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Tuesday, February 20, 2007


Steve Jobs Worshiping Tech Writer Abandons Him On Union Comments

A few days ago I posted on comments made by Apple CEO Steve Jobs about teachers unions.  Basically, Jobs opined that no amount of technology in the classroom is going to improve America’s education system until public schools are freed from union contracts that prevent them from getting rid of less-than-competent teachers.

His statement, a rather odd one coming from the chief executive of a company that made it’s bones selling computer systems to schools around the nation, has been quoted far and wide since, but probably one of my favorite reactions comes from Matt Buchanan at the usually superb Gizmodo gadget blog, who is a little late to the party given that these comments hit the ‘net three days ago.

Here’s what Buchanan had to say in an article titled “Well, Maybe Steve Jobs Doesn’t Know Everything”:

I don’t necessarily think that selling equipment to schools gives you an inherent knowledge about the way the education system works—which ultimately seems to be Kahney’s point. There’s a lot more behind education problems than teachers’ unions.

What’s interesting about this incident (and reaction to it) is that it pokes a little hole in the mythos that Jobs has managed to craft for himself over the last couple of years—that unerring, uncanny intuition about the way the world works, the secret sauce in the Apple recipe, looks a little less uncanny, less scarily perceptive. The man has emerged from behind the myth, at least for a day.

So, because Jobs dared to challenge a liberal article of faith (unions are good!) he’s suddenly not as smart as everyone previously thought?  That sounds a bit…shrill.  And petty.  Especially from a writer who, apparently, has a lot of respect for Jobs’ intelligence otherwise.  And given the outrageous success of the iPod and the iTunes music store, who doesn’t have a lot of respect for the man?

And what’s this about his 30 years of experience in selling computers to schools not qualifying him to talk about unions?  I think that’s rather qualifying, but even discounting that how about Jobs’ thirty years of experience running a major American corporation?  A job that has undoubtedly called on him to hire and fire thousands?  I think Jobs knows a thing or two about on the job productivity and firing those who don’t produce.  You don’t get to where he’s at without knowing such things.

Personally, I thought Jobs was spot-on in his comments despite Mr. Buchanan’s assertion that there are more problems with our schools than unions.  What Jobs’ complaint about teachers’ unions boiled down to is this: accountability.  Any successful enterprise needs it, but unions hate it because it often costs them dues-paying members.

As an example, look at how teacher unions have opposed school voucher programs here in the U.S.  We often hear about how low the U.S. ends up on international standardized test rankings below countries like Belgium and Sweden.  So what’s the difference between their schools and ours?  It certainly isn’t money.  The U.S. spends more per student on education than any other nation in the world.  And I don’t think anyone would buy into the idea that Belgian or Swedish students and teachers are smarter than their counterparts here in the U.S., so what is it?

It’s school vouchers.  Both of those nations have successful voucher programs that tie education funding to the student instead of the school.  What this does is create competition between schools for students, which in turn leads to administrators and teachers who strive for excellence because, well, their jobs depend on it.

But unions oppose school vouchers, for obvious reasons.  It would mean that bad teachers would have to be fired so that schools could better compete for students, and fewer teachers on the payrolls means fewer dues for the union.

Down in Florida Jeb Bush created a limited vouchers program that allowed the parents of students who attended failing state schools to send their child to any other school of their choice.  The results were amazing, particularly among minority children:

While the percentage of white third-graders reading at or above grade level has increased to 78% from 70% in 2001, the percentage among Hispanic third-graders has climbed from 46% to 61%, and among blacks from 36% to 52%. Graduation rates for Hispanic students have increased from 52.8% before the program started to 64% today; and for black students from 48.7% to 57.3%. Minority schoolchildren are not making such academic strides anywhere else.

Unfortunately, even this limited voucher program drew the ire of teachers unions and, ironically, minority advocacy groups.  The program was ended by a lawsuit from the teachers’ union and said minority groups.

So when Mr. Buchanan says that unions aren’t the biggest problem with America’s education system he’s flat out wrong.  The only thing keeping our students behind those of other nations is lack of accountability for teachers and administrators in our unionized public school monopolies.  Remove the unions from that equation and I guarantee you our schools would thrive.

Jobs’ comments were insightful and spot-on, and they deserve better than a knee-jerk panning from some tech writer.  A tech writer who, I might add, would do well to listen to Jobs as closely on this issue as he clearly does on issues more tech-related.

Does this tick you off? Click here to email your elected representatives right here on Say Anything, or comment below.

Comments

Avatar for kbiel

I don’t necessarily think that selling equipment to schools gives you an inherent knowledge about the way the education system works—which ultimately seems to be Kahney’s point. There’s a lot more behind education problems than teachers’ unions.

I don’t necessarily think that writing for a gadget blog gives you an inherent knowledge about the way the education system works…There’s a lot more behind education problems that can be solved by abolishing teachers’ unions.

This schmuck is clearly a product of the public school system.

kbiel on February 21, 2007 at 08:53 am
Avatar for jake

Jobs is clearly wrong on this, schools are not the free market, and should not be treated like that. Are people going to move their kids around from school to school every time something goes wrong? Does that mean you have to sell your house and move every time the local school does not do well? Maybe for rich people like Jobs that works (or private schools). The only real answer is to start funding the public schools, pay the teachers well, and make education a priority. Then you will see schools improve. Example of this is california, before prop 13 the state funded schools well, we had some of the best schools in the country. Now we are at the bottom.

jake on February 21, 2007 at 09:40 am
Avatar for pb

Teachers in Belgium and Sweden (as in most European countries) are STRONGLY unionized. There goes your argument—right down the toilet. I’ve lost respect for Steve Jobs, too. As for bloggers, I’ve never had much respect for them at all. Mostly pontificating blowhards with too much time on their hands and too little expertise.

pb on February 21, 2007 at 09:47 am

pay the teachers well

Well that’s done as both Rob and I have pointed out teachers in this country make far more than any other white collar profession with the exception of lawyers and judges.

They also make far more than teachers in other countries.  In fact the US spends the largest percentage of our GDP on education than other developed countries (we’re right there with Iceland).  That’s very remarkable in that our per capita GDP is among the higest in the world.

The bottom line is that the more money we throw at education the worse it does.  That’s proven by comparing state spending and the success of their students.

Really Jake you must be some kind of hack for the teachers union to make some of those statements.  Really you should look into the real facts before you start making statements that we need to make education a priority.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 10:09 am
Avatar for Spurlee

I disagree with Jobs on many social issues. But the central point he makes is valid. The government school system has as its greatest goal the full employment of educational professionals. The goal of schools should be the production of citizens who are able to be successful (try to define that in a non-political manner) in our society. In earlier times, this meant that children finished school with a dependable set of skills and a common cultural experience. Now there is much more interest in political indoctrination and social conciousness. And the unions, as is their right and responsibility, spend their energy on supporting the security and benefits of their members. The problem is that if you have a single buyer of labor(govt. schools), and single provider of services (govt. schools), you have no incentive to either improve the product or provide competitive pay/benefits to the best teachers. If we moved to a free market model (vouchers or some other tool), the money would move towards good schools and away from bad ones. This would also provide imporoved pay/benefits for those teachers who excelled at their craft. Of course, unions will continue to oppose this.

Spurlee on February 21, 2007 at 10:13 am
Avatar for kbiel

Jobs is clearly wrong on this, schools are not the free market, and should not be treated like that. Are people going to move their kids around from school to school every time something goes wrong? Does that mean you have to sell your house and move every time the local school does not do well?

What?!?  That’s what you have to do now (in most places) if you want to escape from a bad school.  With the current state of affairs, if your local school or your school district performs poorly, you have only two choices, both of which are costly.  One, you can sell your house, find a new home that you can afford in a better area or district.  Of course, that doesn’t work for the single mom stuck working three jobs in the inner city as her child learns gang banging 101 in the local school.  Two, you can send your child to a private school.  That’s not exactly a bargain solution for our inner city mom, as she is already losing money in taxes to pay for gang bang HS which her child won’t attend and she will have to pay the tuition costs for a private school.

Now if we give said inner city mom a voucher for $10,000 per year, she will have the choice of what school to send her child to and won’t have to move.

Clearly, logic is not your strong point, jake.  But I don’t blame you, most public schools no longer teach courses in logic and reasoning.

kbiel on February 21, 2007 at 10:30 am
Avatar for Benton

Apple Helped How?
... and how did Steve Jobs represent Apple as a solution to the issues confronting education?
On Apple’s time Steve Jobs should propose methods and procedures Apple is capable of bringing to the challenges faced by members of EDUCAUSE.
What ever his personal philosophies may be that influence how he prefers to spend his own money I wish he’d check them at the door.
Steve was invited to showcase Apple’s vision for the education market. He was not invited to quarrel with or slander attendees.
On this day he was part of the problem, not part of Apple’s solution. He needs to keep these Bad days to a minimum.

Benton on February 21, 2007 at 11:17 am

Maybe the Apple stockholders might have a beef with that Benton, but I had thought I heard that we still had free speech in the US.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 11:39 am
Avatar for jake

I beg to differ, we graduate many many teachers, I know I have been to the huge graduations. How many actually remain teachers when they are barely making 40K a year. Some teachers can’t get supplies and must pay for them out of their own pockets.

Stop blaming the teachers, this is just an easy scapegoat! The only way to attract top talent is to pay them well. Most teachers with an education degree end up in private industry because teaching does not pay well and more recently it has become a thankless job because of people like The Whistler. Teachers can’t afford to live in the most densely populated areas.  I think your statistics are the suspect ones.

Once again, a free market solution that the people keep touting as the solution to all ills is does not work except for things like iPods and consumer goods. We are talking about educating our children not shopping around for the best electric razor. Our schools used to work better and we did not have voucher systems. Prop 13 shows this fund them well, attract the best talent, and they do better.

I am not a union member but unlike many people, because of the anti-union movement since Regan, I understand what they are about and that is getting a fair wage and supporting a middle class in this country. Not everyone wants or is able to be a CEO. Some people would like to have one job which is enough to pay the bills and raise a family something you could do when unions were stronger and globalization was not stealing jobs in this country If you want a strong middle class in America then you should support unions because they are sometimes the only way to talk back to management who always want to pay the absolute lowest they can get away with.  Most teachers are not greedy people who want to sit on their asses, they do it because they love the job but they are not going to do it without support of the parents, and a decent wage.

jake on February 21, 2007 at 11:53 am

jake, you are a moron.  Plain and simple.

Paying teachers more money doesn’t attract better teachers.  Back in the Dark Ages when I was in school, education was much, much better than it is today.  Teachers back then went into teaching as a calling.  They knew they wouldn’t make a lot of money doing it, but it was a a passion.  They did it for the kids.  They loved what they did.

Now, it’s about the money.  My wife has been teaching for 30 years.  A beginning teacher today makes four times what she made when she started.  For the mathematically-challenged, that’s a 6% increase per year compounded over those 30 years.  How many other people can say that they have averaged (averaged!) a 6% raise every year for 30 years?  I daresay not many.

A little earlier today, I was commenting to someone that I had noticed something about teachers.  The ones who work the hardest and do the best job are nver the ones complaining about how much they get paid.  It’s always the marginal teachers.  It’s the ones who, without unions, would be out on their asses.  The teachers show deserve the money are happy.  The ones who don’t aren’t.  That’s what you get when you don’t have competition.


“Although I can accept talking scarecrows, lions and great wizards in emerald cities, I find it hard to believe there is no paperwork involved when your house lands on a witch.”
- Dave James

Steve L. on February 21, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Avatar for Benton

To: The Whistler,
Steve Jobs was on the job representing Apple. His free speech ends when it adversely affects Apple Inc. Can you imagine what would happen if Any other Apple employee spoke publicly in a way that was less than flattering to Apple’s core business? Jobs would not hesitate to fire that employee. That employee works at will and is not under contract and is not a member of a bargaining unit.

Benton on February 21, 2007 at 12:22 pm

Benton, if you’re a stockholder of Apple than you have a legitimate beef.  Otherwise you sound like somebody who doesn’t want to learn the truth.

Jake:  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.  Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Avatar for kbiel

Once again, a free market solution that the people keep touting as the solution to all ills is does not work except for things like iPods and consumer goods. We are talking about educating our children not shopping around for the best electric razor.

You keep saying that the free market solution doesn’t work for education, but you don’t give any reasoned argument as to why.  And why wouldn’t I want to shop around for the best school that I can afford for my children, just as I would shop around for the best razor or best music player that I can afford?  In fact, I have already done this with my pre-K, 4 year old twins.  You can bet that I didn’t just stick them into the first school we found.  We visited four different schools, including the pre-K program at our local, public elementary school.  The one we choose is the most expensive of the four, well except for the public school since I would have had to pay a tuition that was nearly as high as the school we chose in addition to the taxes I pay that help fund the public pre-K program.  We chose it because it was the best program we found and we could afford it.  Just like picking out a razor.  Imagine that.

I understand what they are about and that is getting a fair wage and supporting a middle class in this country.

Ah, the class warfare argument comes out.  The best way to raise everyone’s standard of living is to allow the market to choose its own course.  Please read Adam Smith and Milton Friedman, then please think about the reasons for the collapse of communism in Europe.  And if you still doubt that the free market is the best system for letting people raise their standard of living, then start asking why it is that China is slowly evolving into a free market system and why the growth of the middle class in China only began after China made these reforms.  Guess who China consulted when their economy was floundering and the leaders realized that the “Great Leap Forward” actually landed them two squares back?  Milton Friedman, the greatest champion of free market economics.

Command economies have always failed.  Each and every time they’ve been tried.  A union is just another form of a command economy on the smallest scale.

kbiel on February 21, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Avatar for jake

Why would I consult Milton Friedman and Adam Smith?  They believe in the greed principle as the only motivator for people. Let me tell you the free market is an idealistic notion which almost never exists, and if it does companies quickly try to eliminate it because true competition erodes profits. I am not against the free market, I think it makes sense for consumer goods and when there is not a monopoly. Education is not one of those cases, you only have a few practical choices for a particular location.

If you want an educated few rich or better off people then shopping for the best school makes sense. But if you want an egalitarian society, where we don’t incarcerate more people almost any other country per capita, and a competitive workforce, then investing in education for everyone makes lot more sense. The middle class in this country is shrinking, either falling in to poverty or becoming very rich. Let me tell the carrot of becoming very rich is a lot rarer than the numbers dropping into poverty. The best thing for Democracy in this country is a strong middle class. Don’t expect that just because you are able to shop around for the best schools means that everyone should or will be able to especially those on the borderline between poverty and the middle class.

Last time I checked China is still communist, this just shows that political systems and economic systems are two different things people in America seem to equate democracy and freedom with the free market (as Friedman has done)...two completely different things.

China is a powder keg ready to explode. There is a huge number of people getting very rich and a slave like class a the bottom. Working conditions tend to be horrible. Their environment is falling apart. If that is your vision for America then that is what you will get with a pure free market solution. I expect unions to start appearing in China very soon when people have had enough.

Milton and Adam Smith think of the world as a machine and forget that humans are part of the equation.

jake on February 21, 2007 at 02:58 pm

What an incredible amount of ignorance Jake.

Why would I consult Milton Friedman and Adam Smith?  They believe in the greed principle as the only motivator for people…. Education is not one of those cases, you only have a few practical choices for a particular location.

First of all Friedman would be a great person to consult as I believe he came up with the idea of school vouchers.  That would introduce choice to the market.  Teachers unions don’t want them because they then would be accountable to the parents of the kids they fail to educate.

Milton Friedman was appalled (as everyone who’s not a member of the teachers’ union should be) at the poor quality of education given particularly to the children of the disadvantaged. Only a liberal or a union thug would be satisfied to keep people ignorant so that they remain dependent.

The other stunningly ignorant point is that the schools are worst where the population is the highest.  There should be tons of choices for parents to take their kids in the cities.  Sure there are some rural areas that wouldn’t have a lot of choices but generally the schools are good.

The middle class in this country is shrinking, either falling in to poverty or becoming very rich.

Way to state it so that what you say is true, but misleading.  The American middle class is only shrinking because more people are becoming rich.  There are not more people falling into poverty.  (Plus people in poverty generally don’t live in poverty.  (The poverty numbers exclude government assistance.)

China is a powder keg ready to explode. There is a huge number of people getting very rich and a slave like class a the bottom. Working conditions tend to be horrible.

The standard of living is rising for everyone in China.  Only a socialist would long back to the days of peasant farming.  I think they called you guys Luddites during the Industrial revolution.

I expect unions to start appearing in China very soon

Fine by me, they have every right to screw up their economy the same as anyone else.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 03:10 pm
Avatar for jake

Whistler repeats over and over:
Teachers are paid more than any other white collar profession. 

Just because you keep repeating it does not make it so. This is a demonstrably false statement. Maybe they should make more than any other white collar profession if we truly valued educating our children, but that certainly not the state of things right now. This book introduction has a pretty good summary of the state of teacher pay.

teacher pay

Some have attacked my logic with ad hominum attacks, I think that there is plenty of other posters here who are lacking in their logical abilities. Certainly, pay is not the only factor for teachers doing what they do but if they can’t pay the bills that is certainly going to affect your choices. I don’t know any rich school teachers and I know quite a few.

jake on February 21, 2007 at 03:21 pm

You know Jake I posted the links on the teachers pay.  They make more money than any other white collar profession except for being a lawyer. 

I’ll post the links again and you’ll ignore them again.

Here

Here

and Here

You can go back among the rest of your teaching union buddies and claim differently but the facts are the facts and you won’t get away with your lies here.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 03:32 pm
Avatar for jake

Come off it, what a joke, some of your references coming from David Horowitz the biggest anti-education right wing reactionary and other nut jobs. Average teachers salaries are in the $45,000 range. Just about any college educated computer programmer will start at 70k and higher. I can’t believe you will just repeat this garbage without even the most basic fact checking.

Done with this blog, it is clearly a lost cause, just reading the other entries. Not worthy of my time.

jake on February 21, 2007 at 03:47 pm

yep $34 an hour is an insult.  I don’t know how anyone can expect to maintain two homes on that kind of income.  Sure the great benefits help but they don’t pay the second mortgage.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 03:51 pm
Avatar for kbiel

Wow jake, you really are a delusional lefty.

Why would I consult Milton Friedman and Adam Smith?  They believe in the greed principle as the only motivator for people. Let me tell you the free market is an idealistic notion which almost never exists, and if it does companies quickly try to eliminate it because true competition erodes profits.

Of course businesses try to gain as much market share as possible.  That’s part of the system.  But, I won’t be able to convince you that it’s a good thing because you seem to be too emotionally invested in command economies.

I am not against the free market, I think it makes sense for consumer goods and when there is not a monopoly. Education is not one of those cases, you only have a few practical choices for a particular location.

You are right, we “only have few practical choices for a particular location” now.  So far, all the arguments you’ve given as reasons why a free market would not work for education are limitations imposed by the current monopolistic system.  It seems that facts and reason are not your strongest suit, but let me try this again.  We have a working example of free market education now.  You can find Mother’s Day Out and pre-K programs in just about any city or town in this nation.  Each of them compete for a share of their local market and each of them offer one single product, education.

Another example is the university.  If a command economy and a government monopoly is such a great thing for education, then why don’t we force tax payers to pay the tuition costs for public universities?  If we really can’t get a good education in a free market economy, then let’s eliminate the competition and profit motivation at the university level too.  After all, a university is not like a razor or some consumer electronic that I can choose.

If you want an educated few rich or better off people then shopping for the best school makes sense. But if you want an egalitarian society, where we don’t incarcerate more people almost any other country per capita, and a competitive workforce, then investing in education for everyone makes lot more sense.

Again, you site the current situation as a reason for not trying a free market educational system.  Let me help you with this logic thing: Saying, “we can’t do school vouchers because we have a monopoly now and the results are bad,” is a logical fallacy.  You have not established a causal relationship between school vouchers/free market education and the dire circumstances you site.  Worse, you make your argument look silly because you are siting those dire circumstances that occurred during your preferred method.

Don’t expect that just because you are able to shop around for the best schools means that everyone should or will be able to especially those on the borderline between poverty and the middle class.

School vouchers prevent the poor from shopping for the best schools?  Is that really your argument?!?

Last time I checked China is still communist, this just shows that political systems and economic systems are two different things people in America seem to equate democracy and freedom with the free market (as Friedman has done)...two completely different things.

Huh?!?  Are you really that stupid?  Do you really think that economic and political systems are completely decoupled?  Did you even graduation from that public high school?  Even as bad as I think public education is, I don’t think it’s bad enough to produce such ignorance.

Communism by definition is an economic system.  There are various political systems which are built upon communism, such as Maxism-Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, et cetera, but communism is still an economic system.  The fact that China still has a soviet style of government does not change the fact that it is moving away from communism and slowly embracing free markets.  But, how the hell can you have free markets with out freedom?!?

kbiel on February 21, 2007 at 03:56 pm
Avatar for kbiel

China is a powder keg ready to explode. There is a huge number of people getting very rich and a slave like class a the bottom.

And if you study the situation, you will find the middle class and rich in the free market zones and the poor are kept in the country working like slaves on their farms where they are not allowed to participate in the free market.

Working conditions tend to be horrible. Their environment is falling apart. If that is your vision for America then that is what you will get with a pure free market solution.

WTF?!?  Are you suggesting that China is a pure free market?  Please refer to my previous comment about logical fallacy.

Milton and Adam Smith think of the world as a machine and forget that humans are part of the equation.

Is your brain that adled?  Really?  I’m serious, your ignorance is scary.  Milton Friedman and Adam Smith thought of the world as a machine?  They did not include humans in their equations?  So where does the self-interest (or as your prefer to call it, greed) come in?  Does it just materialize out of thin air?

Thanks for playing jake.  It’s been fun, but I don’t think that I will be able to pierce the thick cloud of ignorance and marxist BS that surrounds your head.  If marxist ideology is what gets you going, I suggest that you move down to Venezuela.  Good luck, you’re going to need as their economy is going down the crapper.

kbiel on February 21, 2007 at 03:57 pm
Avatar for Terrin

Ps:

Those teacher salary statistics are misleading. First, in Michigan public teachers start off on average at around $28, 000 a year. Teachers who have graduate degrees and worked on the job for longer periods eventually can make around $70, 000. So, the statistics you rely on do not tell us 1) how long the average teacher has been on the job, or 2) what level of education they have obtained. A public teacher with a four year degree and a year on the job, at least in Michigan, is not making big dollars. They, however, are not poor either.

Moreover, cost of living needs to be considered.

This is not to say I think teachers are underpaid, just that the statistics are relatively meaningless by themselves.

Terrin on February 21, 2007 at 04:07 pm

This is not to say I think teachers are underpaid, just that the statistics are relatively meaningless by themselves.

You also left out the fact that teachers don’t work as many hours as the rest of us.  They make decent money with GREAT BENEFITS and with a GREAT WORK SCHEDULE. 

I forget where I saw it, but teachers make far more in the US than they make in other countries.  Certainly we spend far more per pupil than other countries.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 04:19 pm
Avatar for kbiel

A public teacher with a four year degree and a year on the job, at least in Michigan, is not making big dollars.

Moreover, cost of living needs to be considered.

So?  Isn’t that true of just about every profession?  Are teachers so special that they should be paid like sports stars?  If that is the case, then we should also be able to cut them from the team when they under perform too.

This is not to say I think teachers are underpaid, just that the statistics are relatively meaningless by themselves.

In what way are they “relatively meaningless” when used to compare to other professions as TW did?

kbiel on February 21, 2007 at 04:26 pm
Avatar for jake

kbiel Trying to sift through the continued ad hominum attacks, this is obviously the tactic of the weak minded (try it on for size). I am going to ignore the comments that start with attacks.
School vouchers prevent the poor from shopping for the best schools?  Is that really your argument?!?

I have never seen a voucher system that will pay the full costs of education. This is just a tax break for people who can already afford to send their kids to private school. The poor will get poorer with a voucher system. They don’t have the additional discretionary income to make any decision. They will have to pick the worst schools. Lets lift everyone not just those who have the most money. It is the inequalities that create strife as we see in China.

jake on February 21, 2007 at 04:57 pm
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I have never seen a voucher system that will pay the full costs of education.-jake

Do you have any facts to back this up? The vouchers I’ve seen pay full cost or more.

This is just a tax break for people who can already afford to send their kids to private school.

So, if a poor or lower middle class family sacrifices to put their children in private schools, we should deny them this break because it might also benefit someone who doesn’t need it?

They will have to pick the worst schools.

This would be the “free” government school system? You don’t have a very high opinion of our current schools. (You’re in good company!)

Consider, too, jake, that the lower middle class families are paying taxes to support failing government schools AND paying tuition to private schools. I think these people need a break far more than say, the Clintons who sent Chelsea to a pricey private school.

Means test for it if you like, to keep the wealthy from picking the pockets of the poor. Shame alone apparently isn’t enough! (John Kerry’s wife could afford to buy an entire university, but his daughter applies for a scholarship anyway!)


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Proof on February 21, 2007 at 05:28 pm

Who says that the it costs $10,000 child to educate a child.

The parochial schools do a better job for a lot less.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


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The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 05:38 pm
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Proof,

Our current school system needs to be improved not destroyed. The voucher system will destroy it. You assume it is broken completely, that is not the case. Classic throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Vouchers plans I have seen only provide about $2500. To get an pubic education it cost about $5600 per student per year. Conservatively, It is much more for private schools $14,000+ and goes up in higher grade levels. Colleges are getting more expensive too, for good schools now getting into the $15,000+ for non public schools, and climbing. If you don’t think a voucher system would cause private school prices to rise then you are quite mistaken. How much debt do you think people want to be in by the time they graduate?

This article paints a even more expensive picture:
washington post

Educating everyone well benefits everyone. Another persons kid, if well educated, may be the one who solves the global warming crisis, the person who protects you on the street will probably be more effective if they can read, etc. Education should work for all americans not just the wealthy. It benefits everyone in the short term and long term. Vouchers will create vast inequalities in the education quality by definition. Some people get much better schools than others based upon ability to pay. Public education is under attack even though it is probably the least expensive way to educate our children. Vouchers just make it much more expensive and will educate some well, others poorly.

jake on February 21, 2007 at 06:38 pm

Educating everyone well benefits everyone.

Yes and the current system is failing.  Why do you insist on forcing kids to be educated in failing schools?  Is it just because it’s good for the union members.  Shame on you.

Our current school system needs to be improved not destroyed. The voucher system will destroy it.

If it’s not broken then vouchers won’t destroy the system.  Vouchers will give the schools a reason to improve rather than be satisfied with the unacceptable status quo.

Another persons kid, if well educated, may be the one who solves the global warming crisis,

Oh, I already solved it.  It’s a fraud perpetrated by socialists to take our money and give it to people that didn’t earn it.

You’re welcome.


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


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The Whistler on February 21, 2007 at 06:56 pm

I dunno.

The current public school system has consumed billions of taxpayer dollars and has little to show for it. 

Not only are our children not being given a solid education as to the essentials: reading, writing, mathematics, chemistry, physics, history and so forth, a tremendous amount of effort has been directed at mis-educating our youth, denigrating national heroes as slave-owning hypocrites, extolling virtues of Third World cultures while debasing our own and whole-heartedly jumping in bed with pharmaceutical companies to string our kids out on Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs).

I would also not say that the teachers themselves are making bundles of cash.  Usually their pay is pretty meager.  The lions share of taxpayer money seems to siphoned off by high-level administrators, whose function doesn’t seem entirely clear to me, aside from making sure that the mind-warping programs for the kids are actually carried out.

I strongly support vouchers.  But I would go a step further.  Whatever a given household would be taxed for so-called ‘public schools’ would be the amount of the voucher.  The school taxes, therefore, would become completely portable.

The school system has metastasized into a socialist must-fund, must-attend, must-submit-child-to-indoctrination beast that has no place in a free country.

The arguments that ‘all benefit by being educated’ is a non sequitur in that the system we have is not educating our students—it is indoctrinating a cohort of dumbed-down, conflicted, SSRI-addicted, idiots who suffer from ill-placed sense of unearned and overwheening pride.

I say cut the taxpayer’s funds loose and let the free market determine where those dollars go.

If the Socialists end up dying on the vine, oh dear, how sad—boo hoo.


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Move_Zig on February 21, 2007 at 07:18 pm
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Our current school system needs to be improved not destroyed.

You’re assuming that competition will destroy it? Or the opportunity to get rid of deadwood and adopt curricula that actually teach our children?

If it can’t do that, it deserves to be destroyed!


Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

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Proof on February 21, 2007 at 07:26 pm
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Steve Jobs doesn’t know jack about education and teachers’ unions. You obviously don’t either judging by your conservative screed, of which I stopped reading after the first two paragraphs. And what do I know? I know that my wife is taking an ERO after 28 years as a high school teacher, more than half as union president, and it ain’t because of the union, the administration or even the state.
    Steve Jobs is attacking one of his strongest customer bases by his malformed opinion on teachers’ unions. Doesn’t he know many of his most loyal customers are teachers who bought their first Apple computer through school purchase programs? Who paid $40 a month from an already low (despite being unionized) salary for many months-like we did? That was well over 20 years ago and we have spent many thousands of dollars on Apple products since then. I don’t think I can support a company any longer that disrespects its loyal customers so.
    And by the way, anyone who works for a living and doesn’t support the union is-how can I put it delicately-an idiot. Unions represent democracy in the workplace. Period. That is what really troubles King Jobs.

Dennis Smysor on February 22, 2007 at 05:04 am

Yeah Dennis, the schools are great for the teachers because of the union.

Too bad the students and taxpayers get screwed over. 

By the way why is it that unions work for the bad worker?  Why doesn’t the union work for the productive worker?


1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.


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The Whistler on February 22, 2007 at 05:38 am
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Steve Jobs doesn’t know jack about education and teachers’ unions. You obviously don’t either judging by your conservative screed, of which I stopped reading after the first two paragraphs

Well, well, well…where to start? Obviously not a Dale Carnegie grad! Not entirely unbiased, as he’s married to a Teacher’s Union President. And not entirely informed, as he confesses to not reading the entire argument. Then he resorts to name calling at the end. In fact, his biggest argument is that the poor, underpaid teachers like his wife “have spent many thousands of dollars on Apple products”. Many thousands??? This fellow is so poor he can’t pay attention!
Can you say “Liberal screed”???


Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

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”(Proof) You’re, as we say in Hawaii, No Ka Oi!”

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Proof on February 22, 2007 at 06:41 am

I agree with Proof.
This:

You obviously don’t either judging by your conservative screed

isn’t even worth typing. Guy ain’t helping his position.


For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

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Sparkie Arbuckle on February 22, 2007 at 07:22 am
Avatar for R M Bermack

No one seems to have mentioned the most important thing about our education system- everyone is stuck on blaming the teacher’s unions for the failure of our system. The most important part of a child’s education begins at home with the PARENT.How well a child does in school is almost always related to the parent’s involvement with the child. When a parent is at the PTA metings, goes to the after school activities, and lets the child know that school is the top priority, I don’t care what the income level is or what school the child attends, 99% of the time, that child will do well in school. Stop blaming the teachers-blame the source of the problem- the parents. Childern learn by example- if the parent doesn’t think that school is imporant, why should the child? The best advice? Get involved instead of blaming everone else for your child’s academic failures.

R M Bermack on February 22, 2007 at 08:31 pm
Avatar for kbiel

Get involved instead of blaming everone else for your child’s academic failures.

So R M, what’s your advice for those of us who are involved but are confronted with incompetent teachers, administrative bureaucracy, and ridiculous educational fads?  Oh, wait, it’s my fault that my child gets bored to tears in her class because 50-80% of her class were either average or below average.  I guess it’s my fault for having her memorize multiplication tables because it’s no longer considered necessary by the education PhDs.  It’s my fault that she lost interest in math because it was remedial for her year after year after year because the teachers had to teach to the lowest common denominator in the class.  It’s my fault that the teachers wanted me and my wife (an elementary teacher herself) less involved because we were upsetting the boat.

Thanks, R M, I always wondered why the public schools seemed to do a bad job, but now I realize it was just me.

kbiel on February 22, 2007 at 09:02 pm
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The most important part of a child’s education begins at home with the PARENT.How well a child does in school is almost always related to the parent’s involvement with the child.

Education does start with the parent, so I’m sure you’ll join us, RM, in calling for parental choice programs that let parents pick which school they want for their kids.


The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Rob on February 22, 2007 at 09:21 pm

jake said, Conservatively, It is much more for private schools $14,000+...

What are you talking about? Do you just like making up things?

Another persons kid, if well educated, may be the one who solves the global warming crisis…

Oh, that answers my question.

Education should work for all americans not just the wealthy. It benefits everyone in the short term and long term. Vouchers will create vast inequalities in the education quality by definition.

You completely ignore the position that vouchers benefit all because they introduce competition. Why do you ignore that while continuing to repeat your empty platitudes?

Dennis Smysor said, Steve Jobs doesn’t know jack about education and teachers’ unions. You obviously don’t either judging by your conservative screed, of which I stopped reading after the first two paragraphs. And what do I know?

So you stopped reading, but you’re going to comment anyways? That’s typical of union thugs.

And by the way, anyone who works for a living and doesn’t support the union is-how can I put it delicately-an idiot. Unions represent democracy in the workplace. Period. That is what really troubles King Jobs.

Is this supposed to be some kind of reasoned argument? “Support the union or you’re an idiot.”

Care to answer why I was once paying union dues for an automotive mafia - even though I wasn’t allowed to join? Care to answer why I wasn’t allowed to represent myself and negotiate my own wage with the company owner (who I personally knew)? Was that “democracy”? Where was my freedom of association in this “democracy”?

Looks like you’re the idiot Dennis. Worse than that, you’re a willful idiot.

likwidshoe on February 22, 2007 at 09:57 pm
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