Should We Be “Cracking Down” On Payday Loans?

John Edwards thinks so:

CLEVELAND – Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards, on an eight-state swing to highlight poverty issues, on Tuesday called for a national law to crackdown on predatory lending.
Walking through a struggling neighborhood in Cleveland, the nation’s poorest big city, Edwards said that without national regulations predatory lenders who offer higher-priced loans to people with tarnished credit or low incomes “just move to another place where they are not regulated.”

Bart Hinkle hit on this subject today, and I think he made a pretty good point about letting people be responsible for their own actions.
He uses the example of newly-instituted “abusive driving” fines in Virginia. Basically, if you’re caught driving in such a way that endangers other people on the road (like 20mph over the speed limit, or without insurance, etc.) you can get fined thousands of dollars. Bart notes that such a fine could put a lot of working class people in dire financial straits. The same sort of dire financial straits people find themselves in when they choose to live beyond their means and facilitate that lifestyle with bridge loans.
In the first instance most would say that the person receiving the fine is suffering the consequences of their actions in not following traffic laws. Yet in the second instance the people getting the payday loans are cast as victims. As if the decision to get the loan in the first place weren’t theirs to make.
Personally, I don’t think it’s fair to punish money lenders (as unscrupulous as they may be) for the poor financial choices of their clients.

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  • http://Array ALLEN

    At the heart of the issue is the business model that payday lenders use to make money in the industry. The loans that they extend to consumers must be paid back within a two week period, which is often not long enough for the person to earn the additional money needed to pay back the entire loan, resulting in a cycle of borrowing new loans to pay off the old loans. Experts estimate that the majority of the individuals that take out a payday loan get trapped within this cycle of debt, taking out an average of 12 loans throughout the year and paying the payday lender hundreds of dollars in interest for the loan.

    Another issue at the heart of the problem is the interest rate that the payday lenders are charging to consumers for taking out the loan. The payday lenders argue that their loans come with terms of $15 for each $100 taken out as a loan, which is not an excessive amount by their calculations. When calculated as an APR, which is currently the only legal way to represent an interest rate applied to a loan, the lenders are charging their consumers 391% interest on the loan, an amount that lawmakers say is exorbitant and wildly unfair to consumers.
    =================================================================

    ALLEN

    Payday loans up to $1500 in as little as one hour.

    Payday Cash Advance Loan

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/Anna/ Anna

    “addicted” to payday loans

    No, not addicted but definitely in a situation that promotes repetitive payday advancements. Most payday borrowers advance their full upcoming check. Then these people seem to forget that puts them behind by one paycheck minus the fee for that loan. If they need next weeks paycheck this week, where is the money that they need next going to come from?
    Unfortunate situation for these low on money people to get themselves into.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/Anna/ Anna

    JustinB, any parent can get the necessities for their children at the food bank ..including diapers. Paying rent or utility bill should not be any problem to contact the service provider and arrange the late payment.. oooh wait, unless of course they have over abused that privileged then by all means let them get so far beyond their means that they simply no longer have means at all. Payday loans are an outrages scam to make the rich richer… and darn it that I didn’t think of the clever idea first! :P

  • http://www.ski-blog.com/ sayanything-24

    JustinB, any parent can get the necessities for their children at the food bank ..including diapers. Paying rent or utility bill should not be any problem to contact the service provider and arrange the late payment.. oooh wait, unless of course they have over abused that privileged then by all means let them get so far beyond their means that they simply no longer have means at all. Payday loans are an outrages scam to make the rich richer… and darn it that I didn’t think of the clever idea first!

    Credit Cards and Car Loans are part of the same scam. Dealers will sell you a car that they know you cannot afford at an interest rate that is above what your credit rating warrants to make backend money off the deal. Credit Cards charge as high as 30% APR on default accounts. Anyone want to talk about all the other businesses that operate on the grey fringe that prey on Illegal Immigrants?

    These services will exist but will become more expensive and more violent if they are illegalized. This is a service that the market demands and for which there is no replacement for these customers. Remember that for legal companies that don’t engage in illegal violence, the risks of dealing with the folks they deal with are so high that they warrant extremely high interest charges. I believe that payday loans cut down on violent crime reprisals for drug dealers and for bookies as well as other criminal elements. People are not forced to go there, but rather make choices.

  • Bat One

    I find it ironic that liberals, who used to argue vociferously against the regulation or banning of XXX-rated movie theaters, strip clubs, etc. by noting that no one stood outside such establishments forcing the unwilling inside at gunpoint, are now taking exactly the opposite tack in arguing for the regulation or elimination of so-called “predatory lenders,” when clearly their earlier arguments apply here as well.

    Makes me wonder if anyone on the Left even knows how to think anymore.

  • http://www.ski-blog.com/ sayanything-24

    Payday loans places offer a valuable service to the poor. Let them miss their rent payment or utility bill or not be able to pay their bookie or drug dealer. Getting a payday loan sure beats paying your drug dealer off by sucking his c*ck behind the 7-11. Or not buying baby formula for your two kids.

    Ever think that the Liberal Elitists that live in Ivory Towers like Mr. Two Americas have never had to deal with poverty so they don’t understand the circumstances that lead the poor to need payday loans and pay the high interest rates as opposed to the alternatives? That is what is great about Liberal Elitists. They can tell the rest of the world how to live from their Universities and Mansions on high.

  • http://www.ski-blog.com/ sayanything-24

    Please point out one person that has ever been “addicted” to payday loans. See, millions of people are addicted to gambling. We just prohibited offshore sports books and online casinos.

    My question is this–why not start with a Federal prohibition on all forms of gambling. Let’s start by shutting down Vegas, Atlantic City, state lottos, bingo parlors, and most importantly INDIAN CASINOS. The Indian Casinos were behind the Abramoff scandal. Talk about corruption.

    Cigarettes and Alcohol are bad for the poor too. Ever see a rap star walking around buying his grilz with money from the payday loan place? Nope, but he is puffin’ on a blunt and gots him a fo-dy. Bitch has a 9 unda the seat too, jus in case shit goes down. Let’s ban guns, alcohol, tobacco, payday loans, and gambling all at once.

    But if we did that, Edwards and the lawyers couldn’t sue gun manufacturers, cigarette companies and so on. The problem Edwards has with payday loans places is that he hasn’t figured out how to sue them and channel a dead baby into saying the payday loan place caused her death.

  • http://www.freerepublicans.com/ FreeRepublicans.com

    Payday loan companies are basically Legal Loansharks.

    The only difference is you won’t get knee-capped if you don’t pay.

    So long as they don’t physically hurt anyone – payday loaners, loan sharks, bookies, and anyone else that benefits from so-called victim-less crimes should be allowed to rip whomever they want off.

    /sarcasm

  • Lestat

    Of course we should. Usery has historically been illegal because it leads to indentured servitude which is not good public policy.

  • robert108

    Of course, we know that, in the leftie mind, the “proletariat” aren’t really responsible for the consequences of their actions; they need the State to take care of them.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/Anna/ Anna

    Yes, Yes, Yes, Justin I don’t have any problem with businesses of this sort. I can’t say I would recommend them but I would recommend the money making side of the business. I have nothing at all against making a profit if people are willing to pay. Just the same as I wouldn’t complain if Sam Walton was my relative. ;)

  • Bat One

    Indentured Servitude?????

    Proving beyond a doubt that weapons grade idiocy from the Left is not an endangered species after all.

  • robert108

    Lestat: “Usury”(the correct spelling) is a medieval term for “loaning money at interest”. It was coined by the Church of the time, and was a product of the economic ignorance of the time. In your case, it’s still true. You Marxists just don’t get it. It’s a transaction freely entered into by both parties. Get a life and an education.

  • robert108

    Those 0% credit cards that mention in the fine print that the rate can be raised to over 20% after a year seem pretty predatory.

    Only for the illiterate and the unattentive.

  • http://www.ski-blog.com/ sayanything-24

    Those who enable poor choices are just as responsible as those who make poor choices.

    Shut down the bars because they enable drunk driving.

  • 2Hotel9

    lestupid again shows its hajib. Usury is a major point of contention in Shar’ia. Any loaning of money at interest is a crime and sin against God according to lestupid and its Muslim owners.

    As for “predatory lenders”, perhaps Edwards is attempting to stamp out this particular fire before it flares up and scorches him. He being a trial lawyer, exactly how is his scale of and method of payment not “predatory lending”? He takes an exorbitant percentage from whatever settlement his client receives. They do not pay up front for his services, he loans them his services, at interest rates that are quite steep.

    Trial lawyers have been trying to backdoor this sort of thing for 20 years, they do not like the competition that these sorts of operations have created. Payday loan companies are often offshoots of financial companies that do legal settlement/insurance claim mass payouts. Cutting into the lawyers backend payoff.

    As long as people understand the terms and conditions of the payday loan it is their decision. Anna makes the very excellent point that often this is just a way to dig that hole faster and deeper. As the man with the spaghetti stains on his tunic said, buyer beware.

  • http://ewebsmith.com/ ews48

    Those 0% credit cards that mention in the fine print that the rate can be raised to over 20% after a year seem pretty predatory.

    Legalized loan sharking.

  • Bat One

    Those who enable poor choices are just as responsible as those who make poor choices.

    BULLSHIT!

  • Lysander

    One point of clarification:

    Virginia’s “over 80/over 20″ reckless driving statute has been on the books for over five years – this is not a new provision of the law. Reckless Driving by Speed is a Class 1 Misdemeanor, meaning a maximum penalty of $2,500.00 fine, twelve months in jail, or both, plus court costs.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    Simple. Just say no to “payday lenders”! You do not have to go there. Manage your money. Avoid spending on wants and focus on needs. Simple but true.

    A “national law” is just another big brother approach to all the “victim’s” problems. Of course, there would have to be a “small office” to handle these cases, headed up by LAWYERS!

  • robert108

    Bat: Actually, those who preach equality of outcome and entitlement to everything without earning it are the enablers of those who make poor financial decisions that lead them into debt.
    Of course, the lefties always infantilize their favored groups, who, in their view, cannot survive without their help.

  • http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/ Chief RZ

    Thanks Bat One. To Enabler: I have stated that the social-democrat’s “programs”, “war on poverty” etc have been a contributing factor to enabling those with shall we say, weaker minds (and bodies) to be seduced into thinking that big brother will take care of you. Perhaps they were looking for the parent(s) that were absent during their childhood. Who knows. The socialists need victims and they will pay off during riots like the 60s in return for basically stealing OPM.

  • Enablers of Poor Choices

    Those who enable poor choices are just as responsible as those who make poor choices.

  • jaymore

    Perhaps the best thing about all this controversy is that it has riled enough people to get them talking. Once we sweep away the cloud of apathy that’s been covering up this country, we’ll be on the way to creating useful dialog that hopefully will bring about change. Otherwise, for our great nation, it will truly be the beginning of the end. And payday loans? If they are made illegal, who is to say what will be made illegal next? Maybe YOUR business!

  • http://www.ski-blog.com/ sayanything-24

    Should conning old people be illegal?

    You mean Indian Casinos or Las Vegas?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/Anna/ Anna

    Accepting responsibility is free and there is no excuse for the “proletariat” to lack this virtue.

  • 2Hotel9

    These are just businesses. If there was no demand for their “product” they would not be in business at all. Long story short? Don’t get one of these loans for more than 1/2 the amount of your next paycheck, interest included. Don’t follow that simple rule and you will get eaten alive.

    Lots of people, for one reason or another have bad credit and no bank account. Payday loan brokers and pawn shops and liqour stores are the only alternative for cashing checks and acquiring loans open to them, until they rebuild their credit at least.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    The beauty of Federalism is that the states can experiment and come up with the best solution.

    Liberals hate that because liberalism is the worst solution can can’t stand up to competition.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    Issues that haven’t been broached here:

    1. The reason that you have check cashers and payday lenders charging high fees in bad neighborhoods is because banks justifiably don’t want to do business there. They’re tired of getting shot up, and there are no good business prospects there.

    If you want to put payday lenders out of business, hire more cops and support them. Then the banks will establish branches and put payday lenders and check cashers out of business.

    2. Edwards is wrong about them “just moving.” The clientele of such businesses simply cannot up & go to the next state to make dumb economic decisions; really they cannot really leave their own neighborhood because of those dumb decisions. That’s why you only find payday lenders in the “down” side of town. A city ordinance would suffice to regulate most payday lenders.

  • k_lunch

    You know, if you want to shut something down to protect the poor consider welfare. It’s obviously more of a trap than “predatory lenders.”

  • k_lunch

    Accepting responsibility is free and there is no excuse for the “proletariat” to lack this virtue.

    Anna, you forget that we enable them to shirk responisibility. Every time the poor need something, we create a program to provide it to them. They have devolved to the point that they have forgotten how to take care of themselves. We need to stop bailing them out and they will be forced to make good choices.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/Anna/ Anna

    k_lunch, You’re correct … kinda. Partially, we are to blame but at the same time, saying that just tends to give them another excuse.

  • Lestat

    Should conning old people be illegal?

  • Bat One

    Chief’s point is the only one that really matters. If you don’t borrow the money, either from a so-called “payday lender” or by using that 29.99% credit card, then there is no interest to worry about paying.

    People are not entitled to loans or credit cards, and it is not the responsibility of government to protect us from the consequences of our own bad decisions.

  • kbiel

    I think you are all missing a major point here. We can all debate whether payday loans should be regulated or outlawed or left as is, but what really bothers me about the quote is that Edwards wants a federal law for something that has always been the domain of the state.

  • Prof. Kenneth Rogers

    A National Law should be implemented stating that anyone charging rates that exceed fair lending laws could not get a license to operate a business.
    Fair lending laws apply to banking institutions that can not exceed 5% more than the highest bank lending rate. It’s usually set according to the prime rate and credit rating of the borrower. Highest would be 29.9
P;R at current standards.

  • robert108

    Of course, this typical Dem economic ignorance, and from the Marxist candidate to boot. Edwards, like all other Marxists, doesn’t understand the market, which exists to supply all existing demand. If these folks could get credit at a lower rate, they would, but considering the risk involved, their interest rates are what they should be. After all, no one is forcing them to get credit. Most of this is for invaders, anyway, who should go home. When Edwards tries to rig the market for credit, we all suffer.
    Everything he does is political grandstanding, anyway. Why doesn’t he loan his own money out to these people, and charge what he thinks is proper interest? No one is preventing him from doing that.
    Marxists just don’t understand financing, and think interest is “evil”. Go figure.

  • Lestat

    You mean Indian Casinos or Las Vegas?

    No, the only person bringing up gambling is you, as if that is the only financial problem people have.

    Usery has been illegal for a millenia. Thaere is a reason for it.

  • http://www.ski-blog.com/ sayanything-24

    Payday loan companies are basically Legal Loansharks.

    The only difference is you won’t get knee-capped if you don’t pay.

    So long as they don’t physically hurt anyone – payday loaners, loan sharks, bookies, and anyone else that benefits from so-called victim-less crimes should be allowed to rip whomever they want off.

    No Lestat, above they were compared to bookies and loan sharks. I made a comment that the left needs to tackle gambling too and they seem to agree. At least Dorgan does.

    Point is that bookies are illegal in most states so people go to online casinos or travel somewhere so they can gamble. Lotteries are legal so they go there instead. There are options. But what options are available when your car breaks down between paydays and you need $100 to get it working so that you can make it to work until the next payday? If you have other unpaid bills, a low credit rating, no assets, etc., you don’t have options. So you pay much higher rates than a good credit risk. Payday loans and subprime mortgages as well as pawn shops offer a service. Let us not forget that. If not for them, people may not be able to buy a house or pay their bills. The people are in the situation in the first place because they either lack job skills or financial management skills to avoid the situation.

    But back to gaming–this from five days ago:

    http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096415389

    Posted: July 12, 2007
    by: Jerry Reynolds / Indian Country Today

    WASHINGTON – Gaming, again? That was one reaction to a Senate hearing on tribal casino gaming June 28. Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., chairman of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, offered a ”discussion draft” of a bill that would further regulate Class III gaming through amendment to the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988…

    Kurt Luger, executive director of the Great Plains Indian Gaming Association in Bismarck, N.D., said he was ”absolutely, very surprised” by the hearing. The problems of regulatory authority in Indian gaming had been hashed out in the previous Congress, he said, when Republicans were the majority party and both chambers, the Senate and House of Representatives, hosted efforts to overhaul IGRA. With Democrats narrowly in the majority now in the current Congress, ”We thought we would be able to not have to deal with this [in] this session,” Luger said in an interview after the hearing.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Right because you know better than the person that needs the loan.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Should conning old people be illegal?

    Well, “conning” people implies trickery. If you’re asking me if I think committing fraud should be illegal, then yes.

    But what’s illegal about a Payday loan? If you go to a payday loan broker and enter into the terms of a loan of your own free will, knowing full well the terms, that’s hardly fraud or trickery.

    Stupidity, perhaps, but I think people should be free to be stupid if they want to be.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Seems to me that the government shouldn’t be in the habit of protecting people from their own bad choices.

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