully it into saying what they want to hear. In this case they gave them false info.

I realize this discussion is getting far field from the subject and I don’t know if that is normal for this group?

It is the epitome of normal for this group.  I once was out of town.  I did a post announcing that I was leaving and wouldn’t be posting for a while.  When I came back that thread had 200 comments, most relating to a debate or whether Pop Tarts were better toasted or un-toasted.

To say that the folks here like to argue is an understatement.  But there is more than just this one post.  Look around.  Check out the reader blogs.  There’s always something to talk about.

In California oranges are selling for $1.95 a lb because of the freeze.

That’s evil Big Fruit putting the squeeze on Americans like the oil companies did after hurricane Katrina.

When’s Dorgan going to slap ‘em with a windfall profits tax?

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

First of all why in the world would you not think that the so-called 30% don’t approve.  Secondly it’s well documented that he polls are greatly skewing their respondents to get the results they want.

Your first sentence makes no sense? Your second one is funny and of course very political because all politicians think the same when they are not getting the results from the polls they want.

It is the epitome of normal for this group.  I once was out of town.  I did a post announcing that I was leaving and wouldn’t be posting for a while.  When I came back that thread had 200 comments, most relating to a debate or whether Pop Tarts were better toasted or un-toasted.
To say that the folks here like to argue is an understatement.  But there is more than just this one post.  Look around.  Check out the reader blogs.  There’s always something to talk about.

Very funny Rob and I agree with you 100% on the orange and gas prices crap

Yes, I am new to blogs. Even thought I am retired I am still running a business and I had employee, federal and state taxes due today in two states so I was doing that while trying to pay attention. (5pm deadline) to get in the mail.

I don’t see any Republican major Corp who is dependent upon their labor pushing this issue

There you go again making us think that you aren’t who you say you are.  You know that plenty of big businessmen are Democrats.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

jamestown9guy,

First of all, let’s abbreviate to jt9, okay.  I’m quite adept at a number of things, but typing ain’t one of ‘em.

Next, not everyone here is thoughtful enough to mark their respective bits of sarcasm, and I’m far more guilty of this than anyone else.  In second place, however, is Whistler, for example his remark about the UN and the idiot notion that the US needs that pathetic failure’s authorization for our actions in Iraq… or any other such.

Looking for an illicit nuclear or chem/bio weapons program in the Iraqi desert is pointless when the weapons program in question is located in the south Libyan mountains of the northern Sahara.  That the IAEA and its UN parent didn’t know this, only compounds the problem.  Of course, they apparently knew nothing of the illicit Khan network either, so what’s one more UN f**k up?

Finally, regarding those California oranges.  Your remark about the workers needed to pick the fruit is quite beside the point (Please not the self-restraint here!) It’s kinda like the guy appearing before the judge and trying to explain that he couldn’t help running down the kid on the bicycle ‘cause he was drunk at the time of the accident.

If the law is such a horrific economic burden, then the correct procedure is to rescind the law.  But in the meantime, an illegal alien is just that...illegal.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Your first sentence makes no sense?

OK, I admit that it wasn’t that well written.  However you said that you can’t believe that Rob supported the president when he had only 30% approval. 

Umm that would mean that Rob was one of the 30% hardly unbelievable. 

The ONLY way I can make sense of that is to assume that you actually think that someone must change their personal opinion because the polls don’t agree with him.  I have a hard time believing anyone who’s not a high school girl would think that way.

Finally if the war was that unpopular the Democrats would have run on the surrender platform just three months ago.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

You guys are absolutely crazy. I really do get a kick out of you though.  Thank god none of you are running the country. LOL I thought Bush was bad but he is an angel in comparison to some of you. Politics is not so black and white I think.

Of course some big business owners are demo and of course politicians don’t agree with polls that don’t favor their position. So they develop their line for the day and sell it to the press. We all know this. And the people on Fox get their ratings up by going on a Liberal witch hunt because everyone knows that is the Right wing’s network

Bat one, thank you for your restraint and I would like to clarify what I was saying.

Finally, regarding those California oranges.  Your remark about the workers needed to pick the fruit is quite beside the point (Please not the self-restraint here!) It’s kinda like the guy appearing before the judge and trying to explain that he couldn’t help running down the kid on the bicycle ‘cause he was drunk at the time of the accident.

If the law is such a horrific economic burden, then the correct procedure is to rescind the law.  But in the meantime, an illegal alien is just that...illegal.

We all know that illegal Mexican workers will work for less than what American workers will. They are hard workers, show up, don’t complain, don’t want to sue and often no benefits. Such a deal for the boss. So why should they want to get rid of them.

The janitorial business Nation Wide would fold without them, not to mention a number of other type jobs that Americans won’t do. When I was talking about the price of oranges I was only giving that as an example of what the average cost would have to be if the employer was forced to use legal workers.

jt9,

Please re-read your comment here.  Are arguing against enforcing a law, or are you instead arguing in favor of rescinding that law?

My point is that the proper approach is to change or rescind the law if it imposes such an undue hardship or economic burden, or if the law is now considered unworkable, unenforceable, or unjust.

Put another way, do we really want to set a precedent of officially ignoring our own laws, whatever the currently-favored rationale?  Where does that practice lead us in the long run?

If we are truly “a nation of laws… not of men” as we like to tell ourselves, then there is no other way, for there is no legally acceptable process for deciding which laws to adhere to and which to ignore.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Don Myers said, You’re projecting, bub.

Remember folks, this insulting guy has gone on record as saying, “the Bush administration makes me paranoid”.

jamestown9guy said, Your second one is funny and of course very political because all politicians think the same when they are not getting the results from the polls they want.

You’re speaking out of ignorance James. Biased media polls are no lie. If you stick around, you’ll notice that every major polling company oversamples Democrats by 10 to 25 points, consistently.

Politics is not so black and white I think.

This is a funny statement coming from you considering that you have made so many issues “black and white”. I guess it only counts when the opposition makes a distinction.

The janitorial business Nation Wide would fold without them, not to mention a number of other type jobs that Americans won’t do.

The janitorial business isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s a job that needs done, and until there are robots that can efficiently do that job, humans will have to do it.

What are “jobs that Americans won’t do”? That sounds like a mighty bullshit and condescending statement. Eliminate welfare and they’ll have no choice but to work for their keep.

Bat One and likwidshoe, you are both saying that the border situation be solved either black or white it seems and I am saying it’s not that easy. It would be nice if it was and ideally it should be. Perhaps we should enforce the laws that say it is illegal to hire illegal immigrants? No jobs, no immigrants. Or perhaps we should not give illegal immigrants medical benefits? Why haven’t we done that?

I have contact with a lot of employers who have Mexican workers and none of them would want to get rid of them.

You don’t say if these “Mexican Workers” are here legally or not.

If they’re illegal they should be deported and if the employer didn’t follow procedures they should be fined.

If they are here legally, great, I don’t mind anyone as long as they’re here obeying the law and contributing to society.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

likwidshoe, you said

You’re speaking out of ignorance James. Biased media polls are no lie. If you stick around, you’ll notice that every major polling company oversamples Democrats by 10 to 25 points, consistently

Your same case could be made during the Clinton fiasco when all the bad polls were saying the public thought a mans sex habits were more important than National and world wide prosperity and peace.

One truism can be said about polls and that is no matter how unfair they may be they do in fact influence public opinion and that in turn influences money that parties and campaigns must have. Neither you nor I can change that.

Bat One and likwidshoe, you are both saying that the border situation be solved either black or white it seems and I am saying it’s not that easy.

jt9,

Neither of us is saying that at all.  Lik, who can speak admirably well on his own behalf, seems to be saying that your arguments amount to so much imminently reasonable sounding bullshit… a seductive rationalization for not doing what clearly ought to be done.

I am saying that in a nation of laws, respect for those laws ought to be a primary concern, and that laws ought to be enforced or changed.  Period.  To simply ignore laws which prove to be inconvenient or unworkable undermines our entire system of self governance, a system which is far more important than the janitorial industry, the drywall industry, or the most recent fruit and vegetable harvesting concerns.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

The janitorial business isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s a job that needs done, and until there are robots that can efficiently do that job, humans will have to do it.

What are “jobs that Americans won’t do”? That sounds like a mighty bullshit and condescending statement. Eliminate welfare and they’ll have no choice but to work for their keep.

I don’t know where you live or if you are an employer but real world reality is that there is a lot of “don’t ask don’t tell” going on because employers KNOW they can’t get legal workers at the price and terms of illegal workers. I was in Miami twice this year and my driver showed me a number of large major construction projects that had been shut down because this issue was being enforced. What do you think that causes? Contractors have large sums of borrowed money at stake....it becomes a nasty chain reaction. And that is just a small example.

And as far as jobs Americans won’t do? That is a fact. If I can get an illegal who will work hard, show up, not complain, not sue, not want benifits? You shown me any American worker who will do that for $7.00 to $10.00 a hour

And the janitorial business is full of illegal workers

Your same case could be made during the Clinton fiasco when all the bad polls were saying the public thought a mans sex habits were more important than National and world wide prosperity and peace.

jt9,

Given all that was said here yesterday, I expected a helluva lot more substance from you than this silly drivel!  The idea that national and world-wide prosperity and peace might have been in any sort of jeopardy with the removal of Bill Clinton from office is arrogance on a par with that of te execrable William Arkin.

Had this country been at war during the Clinton years, perhaps, just perhaps, your suggestion might have some validity.  We should have been at war back then, as the seditious thievery of Sandy Berger indicates, but we weren’t.  As you so inelegantly point out, Clinton’s “sex habits” were a more pressing concern, to Clinton most of all, than the peace and prosperity you allude to.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

If I can get an illegal who will work hard, show up, not complain, not sue, not want benifits? You shown me any American worker who will do that for $7.00 to $10.00 a hour

So that’s an excuse to break the law.  If the job is worth $15 an hour to legal workers than that’s what you should pay.

That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have LEGAL immigrants to supplement the labor force to keep up with our economy.

Hiring illegals to save money is just plain wrong.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Whistler:

So that’s an excuse to break the law.  If the job is worth $15 an hour to legal workers than that’s what you should pay.
That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have LEGAL immigrants to supplement the labor force to keep up with our economy.
Hiring illegals to save money is just plain wrong.

I could not agree with you more. I am not saying it is right, I am just saying that when it comes down to doing something about it, the real world political system is not likely to do anything about it anytime soon.

One thing most employers don’t want are Unions. To force this issue could bring that one down on them.Or it will force the outsourcing that is already a major problem to American workers.

I think you’re totally off-base making a case that employers are somehow holding up closing the border.

Are there some employers like that, yes.  Do they have any kind of political pull, no.

The problem comes about from the desire of many politicians (more on the left side) to cater to the hispanic vote.

I think that’s a losing issue because LEGAL immigrants don’t seem to be very happy with the illegal situation either.

The fix is to expel the illegals and set a reasonable level of needed legal immigration.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Bat One

Given all that was said here yesterday, I expected a helluva lot more substance from you than this silly drivel!  The idea that national and world-wide prosperity and peace might have been in any sort of jeopardy with the removal of Bill Clinton from office is arrogance on a par with that of te execrable William Arkin.
Had this country been at war during the Clinton years, perhaps, just perhaps, your suggestion might have some validity.  We should have been at war back then, as the seditious thievery of Sandy Berger indicates, but we weren’t.  As you so inelegantly point out, Clinton’s “sex habits” were a more pressing concern, to Clinton most of all, than the peace and prosperity you allude to.

My… My...It really is hard for you to be civil isn’t it. You would never make it in politics LOL and I would have never been able to hire you in any campaign because you would turn people off by always calling them stupid and acting so superior. Your knowledge would be lost in your delivery. Of course I know you know this.

jamestown9guy said:

My… My...It really is hard for you to be civil isn’t it. You would never make it in politics LOL and I would have never been able to hire you in any campaign because you would turn people off by always calling them stupid and acting so superior. Your knowledge would be lost in your delivery. Of course I know you know this.

Of course his very first post was heavy in the sarcasm but wrong in the facts:

It is such an honor to be writting with all you super rich people. This administration has done almost nothing in 6 years to help anyone with a taxable income of less than $200,000 a year.

And then in his 7th post of his short stint here he said this:

There is a lot of meaningless intellectual mutual masturbation going on here

Who should be lecturing who?

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Whistler

The fix is to expel the illegals and set a reasonable level of needed legal immigration

Sounds like a good plan to me except know one knows how or is willing to do it. The border states of, Calif, Ariz, and Texas are most effected. I think the Govs of these states are Republicans

Last time I checked responsibility for protecting our borders belonged to the Federal Government.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Whistler:

I may not agree with you about the issues but you are not wrong about my own sarcasm. I just try not to call people stupid just because they don’t agree with me. And I will try to be less sarcastic.

jt9,

For someone who has been as demonstrably snide in so short a period of time, as Whistler has detailed, you seem to have an inordinately thin skin.  Particularly for someone who claims to have spent so many, many years in the political trenches.

Re-read my comment from which you quoted.  There is nothing un-civil about what I’ve said, nor have I resorted to calling you names, as you have accused me of doing.  I had expected a more substantive argument from you, based on yesterday’s discussion, and I have merely voiced my disappointment that you failed to live up to that expectation.  Certainly I can learn to expect less from you in future conversations, and neither of us will risk losing any sleep over the matter.  And if it helps, I’ll also promise not to offer to work for you on any future campaigns.  Feel better, now?

Now that we’ve dealt with your indignation, and my exaggerated expectations and intellectual intolerance, how about discussing issues for change?

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

For everyone’s benefit I think the evidence is clear that people around here respond in-kind to who they are addressed.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I would be more than happy to start again on hopefully a better foot.

Here is part of the problem as I see it. If I tuned into a radio station and did not have any idea what program it was I could hear people talking about some rotten Political maneuver or party doing all these dastardly things and presenting all these convincing facts and I would agree with him and say “Yes...those dame Republicans are doing it to us again...a few seconds later I find out he is talking about the Democrats...It could be just as easily reversed.

So what is my point? I have never seen it worse in my lifetime....The anger and division that has happened in our country. Bush was supposed to be the President who could bring us together.

I agree with you Whistler

Last time I checked responsibility for protecting our borders belonged to the Federal Government.

But as I recall it seems the current Republican Gov of California refused to send State National Guard troops to the border when requested to do so by the Pres...And also as I recall the Republicans have been in Control of both Congress and the White House for 6 years a and they have not done anything??

And also as I recall the Republicans have been in Control of both Congress and the White House for 6 years a and they have not done anything??

Well the conversation started about how the conservatives here (myself included BTW) are upset with GWB for not doing more. 

On the other hand the Republicans in the House did stop the amnesty bill (it didn’t work last time) and did pass the border fence bill.

After saying that I think we’d agree that there is a disconnect between the Republicans in Washington and the Republican base.  But the party that is less wrong on illegal immigration is the Republicans IMO.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I don’t know anything about anyone else here but I can say that I have paid my dues as an American to have my voice heard and I hope you have done so also. I hope you are not one of these people who sets around and gathers facts, data, and complains and does nothing. I feel you have to put your body where your mouth is.

I served 7 years active duty, 30 years in the political process, first as a volunteer and later hired after three Campaign Management schools. Have been and still am a Company owner paying terrible taxes in two States. Been trained and grounded in Politics by some of the best. Have been on both sides and can understand and make both sides of the argument. Both Ford and Ronnie I met and greatly admired both at the time and still do Ford. I think he was one of the most honest presidents we have had in my lifetime.

You may very well be right Whistler

But the party that is less wrong on illegal immigration is the Republicans IMO.

And as I said when we started this line of talk it is a “keg of worms” with no easy solutions IMO.

Keg of worms, that’s an interesting word usement.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

The term is probably “can” of worms LOL

jamestown9guy said, Your same case could be made during the Clinton fiasco when all the bad polls were saying the public thought a mans sex habits were more important than National and world wide prosperity and peace.

I don’t remember the polls saying that at all. I remember two polls during that time. They would ask how Clinton’s “job performance” was - that was one poll and it was the poll loudly touted by much of the media (because it was higher). Then they would ask about his “personal life” - that was the second poll.

And as far as jobs Americans won’t do? That is a fact. If I can get an illegal who will work hard, show up, not complain, not sue, not want benifits? You shown me any American worker who will do that for $7.00 to $10.00 a hour

You’re not being quite honest saying that it’s a “fact” that there are “jobs Americans won’t do”. It would be correct to say that there are jobs Americans won’t do when given low compensation.

Americans do quite a few dirty jobs. To suggest that the janitorial business is above the American worker is the height of arrogance.

I’m pretty sure that in my long life, I have done most of these jobs that Americans won’t do and perhaps some even nastier stuff that was too sordid to make your lists.  I always looked for better jobs and it is the glory of this great nation that better jobs were often available.  The ‘real’ Americans do not turn their noses at any work as being beneath them.  The ‘phony’ ones, well that really is the problem, isn’t it?

Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong