Says a lot about what Dems think of their base, that they are stupid enough to be fooled by something like this, huh?

You posted the flyer with comment. The title of your post is a clear implication of Republicans.

As for accusations of DNC voter fraud, I've made none. I've complained about voter registration fraud in general and have called for an end to independent voter registration.

But even if I did, telling me that implicating Republicans with unfounded claims of minority voter intimidation is ok because Republicans accuse Democrats of voter fraud seems like a pretty poor defense.

Just because your opposition does something wrong doesn't mean that you're cleared to do the same wrong.

Okay Rob.
First off, I did not say you were making fun of the issue, I said some of you guys, go read the post at Protein Wisdom.
And as far as proof. How many times have post been made on your Blog and others without proof. Do I need to remind you of the famous CNS story on Proof of WMD's. I have a number of other examples I can pull up.
Lets just say belay the outrage until there is a definative answer. Who else would be distributing these posters… Kerry supporters?

Rob, from the post on my blog in response to your request for proof: "However, when Say Anything says "No need for actual proof," I'm forced to ask for a defition of "proof." The proof left-wing bloggers have provided is that this flyer first popped up on a Sierra Club website. The Sierra Club says Sheila Cochran, from AFL-CIO Voter Protection, brought it to their attention. Of course, anybody can dismiss this proof by saying the Sierra Club and AFL-CIO lean to the left. However, a quick Google search proves that Sheila Cochran is a community activist from Milwaukee, and has been since at least 2002. We're trusting her word on this flyer.

So if anyone on the right has proof that Shelia Cochran is a liar, then let's hear it."

Okay, then we are posting the opinion that we think this is a GOP Ploy to dissenfranchise Black Voters, and the GOP has a history of it. And we are not asking you to buy it. You wouldnt buy it if Cheney and Rove were photographed personaly handing them out. The post was not made by any of us to change Conservative minds, but forgive me for seeing it as hypocritical that you and other other "right-leaning bloggers" can post something like the CNS story, never retract it, and then lecture someone on ethics in posting. Did you retract the story?

Tas, as for your request for proof: The truth of the matter is that I don't have to provide it. I'm not the one making the accusation. Ms. Cochran is making the accusation, lets see her provide some proof to back it up.

Actually Rob, you asked for proof and I provided it. While you have every right to air your opinion and disagree with this story, I think it's a low blow to continue placing the burden of proof on me when I told you who's making the claims and asked if you, or anybody else, could find out if she's a liar. Are there any instances in the past where she has misled the public? Seeing that she's respected enough as a community activist to be appointed to a panel setup by the Governor of Wisconsin, I say the burden of proof is now on your head.

Jeff, who do you think this flyer came from, Kerry supporters? Democrats? ACT? The AFL-CIO?

Do you actually think the Bush supporters who released an intimidation flyer like this are going to come out and say, "Yup, we did it!"

Oh, I got it! Maybe the ACT volunteers should chase down the people handle out these flyers and beat the crap out of them until they admit who their working for! Of course, then we'll hear about violence against Republicans, and blah blah blah…

Please.

These flyers are an anonymous intimidation tactic against black voters, and the author's identity isn't meant to be known. We'll probably never find out who exactly released the flyers. But do you honestly think it was a Democrat? Or ACT? How can you sit there and tell me that the person or group responsibile for these flyers aren't Bush supporters? You keep on griping about how the flyer is so ridiculous that it can't be real, but it is. And there are eyewitness accounts saying that it's being handed on in black Milwaukee neighborhoods. So we've got proof that it's real, and we've got a well respect civil rights activist leading the charge against the flyers.

So please, don't tell me this isn't a hachet job from Bush supporters. And don't call me a child just because I've dug up the evidence you've all asked for, but choose to ignore it.

What about that flyer in Tennessee mocking the special olympian Bush? Apparently some Republicans dumped a few in a trash can by the Democratic offices and surprisingly discovered them there. The accusations flew. Many people are convinced of the push-polling in South Carolina 2000. There doesn't appear to be any audio recordings to serve as evidence, without which many are convinced it never happened. Who knows? Southern Democrat Strom Thurmond died a Republican. Any doubt what Trent Lott's party affiliation would have been in 1960? Or any other of today's Southern Republicans?

the Hitt piece on NPR catalogs just the latest in a long series of slimey GOP strategies to steal votes. It is transcribed at http://moshthevote.com

Whatever. When I go blind, it won't be from hate. I choose masturbation.

You guys can try to justify your little smear on Republicans all you want. Spin, spin, spin. The truth is you have no proof what-so-ever that this flyer came from anyone affiliated with the Republicans. No. Proof. Period.

You've got nothing. You've got a woman in Milwaukee, who is affiliated with an organizaton responsible for some pretty nasty political hijinks this election season, claiming to have found the flyer. No eye-witnesses have come forward claiming that they were given the flyer or even saw anyone giving out the flyer.

I'm sorry, but I am not about to accept this story as true until we get more evidence. When and if we do I will gladly retract my opinions. But I don't think that's going to happen and you all know it.

The truth is we don't know who is responsible for the flyer and its irresponsible to blame Republicans in a knee-jerk reaction to it. I'm not setting up any straw man arguments, I'm just asking for some proof before I make up my mind. I may have my theories, but I'm not going to say that any of them are true until we get some proof.

The GOP in Ohio sent out letters to what were supposed to be the addresses of newly-registered voters. A ton of those letters came back undeliverable.

You're telling me that you wouldn't be suspicious of that were the DNC to do the same thing?

Give me a break.

Oh please. Fliers just like this has been circulating in black, Democratic neighborhoods since I've been alive.

I don't blame the GOP as an organization, but certainly some asshole Southern racist group is responsible. However, the RNC has never acknowledged and denounced this sort of bullshit, for obvious reasons (it's GOOD for them as long as there is plausible deniability), and that — to me — is just as bad.

The same principle applies to gerrymandering Congressional districts to concentrate white power, and creating felon purge-rolls that are wildly inaccurate, or setting up roadblocks to polling places, or having people dress up as police officers to hang out at polling places.

Anyone who defends these actions, or denies that they occur, should be ashamed of themselves.

Rob, those letters were sent registered mail, and had to be picked up at the post office, and clearly state that they were from the republican party. any letter not picked up were considered valid to challenge a voter. Would you go to the post office to pick up a registered letter from the democrats?

When I get registered mail all I get is a notification saying that its at the post office for me to pick up. It doesn't say who its from.

Seth, I did not know you were Black, right on Bro!
Pull my coat tail and tell me what Republicans have done for us, I am going to run out and Blog it.

I live in Milwaukee, and I honestly don't believe the local GOP did this. They're doing other shady things like trying to limit the number of ballots printed (they wanted to print fewer than there were for the 2000 election despite record numbers of new voter registration and unprecedented interest in this election.) But that flier smacks of amateurism.

The question about a flyer like this is, who benefits? If it achieves its intended purpose, which is obviously to intimidate certain people and keep them from voting, who benefits? Where was it distributed? To whom was it directed? And which candidate are the recipients of this flier more likely to vote for?

Whoever did it, I think we can all agree that it's disgusting and outrageous.

So it's irresponsible to blame Republicans for this?

Um, dude. . .

Go to Google, and type in "Occam's Razor."

Apply results to current situation.

Discuss.

tas, you say I'm ignoring proof. Where is it? I'm asking for it. I want to see it. All you've offered is this flyer and the commens of one, partisan-linked woman. That is cleary not enough.

Seth, I did not know you were Black, right on Bro!
Pull my coat tail and tell me what Republicans have done for us, I am going to run out and Blog it.

Okay, besides abolishing slavery, enabling blacks and women to vote, and passing most equality laws, nothing much I guess.

<a>When the war was over the Republicans introduced the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments in an effort to protect black rights, all in the teeth of ferocious opposition from Democrats. That these amendments fell into dormancy after the withdrawal of Northern troops from the South says more about the spirit of the South than is does about Republicans.

But really, it's not so much what they have done for you as what they haven't done against you.

One of the best things about America is the principle that "All men "(meaning humans)" are created equal." The atmosphere of America is one of individual ambition achieves success. Black Democrat leaders, such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, hurt our country by giving people the rhetoric that continues to feed racism. Can any of you sit in your chair and, being TOTALLY HONEST with yourselves, say that if provided the chance, right now, to go back in time and relive your childhood, you would not have done things that would have made you a millionaire by your current age? Invest in Stocks? Learn about certain fields that seemed to be on the verge of a boon? Study more in school? Not get involved in drugs? We have all had this opportunity, we (who are middle class like me) just didn't know enough to do anything with it. We are all given the opportunity to achieve great things as soon as we are born in this country. What we do with this opportunity is done with EACH CHOICE WE MAKE. Everyday, we make choices that affect the rest of our lives. Believing that someone holds you back is a choice, in this country. Believing that you are held back is self defeating. You loose the will to improve yourself when you can blame it on another.

I grew up in New Hampshire. I can honestly say that I never heard a truly racist thing come from anyone while I grew up. I heard ethnic jokes, but they were about all ethnicities. Today I firmly believe that all humans are equal in being. They are not all equal in individualism.

I am not clueless. I do understand that there are some people who would reject another simply because they have a different skin color, but to blame that person for your losses diminishes yourself, reduces your self worth in your minds eye, and that self worth is translated into how you respect others, and ultimately how well you will do in society.

I live in Florida today, it's hard not to notice that the majority of the people wanting handouts appear to be black. And the largest group of those supporting these handouts appear to be black. Take reparations, for instance. I started my adult life in the US with almost nothing. I had some clothes, a car that I lived in, and that was about it. I found a job! I learned a skill! Before age 20, I was educated to an AVERAGE level. When I became an adult, I left my fathers home with nothing. I was given nothing. The car I had, I bought, the clothes I bought. Do I deserve reparations too? Every black today is at least a generation removed from slavery. With the right education from birth, from your parents, not school, would allow you, regardless of race, to succeed. Thinking that you need a handout because of your race is self racism.

I know the statistics that say that there are more black prisoners than white. I know this isn't PC, but couldn't it just be the case that more crime is committed by blacks than whites? It's not about skin color though, it's the mind set instilled in each of us by our parents.

Yes, it is true that the Republicans in Milwaukee have been trying to hold down the number of ballots printed. After the last election, $20,000 worth of unused ballots had to be destroyed. The goal was to hold the run to only two per registered voter rather than the 3 times what is needed that the city wanted. In the rest of the state, one spare ballot for every four voters is all they get.

In the last presidential election, a representative of the DNC was videotaped buying votes, and there were solid reports of repeat voting. The District Attorney refused to even investigate. This time around, he and other city officials are ignoring massive irregularities in the vote generation activities of the "non-partisan" operations bankrolled by an international currency speculator. One of these operations is run by a woman who stepped down from elected office to end inquiries into how she had been elected. Our DA has, however, said that he will prosecute anyone who tests the registration process by making false representation with the intent of exposing potential fraud. This is, please note, a solidly Democrat city administration.

Also note that there is a strong, semi-anonymous, drive in the inner city to lead my neighbors to believe that they need to show up the infamous "them" who are trying to suppress their vote. This bogus flyer may well have been printed by the same people who put a card under my door which begins "They tried to stop us from voting with dogs and fire hoses…" in an attempt to suggest that "they" are still at it.

Personally, I like the idea that someone making an accusation must actually prove their accusation to be true before I have to believe it. You know, that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.

Innocent until proven guilty is the rule in a court of criminal law&mdash;but that's not where we are.&nbsp;We've individual citizens expressing our views on the likely provenance of this flyer.&nbsp;While we should all try to be as fair as possible, we do not need to hold ourselves to the evidentiary standards of a criminal proceeding.

Given other news about Republican malfeasance regarding vote suppression, I think a fair and reasonable standard of proof for this matter should be this: if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck (note the right column in particular), I'm entitled to treat it like a duck&mdash;or in this case, another attempt by the Republicans at preventing people from voting.

While you give the correct definition of a straw man argument, the claim that the flyer is a product of the Republican party&mdash;if you want to attack it on form rather than substance&mdash;might be an example of a conclusion that does not follow from its premises, i.e., a non sequitur, even though the claim is plausible given other facts not in dispute.&nbsp;On the other hand, a straw man argument, to make the definition you've given more precise, is one where you impute to your opponent a position they do not in fact hold, and then attack that position.&nbsp;For example, suppose Smith believes that bloggers who make claims that aren't supported by the links they include&mdash;for example, claiming a link to a an organization that mentions a smear tactic is therefore itself the author of said smear tactic&mdash;are either stupid or dishonest.&nbsp;If Jones were then to say that Smith is an enemy of free speech and go on to enumerate the vices of opposing free speech, then Jones would have constructed a straw man.&nbsp;Smith's position that sloppy bloggers are either stupid or dishonest is therefore not refuted.

Rob:
Is that how you are explaining the NAACP letter and the other documents that have come out in recent days as well. Along with the phone calls to Democratic registered senior citizen voters directing them to the wrong polling place?

No, David, the real strawman is your attempts to associate Republicans with this when the reality of the matter is that the document came from a political operative on the left who has not been clear at all about how she got it.

I think you are missing the point. It is not that black people are that stupid. It is the idiot conservative racist who thinks black people are that stupid and who wrote the document to reflect that, who is STUPID. The real Strawman here is your attempts to dissassociate Republicans from this by claiming it is too stupid to have come from a Republican Group.

kes:

Among the people to be sentenced to death in Texas by a jury of their peers while Bush was Governor of Texas was two of the three perpetrators of the pickup truck lynching. Are you calling for a commutation of their sentences?

That one hundred thousand is not a conservative estimate, it is the mid-range of a SWAG based on misapplied statistical expansion of a non-typical sample. It could also be no more than eight thousand.

Thanks, David for proving my point.

And some say women are the ones to get hysterical.

And OH! I'm so cut to the quick by the label "soccer mom." Heaven's, you're so right… at the hospital while giving birth, us women are required to give up our brains and our rights to have any political thought or engage in debate.

Having a bit of trouble dealing with a woman, David? Hmmmm… I wonder if this is one of the reasons the Left is so enamored of the jihadists.

Sweetcheeks, I work in the judicial arena. Don't try and teach your grandma to suck eggs.

Kes

If California's Prop 66 is passed, can I send these guys to be your neighbors? I mean, seeing as you have such sympathy for poor oppressed criminals and all …

Oooooh, she works in the DA's office, I am impressed now, you might even say I am in awe, as in awe s$%t. LOL! The reality is I could care less about what you do, where you work or what your bonifides are. And as for proving this, do you actually think that anyone is going to prove anything before election day? No…. But we are aware, and that alone is worth much to me.
Actualy I am not too concerned about it one way or the other, becuase all this is doing in firing us up. And that gumby in the white house will be gone in a few days.

David

I'm not your "sister" so do try to stop channeling Han Solo in an effort prove your masculine street creds.

You and others are making a charge that the flyer (A) is not a parody (B) has been distributed by Republicans

The first is opinion, the second has not one shred of direct evidence to support it. No one has identified the mysterious GOP operative that has allegedly distributed whole big bunches of these things .. or maybe it was one of those Rovian Black Helicopters dropping it by the bushelfull during a new moon and using his powerful mindbeams to wipe out the memory of any helicopters in the area..

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Re 3 strikes… I wasn't changing the subject … I know this might be a tad difficult but try and keep up.. you might have seen I was addressing Kes, who was doing a typical Leftist "I love perps, screw the victims they're dead anyway" dance.

David, when you get around to some direct evidence..you know that thing that DA's need before filing charges .. about this icky-poo "Republican" flyer … be sure and let me know, eh?

Until then my co-workers at the District Attorney's office are going to get such a guffaw or two about this latest (akin to CBS Memogate) scam.

Tas

Unless you produce the person who distributed the flyer or the person who created it, you have no direct evidence.

And since you made the charge, it is up to you to prove it.

That's the way the law works. David doesn't buy it, and maybe you don't either.

You could come here and say you have an actual dollar the tooth fairy left under your pillow, but without direct evidence… like tiny tooth fairy fingerprints or dna on the dollar, it is not up to the rest of us to disprove your allegations.

Furthermore, the expectation of some sort of direct connection to the Republicans in a case where it's so tough to find one is absolutely ridiculous, especially given the mountain of evidence pointing to the GOP. Why such standards have to be applied to our side when your side is allowed to tell any unsubstantiated lie they want about John Kerry is, quite frankly, extremely hypocritical.

As I've said before, history and the evidence is on our side. The burden of proof is on your shoulders now.

Ditto, Daivd. I'm done with this, because it's quite obvious that they want to live int heir own little world and ignore anything that proves them wrong.

triticale – your post has no proof and their are factual statements not merely opinions made.

This "prove it" game is too easy to play. It has no rules.

Everybody lives on a set of beliefs. No one can prove God exists either – but it sure changes the reality on the ground.

David / Tas,

Before you go, there is still this little issue about Republicans being the mean nasty hate-monger-ers.

Okay, besides abolishing slavery, enabling blacks and women to vote, and passing most equality laws, nothing much I guess.

Do tell, what Democrats have done for any minority besides implement methods to keep them there?

Or, you could yell "Racist" again, and ignore the question.

At no point in this discussion did you show that this flyer was the work of Republicans. You want to believe that it was Republicans, because you begin your thought process on the premise that all Republicans HATE non-white people. So, of course, it has got to be the nasty Republicans, because everything they do is to keep the little guy on their backs. All they want is oil. George Bush built a time machine and killed off all of the Dinosaurs so he could get the oil in 2004. The Republicans are for Global warming. They want to destroy our world. Genocide is to small a project for the Republicans, they won't stop until the Sun explodes.

Past all of the speculation, is it possible that Republicans are a group of people that identify with the ideals of the individual? Could it be that Republicans adhere to a deeper sense of individual accomplishment and accountability?

Please, do tell me why it is that you feel "Republicans" are the oppressors.

There are individuals in every group, right?

Democrat groups are made up of individuals, right?

Republican groups are made up of individuals, right?

The difference is, Democrats want what is best for the GROUP. Republicans want what is best for the individual.

When your focus is on the Group, some individuals suffer. When your focus is on the individual, everyone benefits. When you focus on groups, some in the group can be lazy. When you focus on the individual, everyone is held accountable.

No, I do not think that all republicans are incorruptible. No human is. But, if your focus is on individuals, it is harder to think in terms of exploitation. Exploiting a group is easy. When your in a group, it's easier to blame others. When you count on individuals, you have an easier time blaming yourself.

Mike,

Au Contraire' – Comair the Candidates