Abstinence is 100% effective. Trying to teach abstinence in a school system with massive sex training programs isn’t so effective, because the kids are constantly programmed to be sexual. Duh. Had those kids been abstinent, she wouldn’t be pregnant.

From Lestats link:

The study found that teens who’d been through abstinence-only programs were less likely than those who’d received no sex ed to have been pregnant. However, the difference was not significant in statistical terms, which means the finding could have been due to chance.

and

While comprehensive sex ed did not clearly reduce the STD risk, there was a modest, but statistically insignificant reduced risk of engaging in sex. The abstinence-only approach had no effect on either factor, the researchers found.

So quite the opposite of what you claim: Neither is effective.

This is what I would have assumed from knowing how thick-skulled teenagers are.

For the Democrats to pick on this is about as stupid as when they go after her “lack of experience.” It’s a lot easier to troll through 143 days as a Senator, for instance, than it would be for two years as a Governor (where the buck stops).

So the Democrats want to come out as attacking pregnant teens? Let ‘em.

Cf

I’ll see if I an dig up these studies too.

I think what you will find is that sex education is important in reducing pregnancies and the spread of venereal diseases in adults.

I suspect the biggest culprit in the youth population is early sexualizaiton, which is a problem that isn’t solved by sex ed classes alone.

Sparkie,

I never suggested any of the nonsense you posted. No I’m no victim, nor is any teen. The reality is given the current cultural and political situation, absitinence is a tough sell, especially to teens. Cultural change is not to be made in Washington. The change I speak of would be voluntary and made in light of the socially destructive nature of some of our current cultural norms.

But the most comprehensive study to date shows that abstinence only education does nothing to prevent unwanted pregnancies or teen sex. So by all means, let’s keep this
unproductive policy.

Pure bullshit! Abstinence works every time, but trying to teach it to kids who have aready been sexualized by the sex instruction classes in the govt schools is difficult. Why not go for the thing that works, rather than the one that guarantees pregnancies and STDs? Why do you hate kids?

why is it when dems want to talk about true issues involving a candidate’s family, they are scandal hungry and partisan, but when republican’s spread rumors about McCain’s adopted daughter they are good Americans?

Abstinence only?!?! You have GOT to be joking!?!? It’s likely that abstinence only got the poor girl where she is. As you say -teenagers have sex. That doesn’t mean that they need to become parents before they are ready – - strike that – - elated to welcome a child into the world. Access to birth control prevents unwanted pregnancies and all of the moral dilemmas that a pregnant teenager can face. Is it 100% effective? No, but I bet the failure rate of abstinence only education is a hell of lot higher than 5%-10% (and those of us who actually had SexEd class can tell you that condoms used properly – - maybe something SexEd help with? – - are 98% effective and condoms + birth control pills puts the rate even higher).

William,

What, if anything, has Ms. Palin covered up?

My fiance and I got busy one 4th of July, she was 3 mo. pregnant on our wedding day. We were married 3 days after her 18th birthday. That was 18 years ago.

I wish these two all the best.

Nobody saying that these two can’t have a happy marriage. But the statistics tell that it is far less likely to work out.

The problem with abstinence only education is it is not taught correctly. The cumbaya way of teaching it is the problem. If they would be honest with these kids and tell them that the only way to 100% prevent any disease and pregnancy is abstinence, I think it would work a whole lot better. Especially if they did it the way some countries do it by showing them actual pictures these diseases actually do to the body!

I also think it is funny that a teenage daughter who is pregnant and the parents are staying engaged with is bad family values. I would much rather have her engaged and still supporting her daughter than having this kid alone and a burden to the system.

I think this is what is rubbing the Dems the wrong way! To be truly acceptable this kid should be on her own living on welfare.

The fact that these situations are so wrought with failure is one very good reason not to politicize it and make it any harder on these two kids than it already is.

I agree that this will be hard enough already, but if you don’t want this in the news don’t run for vice-president. This is the Palin family’s decision.

Before you extol “family values” to others, find the time to raise your own, because while many teens will have sex, I know mine have been taught to protect themselves.

How? And from what? I’d really like to know.

“So you feel others shouldn’t engage in premarital sex even though you did?”

It’s called “learning from experience”, moron. When you do something, and it turns out to be wrong, it’s the duty of an honest person to share what you learned with others who might benefit from it. It’s called “being responsible”.

The fact that the Palin’s are pro-life and that this could have been avoided with an abortion speaks well of the Palin’s convictions and where there priorities lie.

Just like the Dimocrats don’t want you to have a choice where your kids go to school, or how to defend your home, or how to insure your health, or how to save for retirement, or whether or not you wish to unionize your place of work, or what car you can drive, or what kind of food you can eat?

Huh woof?

If Bristol Palin had gotten more abstinence-only education she probably wouldn’t be in this predicament.

Abstinence-only education doesn’t work. How many of you are virgins?

Rob,

I’m not fogging up the argument at all. I’m scratching my head wondering how watching some teacher put a condom on a banana was going to help Bristol out. If she knew about condoms (which you admit) and chose not to use one anyway do you really think a semester-long class about condoms and birth control would help?

I think we already established the argument is not whether the kid knows how to use a condom, but whether he should be encouraged to do so. You’re a smart guy, so I’ll conclude that the disingenous attempt to argue a point that I never made is because you can’t think of a better response.

I know, given your stance on abortion, that you apparently think we should all just have loads of sex and then kill off any kids that come out of it but most of us would like to promote a bit more personal responsibility.

Can I assume that this irrelevant tidbit backs up the above? Also, why can’t I take personal responsibility for killing my unborn kid? I promise to feel very guilty about it for a little bit.

Sorry, throwing conservative bromides like “personal responsibility” around does not a logical argument make. Though you’re probably succeeding in convincing the other tea kettles around here.

I’m saddened. If McCain knew (and I wonder if he did), I’m surprised that the pregancy was not announced, up front.

1) You admit that “abstinence education” is an abject failure as a policy, or

2) We conclude that Ms. Palin is an abject failure as a mother for failing to “teach” her kid abstinence.

Both are false, but your partisan fear and hatred are obvious.

a little pissed about free market econ?

Sexualizing vulnerable children with sex instruction forced on them in govt schools is hardly “free market econ”, moron.

Sexualizing vulnerable children with sex instruction forced on them in govt schools is hardly “free market econ”, moron.

Exactly. We all admit the sexual vulnerabililty of teens and have laws against statuatory rape for that very reason. However, we allow pop-culture to introduce even pre-teens to sexuality and sexual behavior in a manner which is in some ways extreme and without any respectable boundaries. On top of that, any other instruction which would set respectable boundaries based on common sense, are mocked and derided. Only in a fools mind does that make sense.

Sparkie,

If you insist on being an ignorant antogonist you’ll never recognize the obvious flaws in your posts.

Your last post was a great example. Because you didn’t get your fiance’ pregnant and I did, only Christians have this problem? Wow. What a joke.

HG’s testimony is mine.

It’s been 42 for us.

So, all the best Bristol, these things work out.

Sorry, throwing conservative bromides like “personal responsibility” around does not a logical argument make.

To the contrary; sound principles are always best, even if you lying lefties don’t like it. Personal responsibility is not a “bromide”, although it’s revealing that you think that way.

Let’s try this another way: Is there any documented proof that the current, liberal-dictated, sex-ed curricula, often from elementary school forward and despite parental objections, has been successful in reducing, much less eliminating teen pregnancy?

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=e1ae58dc-6ac5-4662-8d65-b1707d92c3b9&k=50795

Your turn. You provide a study about how well abstinence only works.

Let’s try this another way: Is there any documented proof that the current, liberal-dictated, sex-ed curricula, often from elementary school forward and despite parental objections, has been successful in reducing, much less eliminating teen pregnancy?

Everyone understands that Planned Parenthood, the nation’s biggest taxpayer-subsidized abortion provider and one of the Democrats’ most favored Special Interest groups hawks for policies that encourage teen sex and easy access to abortion without the cumbersome bother of parental notification. So perhaps a little less hyper-sanctimony on the part of those on the Left is in order here.

Rob,

How do you know she didn’t? You don’t. You’re just running on emotion and assumptions like most opponents of abstinence education do. For all we know Bristol and her boyfriend used a condom and it didn’t work. Or they used the pill and it didn’t work.

Like I said, I’m only guessing about Bristol’s situation. But my guess does come from experience growing up an in abstinence education environment. So I could be wrong as to Bristol, but I am certainly speaking from a place of knowledge in regards to our general abstinence v. condoms debate. In other words, that’s how I’ve seen most teen pregnancies come about in my high school.

And if you think Bristol Palin didn’t know anything about condoms or the pill you’re kidding yourself.

Assuming, again, that my guess was correct, I never argued that she didn’t know anything about condoms or the pill. I believe the crux of our argument revolves around whether the kid is encouraged to seek out birth control, not if he’s ever heard of it. Way fog up the argument.

BTW. It sounds kind of funny to say “abstinence education.” Which part is educational as opposed to prescriptive?

Before you extol “family values” to others, find the time to raise your own, because while many teens will have sex, I know mine have been taught to protect themselves.

As a parent who has faced the delima twice, I am not condeming Ms. Palin, as a parent. But, as a political candidate, here vivals may be asking, “what else is she going to “cover up”?

I’m a married father of two. What’s your point?

Were you a virgin before you were married and only broke that virginity after had your vows?

Also, when you describe American pop culture as that of “barnyard animals”, your vitriol takes on a decidedly Jihadist tinge.

I was describing you.

Also, for someone so aghast at being mischaracterized, you sure dish what you can’t take.

I’ve taken a lot from you on this thread. However, how else would you describe your repeated defense of pop-culture sexuality and its affect on adolescents?

Survey the number of lesbians, for example, coming out of Catholic all-girl high schools and compare it to the number of lesbians who come out of public high schools,

Go ahead, it is your argument.

Its like teaching kids that guns are bad instead of educating them about how to use them properly and responsibly.

That is exactly what I have been saying. But, that isn’t what is happening, and the most influential elements of society are actively opposed to and prevent respectable and responsible instruction as well as promote the risky and irresponsible.

Advertising is a minor part of the problem. As I have said, regulation is not the answer. It is pop-culture that suffers from a lack of responsible sex ed and mocks the same. They display the same hostile and antagonist attitude to responsible sexuality you do in this thread. Attitudes need checked and adjusted if progress is ever to be made.

Sparkie,

You managed yet another fallacy, false equivalence. Islamist? Then another generalizaton about all of pop culture? Dude, what gives? Is this just your hatred for anything remotely socially conservative? You might want to get that checked.

Your defense of sexuality as portrayed by pop-culture is somewhat bizarre given the extremes which are so common. I suppose you think it’s cute when adolescents are encouraged along these lines?

Don’t need to. Ask HG.

I’ve been clear about my approach. Sparkie just doesn’t want to get it.

Your assertion that all conservatives want abstinence to be taught cannot be made legitimate by 3 people on a blog

You’ll have to ignore Sparkie’s inability to avoid fallacy. He’s a little excited about this issue and is having trouble offering anything of substance.

Actually what I think what the study says is that while there is a statistically insignificant rate in having sex, there is a 60% drop in pregnancy. But I have not been able to find the actual study on the web.

…but like it or not we’re all responsible for our children. And when one of our daughters gets pregnant underage, it doesn’t reflect well on us.

I would disagree with you there. I believe it is how you react that is the true reflection of the family. The Palin’s are doing the best they can in a bad situation. They are not killing the kid, giving him or her a good home and standing with the daughter when it would be easy to do something different.

Try here… http://www.acuf.org/index.asp

You confuse talk-show hosts, religious leaders and even politicians with conservatism.

We praise political leaders when they act conservatively.

Well you tell me who speaks for conservatives if George Bush, John McCain and the Republican Party don’t?

Does James Dobson speak for conservatives? http://mojoey.blogspot.com/2006/09/james-dobson-on-abortion.html

Rob:

But given that, I don’t think that means we stop telling them that not having sex is the best way to avoid serious repercussions.

Agreed.

But people like Lestat need to get off their superior-than-thou attitudes too.

When it comes to teenagers and sex, I have had my share of experiences too when I was growing up. I’ve learned that there isn’t much you can really do as a parent to influence them on issues like this, you just have to hope for common sense.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to hide from them the information they need to make as wise a choice as they can for themselves however. But the reality of the limit of our control over teenagers doesn’t warrant the amount of incessant gloating of ignoramuses like Lestat and dweebomatics like RBB.

So you feel others shouldn’t engage in premarital sex even though you did?

The consequences of doing so can make for unecessary challenges and remove some good opportunities.

Practically speaking, it is the choice of every individual. Without the cultural and social pressures, and with the support of society and peers, that choice would be more often the right choice for the individual.

Face it. Society not only condones but promotes not only pre-marital sex but teen sex. Raging teenage hormones are difficult enough to overcome, but add in pop culture and peer pressure, and abstinence almost becomes impossible. When you have what should be respectable members of our society (teachers, nurses, etc.) giving kids condoms, how the hell can the virtue, responsibility, and respectability of abstinence ever get through? If abstinence education is ever to be sufficient, our culture is going to have to change… a lot!

Look, if you would stop with the antoginism long enough to listen, you’d know exactly what I’m saying.

That has always been Sparkie’s problem, although he does seem crazier than usual lately.

But how much of a political issue is this, really?

I think it is only relevant to her position on abstinence only education and on her determination to run for office. I will not make any attack on her daughter’s character, bur the reality is that those attacks will be made and it will be tough on her.

So you feel others shouldn’t engage in premarital sex even though you did?

This argument, the hypocrisy accusation writ large, betrays a willful, adolescent stupidity almost beyond endurance. Any adult with a modicum of honesty will admit there are things in his/her past that ought not to have been done, or the consequences of which one would not wish on any other, much less a child or someone else near and dear. Illness, both physical and mental, severe pain, terror, the premature loss of a loved one, the haunting spectre of having taken another human life, these are all things we would not wish on those we care for.

To disparage a parent for hoping that their children do not make the same mistakes, and suffer the same consequences as they did, for hoping for their children enjoy a better, safer, less painful life, is simply idiotic.

If Bristol Palin had gotten more abstinence-only education she probably wouldn’t be in this predicament.

LOL!!! Good one.

Just what I thought, Arbuckle. There is no link to back you up and you are 100% phony! Hahahahahahaha!

Oh! Arbuckle! I know! Just link us to one of YOUR previous bloviations on that issue!!!

AAAHHAHAHAHHA!

Conservatives generally want abstinence education taught along with other ‘safe sex’ methods.

No they don’t. They want abstinence only. It’s liberals who want a comprehensive program. Nobody wants to encourage teenage sex. But the goal should be to prevent teenage pregnancy and abstinence only doesn’t.

What we should be doing is focusing on helping young woman’s self esteem where they don’t feel they have to have sex to be loved. We need to focus on the consequences of unwanted pregnancies and how it effects their future. That is the main cause of teenage sex.

Listen: Teenagers have sex. There’s not a lot we can do to stop them. But that doesn’t mean we should condone the sex and start giving the condoms.

I would rather have a policy that works than one that doesn’t. I agree that teenagers have sex (somehow it never seemed to be this way when I was a teenager ) and abstinence only education does little to prevent this.

It’s not the failure of teaching abstinence; it’s the failure of the kids to resist the constant temptations that surround them from the permissive culture.

I thought sex education along with learning about birth control was going to lower teen pregnancies.

How’s that working out?

Well studies show that it works where it is tried, but because funding has been tied to abstinence only, it isn’t tried nearly enough.

Sparkie,

You are one convoluted mind.

No I’m not advocating any regulation. I’m advocating wisdom. Through education and mutual respect, society could come to accept abstinence as a good choice instead of mocking and deriding it.

Look, if you would stop with the antoginism long enough to listen, you’d know exactly what I’m saying.

But liberals do not want abstinance education taught at all.

Interesting, and true.

[How about one of your famous links, Arbuckle, proving that my earlier statement is false.]

Gee Sparkie, sounds like you agree that there is a problem after all.

HG
…brings some Islamist vitriol to bear on the situation.

the only behavior they approve of mirrors that of barnyard animals

our sociey accomodates risky sexual behavior

pop culture presents sexuality very irresponsibly and makes a mockery of reasonable boundaries

peer pressure reflects and reinforces the unhealthy pop culture sexuality

Like I said HG, you should fight to ban the tapedecks, the DVDs, MTV, etc. For the good of humanity. Your kids don’t have friends of course, that would mean peer pressure. You still haven’t told us whether or not you support the use of Burkas and Hijabs? I take it your kids aren’t dolled up like little whores like some of the 8 year olds one sees running around in Miami with fake breasts. (Just kidding. Most parents make their kids wait til 13 for those.)

Rob, busy lying

I know, given your stance on abortion, that you apparently think we should all just have loads of sex and then kill off any kids that come out of it but most of us would like to promote a bit more personal responsibility.

That is a non-sequitor if ive seen one. Can you break it down more. If someone is pro-abortion, that does not mean they do not advocate contraceptives.

Personal responsibility on Rob’s view: having 10 kids, then having the gov’t help you pay for them.

Practically speaking, it is the choice of every individual.

Damn practicality. At least you know the right choice everyone should make, individually. You evidence that well here

Without the cultural and social pressures, and with the support of society and peers, that choice would be more often the right choice for the individual.

Interesting observation: Conservatives generally want abstinence education taught along with other ‘safe sex’ methods.

Interesting, but false.

What are you guys going to say to the Christian kooks out in Utah (that you back) who wish to marry and rape 13 to 16 yr old females? When should the abstinence education stop? 12?

HG
You think abstinence is ‘the bomb’. Duh. You are against extra-marital sex. You are against pop culture. You think advertising and MTV are depraved outlets of Western sluttyness. You have made your position clear. I was just wondering about Burkas? What’s your position on those? Hajibs?

HG and Gene
Both impregnated women when they weren’t married. I’ve never done that. Apparently its a Christian problem. They’re trying to save US from THEM. And the Christian moralists are ranting about saving society from the leftists! Bwahahaha! If you guys would only follow your own advice, as you both wish others would.

Too funny.

Gene, did her dad have an over-under or a pump action?

pp
I’m glad you are amused. Lestat has quoted your party policy for you. Not satiated? Here’s the link.

I’m with Carrick.

Teenagers have sex, and they don’t like to listen to adults. But given that, I don’t think that means we stop telling them that not having sex is the best way to avoid serious repercussions.

pp
Nice spin. You are making fun of us because we associate the views of your party, their pres, their candidate, their gasbag, and various commentators with the ‘conservative’ platform. And you are still maintaining that we are reaching?

Ooops. Lestat, if you aren’t a “she”, apologies.

HG
So you feel others shouldn’t engage in premarital sex even though you did?

pp
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ha.

Ha.

HG
Was her dad holding an over-under or a pump action?

Abstinence-only education doesn’t work. How many of you are virgins?

I’m a married father of two. What’s your point?

And by the way, putting murders in jail hasn’t stopped murder in America. But I don’t think we should stop putting them in jail.

There would be more they could have done if she didn’t get pregmant, Rob. As a parent the is always more you could/should/would have done better or differently.

You say you’re not calling then bad people, but you say this doesn’t reflect well on them. What’s the difference and what do you mean?

It doesn’t reflect well on them because their underaged daughter got pregnant.

It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re bad people because we’re all imperfect people and parents.

Perhaps Bristol Palin would have had a different result if she was encouraged to seek out birth control.

How do you know she didn’t? You don’t. You’re just running on emotion and assumptions like most opponents of abstinence education do. For all we know Bristol and her boyfriend used a condom and it didn’t work. Or they used the pill and it didn’t work.

I’m more than a little tired of people going around pretending like condoms are a sure-fire preventative for disease and pregnancy. We can never know for sure, but I’d be willing to bet that more pregnancies are caused by kids duped into thinking their condoms are (ahem) bullet-proof than kids who forgo contraception because they’re embarrassed.

And if you think Bristol Palin didn’t know anything about condoms or the pill you’re kidding yourself.

If Bristol Palin had gotten more abstinence-only education she probably wouldn’t be in this predicament.

Listen: Teenagers have sex. There’s not a lot we can do to stop them. But that doesn’t mean we should condone the sex and start giving the condoms.

The best way to avoid pregnancy, and STD’s, is abstinence. Period. And no amount of contorted liberal logic is going to change that.

HG
I have no sympathies for social conservatives.

Can either of you provide a link to prove that conservatives only want abstinence education taught?

Don’t need to. Ask HG. r108. gene.

Advertising is a minor part of the problem.

Yea right. Ever walked past Abercrombie and Fitch at the mall? They display large placards of skantily clad teens in their front windows. Ever seen the Abercrombie and Fitch clothing on every last kid, probably including yours?

You just want to have your cake and eat it too. Sex sells.

Sounds like Bristol had a CHOICE.

“We’re proud of Bristol’s decision to have her baby,”

Palin wouldn’t allow that to others.