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Wednesday, April 18, 2007

SCOTUS Upholds Partial Birth Abortion Ban

A true victory for those who recognize abortion as an abhorrent violation of an unborn child’s rights.

WASHINGTON (CNN) --The Supreme Court Wednesday upheld a controversial congressional law banning a specific abortion procedure critics call “partial birth,” a ruling that could portend enormous social, legal, and political implications for the divisive issue.

The sharply divided 5-4 ruling could prove historic, and offer a possible signal of the new Roberts court’s willingness to someday revisit the basic right to abortion guaranteed in the 1973 Roe v. Wade case.

At issue now is the constitutionality of a federal law banning a type of abortion typically performed by doctors in the middle to late second trimester. The legal sticking point was that the law lacked a “health exception” for a woman who might suffer serious medical complications, something the justices have said in the past is necessary when considering abortion restrictions

Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia and Kennedy were the majority.  Predictably, the liberal Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, John Paul Stevens, David Souter and Stephen Breyer were the dissenters.

Here’s more from Reuters:

The upheld law makes it a crime for a doctor to perform an abortion when the “entire fetal head” or “any part of the fetal trunk past the navel” is outside the woman’s uterus.

The procedure, which often occurs in the second trimester of pregnancy, is known medically as intact dilation and extraction.

This was the proper decision.  The idea that a child, pulled partially from its mother’s womb put he/she mere inches from living completely separate from her body, can be killed simply because the mother doesn’t want it or bringing it to term might put her health at risk is ridiculous.  To believe that it isn’t ridiculous is to believe that there is some fundamental difference between a child immediately before emerging from the womb that makes it “not a person” as compared to the same child immediately after it has emerged from the womb.

Which is such an arbitrary, absurd distinction that the people making it should be ridiculed for the doofuses they are.  But they insist that we respect them and champion their cause.  Because they’re fighting for, uh, “women’s rights” or something.

Comments

Avatar for Dave

an unborn child’s rights.

I must have a different Constitution than you, because nowhere in mine does it grant fetuses any rights. But I suppose it’s a living document open to interpretation from anyone--it’s just a giant inkblot.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 10:08 am
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The constitution grants rights to persons.  If you’re a moron and try to define a child at conception as something other than a person at the very beginning of its developmental process then yeah, I guess you could say that the constitution doesn’t apply.

And you’d still be a moron.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 10:19 am

I don’t think it takes a moron to consider a fetus a potential person rather than a person proper.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 18, 2007 at 10:53 am

I must have a different Constitution than you, because nowhere in mine does it grant fetuses any rights.

Dave,

My copy of the Constitution doesn’t say a thing about abortion, either.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 10:54 am

I don’t think it takes a moron to consider a fetus a potential person rather than a person proper.

MikeA,

And what sort of moral moron would use that distinction of yours as justification for sticking a hypodermic needle into the head of that “potential person” and sucking it’s brains out?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 10:58 am

MikeA: Instead of using “fetus” in your thinking, try using the correct term: “human fetus”.  It might clear things up for you.


The secret of financial success:

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robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 11:06 am
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What is “potential” about a human fetus?  A fetus is a child.  One at the very earliest stages of its development.

Remember that the way our bodies develop is a process, an uninterrupted contiuum, that begins at conception and ends at death.  Trying to pick a point within that contiuum and say “before this there is no person, but after there is” is absurd on its very face.

If we say that a child is not a person until it emerges from the womb why not say that the child is not a person until he/she can crawl?  Or talk?

That would be every bit as arbitrary.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 11:24 am
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Bat One:

My copy of the Constitution doesn’t say a thing about abortion, either.

Great, then we’re on the same boat.

If you believe the Constitution contains a “right” to abortion, then you would oppose allowing the states to vote on it--you’d agree with the current SCOTUS position.

If you believe the Constitution contains a magical “fetal right to life”, then you would also oppose allowing the states to vote on it, unless you honestly believe that individual states should have the option of directly violating the Constitution.

If you know how to read, and know that the Constitution says nothing about abortion either way (it does not say human fetuses have a right to life or due process, nor does it say women have a right to abortion), then you believe that the correct approach is allowing the state legislatures to vote on it however they’d like--ya know, states’ rights and all that jazz.

Rob wants to have his cake and eat it too.

And this is why Rob is fat.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 11:31 am
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r108: 

Instead of using “fetus” in your thinking, try using the correct term: “human fetus”.  It might clear things up for you.

Great. And are “human fetuses” protected by the Constitution? Let’s check!

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

Hm.... no mention of “human fetuses” here. I asked my mildly retarded brother if he knew who was protected by the 14th Amendment, and he immediately and correctly replied “persons.” (He then took a nap.) He knew this because, despite his mental retardation, he can still read at above a 3rd grade level.

It’s not too late to go back to school, robert108. Never...never give up.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 11:37 am

Dave, you can obfuscate all you want but the real difference between you and Rob [and many of the other regulars that comment here) is that you consider the human fetus to be a thing and we consider it to be a person.  The rights of persons are protected by the Constitution.  And as Rob pointed out most vigorously is that the so-called transition of a fetus from a thing to a person is arbitrary and cannot be justified medically, rationally or by any other mechanism.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on April 18, 2007 at 11:41 am
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you consider the human fetus to be a thing and we consider it to be a person.

I suppose it’s just a matter of personal interpretation. Let’s leave it to the voters, mmkay?

And as Rob pointed out most vigorously is that the so-called transition of a fetus from a thing to a person is arbitrary

So rather than drawing the line at which we grant personhood in a difficult place, we should draw it in an obviously wrong one (conception). Is this what you’re saying?

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 11:45 am
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If you believe the Constitution contains a magical “fetal right to life”, then you would also oppose allowing the states to vote on it, unless you honestly believe that individual states should have the option of directly violating the Constitution.

Except, in order to believe that unborn children don’t have Constitutional rights you have to believe that unborn children aren’t people.

Which is an absurd definition, as I’ve already pointed out.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 11:50 am

So rather than drawing the line at which we grant personhood in a difficult place, we should draw it in an obviously wrong one (conception). Is this what you’re saying?

That line have been already drawn by the heads of Catholic church at Vatican II where a person exists from conception to natural death.

Frankly I would like to see this come to a vote.  Then you would see that most people believe the same as Vatican II not supporting the death culture you represents.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on April 18, 2007 at 12:03 pm

If you believe the Constitution contains a magical “fetal right to life”, then you would also oppose allowing the states to vote on it, unless you honestly believe that individual states should have the option of directly violating the Constitution.

Dave,

I would agree with just about all of your constitutional analysis, except for the paragraph I’ve quoted above.

You posit that the “right to life” of a fetus is separate and legally distinct from that of the rest of us.  I do not subscribe to that distinction, nor can I find reference or allusion to any such distinction in my copy of the Constitution.

While I regard abortion as morally reprehensible, it is clearly NOT a question to be decided universally by the US Supreme Court.  Instead, the only constitutionally permissible solution is for each of the separate states’ legislatures to craft their own regulations reflecting the will of the people in each state.

There are plenty of other areas in which state codes, laws, and regulations differ from oone state to another.  Taxation, business incorporation and regulation, driving, education funding, criminal and civil codes and procedures, even the structures of state legislatures varies from one state to another.  There is no reason for the question of abortion to be treated any differently.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Instead, the only constitutionally permissible solution is for each of the separate states’ legislatures to craft their own regulations reflecting the will of the people in each state.

bat. that was the case before Wade as most states had laws that regulated abortions.  Unfortunately all these laws became invalid after the Wade decision.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on April 18, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Avatar for Dave

Instead, the only constitutionally permissible solution is for each of the separate states’ legislatures to craft their own regulations reflecting the will of the people in each state.

Agreed. This is true because the Constitution neither specifically allows nor specifically prohibits abortion. If it did either, we could not allow the states to make a decision on it, because states cannot pass unconstitutional laws.

If you believe that fetuses are protected by the 14th amendment (IOW, you are privy to exclusive knowledge that our Founding Fathers specifically wanted the 5th Amendment to protect human embryos), you cannot simultaneously say you want the issue of abortion to be decided by the State legislatures (because you’re saying that the Constitution forbids abortion, and states can’t defy the Constitution).

Is this how you feel?

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 12:17 pm
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Dave is right in that if we pro-lifers define the unborn child as a person (and we all do as that’s the only correct definition) then the states cannot legally decide the abortion issue.  The unborn children would have 5th amendment protections.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 12:20 pm
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Except, in order to believe that unborn children don’t have Constitutional rights you have to believe that unborn children aren’t people.

Of course they aren’t.

Rob, do you know the differences between persons and humans? Or are you so delusional as to think the two terms are identical?

More importantly than what you or I think “person” means is what the Founding Fathers thought. Unless you know that they wanted fetuses to have Dur Process rights, you’re just interpreting...you’re no different from the guys on the other side of the aisle who just “know” that the “liberty” provision of the 14th Amendment means the “liberty” to have an abortion.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 12:26 pm

Bat One...I suppose it would take a “mental moron” who believes that a human fetus is unquestionably alive but is not unquestionably a person.

Rob...I don’t believe that a human fetus is a child which explains why I don’t accept your argument. I agree that the starting point is arbitrary and I have arbitrarily selected the time of birth as the significant determinant because it is at that point that the new human need not necessarily depend on its mother for its survival.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 18, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Avatar for Dave

Dave is right in that if we pro-lifers define the unborn child as a person (and we all do as that’s the only correct definition) then the states cannot legally decide the abortion issue.  The unborn children would have 5th amendment protections.

Then you have absolutely no desire in letting the people vote on this issue. You want to let 9 unelected and unaccountable old men decide an extremely contentious issue for the entire country.

This, of course, directly contradicts almost everything you’ve ever written on this blog about abortion. Like here:

Roe vs. Wade ruled that it was unconstitutional for states to pass laws making abortions illegal.  Basically, Roe denied the states the ability to decide the abortion issue for themselves.

I think all states should have that ability back.  Roe shouldn’t be overturned so that all abortions will be made illegal.  Roe should be overturned so that the people in every state of this union have the right to do what South Dakota did tonight.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 12:34 pm
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I am only going to spell this one out once.

All men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights.
The Declaration of Independence (often used by the supreme court as a tool to determine to motives of the founding fathers)

All men past, present and future.

So if you want the right to life, guaranteed by a 200 year old document then you have to give that right to other future men. Or fetus as you call them.

Go ahead make a feeble attempt at arguing that one.

Ted on April 18, 2007 at 12:45 pm
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Then you have absolutely no desire in letting the people vote on this issue. You want to let 9 unelected and unaccountable old men decide an extremely contentious issue for the entire country.

Right.  Because it’s a constitutional right, moron.  I don’t want to let people vote on whether or not rape should be legal either.

This, of course, directly contradicts almost everything you’ve ever written on this blog about abortion. Like here:

Not everything I’ve ever written, but yeah some things.  Because I’m not infallible, and as I live and learn sometimes my positions change.

Is that ok with you, Davey?  You going to tell me that you’ve never changed your mind on something?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 12:45 pm
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Rob...I don’t believe that a human fetus is a child which explains why I don’t accept your argument.

And that is a completely absurd, facile position to have.  Not logical in the least.

I agree that the starting point is arbitrary and I have arbitrarily selected the time of birth as the significant determinant because it is at that point that the new human need not necessarily depend on its mother for its survival.

So what happens as technology evolves and the viability point for unborn children reaches closer and closer to conception?  You just going to say “Oh, well I guess they were people after all?”

Life begins at conception.  That the first 9 months of a living human’s development takes place in the mother’s womb is irrelevant for this discussion.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 12:48 pm
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Life begins at conception.

Is that what you think, or what our the writers of the 5th and 14th amendments think? Because if it’s just what you think, I fail to see how it’s relevant here.
Dave on April 18, 2007 at 12:51 pm
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Go ahead make a feeble attempt at arguing that one.

The Declaration of Independence is not legally binding.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 12:53 pm

bat. that was the case before Wade as most states had laws that regulated abortions.

Doc,

My answer was predicated on the notion that Roe was incorrectly decided constitutionally, a view now widely held by legal scholars, jurists, and commentators on both sides of the partisan aisle.  The current consensus seems to be that the reasoning used in Roe was specious, that the “right to privacy” cited by the court in Roe is at best tenuous and does not extend to abortion, and that the question of abortion is one that should be left to the various state legislatures to determine.

My apologies for any confusion.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 01:26 pm

...you cannot simultaneously say you want the issue of abortion to be decided by the State legislatures (because you’re saying that the Constitution forbids abortion, and states can’t defy the Constitution).

Is this how you feel?

Dave,

You are gratuitously putting words in my mouth.  Don’t!  My argument against Roe is a legal one, specifically that it is bad law, an over-extension of a “right” not specifically found in the Constitution but tactfully camouflaged in one of that document’s revered penumbras.  The question of abortion is a political question that should more properly be decided by the various states’ legislatures, not the courts.

That legal argument against the Roe decision is separate from my personal belief that abortion is morally unconscionable.  I would fight just as hard against the legalization of abortion at the state level, as I would fight for the overturning of the Roe decision and the return of the question of abortion to the state legislatures.  And yes, I would feel the same way if the decision in Roe had banned abortion altogether.  The Court had no business taking the Roe case in the first place.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 01:40 pm
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The constitution grants rights to persons.

I suppose that’s why no one rabbleroused for fetal rights until the 1970s. 

Clearly, the rights of the fetus were in the constitution all along - it’s just that no one noticed it for the first 200 years.

jpe on April 18, 2007 at 01:41 pm
Avatar for Dave

The question of abortion is a political question that should more properly be decided by the various states’ legislatures, not the courts.

Then we agree on it. (Politically, that is. I have no moral problems with abortion.)

You must disagree very strongly with Rob’s position--that is, his call for the Supreme Court to decide abortion for everyone, not allowing the states to decide themselves.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 01:53 pm

You must disagree very strongly with Rob’s position--that is, his call for the Supreme Court to decide abortion for everyone, not allowing the states to decide themselves.

Dave,

Overturning Roe does not by itself “decide abortion for everyone.” But if you have in fact correctly stated Rob’s position, then, yes, he and I disagree.

And if either of us was a typical liberal, this is the point at which a virulently nasty tantrum would begin over the question.  Fortunately, both of us are conservatives… which explains both our reasonableness and our civility.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 02:16 pm
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Bat, I used to agree with your - that abortion was a state’s rights issue - but I perhaps you could comment on my position stated thusly:

A conceived child is a person.  Thus the 5th amendment applies to that person and he/she cannot be deprived life without due process of law.  Any law making it legal to deprive that person of life (i.e. a pro-abortion law) would be explicitly unconstitutional, no?

I know this will cause Davey to go nuts because then “THE COURT WOULD BE DECIDING THE ISSUE FOR EVERYONE!!!!!”, but this is a legitimate place for that I believe.  The constitution is clear on the matter.  Persons may not deprived life without due process.

So the question is: Is a conceived child a person or a clump of cells?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 02:43 pm
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Rob wants to have his cake and eat it too.

And this is why Rob is fat.

Yeah, but the cake tastes good.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 02:48 pm

1973 did not have the technology that we have today to support what Doctors believed for the times. Today IF we take a look at technology? We know better than that. Abortion IS unconstitutional. No doubt about it. Let the doctors come back today & testify that a pregnancy is only a clumb of cells. OR a blob up until the 3rd month. They all know better today and there is absolutely no argument. The ONLY argument is it is my body, I will do what I want. AND that is UNconstitutional.

Zsa Zsa on April 18, 2007 at 02:58 pm

Rob,

Actually, I don’t disagree with your argument at all.  But I think the proper sequence would be for Roe to be overturned, returning the question of abortion regulation and control to the state legislatures.  From there, a judicial determination of “person-hood” and due process would take place, ultimately leading back to SCOTUS and the decision we both favor.  To do otherwise would be to validate the justiciability of Roe.

Our judicial process is meant to be time-consuming and tedious.  Presumably this enhances the deliberation afforded such questions as well as the respect given to court decisions.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 02:59 pm
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But I think the proper sequence would be for Roe to be overturned, returning the question of abortion regulation and control to the state legislatures.  From there, a judicial determination of “person-hood” and due process would take place, ultimately leading back to SCOTUS and the decision we both favor.

That would be an appropriate sequence of events.  So we really don’t disagree at all.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 03:06 pm

At 6 & 7 weeks a heart beat can be heard… You don’t have to be a genius to figure that is a life inside the mother… Abortion is nothing but a procedure that ends a life. AND usually NOT to protect the life of the mother.

Zsa Zsa on April 18, 2007 at 03:08 pm

So we really don’t disagree at all.

Rob,

So it would seem.

There goes a perfectly good excuse for a hateful little liberal temper tantrum.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 18, 2007 at 03:22 pm

Hm.... no mention of “human fetuses” here.

There is no difference, therefore no need to “mention” one.  Isn’t that obvious?  If human fetuses weren’t regarded as persons, that certainly would have been mentioned as an exception.  Since it wasn’t, they must be included.  Seems patently obvious to me.  You attempt to make a decision(for political purposes) to interpret our Constitution in such a way as to justify arbitrary killing of our youngest and most vulnerable citizens.


The secret of financial success:

If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve it.  Even if you can afford it, that’s no reason to buy it.

robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 03:36 pm

Rob said

Life begins at conception.

No argument here.

That the first 9 months of a living human’s development takes place in the mother’s womb is irrelevant for this discussion.

You find it irrelevant but I don’t nor does the majority of citizens in any western democracy. It’s certainly not an issue with a clear cut answer in terms of the morality but until you can change society’s opinion to accord with your’s then you’re going to have to live with it.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 18, 2007 at 05:39 pm

r108...fetuses aren’t citizens. FYI only.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 18, 2007 at 05:40 pm

MikeA: Remember that “human fetus” thing?  A human fetus inside it’s illegal alien mother is a US citizen if it remains in the US.  FYI.


The secret of financial success:

If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve it.  Even if you can afford it, that’s no reason to buy it.

robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 06:29 pm

R108… I was just going to say that. You took the words right out of my mouth!

Zsa Zsa on April 18, 2007 at 06:32 pm

ZZ:  All great minds run in the same track; or, fools think alike.  Take your pick.


The secret of financial success:

If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve it.  Even if you can afford it, that’s no reason to buy it.

robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 06:33 pm

R108...You have a brilliant mind!

Zsa Zsa on April 18, 2007 at 06:34 pm

MikeA: FYI, if you do something that results in the death of a human fetus, against it’s mother’s wishes, you will be prosecuted for murder, manslaughter, or the like.  Same as if you did it to any other citizen.


The secret of financial success:

If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve it.  Even if you can afford it, that’s no reason to buy it.

robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 06:42 pm

The abortionists really hate that!

Zsa Zsa on April 18, 2007 at 06:45 pm

r108...I believe it depends where you are. I found this overview helpful.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 18, 2007 at 08:42 pm
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You find it irrelevant but I don’t nor does the majority of citizens in any western democracy. It’s certainly not an issue with a clear cut answer in terms of the morality but until you can change society’s opinion to accord with your’s then you’re going to have to live with it.

So your answer is: The majority is always right?

Gosh, Mike.  How enlightening.

I fail to understand how you can say that life begins at conception, but then say that it doesn’t matter if you end that life as long as it’s during the first nine months (or however many months until the arbitrary, unspecific date of viability) of development.

It seems to me that the life/no life thing is pretty black and white.  Either we have a human life, and thus a person, or we don’t.

I know you liberals love your shades of gray, but give me a break.  You’re really stretching here.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 18, 2007 at 08:59 pm

Rob: At best, it’s a nit-picky, semantic, parsing argument.  They like to use the term “fetus” because it dehumanizes the baby, which is the first step to killing it.  They object to using words that dehumanize minorities and their special groups, but they don’t mind dehumanizing all the babies who are killed each year.  The assertion that a human being, fetus or not, is not a person is ridiculous, but shows how far they will go to destroy the fabric of traditional society, which is the first step to implementing totalitarian socialism.


The secret of financial success:

If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve it.  Even if you can afford it, that’s no reason to buy it.

robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 09:18 pm
Avatar for HG

After reading the first 26 comments it is apparent that the question of whether or not an unborn child is a person is vitally important to each side.  Only omniscience can answer that question decidedly for all.  Either we consult God, or the universe, or we admit no consensus.  The prior would divide the two sides into an unknown number, and the latter doesn’t resolve the question. 

What is really absurd, and borders on madness, is that those who admit no consensus on the left appear to err on the side of destroying “potential life” over preserving “potential life”.  It would seem that before any sane person could reach such an extreme conclusion and fight to impose it on all of society, there ought to exist an answer to the question which has broad unanimity.

HG on April 18, 2007 at 09:50 pm
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Rob:

Either we have a human life, and thus a person

Ya still don’t get it, do you? Not all human beings have attained the characteristics of personhood.

Rob:

So your answer is: The majority is always right?

Your answer is that the will of the majority is irrelevant, and that the will of The Supremes triumphs all, which is an even worse position.
Dave on April 18, 2007 at 10:59 pm
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If human fetuses weren’t regarded as persons, that certainly would have been mentioned as an exception.

What? If I say the Yankees won the baseball game, am I also expected to list the 29 other teams who did NOT win the game?

Why would the Supreme Court provide a list of all the non-persons who weren’t protected by a provision that specifically mentions “persons”? They don’t mention that fetuses are an exception for the same reason they didn’t mention that squirrels, roses and stop signs were exceptions.

The 5th Amendment protects “persons” and “persons” alone. You may wish it protected fetuses--just as I may wish it protected apes--but it doesn’t, and wishing doesn’t make it so.

Dave on April 18, 2007 at 11:05 pm
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Not all human beings have attained the characteristics of personhood.

...according to the all-knowing left.

HG on April 18, 2007 at 11:06 pm

HG: The default position is that every human is a person, unless it can be scientifically established otherwise, and it hasn’t.  This whole BS notion that human fetuses aren’t persons is a convenient fabrication of the baby-killers on the left, to rationalize their crimes.  The Constitution makes no special mention of human fetuses, and so we must assume that they are persons and citizens.  There is no Constitutional counterargument, only propaganda from those who would profit from killing human fetuses as a method of birth control.  Shame on them!


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robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 11:14 pm

...squirrels, roses and stop signs were exceptions.

They aren’t human; human fetuses are human.  What part of that don’t you understand.  It is you who wish to dehumanize human fetuses, because you want them killed with impunity, for some perverse reason.


The secret of financial success:

If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve it.  Even if you can afford it, that’s no reason to buy it.

robert108 on April 18, 2007 at 11:19 pm
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They aren’t human; human fetuses are human.

What’s this have to do with whether they are persons?
Dave on April 19, 2007 at 01:07 am

It all boils down to the 1973 Roe V Wade supreme court decision that according to todays technology is out dated…

Zsa Zsa on April 19, 2007 at 04:46 am

Rob

So your answer is: The majority is always right?

Not always right but a pretty good source of justification absent verifiable certainty. I know that you’re certain that the unborn child is a person but most people aren’t.

r108

They like to use the term “fetus” because it dehumanizes the baby, which is the first step to killing it.

I don’t think that’s right although I understand why you do. “Fetus” is an ancient term and has clearly been considered distinct from a birthed person. You can ascribe motives if you like but that doesn’t make them true.

The Constitution makes no special mention of human fetuses, and so we must assume that they are persons and citizens.

I don’t think that assumption follows since you have to assume that the Founders considered the question to be so beyond doubt that they didn’t feel it necessary to include it. I know that you feel it’s beyond question and that many share your view but not everyone does.

HG

Only omniscience can answer that question decidedly for all.  Either we consult God, or the universe, or we admit no consensus.  The prior would divide the two sides into an unknown number, and the latter doesn’t resolve the question.

I think this is a fair comment.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 04:56 am

The vast majority of people probably still believe the 1973 beliefs. AND many more don’t particularly care what the “fetus”, “glop”, “Blob of cells”, baby is because the point is to rid themselves of it.

Zsa Zsa on April 19, 2007 at 05:50 am

“Fetus" is an ancient term and has clearly been considered distinct from a birthed person.

Actually, Mike, it’s Latin, and a technical term that is applied to the unborn of almost all mammals; it’s dehumanizing effect is in not differentiating between a human fetus and all the other non-human fetuses.  You know what I meant, and are being intentionally obtuse here.  Calling a human fetus simply “a fetus” robs it of its special human status, which makes it easier to kill.  When you encounter a pregnant woman who wants her baby, she calls it “a baby”.


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robert108 on April 19, 2007 at 06:21 am
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Actually, Mike, it’s Latin,

For the same reason you pay your doctor $80 when he diagnoses “otitis media” when you wouldn’t pay him squat if he told you you had an “ear ache"*. (You knew that when you went in!)
“Fetus” is doctorese for “baby”.

* Fifty bucks says I catch grief for not providing a literal translation here!



For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

Proof on April 19, 2007 at 06:37 am
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“Fetus” is an ancient term

Actually, if you wanted to quibble, it is a term in an ancient languageEverything in Latin is an ancient term!



For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

Proof on April 19, 2007 at 06:41 am

"Fetus” is ancient in the context we are speaking of. Our technology is so much more advanced today, than it was in 1973.

Zsa Zsa on April 19, 2007 at 07:20 am

Actually, Mike, it’s Latin, and a technical term that is applied to the unborn of almost all mammals;

Yup.

it’s dehumanizing effect is in not differentiating between a human fetus and all the other non-human fetuses.

I usually assume that the person I’m talking to knows we’re talking about a human fetus but I’ll use “human fetus” if you prefer...you politically correct guys kill me.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 08:38 am

MikeA...You are the most wonderful person to argue with because you are so polite.  You truly are one of the nicest liberals on earth!

Zsa Zsa on April 19, 2007 at 08:41 am
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Mike,

Not always right but a pretty good source of justification absent verifiable certainty. I know that you’re certain that the unborn child is a person but most people aren’t.

Well, first of all I’m not sure how you can say that a majority supports abortion.  Public opinion polls aside, we Americans have never been allowed to vote on the matter.  When Roe was handed down by SCOTUS this country’s states were passing anti-abortion laws.  Now we can’t touch the issue.

But my point is that saying a majority of Americans support abortion isn’t something you can support with evidence.

My other point on this is that it’s hard for me to imagine any ambiguity when it comes to whether or not an unborn child is a life.  You yourself have admitted that life begins at conception.  So why then is there any ambiguity about ending that life? 

I imagine you’ll respond by simply insisting that there is ambiguity, but I would ask this: Since you’re hung up on outside-the-womb viability, what will your abortion position be once technology allows a child to be raised entirely separate from the mother post-conception?  Would aborting that child be legal and moral then?


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Rob on April 19, 2007 at 08:50 am
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I usually assume that the person I’m talking to knows we’re talking about a human fetus but I’ll use “human fetus” if you prefer...you politically correct guys kill me.

In “partial birth” abortions, where they drag “the subject “ out by his or her heels until he or she is three inches from being declared a “live birth” and they stick surgical scissors into “the subject ‘s” skull and suction out what is commonly referred to as its “brain” before they crush the ”subject ‘s” skull and finish delivery, in view of all of the points of commonality between the ”subject “ and a “human baby” even to the point of determining its “gender” to use the vernacular, why would one insist on calling the ”subject “ a “fetus”?

Bonus points if you can distinguish the above procedure from “infanticide”!



For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

Proof on April 19, 2007 at 09:13 am

I know that you’re certain that the unborn child is a person but most people aren’t.

This statement has no validity.  Even women that have abortions of convenience know that they are killed something that has life and certainly there are large groups of people (like Catholics) that believe that life begans at conception.  This argument whether this life ia a person is just a pretense to justify the kiiling of a life.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on April 19, 2007 at 09:15 am

ZZ...you’re making me blush but please don’t stop. wink

Rob...I am in fact relying on opinion polls which is the best guide we have in my opinion...not conclusive but the best available.

Since you’re hung up on outside-the-womb viability, what will your abortion position be once technology allows a child to be raised entirely separate from the mother post-conception?

Interesting question...my initial reaction is that once the human fetus is no longer totally dependent on its host mother for survival then it would be wrong to terminate its life. The reason why the matter is not as cut and dried as any of us would like is because we are dealing with two living entities in the mother and the human fetus...once the host mother is removed from consideration as in your example then I can’t see any difficulty.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 09:17 am
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Rob...I am in fact relying on opinion polls which is the best guide we have in my opinion...not conclusive but the best available.

The only true polls are the ones we do on election day.  No vote was taken to amend the constitution on abortion.  No vote was taken to make abortion a right.

You can carp all you want about some unnamed opinion polls showing a majority support for abortion, but I won’t buy it until the issue is actually put through our legislative process.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on April 19, 2007 at 09:20 am

Proof...I actually hear you since I consider the specific procedure yucky in the extreme.

docdave...my statement has no validity in your opinion. I believe that life starts at conception so it’s much more than a pretense.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 09:22 am
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docdave...my statement has no validity in your opinion. I believe that life starts at conception so it’s much more than a pretense.

You believe that life begins at conception, but you also believe that the life in question has no rights until some arbitrary time within the first 9 months of its development.

That sounds like the sort of head-in-the-sand justification someone without the moral cojones to come right out and say when something is wrong makes.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on April 19, 2007 at 09:24 am

Rob...try not to be a butt. I’m not carping about anything and of course the legislatures should be deciding this.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 09:26 am

You believe that life begins at conception, but you also believe that the life in question has no rights until some arbitrary time within the first 9 months of its development.

That sounds like the sort of head-in-the-sand justification someone without the moral cojones to come right out and say when something is wrong makes.

Actually, it sounds to me more like an attempt to juggle competing interests in a difficult moral dilemma.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 09:30 am

MikeA,

Has it even occurred to you that the whole point of that “yucky” procedure is to kill the child before it is “born” in order to circumvent the legal sanctions for murder?

Inducing labor for the specific purpose of being able to legally kill is a good deal more horrific than merely “yucky,” don’t you think?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 19, 2007 at 09:31 am

The partial birth abortion is SO not necessary to save a mothers life. There are other procedures available. The ONLY reason in doing partial birth abortion is to prevent the “Fetus” from being born alive! Abortionists are truly a different type of individual. They are desperate and self centered and uncompromising when it comes to wanting their way. There is so many different kinds of contraception. Why don’t they use it?

Zsa Zsa on April 19, 2007 at 09:43 am
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Actually, it sounds to me more like an attempt to juggle competing interests in a difficult moral dilemma.

Tell me: What interest trumps that of the child’s in living?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 19, 2007 at 09:45 am

Bat One...that thought has occurred to me and I won’t lose much sleep seeing the IDX procedure ended.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 09:48 am

Rob...it’s not a child yet.


"The nation has been hypnotized by the swaying and the gesturing of the Watusi and the Frug.”
*J. Helms*

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2007 at 09:49 am