Say Anything Blog

Apples and mangoes.
You can’t compare average and median.
You can’t compare average +benefits
to median without benefits.

You need to understand the difference between, the mean
(average) and the median.
Statistics for Journalists

Apples and mangoes.
You can’t compare average and median.
You can’t compare average +benefits
to median without benefits.

You need to understand the difference between, the mean

Best numbers available, Poodle, but your spin is still hilarious.  I mean, we’re talking about one average teacher making more than the median household.

The comparison speaks volumes, imperfect as it is.

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The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Just updated the post with average yearly income for North Dakotans.  It’s $31,000, as compared to over $50k’s in compensation for the average teacher.  $42,000 in salary alone.

So...what was your point again Poodle?

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The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Yeah but teachers get summers off.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Yeah but teachers get summers off.

LOL… the summer thing really bothers you doesn’t it?

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Actually, to be fair, you should comparee Minot teacher salaries to the income of the residents of that district.  Geography can make a huge difference in both of those numbers.

For instance, here in our state, the northwest part of the state is exploding.  As a result, pay for all jobs is significantly higher in that part of the state (as is the cost of living.) Were you to compare the average teacher salary in of the district’s there to the state average salary, there would be a huge difference.  However, comparing it to jobs in that part of the state, the difference is significantly smaller.

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"Although I can accept talking scarecrows, lions and great wizards in emerald cities, I find it hard to believe there is no paperwork involved when your house lands on a witch.”
- Dave James

Note that would include school children, the retired , the unemployed, etc.

Per capita personal income is total personal income divided by total midyear population

Steve, there is much difference between Minot’s income numbers and the state.  Most of ND’s population is concentrated in the urban areas, so the demographics there outweigh the rural citizens.

From Wikipedia:

The median income for a household in the city was $32,218, and the median income for a family was $42,804.

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The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Of all of the professions which require a college degree - and in many states a fifth for a Master’s - teachers are the lowest paid.

Add to that, the fact that large numbers of young teachers leave college with huge student loans to pay off, and most teachers must contribute a portion of their salary to their health benefits.

BTW:  Rob’s figure of 50K for teachers in ND overlooks a depressing point; the average national starting salary for a teacher is around $28,900. Reaching $50,000 can take 8 to 10 years.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Note that would include school children, the retired , the unemployed, etc.

Which is why the median number is better.  It counts just households with income, which is a better measure.  And the average teacher in ND is making more than the median househould.

That’s significant.

But the spinning never stops, does it Poodle?  Rather than admit the truth, you liberals obfuscate.

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The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Just updated the post with average yearly income for North Dakotans.  It’s $31,000, as compared to over $50k’s in compensation for the average teacher.  $42,000 in salary alone.

Well, it could be just me, but I thought the point was that comparing average salary + benifits to average salary was to say the least...misleading.  To say the most, a gross over-exageration.  Thank you for making the adjustment somewhat, comparing average salary of $42,000 to average state salary of $31,000.  Now my question is, how does this average teacher salary of 42K, or if you want to include the bennies, $52 K, compare to that in North Dakota with a comparable education?

Reaching $50,000 can take 8 to 10 years.

So, Nobody starts at the top.  For a college graduate starting out in Grand Forks Teaching is one of the highest paid jobs they can get.

LOL… the summer thing really bothers you doesn’t it?

No, but if you’re comparing with people that work year ‘round you have to adjust the salaries.  I think the ND teachers are paid for 188 days which is about 3/4’s of a year ‘round worker. 

So that teaching job making $50k would compare with a private sector job at $66,667 annually.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Yeah but teachers get summers off.

They get more than just summers off. They are working part time for more than full time compensation and retire with COLA’d pensions in their fifties, in many cases!
In addition, true professionals don’t have a need for membership in labor collectives.

Kevin:  If teachers were treated like professionals, they wouldn’t need a “labor collective”

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Of all of the professions which require a college degree - and in many states a fifth for a Master’s - teachers are the lowest paid.

Absolutely and completely wrong.  Rob covered one study here. 

I covered another study here.

Nationwide teachers are quite well paid. 

Add to that, the fact that large numbers of young teachers leave college with huge student loans to pay off, and most teachers must contribute a portion of their salary to their health benefits.

Wow, Really?  That’s Shocking!

I’m really really really glad that people in the private sector don’t have school loans when they graduate and take jobs that pay less.  And I’m really glad that nobody in the private sector actually has to help pay for their health insurance. 

Since you aren’t always quick on the uptake PP, that was sarcasm.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Kevin:  If teachers were treated like professionals, they wouldn’t need a “labor collective”

Professionals go out in the market and prove/earn their worth, often on a daily basis.

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Well, Whistler, when an engineer gets his 4-year degree, he starts at around $75,000.  When a computer engineer graduates, he starts at around $65,000.  A doctor, lawyer or dentist can expect to start at around $90,000.  All will move swiftly up from there. 

None of them takes home 2 - 3 hours of student work to correct each night or has to deal with protected disruptive students and rude, hostile ‘parents’.

Your right, I’m not always quick on the uptake. But I do try to stick to the facts.  What’s your excuse?

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

None of them takes home 2 - 3 hours of student work to correct each night or has to deal with protected disruptive students and rude, hostile ‘parents’.

Weird, teachers have the only jobs that are hard sometimes and the only ones that ever take work home with them. 

As it turns out most people in the teaching profession are not cut out for (and I am not either) being a Doctor.  Very few are.

Why do teachers overcompare themselves rather than comparing with other jobs that are actually a possibility for their talents?

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Finally since we are talking about Minot North Dakota why don’t we compare with the job market in that town rather than being a computer-electrical-engineer-doctor in New York.

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Whistler: 

Why do teachers overcompare...?

Duh!  Because they are required to complete a 4 year degree and, in many cases, a 5 year degree just like any other profession. 

A university education doesn’t cost any less for an educator than it does for an engineer, but the life-time incomes are much lower.

Your bias is obvious and I’m tired of responding to your tripe.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Being an Engineer is more than just wearing those striped gray coveralls.  You have to go into high level maths.  Most teachers aren’t ready to do that.

Face it teachers have the best job they can get.  They are well paid.  They should drop the histrionics and admit it. 

I’m tired of responding to your tripe.

Tripe?  Can’t argue with the facts can you?

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I want to know what teachers and the public education system did to Whistler...it seems they are always a thorn in his side.

Not to be critical, but I believe the 188 days Whistler quoted is around the minimum length, but is not standard. A lot of districts contract the teachers for more.  Not that a few more days makes that big of difference.

Rally I wasn’t aware of that.  I got the 188 days from the GF base pay calculation. 

That’s the one I’ve studied the most for obvious reasons.

I don’t have anything against teachers in general (although I wish they’d quit sending so much homework home with the kids.) However I think they are well paid, and the evidence bears that out. 

I guess I do have problems with the teachers that whine about the good thing they have going.

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I think they are well paid and the evidence bears that out.

What a sad, sad joke.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

I provided two studies that showed that. 

But tell you what if you think you’re underpaid the school years almost over.  Go take the Engineering job you’ve been pining over. 

If not engineering go take that job that pays better.

Let me know how it works out for you.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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COLA’d pensions in their fifties, in many cases!

This is not true any longer

in many cases, a 5 year degree just like any other profession.

This is a requirement for all teachers

Professionals go out in the market and prove/earn their worth, often on a daily basis.

Are you suggesting teachers are not professionals?

Your [The Whistler] bias is obvious

I have to agree and it seems quite disrespectful to the many excellent teachers who blog here

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I want to know what teachers and the public education system did to Whistler...it seems they are always a thorn in his side.

The problem I have with the public education system is that it costs me and my fellow taxpayers a ton of money for doing a mediocre job.

And I’m tired of the lies about teacher pay.  People (see: Pparets) try to emotionalize it, but looking at it objectively teaching jobs are among the most well-compensated in any community.

Only people who stand to gain from saying so (teachers and their unions) say otherwise.  And I think it’s pretty obvious now that Pparets is/was a teacher.  Or is related closely to one.

After all, we all tend to think we deserve a raise.

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The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Are you suggesting teachers are not professionals?

When I think of professionals I think of Doctors and Lawyers.  Clearly the teaching profession is not comparable with that. 

Lawyers are out proving themselves on a daily basis, not on a tenured job.

Who do you compare teachers with.  Compare the working environment/hours etc to the teaching jobs.  In fact the study I linked to did just that:

Using data on household median earnings from the U.S. Department of Labor, I compared teachers with seven other professional occupations: accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, social workers, lawyers and judges, artists, and editors and reporters. Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachers—as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.

I have to laugh when we’re told that sometime teachers have to bring work home.  Like other people in similar jobs don’t?

The solution is to break up the school systems.  Privatized schools will establish a market rather then the government monopoly we know have.

But I guess it’s just easier to say I don’t have teachers and not listen to an uncomfortable argument.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Well, I might be slow, because I can’t quite figure this one out....

Finally since we are talking about Minot North Dakota

reconciled with this later quote of:

Lawyers are out proving themselves on a daily basis, not on a tenured job.

leads me to ask about the focus here. Are we talking North Dakota teachers, or in general, because there is not a tenured teacher in this state.

That was my point is that you can’t compare teaching jobs with jobs that don’t compare with it.  I guess I should have been clearer.

So when PParents was comparing teaching with being a Doctor it was wrong.

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leads me to ask about the focus here. Are we talking North Dakota teachers, or in general, because there is [sic] not a tenured teacher in this state.

Well while it may not qualify as tenure, it’s certainly harder to fire a teacher than it is to fire a worker in the private sector in terms of rules and regulations.  And that’s a big, big problem with public schools.

Big school systems, like New York for instance, have entire buildings full of “rubber rooms” where poor teachers who can’t be fired thanks to their unions go to sit all day and collect a paycheck.

I have no problem paying what it takes to attract good, qualified teachers.  I also have no problem with recognizing that it probably takes a bit more money to attract teachers to our more rural schools than the more urban ones.

But be that as it may, teacher pay should be driven by the job market and not by emotional “more is never enough” pleas from teachers, politicians and unions.

We are spending somewhere around $12,000 per student in North Dakota.  That’s $240,000 per classroom of 20 kids every single year.

I’d like to know why that’s not enough to educate our children.

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The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Yes, there are some incompetent teachers, but that doesn’t mean all teachers are.
Regardless of a public or a private sector… just as in any “profession”, there are the bad and the good.
I no longer believe in the public school system and I have zero confidence in it today. (which, is why I’m no longer associated with it)
There are thousands of overworked and excellent teachers out there in the public schools that are just as frustrated as we are about the current situations.
Damning all teachers for your dissatisfaction of the system doesn’t debate the situation at all.

BTW Whistler ... do you, by any chance, happen to be a proffesional of some sort?

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Specifically that lawyer reference was my answer to Anna asking if I didn’t consider teachers “professionals.” I guess that’s a word that means different things to different people. 

I consider doctors and lawyers to be professionals.  Although I have a good job, I don’t consider myself to be one.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Cry me a river.

SECTION 2. AMENDMENT. If House Bill No. 1034 does not become effective, section
15-47-33 of the 1997 Supplement to the North Dakota Century Code is amended and reenacted as
follows:
15-47-33. Length of elementary and secondary school year term.
1.
All elementary and secondary schools in this state shall provide for a school term of at
least one hundred eighty days apportioned as follows:
a.
One hundred seventy-three full days of instruction;

http://tinyurl.com/4k4ytm

Kevin they are also paid, correctly so, for some days preparing and in service days.  Fair enough

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Have you ever been to an “in service day” or “North Dakota education association instructional conference?”
Think “party central.”

With my mouth, I’d get killed.  Stabbed to death with those blunt end scissors no doubt.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Well, Whistler, when an engineer gets his 4-year degree, he starts at around $75,000.  When a computer engineer graduates, he starts at around $65,000.  A doctor, lawyer or dentist can expect to start at around $90,000.  All will move swiftly up from there.

Lawyers work with getting people large amounts of money, OR keeping them out of jail. Both are worth quite a bit of money and they get compensated as such. Bad lawyers tend to go away. Or they work for tiny firms where they get paid crap.\

Doctors have the most stressful jobs in the country.  They literally have life in their hand. If they aren’t up to snuff, people can die, on even the most routine procedures.

Engineers design cars, computers, etc. Depending on the field they work in, again, people can die. If a car is designed wrong, people can die. If a rocket is designed wrong, it explodes. If a program is done wrong, money can be lost hand over fist.

If a teacher does poorly....the kid can be held back a grade and they can try again. There’s simply no comparison.

None of them takes home 2 - 3 hours of student work to correct each night or has to deal with protected disruptive students and rude, hostile ‘parents’.

As a wedding DJ, for each show I get, I have usually an hour of checking the paperwork I get to try and get an idea of what they want before I meet them. Then I meet with the client for between 1-3 hours. Then I have to call the photographer, videographer, minister, hall, etc, so we’re all on the same page. The average “homework” time for each show for me is 3-5 hours. During the summer, when I can have as many as 5 parties a week, I have more homework time than teachers have work time during the year. Often times, my brides or grooms call me repeatedly cause theyre nervous and I have to calm them down. Sometimes a single party can have 10 or more hours of prep time. (This is all being worked around a second job btw).

And that night I also have to deal with mean spirited party goers. And if I don’t bring my A game every night to throw a kickass party, I can lose my bonus that quarter (which is earned anyways), and lose money from my paycheck.

HOLY CRAP! I deserve health insurance, pension, et. al. Where’s my sympathy?

Duh!  Because they are required to complete a 4 year degree and, in many cases, a 5 year degree just like any other profession. 

A university education doesn’t cost any less for an educator than it does for an engineer, but the life-time incomes are much lower.

Most jobs nowadays require a degree. In Kansas, they’re starting to require 4 year degrees for even their secretaries.

Regardless, engineering degrees do indeed cost more than education degrees. Engineering degrees require lab classes (always more expensive), buying supplies for school, more in class hours, more homework hours, etc.

So the engineer does more work and pays more money for their degree...to get a job where they do more work and spend more time. Yet we’re complaining they make more money. How dumb.

leads me to ask about the focus here. Are we talking North Dakota teachers, or in general, because there is [sic] not a tenured teacher in this state.

All right, I understand I got all uppity about another members use of pronouns and probably have this coming, but after re-reading my quote, my subject and my predicate appear to be matching, so I’m wondering why it’s being called into question...but I don’t want to distract from the main gist of this thread.  Personally, I’d like to kill two birds with one stone: Falling student achievement and what I perceive to be some people’s outrage at the 180 day work year by making the school year longer.  It’s embarrassing that we have one of the shortest school years of any industrialized nation.

I refuse to judge a profession on the hours they get paid to work. Nor, will I judge a profession on the amount they get paid.
Until, I can personally, experience it first hand, I have no right to disrespect it.
Perhaps, some of you should do the same?

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Rob:

We are spending somewhere around $12,000per student in North Dakota. That’s $240,000 per classroom…

You are an intelligent blog-master, but you are woefully ignorant about school financing. 

The $12,000 per student in ND pays for classroom teachers, textbooks, computers, phones, fax and internet provider, principal, assistant principal, secretary, clerk, school nurse, librarian, library materials, bus transportation, bus fuel, utilities, insurance, superintendant and his/her staff, custodians, building maintenance and repair, and heating/cooling.

I don’t need to tell you what is happening to school budgets in ND and across the nation where unanticipated soaring bus fuel costs are concerned. And, heating costs alone in ND must be astronomical and rising out of sight!

Your cheap-shots at me because you think I must be an educator are beneath your usual objectivity. Are you implying that my points are invalid simply because I might be a teacher? 

Do you apply that same principle to veterans, clergy, lawyers, businessmen, housewives, students and retirees on SAB?

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

I thought people were in the teaching racket for self-fulfillment, not for the money.

Yeah, like investment bankers are into their scam for the love of free-market capitalism.  Grow up.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Who do you think runs the multi-billion dollar union teacher pensions?

Once again you have it wrong PParents.  North Dakota state has been (just recently) a LOT more money to education.  Prior to that the school systems were raising property taxes at a rate three times the rate of inflation. 

After they got a ton more money they still raised taxation at around 7% last year.

At the same time enrollment is down very significantly.  I think Grand Forks is down nearly 20% in the last ten years.  (The figures are on my other computer.)

So you have skyrocketing revenues while the teachers have less kids to teach.

Now a big part of the problem is the administration is sucking up a ton of the money.  There’s a post on SayAnything here relating to a release by the Americans for Prosperity where a large chunk of the increased spending is going for admin.  (I can’t find it right now and it’s been a long day.) It’s not all happening in the classroom.

But once again you are wrong with your facts.  North Dakota spending on Education is going up fast, much much faster yet when you consider it per pupil.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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I don’t need to tell you what is happening to school budgets in ND and across the nation where unanticipated soaring bus fuel costs are concerned. And, heating costs alone in ND must be astronomical and rising out of sight!

Turns out that’s happening to every family also.  Can’t wait until the school boards decide rather than roll back on some of their overspending they need to reduce our familys’ budgets by that much more. 

Or were you NOT aware that energy costs are rising in the private sector as well?

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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By the way this website is available to counter that kind of factless rants like PParents are making.  The powers that be in the school industry issue a press release that they are greatly underfunded and the press runs it without any facts or figures.  (At least around here you have to dig up financial information yourself from state reports because the school system isn’t talking.)

Publicly available information is the demagogues’ enemy. 

I refuse to judge a profession on the hours they get paid to work. Nor, will I judge a profession on the amount they get paid.
Until, I can personally, experience it first hand, I have no right to disrespect it.
Perhaps, some of you should do the same?

First of all I haven’t disrepsected the profession in general.  There are good teachers and bad.  However they are well paid and they should be happy with it.

But since you bring it up I am very underpaid and I think you should send me $80,000 more on my say so.

(actually I’m not, I make pretty good money, but for most of my career I would have made more money in teaching in Grand Forks.  The difference is I had a realistic idea of what jobs were worth.)

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Do you apply that same principle to veterans, clergy, lawyers, businessmen, housewives, students and retirees on SAB?

If they were making such blather about their profession, well, yea.

Whistler; You must really be tired.  I’m not ‘wrong’ about school spending or tax increases in North Dakota because I have never commented on them.

So, Kenny, if a military man comments on the military, or a lawyer comments on the law, or a housewife comments on the family, they should be criticized for doing so?

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

The $12,000 per student in ND pays for classroom teachers, textbooks, computers, phones, fax and internet provider, principal, assistant principal, secretary, clerk, school nurse, librarian, library materials, bus transportation, bus fuel, utilities, insurance, superintendant and his/her staff, custodians, building maintenance and repair, and heating/cooling.

I don’t need to tell you what is happening to school budgets in ND and across the nation where unanticipated soaring bus fuel costs are concerned. And, heating costs alone in ND must be astronomical and rising out of sight!

Nearly a quarter of a million dollars, Pparets.  Per classroom.

I understand the expenses associated with education, but you’re really going to tell me that a quarter of a million dollars per classroom isn’t enough to educate these kids?

C’mon.  Let’s get real.

Your cheap-shots at me because you think I must be an educator are beneath your usual objectivity. Are you implying that my points are invalid simply because I might be a teacher?

I think it’s pretty clear that you are a teacher, and I know this because after years of debating this issue in all sorts of forums I know the only people who display your level of irrationality on the subject are either a) educators and/or their relatives or b) union officials.

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The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

So, Kenny, if a military man comments on the military, or a lawyer comments on the law, or a housewife comments on the family, they should be criticized for doing so?

No one is criticizing you for commenting. We are criticizing you for being irrational and emotional. If a lawyer griped about his long hours, and downplayed a massive salary for what he was doing, yes, we’d probably tell him to stop whining too.

I posted a point by point rebuttal. You ignored it and went on with your hysteria. On several issues you are completely irrational and refuse to debate, instead offering appeals to emotion.

Rob: I have reread this entire thread and I am baffled by the repeated use of words like “emotional” and irrational” by you and others.

Fact:  When compared to all other four-year degree college graduates, teachers are paid the least.

Fact: There is NOT 240,000 per classroom for the education of children. The $12,000 per child does NOT go to the classroom… it goes to the school district and is used to pay for all the things I listed above; most of which are not classroom related.

Fact:  I’m not the only one on this thread who has reacted negatively to your post.

Fact:  You only have to look at my profile to see what I do for a living. I have been open and above board about my background.

Fact:  You have not answered my question about whether other professions and backgrounds here are subject to your condemnation because you don’t like to read what they’re saying.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Fact:  When compared to all other four-year degree college graduates, teachers are paid the least.

Wrong.  I provided two studies showing differently. 

Using data on household median earnings from the U.S. Department of Labor, I compared teachers with seven other professional occupations: accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, social workers, lawyers and judges, artists, and editors and reporters. Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachers—as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.

Teachers are well paid.  If teachers could make more money in the private sector they’d be leaving for those jobs.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Whistler:  Many do.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Most don’t.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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whistler: wrong again.

http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin/admin155shtml

or, google ‘teacher shortage’ on your own. It’s easy. You might learn something.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Most don’t:

Twenty percent of new teachers leave within the first three years; most likely to leave are those with the highest college-entrance exam scores. A whopping 49 percent of those who leave do so because of job dissatisfaction or to pursue another career.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Whistler:  Thanks for making my point for me!

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

I’m fascinated that people try out a career and decide it’s not right for them.  What really really surprises me is that they decide to do something that is right for them.

I guess that just must be a teacher specific thing because I’ve never ever heard of that happening anywhere else.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Well, regardless of speculations, the teacher-drain is bad for the nation’s children.  Most HS graduates are no longer opting for teacher degrees… they cite low pay, lack of respect from the community, and tough working conditions.

Hope I don’t sound too emotional or irrational.

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

I guess you shouldn’t be spending all of your time repeating falsehoods that teachers are underpaid.

Aside from that kids probably know what teaching jobs are roughly like.  However they probably don’t realize that jobs in the real world are actually difficult.

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The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

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Aside from that kids probably know what teaching jobs are roughly like.

They are like school, the same thing they’ve done for most of their lives, only they get paid and get to assign homework instead of having to do it.

lack of respect from the community

Not in North Dakota; the education cabal is treated like a sacred cow and taxpayers are treated like the golden goose!

Kevin:  Really!!??  What’s wrong with you folks out there?

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"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Too many slackers, not enough productive people.

ahhhh, to hell with the teachers, their unions, and their constant whining and complaining about how underpaid they are...They should just get paid like a baby-sitter, 3 bucks an hour, no benefits, and only paid for the time they are actually ‘working’, 6 1/2 hours a day.  Now multiply that 3 bucks times the twenty kids in the room times that shameful 173 contact days and....whooops, never mind....