Say Anything Blog

Besides Rob, the Constitution provides for the suspension of Habeas Corpus in the time of war (or insurrections). 

Therefore the administration is going very carefully by making it clear this only applies to aliens.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Prisoners of war don’t have the right of habeas corpus already.  Therefore to argue they should be given that right is by no means a conservative nor necessarily a reasonable one.

There is absolutely no tradition of extending constitutional protections, specifically habeas corpus relief, to war detainees.  America has never, ever done that in any of the wars or conflicts we’ve fought in the past.

Rob,

Don’t be so quick to dismiss the determination of those who regard any conservative defeat as a victory.  Extending constitutional protections to alien terrorist detainees is merely the flip side of using foreign laws to rationalize liberal activist judicial decisions.

If I were visiting here from any other nation, I would be scared to death. What’s that about power corrupting, absolute power---. You would have to be nuts to trust this administration or its representatives to use restrain in their paranoia. I wouldn’t bet my freedom of it.

Get real Margie.  Americans travel to foreign countries all of the time where they don’t have the same Constitutional safety’s we have.

You know what, if you follow the law there isn’t any trouble in those other countries.

So you’re saying foreigners will come to this country and regret not having protections they don’t have in their own countries.

Besides a person still has to be an enemy combatant in order for this law to apply.

Talk about paranoia.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

And a lot of Americans are detained in those countrys, requiring a lot of diplomatic action to obtain their release. Who gets to define “enemy combatant” or “material assistance”?  What recourse is there for the innocent? You are either saying that the powers that be are infalible or that if you aren’t a citizen, it doesn’t matter anyway. Our recent track record of holding people for years, only to release them, with,"OOPs! me bad .Made a mistake” is scary.This low give-a-darn level regarding guilt or innocence in the name of a nebulous security is far from reassuring.

Paranoid Margie: 

You’re not fooling anyone.  You have to put away your hate of Republicans and work for what’s best for the country.

The law actually spells things out pretty well.

(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant’ means--

`(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

`(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

I’ve tried three tIMES to reply to this blog and each time I patiently retype it, am told I am not human by that little word thing! If this should get through, somehow, YEAH, I’M GETTING VERY PARANOID!

Margie, try registering and then you won’t have to fill out the captcha thing any more.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Once more: Yes, I’m a liberal Democrat, no I don’t hate Republicans, just have a healthy distrust of the current executive branch and it’s power grabs.  I usually disagree with Republicans for the most part on most things, that doesn’t make me paranoid.

A what-if, if you please: I’m an Irish tourist who inadvertently contributed to a charity deemed suspicious by Homeland Security. Can I trust 3 military guys, whose job it is to be suspicious and who answer to no judge to believe that I was not aware of where that money went? Can I afford not to have an atorney, a court appearance where the burden of proof rests with the accuser? How many months, years will pass before someone decides that my spotless background is enough to give me the benefit of the doubt and let me go home? Ugh, goose bumps just thinking about what we have become.

Once more: Yes, I’m a liberal Democrat… I usually disagree with Republicans for the most part on most things, that doesn’t make me paranoid.

Margie,

Not paranoid, mabye, but definately confused.

Margie: Can we afford to let a possible terrorist/terrorist funder get away?  Who should take the risk here; thousands of possible victims, or one person?  This shouldn’t be a partisan question, but it is because the Dems won’t step up to the plate and do what it takes to defend our country against those who would destroy it.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Margie:  You’re living in a fantasy world trying to make up some kind of sceanerio why this measure, necessary to fighting the war we’re in, would be bad.

Margie you’ve got to give up your hate and admit that George Bush won the election, that terrorists are bad guys and that even though you don’t agree with them that Republicans aren’t evil.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Margie,

Bush comes into office with sliding economy and negative job growth. For which of the following results will you being voting democrat?

Tax Cuts leads to 6+ mil new jobs.
4.6% record low unemployment.
Interest rates remain low.
Real Estate !!Boom!!
Record home ownership (minorities included).
And now lowering energy costs.

All this while “weathering”:
Dot com bust.
9-11.
corporate scandals.
2 wars. (With no new terrorist attacks)
Hurricanes Katrina & Rita.

Tried to register, said I was not authorized to. I give up. Spent ten minutes listing all my reason for voting Democrat, and why the price is too high for a nebulous saftey. Don’t want to play anymore. Thanks, ya’ll, from Va

I am,too, of the species Homo Sapiens! (pout)

nebulous safety

No terrorist attacks on US soil after our military response and anti-terror efforts doesn’t sound “nebulous”. 

US safety would be clearer if we weren’t fighting a compassionate war.  Nevertheless, we are clearly safer.

Thanks, Rob, for logging me in, Maggie is ok, too.
In response to HG: “tax cuts lead to 6+ mil new jobs”
Meantime, corporate profits rise, wages lag behind. What good is a job you can’t survive on? A more equitable division of the spoils would be nice, say a couple of bucks raise in minimun wage, denied by a congress giving itself regular pay boosts at the public trough,

“4.6% record low employment” You got me there, nothing bad to be said about that, except that it would be interesting to see a break down of these new jobs and how much they pay? Whether families can survive on them or have to work two of them. Also would like to know why congress and the President are not showing a whole lot of concern about the outsoursing of so many jobs or attempting to stem the flow.

“Interest rates remain low” I’m over my head in the nuts and bolts of economics, but doesn’t it stand to reason that that will remain the case as long as we boost big business at the expense of workers? What makes interest rates go up? I’m always glad to learn something.

“Real Estate !!Boom!!” Real Estate !!Burst Bubble!! or at least a growing leak.

“Record home ownership (minorities included” Who profits when they can’t hold on to them, lose equity because of rapidly declining prices? At the moment, school teachers, cops, fireman can’t afford to rent, let alone buy a house in Richmond on their present salaries. Affordable housing has become a major problem that’s going to require some innovative ideas to solve. Check with Mr. Hinkle on this one.

“And now lowering energy costs” That’s about to change--again, as Saudi Arabia cuts production. I’ll concede credit to President Bush in wanting to establish alternative energy sources, tho he isn’t getting much cooperation.

He hasn’t weathered all these things yet. Just look at that aproval rating! The damage is not repairable and there will be a Democratic take-over in Nov. and another of the White House in 2008. You heard it here.

Now, shall we discuss record pork from the party of “limited government”? Budget dificit in the trillions and those dirty words,balanced budget, not coming out of anyones mouth?  Trade deficit of monsterous proportions? Mismanaged war, corruption in reconstruction,miscalculation in the basic nature of the Iraqie people? Attempting to destroy or dismantle every social program with no regard for the people unable to insure their own survival? Hypocritical claims of religious moral superiority while he surrounds himself with bloodless sharks? Ect. endlessly.

Mr. Whistler, it is not civilized to hate anyone, and people in the South will even tell you it’s bad manners. Our government thrives best among diverse opinions, passionate beliefs, all thrashed out untill we arrive at the best possible result. What sense would it make to want to surpress that process with hatred? It’s regretable that President Bush is such a disappointment, but you sure do have to admire his bull-headedness, don’t you? Nevertheless, it will be an enormous relief, I suspect to a great many Republicans as well, when he finally leaves office.

Our national soul just got sold down the river with the suspension of habeas corpus. The price is too high when we try to immulate our dishonorable enemys in order to feel a little safer. That stain on our honor is going to grow. you can’t put the genie back in the bottle when it becomes acceptable to dispense with our own principles. The end does notjustify the means, nor will it ever.

Thanks, Rob, for logging me in, Maggie is ok, too.

No problem Maggie.  If you have any other problems just let me know.

And think about getting yourself an avatar.  You can upload them by clicking on the “profile” link in the header.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

This is my first computer and I don’t know how to use it yet. How does one go about acquiring an avatar? I went to edit profile, but it does not specify where one is available. Could I somehow get something off the my expressions thing on the email form on aol?

Oh, gosh, I did it. This is my husband from younger years!

I’d point out that the word you’re looking for is fought, not thought.  Then I would ask, if all supporters of the Military Commissions Act want is for detainees in the war on terror to be treated as though they were detainees of any other war, why it is that those detainees are not being afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions, like detainees of any other war.  Then I would go on to point out that unlike detainees of any other war, there is still a question of doubt as to whether or not these prisoners are even involved in the war. 

Furthermore, I would ask you what is wrong with granting these people habeas corpus?  After all, the purpose of a fair trial is not to set a person free, but rather to establish that they are indeed guilty.  I do not know about you, but I would sleep much better knowing that the people my tax dollars are paying to confine, are indeed guilty of a crime other than being at the wrong place, or of the wrong skin color.  We, as Americans, should be above that.

Margie said, Meantime, corporate profits rise, wages lag behind.

Real wages are up.

A more equitable division of the spoils would be nice, say a couple of bucks raise in minimun wage...

That’s not the government’s job, nor is it their business.

Also would like to know why congress and the President are not showing a whole lot of concern about the outsoursing of so many jobs or attempting to stem the flow.

How would he “show concern” about this nonproblem? Would he also have to show this concern about all of the foreign business that has relocated to America? It’s a two way street and nobody complains about the insourcing.

To answer your question, the President can stem the flow by making the business environment more hospitable to business. Things like tax cuts and reductions in regulatory hassle come immediately to mind. Business is out to make money. How about making it easier to make money here in the states?

I’m over my head in the nuts and bolts of economics, but doesn’t it stand to reason that that will remain the case as long as we boost big business at the expense of workers?

What the hell does that even mean? “Boost big business at the expense of workers”? The economy is not a fixed pie.

At the moment, school teachers, cops, fireman can’t afford to rent, let alone buy a house in Richmond on their present salaries.

Where do they live?

Affordable housing has become a major problem that’s going to require some innovative ideas to solve.

How about the free market?

That’s about to change--again, as Saudi Arabia cuts production.

But wait, I thought that Bush was “buddies” with the Saudis.

The damage is not repairable and there will be a Democratic take-over in Nov. and another of the White House in 2008. You heard it here.

Whatever. We heard the same thing in 2002 and 2004. In fact, we hear it every election cycle.

Now, shall we discuss record pork from the party of “limited government”? Budget dificit in the trillions and those dirty words,balanced budget, not coming out of anyones mouth?

Not to excuse the Republicans who are spending like Democrats, but every time there is even a spending increase slowdown, the media and the Dems paint it as a “cut”. How do you even start to balance the budget when dealing with such people?

And to correct you - it’s a budget debt that is in the trillions, not a deficit.

Trade deficit of monsterous proportions?

Does this even matter? If so, how and why?

Mismanaged war, corruption in reconstruction,miscalculation in the basic nature of the Iraqie people?

Every war is mismanaged, has corruption and is miscalculated to some degree or another. If you’re looking for perfection, you’re not going to find it on this planet.

Attempting to destroy or dismantle every social program with no regard for the people unable to insure their own survival?

Now you’re just making shit up.

Hypocritical claims of religious moral superiority while he surrounds himself with bloodless sharks?

He’s in Washington.

Ect. endlessly.

Most of your criticisms make little sense under scrutiny. It does seem endless.

What sense would it make to want to surpress that process with hatred?

Good question. Why don’t you ask your peers? We deal with their hatred day in and day out.

Nevertheless, it will be an enormous relief, I suspect to a great many Republicans as well, when he finally leaves office.

Only if another Republican is assuming office.

Our national soul just got sold down the river with the suspension of habeas corpus.

Do you not read? The “suspension of habeas corpus” is fiction.

The price is too high when we try to immulate our dishonorable enemys in order to feel a little safer.

We’re not even close to emulating our enemies.

you can’t put the genie back in the bottle when it becomes acceptable to dispense with our own principles.

America has suspended habeas corpus before. For real, not this made up suspension fantasy that you’ve bought into. In light of that, I suppose that the genie has always been loose and that you’re just talking for the sake of talking when you make such claims.

The end does notjustify the means, nor will it ever.

There are plenty of times when the ends justifies the means.

Marthie:

Now, shall we discuss record pork from the party of “limited government”? Budget dificit in the trillions and those dirty words,balanced budget, not coming out of anyones mouth?

Likwid:

Not to excuse the Republicans who are spending like Democrats, but every time there is even a spending increase slowdown, the media and the Dems paint it as a “cut”. How do you even start to balance the budget when dealing with such people?

I suppose we are referring to earmarks here… Actually if you look at this type of spending (I mean actually go through and look at the individual bills), most of them make a lot of sense.  And the amount, $20 billion, as Rob has pointed out before, is a tiny fraction of the budget and nothing like the 67% budget breaker that the lib’s favorite entitlement spending is.

In fact, if you look at how the money is allocated (single senator adding a provision to another bill), it is an extension of Republicanism...that is distributed decision making.  The person who knows the most (namely the rep for the region) makes the decision on how the money gets spent.

If you simply removed this mechanism you would end up with the taxpayers being less well served, and a more inefficient national “one shoe fits all” style of solutions to all problems.

So it serves a function, generally is not wasteful, and does not represent a major fraction of spending...where’s the beef?  Perhaps it leads to corruption, but I think it is power itself that is corrupting.  Improving the transparency of the process (as was recently done) may stop a bit of that, but humans are humans, and all have failings.

Muniz, we are fighting with irregulars here, making it more difficult to determine who is a real soldier and who isn’t. (They don’t wear uniforms.) We do the best we can to sort them out, mechanisms are in place to determine who is a POW, who should be charged with criminal acts, and who should be released.

Were we fighting an enemy in uniform, there would be no question.  Under the Geneva Convention, once captured, they are required to give their name, rank and serial number.  This information allows the opposing forces to properly categorize prisoners and POWs (you provide the list to the opposing forces, so they can let kin of MIAs know of the capture rather than death of the soldier).

The terrorists don’t wear uniforms, and in fact do everything they can to disguise their identity.  The onus is on them to act in a humane manner, and when they fail to do so, the blame is upon them, not us. 

We do the best we can with this jumbled up mess created by the illegal tactics of the enemy we are fighting.

You don’t give “habeas corpus” to a POW, because that person is a combatant and presumably is innocent of criminal behavior, and is merely held until it is deemed he is no longer a threat.  You do give habeas corpus to criminals, and we are doing so, once the determination of the criminal nature of an internee is ascertained.

You don’t or shouldn’t complain the US is violating the rights of some innocents caught up in the net… that responsibility lies with al Qaeda and the Taliban.  They are the ones making the determination difficult, and should be blamed for the consequence of the nature of the tactics they use.

corporate profits rise

Margie,
Corporate profits can’t rise if people don’t have the money to buy their products.

say a couple of bucks raise in minimun wage, denied by a congress giving itself regular pay boosts at the public trough,

You know many corporations offer even the minimum wage employees profit sharing in the form of stock. 
Democrats are in the house too. 

At the moment, school teachers, cops, fireman can’t afford to rent, let alone buy a house in Richmond on their present salaries.

There is affordable housing in every city, maybe not in the neighborhood some insist on, but it exists. Housing prices are cyclical, they will be more affordable as wages continue to rise. (which they currently are doing)

He hasn’t weathered all these things yet. Just look at that aproval rating!

Bush is not the subject.  America has weathered all these things under Bush’s Presidency.  His approval record only proves that even when things are as good as they are, the public will believe otherwise if they are told over and over things are bad.

Now, shall we discuss record pork from the party of “limited government”?

I agree spending is too high.  The dems want to spend even more.  Just listen to Pelosi and Reid.  The even want to eliminate the tax cuts that gave us the growth and higher tax receipts.  But your smokin’ somethin’ if you think Dems will spend less the Reps.

At the moment, school teachers, cops, fireman can’t afford to rent, let alone buy a house in Richmond on their present salaries

The people I know in Richmond make decent money, about what I expect a cop or teacher to make: one income.  They’re looking at selling their house and building.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Our national soul just got sold down the river with the suspension of habeas corpus.

Margie,

Habeas corpus wasn’t suspended by Bush.  It was Lincoln who suspended habeas corpus during the civil war. Did Lincoln sell our national soul? Besides, you can’t suspend habeas corpus for terrorists who aren’t extended that right by our Constitution.

Another thing about the deficit I failed to mention.  Has a war ever been waged by the US where we didn’t incur or increase our national debt?

Our national soul just got sold down the river with the suspension of habeas corpus.

What utter nonsense!  No one who enjoyed the right of habeas corpus last month (or last year) has been deprived of that right since.  If there is any recorded documentation that our founding fathers intended that our Constitution’s Bill of Rights should be extended to an enemy combatant captured in Afghanistan I’d be delighted if someone can provide the reference.

Eveyone held in Gitmo had that right.

The hundreds who have been released

apparently were not enemy combatants.

Eveyone held in Gitmo had that right.

Demonstrably false.

The hundreds who have been released

apparently were not enemy combatants.

Also false; they were either determined to no longer be a threat to the US, or we got everything out of them that was possible, which removed them as a threat.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Eveyone held in Gitmo had that right.

Not until the recent SC decision.  And, now they are going to get their day in court instead of the bullet they deserve.  Well, they’ll probably get that too.

So it isn’t suspended, even for terrorists.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them.  Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Kevin Tillman
After Pat’s Birthday

WOOF, how do you “suspend” something (habeas corpus for captured enemy fighters who are not US citizens) that they never had to start with?

Just wondering.

Hurry WOOF! Avoid the question and bring up a non sequitur!

Citizenship is not a requirement for habeus rights.

At least it wasn’t before be.

You suspend habeus by keeping people inncommunicado in secret prisons.

Captured goatheards seem more prevalent than enemy fighters.

Wow! What a reaction! I feel like Daniel in the lion’s den, but I will struggle on against my better judgement.

President Bush just signed a bill denying habeas corpus to anyone labeled an “enemy combatant” or anyone thought to be giving material support to terrorists. Not someone convicted or proven , someone suspected. Doesn’t that bother anyones sense justice or morallity? Doesn’t that make us no better than our enemy, betray what we are? They don’t have to defeat us. We are willingly relinquishing our own princples, through the Patriot Act, illegal wire tapping, rendition and now this unbelievable stab into the heart of Uncle Sam. All for a saftey that can not be achieved from terrorist tactics. If this trend continues, there won’t be much left in our country worth saving or fighting for. The essence of us will be gone. We are responsible for our own actions and decisions,Mr. Carrick. The devil made me do it is not an acceptable excuse.  As for the cynical, mocking, disdainful,likwidshoe, I will give his diatribe the respect it is due with only a few sentences: boosting big business, in part means allowing them to pay an unfair wage to workers earning those profits for them by refusing to boost the federal minimun wage even marginally. Who knows, a more equitable division of the spoils might raise sales and keep their profit margins at their obcene levels, allowing for more millions in CEO salarys and retirement benefits, all too often denied workers who are the backbone of the company, and without whom, there would be no money. H.G, last I read, wages even for the middle class let alone the poor were lagging way behind corporate profits and the distance between the classes was widening. If you have heard or read otherwise, I would be interested in seeing your sources. As for housing, a recent Public Square meeting, sponsored by the Richmond Times Dispatch spotlighted the appalling lack of affordable housing in this area. I may be wrong, but seems like only one third of the population could afford a two-bedroom apartment on present salaries and average rent in the area. This was based on using one third of your salary for rent and utilities. Yep, they live here allright, but struggle with a disproportionate share of income going to morgages and rent.

It’s just so much eaiser to append constituent pleasing bridges-to-nowhere or thier equivelents to major bills that have to be passed. How many weary legislators just let it go rather than hold up that bill and fighting it, how much is reciprocal hand-washing? There must be a better way.

Well, I guess President Bush and his intelligence agents get to decide what is acceptable treatment of these possibly innocent people in detention. I hope our national concience can live with it. No, actually, I don’t.

Hey, ya’ll, if this liberal is not welcome and considered a troll on this web-site, please let me know. I think I can take it and go away. If not, this is fun and thanks for the conversation.

Citizenship is not a requirement for habeus rights.

At least it wasn’t before be.

And yet, the courts have never before accepted habeas filings from foreign war detainees.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

margie:  This site is open to liberals, but be prepared to debate.

If you debate politely you generally will be responded in kind.  People that throw out wild accusations and insults aren’t normally treated that well.

I for one welcome an honest debater as it sharpens my wit. 

Most liberal sites aren’t welcoming to conservatives BTW, but the proprietor of this blog (Rob) isn’t like that.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

I’m not too sure you would get the chance to prove your citizenship if you were inadvertenly caught up in a Homeland Security sweep.To echo Mr. Hinkle on Barticles, it would be pretty naive to trust people with that much power and not be sure they wouldn’t abuse it. Checks and balances are an interagal part of our system. Should this vital part not have them, too?

Margie: As far as checks and balances are concerned, this is a check on the murdering terrorists who would destroy our country, and a balance to the lefties in the MSM who do propaganda work for the terrorists.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

You are a trusting soul. The more power the Executive branch aquires, the more uneasy I get, and that would be true whether a Democrat or a Republican with impeccable interity wielded it. Can you say with a straight face that innocent people won’t suffer from long imprisonments? They already have. This is acceptable? If I’m one of the people whose “common good” is being served by this blatant injustice, please don’t try to keep me safe. I’ll take my chances with more honorable methods.

Can you say with a straight face that innocent people won’t suffer from long imprisonments? They already have.

Can you back this up with any facts?  I don’t mind you choosing a dangerous way of life by appeasing the murdering terrorists, but just do it somewhere away from my country, please, so you don’t endanger the rest of us.  You are truly a selfish person.  You make up paranoid fantasies, and then want the rest of us to put our heads on the chopping block to assuage your fears of persecution.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Fantasies? Please take a minute to log on to timesdispatch.com and read the blog, “Thanks for the sparring match” and links included. Keep in mind that the arthor is a Republican editor at a Republican newspaper.

As for the rest of your comment, I don’t believe appeasment ever does anything but weaken your own position. If I had my way, we would reinstitute the draft for 18 year olds, inundate Iraq with so many American soldiers that there wouldn’t be a square foot available to plant a bomb in, establish order for the present government, do what we could to insure their ability to keep it, rebuild what we could of the infrastructure, then get the heck out and back to our own business. I belive in finishing what you start, not betraying allies and leaving them to sink or swimn. Vietnam still smarts and makes me ashamed for us. I am not a pacifist, nor have I ever been. I was waving that flag as enthusiastically as you when that dictator poked his head out. It’s a matter of national honor to finish this, but if we don’t use honorable tactics, it would be a hollow victory indeed.

Margie: Your partisan way of thinking is tiresome.  Anyone who shares your paranoid fantasies is also paranoid, no matter what political party they claim to favor.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

I may be wrong, but seems like only one third of the population could afford a two-bedroom apartment on present salaries and average rent in the area. This was based on using one third of your salary for rent and utilities. Yep, they live here allright, but struggle with a disproportionate share of income going to morgages and rent.

Yap, you’re wrong.

If you can’t make it, move.  When enough people do, the prices will have to drop or the housing will sit empty.  Supply and demand Margie, it works every time.  Or, you could just regulate and legislate the hell out of peoples incomes and lives; that’s the dems solution to everything.

Margie: A few points of reality.  The devastation and slaughter in Vietnam was perpetrated by the commies, before, during and after we were there.  Finishing the job in Iraq requires that we also depose the totalitarians in Iran, and also help those people to have participation in their own govt.  The only honorable tactic in war is to win.  “Losing with honor” is bullshit.  Very French, though.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Whoa! You would attack Iran after the morass in Iraq? Who’s living in a fantasy land now? Have you forgotten the fanatical mind-set of muslims reared in a theocracy? You think they are just waiting for us to convert their country into some kind of democratic Shangrila? (Sp?)A utopian democratic Mid-East is never going to happen. It makes me angry when I read a suggestion that we should include Syria and Iran, as close neighbors, in any solution for Iraq, but what you suggest would stir up a hornets nest in the entire Muslim world, sparking an explosion of those terrorist attacks you fear so much that you are willing to dispense with national decency in order to possibly protect ourselves against them. There is no protection against that kind of dirty fighting.

There is no protection against that kind of dirty fighting.

Margie,

Spoken like a true turn-tail democrat.

You can only pretend to get along with Islamo-fascists for so long; then they will attack you.  When Iran thinks they will give it a try, we’ll have to fight Syria and every other ally of Isalmo-fascists.

Whoa! You would attack Iran after the morass in Iraq?

We didn’t attack Iraq; we deposed a murdering dictator.  We need to do the same thing in Iran.  That will even things out.

Who’s living in a fantasy land now? Have you forgotten the fanatical mind-set of muslims reared in a theocracy? You think they are just waiting for us to convert their country into some kind of democratic Shangrila?

Your fantasy, not mine.  What I said was that the people of both countries would be able to participate in their govt.  What part of that don’t you understand?

(Sp?)A utopian democratic Mid-East is never going to happen.

Karl Marx believed in utopia; I don’t.  I already said what I said.

It makes me angry when I read a suggestion that we should include Syria and Iran, as close neighbors, in any solution for Iraq, but what you suggest would stir up a hornets nest in the entire Muslim world, sparking an explosion of those terrorist attacks you fear so much that you are willing to dispense with national decency in order to possibly protect ourselves against them. There is no protection against that kind of dirty fighting.

It didn’t happen when we deposed Saddam, so why do you think it will happen when we depose Mahmoud?  You included Syria; I didn’t.  I’m not responsible for what you make up; only what I actually wrote.  I don’t fear the terrorists like you do.  To quote Jesse Ventura in Predator: “If it bleeds, we can kill it.” The terrorists are willing to die; I suggest we oblige them.  They have no place in a civilized world.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Margie: You lefties crack me up.  You squeal about “habeas corpus” and “civil rights”, but you won’t defend the country and govt that guarantees them for all its citizens.  You are so afraid of the terrorists you will appease them, but you spew hate at your own President.  Crazy values.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

WOOF:

Citizenship is not a requirement for habeus rights.

You need to read what I said:

WOOF, how do you “suspend” something (habeas corpus for captured enemy fighters who are not US citizens) that they never had to start with?

Habeas corpus applies to aliens who have broken the law.  If you are a “captured enemy fighter” and “not [a] US citizen” you have no habeas corpus rights in this country, and never had.

As I pointed out above, the situation gets a bit murky because the terrorists refuse to engage lawfully in their resistance.  As a result innocent people likely get hurt.  But guess what, probably not as many as routinely get murdered by the terrorists on a nearly daily basis.

Habeas applies to persons detained, innocent and guilty.

Those detained are not all captured enemy fighters or even captured by us.

It didn’t happen when we deposed Saddam

It didn’t?!?!  Are you trying to say with a straight face that Al Qaeda was in Iraq before we went in there?  What, was it a ‘breeding ground for terrorists’ five years ago?  It is now.  That’s exactly what happened when we deposed Saddam.

Margie: You lefties crack me up.  You squeal about “habeas corpus” and “civil rights”, but you won’t defend the country and govt that guarantees them for all its citizens.  You are so afraid of the terrorists you will appease them, but you spew hate at your own President.  Crazy values.

That’s right.  There are no “lefties” in the military.  None.  I am not, in fact, sitting in a makeshift supply office in the middle of Iraq at this very moment.  I do not know, all too well, that last night was the most holy night of Ramandan.  I did not have to sleep in an elevated uniform code because of that.  Oh, wait a second, yes I did. 

There are “lefties” willing to die and fight for your right to evoke our name in your petty arguments.  I would die gladly so that you could do it.  However, I do not, for one second, believe that that right is in jeapordy.  Please don’t preach as though people like Margie are just willing to throw away their rights or not properly respect those rights.  Didn’t this whole argument start with some rights being taken away?  It seems to me that people like Margie are fighting to keep those rights from being taken away. 

If you debate politely you generally will be responded in kind.  People that throw out wild accusations and insults aren’t normally treated that well.

Apparently throwing insults out from the right, however, is tolerated.