Say Anything Blog

I was a HUGE King fan, but his work the last 10-15 years has absolutely sucked (compared to his older stuff).

""That’s the problem with you lefties, you’re not willing to get your hands dirty. I’d suggest you roll up your sleeves.”

-Jack Bauer

I don’t understand what’s wrong with what he said. He didn’t say that everyone in the army is an illiterate, he said that if you don’t get an education, the army is going to be one of your few remaining employment options… which it is. We don’t all live in sprawling wheat-land where we can set up a farm. In the inner cities, if you don’t have an education, you’re either selling drugs or joining the army.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I think that his comments were disrespectful of our service members.

However, I do agree that the Army provides excellent opportunities to those who are less fortunate:
discipline, healthcare, education, job training, housing, etc.  Most people leaving the military are well prepared to lead successful, productive lives.

And yet, he looks so much like Janet Reno!

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

I think that his comments were disrespectful of our service members.

However, I do agree that the Army provides excellent opportunities to those who are less fortunate…

Huh? In other words, you agree that the army is where illiterates can get a job, but King was somehow insensitive to utter this truth? Woah, between this and the NY search initiative, my fellow Republicans are very touchy today.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

He didn’t say that everyone in the army is an illiterate, he said that if you don’t get an education, the army is going to be one of your few remaining employment options… which it is.

What King is seems to be implying is that we should do our homework, because we don’t want to end up joining the military--and serving our war.

What King is seems to be implying…

...or perhaps that’s what you’re reading into it.

This is just silly.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

The military has always been accepting of the disadvantaged and less-educated.  Stephen King saying so (for whatever reason) doesn’t make it less true.  The percentage of the total force who suffers thusly is smaller now than it has ever been.

America wasn’t founded so we could all become better.  America was founded so we could all become whatever we damn well please.

Regards…

I don’t believe you can join the military if you are illiterate.

It’s a sad day when WOOF is the one bringing sanity to a thread.

No one gets into todays Armed Forces in ANY branch without either a High School Diploma or a GED.  Anyone found to be functionally illiterate gets separated in boot camp as unsuitable.

The average private soldier, airman, marine, or seaman recruit has higher than average intelligence when compared to their age group in the general population, and it’s been that way for more than twenty years now.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Stayed at a
Holiday Inn Express,
and I found my meds.

Glad to hear it.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Woof beat me to the punch here.

What an insanely stupid thing to say that if you can’t read, your only option is the army.

And what a jackass thing it is for Hairy to be defending King’s worthless ass.

Hairy: If I just keep ignoring the evidence that I’m wrong, and keep repeating that our soldiers are stupid...everyone may finally buy it!

Alright, you win. King is a traitor to America.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Alright, if you want to step it up a notch on the insults scale, here goes: Do you guys actually believe that when King said “learn how to read” he meant that you don’t know how to read? (Or are you just acting stupid for the sake of your argument?) Everyone in America knows how to read to some degree, so clearly he meant “read well.” And yes, if you don’t “read well”, the army is a good place to go.

No one gets into todays Armed Forces in ANY branch without either a High School Diploma or a GED.

If you have to get a GED, it’s safe to assume that you don’t “read well.” My friends who got their GEDs and are now in the army can attest to that. I don’t think there is anything wrong with them, and I don’t think that their lack of education reflects on our military (which also happens to have PhDs in its ranks), but I certainly think that King’s statement that if you don’t pull yourself out of the gutter with education you may end up in the army is valid.

And what a jackass thing it is for Hairy to be defending King’s worthless ass.

I’m not defending King, but merely attacking your stupid, touchy, assumptions about what he said.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic,

You need to get out of Gotham.

There is plenty of intelligent and even well read life beyond Soddom on the Hudson.

And you either overlooked or found inconvenient the fact that the AVERAGE first term service man has considerably above average intelligence than their age cadre in the national population.

You’re probably also unaware that the services now require their senior NCO’s to have 4 year degrees, and have long required that senior officers have Graduate Degrees.

But hey, don’t let little old facts get in the way of your prejudices there…

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Then again Hairy could be one of those (uneducated?) types who could benefit from a stint in the Army. or he’s just very...touchy...today.

Ability to read well is not necessarily an indication of intelligence. I have many dyslexic friends who struggle with reading, but have excelled academically and other friends who loved to read who didn’t do so well in the armed forces. King is a bit of a pillock, suggesting that literacy is an indicator of intelligence, IMO.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Rodney,

You’re probably also unaware that the services now require their senior NCO’s to have 4 year degrees, and have long required that senior officers have Graduate Degrees.

But hey, don’t let little old facts get in the way of your prejudices there…

Didn’t I say in my above post that I am well aware that the army has PhDs serving in it? How does that change the fact that if I don’t have an education and I can’t get a job, the army is a viable path? Even a good path… because it will ultimately provide me with an education.

So, once again, you’re all touchy.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy,

There a lot of educated folks out amongst “the wheat fields” and most successful farmers hold bachelors degrees or better (most successful family farms are LLC’s with thousands of acres these days).  But then again, why would you know anything more about things beyond Gotham than you do about the Armed Forces?

And you still have not acknowledged that the average first term member of the Armed Forces is of considerably higher than average intelligence when compared to their age cadre from the general population.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Rodney,

There a lot of educated folks out amongst “the wheat fields” and most successful farmers hold bachelors degrees or better (most successful family farms are LLC’s with thousands of acres these days).

I’m not sure how that factors into our argument.

And you still have not acknowledged that the average first term member of the Armed Forces is of considerably higher than average intelligence when compared to their age cadre from the general population.

Lets assume that the average first term member of the Armed Forces has an IQ of 140 and several graduate degrees. How does that change the fact that you still only need a GED to enter into the armed forces and that it is therefore a viable option for people whose lack of education prevents them from getting a job anywhere else?

Here’s the flaw in your argument.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy picks nits:

[I wrote]There a lot of educated folks out amongst “the wheat fields” and most successful farmers hold bachelors degrees or better (most successful family farms are LLC’s with thousands of acres these days).

I’m not sure how that factors into our argument.

Way back up in the thread (in your initial reply) you wrote:

We don’t all live in sprawling wheat-land where we can set up a farm.

Since you didn’t take the general point when I replied:

You need to get out of Gotham.

There is plenty of intelligent and even well read life beyond Soddom on the Hudson.

I found it necessary to educate you.

As regards your:

Lets assume that the average first term member of the Armed Forces has an IQ of 140 and several graduate degrees.

Above average for their age group in both measured intelligence (ASVAB) and education (100% H.S. Diploma or GED).  Disproportionately from the top three quintiles of family income.

How does that change the fact that you still only need a GED to enter into the armed forces and that it is therefore a viable option for people whose lack of education prevents them from getting a job anywhere else?

Most who are prevented “from getting a job anywhere else” can’t find work for reasons other than education, and are either screened out in the recuitment process, or during basic training.

The flaw in your argument is that you’re talking about that which you clearly know nothing of.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Rodney,

Now we’re getting somewhere, but still no closer to logical flow on your end:

Most who are prevented “from getting a job anywhere else” can’t find work for reasons other than education, and are either screened out in the recuitment process, or during basic training.

That doesn’t change the fact that those who are prevented from getting a job for a lack of education, but not those “other reasons” you mentioned, can still turn to the army—which conforms to King’s statement.

The flaw in your above argument is called ”affirming the consequent.” If A then B is not the same as if B then A.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

A little perspective from Stephen King’s hometown.

The Army Captain mentioned here grew up a few doors down the street from King’s house.

A doctor’s son, Tim Wright was a Latin scholar with a 3.8 average in high school. Admitted to Princeton, he chose to go to West Point instead.

It sounds to me like Tim can read.  I didn’t grow up next door but I did play little league with Owen King.  From that point on, our lives diverged and Owen eventually went on to college and made something of himself as a writer.  I… well, I sadly found myself with few options and ended up at Annapolis.  From there my life kept going downhill, hitting rock bottom four years later when I was forced into the loser catch-all world of Naval aviation and the mindless drudgery of piloting high-performance aircraft.

If only Stephen King had yelled out to me to “Read, kid!” as an 11 year old ballplayer…

BD,

How does your anecdote dispute what King said? You are doing what Rodney just did: Just because you find people in the army who have great educations (and I’m sure that all of the officers do) doesn’t mean you won’t find people who went into the army because their lack of education precluded them from doing anything else.

Why is it so difficult to grasp this simple logic:

If A --> B does not mean if B --> A

To illustrate for you simply:

If all people who are blind bump into walls, does not mean that all people who bump into walls must be blind.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I know this man who grew up on a farm in the Heartland of North Dakota. When he was 18 years old he enlisted in the army during the Viet Nam war era. After he served his country he went on to college and earned a Bachelors degree in mathematics with emphasis in engineering.

Next week is our annual corporate shareholders meeting. We are a fortune 500 company. The CEO of our company is paid an annual salary of $1.9 million dollars. For the last three years, we shareholders, with the board of directors direction, have granted that CEO a bonus of $4.5 million dollars in corporate stock.

Not bad for a farm kid, who served in the army.

Has anyone taken the time to explain to this waste of human genetic material that you have to be literate to enlist. It’s not like it was when I raised my right hand the first time holdig a lottery number in the other.

...people who went into the army because their lack of education precluded them from doing anything else.

Woof, I worked on a landscaping crew during my summers off from high school.  And believe me, the Army wouldn’t have been a valid option for some of those guys.  The military is not a haven of last resort for people with no other choice.  As others have pointed out, new recruits are actually above average, in terms of educational attainment and economic background, compared to their age group as a whole.

And I’m not going to argue what King said.  I know what he said.  Being a reader of his, and being from the same town, I watched the broadcast on C-SPAN last night, even suffering through his wife’s sleep-inducing talk.

After a decade plus of uniformed service, including a couple of tours in joint environments alongside the Army, I know that there are a handful of people who perceive that enlisting is their only choice, when in reality there are always options if you’re willing to apply yourself.  Those people who feel like they had no choice are few and far between, and dimwits are even more of a rarity in today’s highly technical military.  Illiterate dimwits are totally absent.

So, in short, I know what King said, and I disagree that the military is some kind of last resort.  I also know what he implied.  King, as a one-time English teacher, is surely an advocate of reading between the lines and divining the deeper meaning of the words written on the page or spoken by a lecturer.  It’s quite obvious that he regards military service as an inferior choice, or else he wouldn’t use it as a scare tactic.  “Read, or you’ll end up a lowly Army person!”

Alright, you win. King is a traitor to America.

Once again, called on your stupid assumptions you issue reduce your opponents arguments to the absurd. No one has suggested King is a traitor. Just an idiot and a prick.

I’m not defending King, but merely attacking your stupid, touchy, assumptions about what he said.

His comments:

But the fact is, if you can read, you can walk into a job later on. But if you can’t you’ve got, you know, Iraq, something like that. It’s not as bright.

So, if you can read, you can get any job you want. If you can’t, you’re a soldier. He said EXACTLY what I claimed. And since you have repeatedly slandered our troops as idiots and defended anyone who said as such, you’re just doing what you always do.

And you’re not intelligent enough to actually defend this position, so you keep linking to logical fallacies as if that makes your point. “Well, sure I’m wrong overall, but there are like, conditions, where I could be right. So you know, that makes me not really wrong.”

The individual justifications are:

“Well, they have nowhere else to go!”

Oh please. If they can’t get something as basic as a minimum wage job...they WILL NOT GET into the army. There are intelligence and proficiency tests that you have to pass to get in. While you obviously don’t have to be a genius, you have to have at least average intelligence. Maybe you genuinely believe that the people in the army can’t sign on at McDonalds, landscaping, or vice versa...but the rest of us are not under such delusions.

“Disproportionately, people use the military to further their education.”

This undermines your point. These people are using the army to FURTHER THEIR EDUCATION. If education is the determiner of intelligence, as you seem to be claiming, the army is clearly superior to other jobs, as it is the only job to actively seek to increase the intelligence of its employees.

“A->B does not mean B->A”

But you haven’t proved A->B yet. A GED is the educational equivalent of a high school diploma. You have to have the same range of knowledge as you do with the ACT, SAT, or some college intro tests.

“Some people see the military as a last resort.”

None of those people see the military as a last resort because of education. The military has long been a last resort for those in prison. “If the military can’t straighten you out, you go to jail forever” is not the same as “you are stupid, so go to the military.” And the military has a GREAT track record of turning these people around.

You’re simply not going to find anyone who suddenly wakes up one day and says “Well, crap, I have no choice but to be a soldier.” It. Just. Doesn’t. Happen.

BD,

Hail and well met. 

‘87 myself, 31st Co.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

This is THE Stephen King, right?  The fabulously successful and wealthy author?  The guy who spends an inordinate amount of time locked up by himself, writing intricate tales of evil and horror?  That guy?

And he’s the one who’s gonna tell us what real people at the bottom rung of society ought to do???  Why not ask Susan Sarandon?

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Stephen King has always been left of center in a lot of his political views.  However I think his angsts of the last few years started after Desperation was published.

In that book he had quite a few criticisms of the cocktail party crowd, and seemed a little more understanding of middle-western American values, if not exactly approving. And I think he has been trying to make up for it ever since.

After that book was published, the cocktail crowd probably gave him the cold shoulder for awhile, or some funny looks and he has been spending all this time trying to prove to them that “Hey, guys, I’m not one of those freaks”.

Largely, he does it by putting in stupid, (and usually irrelevant to the narrative) political commentary in some of his characters dialogs or inner musings.

He also seems to have this idea that a talent in writing is that same as a talent in public speaking, something I think he proves wrong again and again on his own.