Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Tuesday, November 20, 2007

Supreme Court Will Hear Challenge To DC Gun Ban

The highly ineffective DC gun ban, as I noted earlier.

In a decision that could affect gun control laws across the nation, the Supreme Court has agreed to consider whether the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to carry a gun….

The Supreme Court agreed to step in because the issue has caused a deep split in the lower courts. While a majority of courts have said that the right to bear arms refers in connection to service in a state militia, two federal courts have said the amendment protects an individual’s right to keep a gun.

One of those courts, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, went as far as striking down a decades-long ban on the private ownership of handguns in the District of Columbia. It is this case the court has agreed to consider.

The district will argue that the Second Amendment does not prevent the city from enacting reasonable regulations to limit gun possessions in order to protect residents.

The petition raises one question: “whether the Second Amendment forbids the District of Columbia from banning private possession of handguns while allowing possession of rifles and shotguns.”

I’m hopeful that the Supremes will issue the right verdict, but after the Kelo decision (where even the normally spot-on Justice Scalia got it wrong) who knows.

The correct ruling in this is blindingly obvious.  The 2nd amendment sets out that American citizens have a right to keep and bear arms.  The people who wrote the 2nd amendment are on record saying that it was included as last-ditch protection against tyranny.  For instance, Thomas Jefferson wanted to include the words “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms” in the Virginia constitution.  When New Hampshire ratified the Constitution, they included this statement: “Congress shall never disarm any citizen, unless such as are or have been in actual rebellion.” And on and on.

Alexander Hamilton:

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government

Noah Webster:

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.

James Madison:

[Tyranny cannot be safe] without a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.

I could go on, but you get the point.  The people who wrote the constitution believed in an armed populace.  If we want to change that today (and I, personally, think that would be folly) we have to amend the constitution.

That’s the only way around it.

Comments

Avatar for Jay

Are there limits?

In other words, do American citizens have the right to bear any and all arms?  Or do they have the right to bear only those arms which would allow them to revolt against a army of tyranny? 

Hell, with the advances in technology in today’s armed forces, I’m not sure those two questions aren’t asking the same thing.

Jay on November 20, 2007 at 04:01 pm

Jay: No matter how effective or ineffective, the 2nd Amendment contains no limitations on what is a legal firearm. If we are to be ruled by the Constitution either that right is virtually unlimited, well except they must be able to bear (carry) them perhaps. Otherwise the people must amend the constitution and thank God our Founding Father’s made that a very difficult process. Although the Congress and the Supremes occasionally ignore the Constitution and amend it as they see fit.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on November 20, 2007 at 04:16 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

Are there limits?

You tell me.  What does the 2nd amendment say?

Clearly, there aren’t.  So if you want some, advocate to amend the constitution.  Personally, I think we should start with outlawing the personal possession of nuclear arms.  Any other suggestions?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 04:17 pm
Avatar for ec99

Should be interesting.  The wording is ambiguous; is it a collective permission, related to belonging to a militia, or is it individual?  Considering the ruling is a DC case, where life is cheap, and the local news broadcast begins every night with eight murders, perhaps it should be individual.  But this will be a major decision.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 04:19 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

The wording is ambiguous; is it a collective permission, related to belonging to a militia, or is it individual?

It’s not ambiguous at all, only archaic.

This is a blindingly obvious decision, given what we know of the intent of the founders.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 04:28 pm
Avatar for ec99

Your interpretation of it being archaic or not is neither here nor there.  It’s what the USSC interprets it to be.  The first clause of the amendment clouds the issue.  If five on the Court believe one has to belong to a militia to have the right to own a gun, things don’t look so good for the gun rights advocates.  Personally, I’m sorry to see this go to the SC; I don’t think they’ll support gun ownership, or they’ll come up with some convoulted decision that no one will understand.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 04:43 pm

I’m sorry to see this go to the SC; I don’t think they’ll support gun ownership, or they’ll come up with some convoulted decision that no one will understand

.I too feel uncomfortable about how the court decision will likely distort the true meaning of the 2nd amendment. i.e. citizen gun ownership has no bounds.  The main problem is if the court rules in favor of the original intent of the 2nd amendment, virtually all the existing gun laws will be declared unconstitutional and I don’t see the court doing that.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on November 20, 2007 at 04:59 pm
Avatar for ec99

If you look to the past, you’ll see that cases appearing before the SC are a roll of the dice.  The Roe decision was not so important for abortion rights, as for establishing a right to privacy, a word that never appears in the Constitution.  The O’Hare decision about school prayer is the same; the Court inferred a “wall” between religion and secular society, where to word “wall” exists (it’s in a letter by Jefferson). Bork got, well, Borked, because he criticized this fast and loose Court interpretive excess.  So, archaic or not, all bets are off when they take on the 2nd Amendment.  Anything is possible.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 05:07 pm
Avatar for paul supporter

Here is what I think will happen.  The SC will rule in a way that leaves many unanswered questions/vague.  This giving the government the ability to say this or that is illegal by interpreting the ruling themselves.  They may treat it like the ban on fireworks in most towns in North Dakota that no one speaks up about.  People will be put in jail for some type of weapons (like they are now) until they can go to the supreme court again and get a ruling on it one way or the other. (costing millions if they can even get it on the docket)
Imagine if they describe a weapon the way our school systems do here and around the country?

Or

They will once again rule in the militia fashion and even that was vague.  Who were these people in these militias at the time of the signing?  Were they government organized or private citizens/farmers and business owners?  There are militias popping up all over the place here in N.D., just ask a well informed police officer. This will leave it wide open as to who can create a militia, can there be a militia of one Person?  Is there any law against creating militias in North Dakota?  Some people say the National Guard is a militia?  Is the National Guard the only militia we can have?  Is there a ND state militia?  Do you have to register to be a militia, like the Alabama militia that got busted and are still in jail for making grenades?  The FBI went in undercover and had them show the under cover agent how to make a grenade and they busted them.  Can anyone join a militia?

That ruling was crazy IMO.

Either way I think it will be bad news for The United States and firearms, but I am hoping for the best.

Just look at this http://www.statemilitias.com

You will find nothing there. 

The current thinking I see people have is we have the National Guard and police to protect us and that militias are bad, that is flawed to say the least.  Well, some militias may be bad, but who will be the judge of that?

You may know a militia member if you are in a small town here in North Dakots, and frankly some even scare me.

This type of judicial law making has always come back to bite the United States in the behind.

paul supporter on November 20, 2007 at 06:12 pm

Currently US Code says that I’m in the militia so that’s all I need, right?


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on November 20, 2007 at 06:21 pm

“A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

While it talks to the need for a well-regulated militia to secure our liberty, it is ‘the people,’ not a government or militia that have this right to keep and bear arms and it does not say they must be a member of a militia to do so.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on November 20, 2007 at 06:32 pm
Avatar for ec99

I have a strong hunch that the SC is going to come up with an incredibly narrow ruling as regards only the DC law, which will leave the larger question open to continued to debate.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 06:33 pm
Avatar for ec99

"While it talks to the need for a well-regulated militia to secure our liberty, it is ‘the people,’”

Problem is, back then, the people WERE the militia.  Which is the whole problem, a whole different context from when the founders were writing the Constitution.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 06:36 pm

ec99: Of course in way you are right, the militia and most male citizens were indistinquishable. But, the Constitution does not state that the people must be a member of the militia in order to keep and bear arms. Why? If only a national guard type of militia can keep or bear arms, the federal government can exercise power over that militia and if need be disarm them; but with average citizens owning tens of millions of weapons, unregistered, they are a real threat to a dictatorship, as the people can still fight to defend their liberty.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on November 20, 2007 at 06:53 pm
Avatar for ec99

"they are a real threat to a dictatorship”

I think this is a red herring.  The idea of a military coup d’état is unlikely.  The need for weapons to to defend oneself against the sociopath preditors who believe that whatever they can take by force is rightfully theirs. A gut breaks down your kitchen door and faces you, are you standing there with your dick in your hand or a .357 magnum?  If the former, you’re dead meat. If the latter, he is.  The cops cannot protect the citizens.  And this is not just true for DC or NYC or LA or Boston.  Here in GF, the last time I called the cops, the response time was 25 minutes.  By then I’d be dead without a weapon.  I really don’t think the SC will rule against private ownership of guns.  Once again, I think they’ll come out with some complicated opinion no one understands, which applies only to DC.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 07:18 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

“they are a real threat to a dictatorship”

I think this is a red herring.

But that was the founder’s intent by including it in the Constitution.  Things may have changed since the document was written, but that doesn’t mean we can just change the meaning to match the times.

And I also think private gun ownership is an important part of citizenship to this day.  If all else goes to hell, at least we have an armed citizenry that can attempt to fight to put it right again.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 07:29 pm

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied

males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section

313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a

declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States

and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the

National Guard.

US Code


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on November 20, 2007 at 07:35 pm
Avatar for ec99

"But that was the founder’s intent by including it in the Constitution.  Things may have changed since the document was written, but that doesn’t mean we can just change the meaning to match the times.”

Sure it does.  The Founders did not give women the vote.  They recognized slavery as a valid institution. The Founders were coming off of a time when England imposed military might to stifle personal freedom.  They believed that only people in streets with weapons could counteract that.  So if your standing on a GF street with a gun in your hand, who will you shoot at?  It is a whole different historical context from then.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 07:46 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

Sure it does.  The Founders did not give women the vote.  They recognized slavery as a valid institution.

Right, and how were those things fixed?  By some judge choosing to interpret the text of the constitution differently?

Nope.  The constitution was amended.  So if you want to change the meaning of the second amendment you need to do the same thing.

Good luck trying.

The Founders were coming off of a time when England imposed military might to stifle personal freedom.  They believed that only people in streets with weapons could counteract that.  So if your standing on a GF street with a gun in your hand, who will you shoot at?  It is a whole different historical context from then.

So just because we’re not oppressed now we should give up our most basic protection against a time when we could be oppressed?

Makes no sense.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 08:00 pm
Avatar for paul supporter

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied

males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section

313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a

declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States

and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the

National Guard.

Just for all the women that read that, In title 1 chapter 1 General provisions.

It basicaly says that when they say males, females are included in that,lol.

paul supporter on November 20, 2007 at 08:05 pm
Avatar for ec99

Uh, have I said anywhere in this thread that I am anti-gun? Quite the contrary I believe.  What I have said is that the SC will likely make a very narrow ruling affecting the DC law.  What that will be I don’t have a clue.  I have also said that the argument about a military takeover is less convincing than the argument of protecting your home.  The cops can’t do it.  In GF, they’re busy writing traffic tickets to fill the public coffers.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 08:08 pm
Avatar for paul supporter

ec99 I think you and Rob are on the same page, just using different situations.  I could throw it the China angle as well, talk about we are only 5% of the worlds population as well.

But hell, if I need to go hunting to feed my family, I will go hunting.

Cold dead hands!!

paul supporter on November 20, 2007 at 08:19 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

Uh, have I said anywhere in this thread that I am anti-gun?

Where were you accused of it?

I have also said that the argument about a military takeover is less convincing than the argument of protecting your home.  The cops can’t do it.  In GF, they’re busy writing traffic tickets to fill the public coffers.

Fair enough, but in response to my statement about the founders’ intent with the 2nd amendment and how the passing of time doesn’t change that intent you started talking about slavery and women’s suffrage.

Which prompted me to point out that those changes were the result of amendments.  I wasn’t aware, until this point, what your position was on guns in general.  If you find the “home defense” argument for 2A to be the most compelling that’s great.  I find it equally as compelling as the “last defense against tyranny” argument.

Because that’s just as true, if not as readily apparent.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 08:31 pm
Avatar for ec99

The problem with the anti-coup d’état argument is that, ultimately, a modern army intent on taking over the goverment would mow down any individual holding a hand gun or a rifle.  Doesn’t matter how many people you had in streets...it would be Budapest or Prague. Chances are you wouldn’t get a shot off.  It works from an emotional side, but not a realistic one.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 08:42 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

Well better to go into such a situation fighting than to disarm ourselves and accept what comes (not that you’re talking about disarming).

Plus, sheer firepower isn’t always the key part of resistance:

Free Image Hosting at allyoucanupload.com

But the “citizen soldier” thing made possible by the 2nd amendment is more than some guy standing in the street with a shotgun waiting for a coup.  It’s a state of mind.  Most coups happen with the cooperation of the military.  Can you imagine our military of citizen soldiers doing any such thing?

When you grow up being taught that you’re a member of the citizen militia it’s hard to convince you, should you enlist in the military, that you should use your gun to oppress your fellow citizens.

I know the idea of a coup seems absurd to us sitting comfortably in our living rooms, but this is important stuff.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 08:47 pm
Avatar for ec99

"I know the idea of a coup seems absurd to us sitting comfortably in our living rooms, but this is important stuff.”

I agree completely.  The soldiers brought into Beijing were from the provinces and told they were stopping a revolution.  The Russians brought into Budapest and Prague were told they were stopping western imperialism.  Would John Jones aim a weapon against a fellow American?  Unlikely.  The values run too deep.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 08:54 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

The values run too deep.

And part of that is the citzen-soldier.

Which means no poo-pooing the “defense against tyranny” angle of the 2nd amendment.  It’s real.  It’s a part of our revolution we need to keep alive.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 09:03 pm
Avatar for paul supporter

The problem with the anti-coup d’état argument is that, ultimately, a modern army intent on taking over the goverment would mow down any individual holding a hand gun or a rifle.  Doesn’t matter how many people you had in streets...it would be Budapest or Prague. Chances are you wouldn’t get a shot off.  It works from an emotional side, but not a realistic one.

Ok, this is where I prolly get slammed.

There are a lot of people in our military that will take the opposite side in a coupe.  I make a point in asking every military/police officer person I know that question.  “What would you do if they asked you to take our Guns or the government declares Martial law on us and wants to install a dictator.  More people should do that, IMO

Most of the times I get an answer like, “I will do what ever is best for my community”.  Military people are not as vague, they say they will take what they can and use it against the oppressor.  These people will know the weakness of the military more than most and will be a great help.

All standing armies need to eventually hit the ground, or kill us all with nukes.  If they come after us on the ground, we are so spread out it will take a long time to get us all.  We have a fighting chance, for god sakes man, don’t just give up.

If they come at us with nukes or chemical weapons they will take us out easy if they are willing to nuke the whole United States, but that’s unlikely.  Either way we should have our guns till the end to try.

Fight to the End

What do you have to lose?

paul supporter on November 20, 2007 at 09:03 pm
Avatar for ec99

"Ok, this is where I prolly get slammed.”

Why?  I agree.  What works against the coup argument is the American psyche, an anti-dictatorship point of view.  I no more think the army or National Guard is going to march into GF than I think my mother is going to rise from the dead.  But, I do think some a$$hole looter may attempt to enter my house.  That is what I would need a gun for.  Problem is, I’d probably be arrested for greasing him.

ec99 on November 20, 2007 at 09:41 pm
Avatar for paul supporter

I was thinking someone would tell me to take off my tinfoil hat and that I was paranoid, lol.

Alls I was doing was trying to reply to your post and be honest about it. It is very, very unlikely, but that is what the constitution has the 2nd amendment for, protection.

paul supporter on November 20, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Rob
Rob
17901 comments
Send a private message

I’d say it’s very, very unlikely because of the 2nd amendment.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on November 20, 2007 at 10:07 pm

One thing you all left out is when tyrannies are threatened by their oppressed citizens, they often revert to mercenary armies to qwell the insurgence, and of course, mercenaries will not hesitate to kill.  Just who those mercenaries might be, I don’t know, although the so-called UN peace keepers come to mind [except they all seem to be a bunch of weenies]. 

Anyway the success of any rebellion against a tyrannical government would likely depend on a significant portion of the standing military giving up their arms or joining with the insurgents.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on November 20, 2007 at 10:23 pm

I was thinking someone would tell me to take off my tinfoil hat and that I was paranoid, lol.

We usually only say that to off-the-wall irrational comments.  You were arguing (discussing) quite lucidly.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on November 20, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Avatar for dannyboy

when tyrannies are threatened by their oppressed citizens, they often revert to mercenary armies to qwell the insurgence, and of course, mercenaries will not hesitate to kill.  Just who those mercenaries might be, I don’t know,

Here’s a hint: Sable H2O.

dannyboy on November 20, 2007 at 10:42 pm

docdave: the reason you think the blue hatters are a bunch of weenies is because you are comparing them to the well trained and motivated US and NATO forces.  Compared one for one against armies of the rest of the world, they seem pretty average to me (though also somewhat hobbled by their ROE).


I also write on http://www.combateffective.us
Where dissent is encouraged - But the amoral
liberal collective appeasement mindset is not

T-Rex on November 22, 2007 at 04:13 pm
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses.