Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Thursday, August 28, 2008

Russians Threaten NATO Supply Line Into Afghanistan

It seems the Russians’ lust for control over Georgia and the other former Soviet “Republics” in the Caucasus/Central Asian region, including that area’s enormous natural gas and crude oil deposits, are far more serious and determined than many in the West had previously been pleased to acknowledge.  From the Times of London:

Russia played a trump card in its strategic poker game with the West yesterday by threatening to suspend an agreement allowing NATO to take supplies and equipment to Afghanistan through Russia and Central Asia.

The agreement was struck at a NATO summit in April to provide an alternative supply route to the road between the Afghan capital and the Pakistani border, which has come under attack from militants on both sides of the frontier this year.

Zamir Kabulov, the Russian Ambassador to Afghanistan, told The Times in an interview that he believed the deal was no longer valid because Russia suspended military cooperation with NATO last week over its support for Georgia.

Asked if the move by Russia invalidated the agreement, he said: “Of course. Why not? If there is a suspension of military cooperation, this is military cooperation.”

Mr Kabulov also suggested that the stand-off over Georgia could lead Russia to review agreements allowing Nato members to use Russian airspace and to maintain bases in the former Soviet Central Asian states of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.

“No one with common sense can expect to cooperate with Russia in one part of the world while acting against it in another,” he said.

Afghanistan is landlocked.  Supplies must be brought in by air or overland.  Those who have insisted that forces in Iraq should be shifted to the “real” battlefield in Afghanistan, would be well-advised to consider just how those troops should be supplied from outside.  And what to do about Russian intransigence.  My fear is that Obama, whose foreign policy defenders are quick to cite Ronald Reagan’s “negotiations” with Soviet Premier Gorbachev, would be perfectly content to bargain away NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia and the soon-to-be-deployed ballistic missile shield in exchange for a Russian promise of good behavior… and of course, a suitably impressive photo-op.

Its only speculation of course, but I can’t help wondering if the Russians would be anywhere near as belligerent if Barack Obama was seen as less of a naive, foreign and defense policy lightweight.  One who will be remarkably easy to push around should he be elected.

Comments

They are taking a gamble that BHO will be elected.  Then they can re-establish the USSR without our interference.  Welcome back Madeline!


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on August 28, 2008 at 01:30 pm

Ah, yes… Ms Madeline Albright.  The Democrats’ New Age version of Neville Chamberlain.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 28, 2008 at 01:44 pm

Given NATO’s own action, White House Spokesman Gordon Johndroe says Russia’s decision to end military cooperation with NATO does not mean much.

“For all practical purposes, military-to-military cooperation had really already been suspended with the Russians

The Russians are dealing with the lightweight now in the whitehouse.

I can’t help wondering if the Russians would be anywhere near as belligerent if Barack Obama was seen as less of a naive, foreign and defense policy lightweight

WOOF on August 28, 2008 at 02:07 pm

Poodle blithered: The Russians are dealing with the lightweight now in the whitehouse.

If you think that Bush is a light weight, NOBAMA is like 6X weaker. I am sure NOBAMA will really put the Ruskies in fear. NOBAMA can’t even keep from getting bullied by the Clintons I am sure the rest of the Dictators of the World will push him over. But then again the left is for appeasement.


Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

goon on August 28, 2008 at 02:44 pm
Avatar for Hawk

would be perfectly content to bargain away NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia

We can only hope as it is a bad policy to begin with.

Hawk on August 28, 2008 at 02:45 pm

Dude, NATO did this to themselves by persisting as an outdated entity. As if there is a use for an anti-Soviet club after 1991. If I was Russia, I never would have agreed to shit with NATO. Its an effing artifact.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 03:27 pm

They are taking a gamble that BHO will be elected.  Then they can re-establish the USSR without our interference.  Welcome back Madeline!

Chief RZ on August 28, 2008 at 01:30 pm

Chief. I will bet $1000.00 with you that nothing of the sort will happen if BHO is elected.

Since you and B1 brought back Madeline Albright, allow me to remind you the humiliation we suffered from the red Chinese over the U.S. surveillance plane after it collided with the Chinese fighter in April of 2001. How many times did our esteemed president say he is sorry? How many different ways did he say it?

ellinas on August 28, 2008 at 04:50 pm

A slightly dishonest headline isn’t Bat One?

Shouldn’t it be:
“NATO Kicked Off Russian Land After Being Threatened by Some NATO Member Nations”

Condi and the Brits have said that Russia must be made to pay for their actions. So when ol’ Vlad revokes his generous offer of a land bridge to support an occupation, of questionable value, surely you cannot be surprised?


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on August 28, 2008 at 05:17 pm

AV
You’re hampering BatOne’s propaganda efforts. Make like a warmongering apparatchik or get lost, bro.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 05:23 pm

How many times did our esteemed president say he is sorry? How many different ways did he say it?

Oh man, I wonder why RZ isn’t telling us about Bush’s apologetics to the red Chinese? Maybe instead he can tell us about how much Bush loves the Uzbek leader who is a dictator, a torturer, and a human rights abuser.
bush_karimov.jpg


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 05:27 pm

ellinas,

Perhaps not surprisingly, in your eagerness to play partisan “gotcha!” you have misstated the facts of the incident to which you referred.  The US surveillance plane did NOT collide with the Chinese fighter.  The fighter collided with the US aircraft.  Which was, at the time well out over international waters.

I agree the entire incident ought to have been handled differently, and certainly a good deal more harshly, but Mr. Bush’s concerns were clearly with the crew first, and then with the equipment and material on board.

(Incidentally, we all know perfectly well the sort of candy-assed blubbering response such an incident would have provoked from the Clinton administration, so perhaps you ought not to be quite so quick in condemning Mr. Bush’s actions.)


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 28, 2008 at 05:28 pm

I wonder why Bush likes the Uzbek?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 05:33 pm

Sparkie,

Don’t be ridiculous!  Nothing AV is saying, or has said in the past, is of any real significance, much less a hindrance.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 28, 2008 at 05:34 pm

You might find this an interesting take on this subject:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/sticking_it_to_gazprom.html


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 28, 2008 at 05:38 pm

BatOne
Your headline is BS. AV is rightly pointing that out. I’m surprised they even let NATO in there in the first place. For my sentiments, see above.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 05:38 pm

Sparkie,

Most people would probably prefer public policies, particularly those involving foreign affairs and national security, based on rational thought instead of “sentiments.”


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 28, 2008 at 06:21 pm

BatOne
I’m sure they’ll delight at your rationality then.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 06:28 pm

BatOne

Most people would probably prefer public policies, particularly those involving foreign affairs and national security, based on rational thought instead of “sentiments.”

I quote from your post

Its only speculation of course, but I can’t help wondering if


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 06:38 pm

Sparkie,

Surely someone in your academic field of endeavor isn’t going to suggest that speculation and sentiment are the same thing, are you?  Speculation, in either sense of the word, is an intellectual endeavor, not an emotional one, as are sentiments.

Besides, had you been honest enough to include the entire sentence, you’d notice that I wasn’t offering any sort of public policy pronouncement, but reflecting on the foreign policy and national security naivete of the young Mr. Obama, and the likely consequences of his obvious lack of substantive experience.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 28, 2008 at 06:49 pm

BatOne
My profession is irrelevant. I just find it striking that you chastise me for offering my sentiments when you are doing the same. A sentiment is an opinion, BTW. It need not carry emotional connotations, but it can.

had you been honest enough to include the entire sentence

If the rest of your sentence was relevant to the issue I was addressing, I would have included it. Thanks for insinuating that I’m dishonest though. It adds to the rational force of your position. While we are concerned with that content, are you telling me that it is free from your emotional trappings regarding the Messiah?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 07:04 pm

My profession is irrelevant.

Sparkie,

Okay… if you say so.

Thanks for insinuating that I’m dishonest though.

How else would you describe taking a single phrase out from the context of the rest of the sentence, and the rest of the paragraph, simply to prove an erroneous and irrelevant point?

If that “Messiah” you refer to is Obama, I don’t acknowledge the capital “M”.  As for any “emotional trappings” my opposition to Obama’s candidacy is base on his total lack of any pertinent, substantive experience, and the policy positions he has taken during his campaign.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 28, 2008 at 07:17 pm

If that “Messiah” you refer to is Obama, I don’t acknowledge the capital “M”.  As for any “emotional trappings” my opposition to Obama’s candidacy is base on his total lack of any pertinent, substantive experience, and the policy positions he has taken during his campaign.

I’m with you on all that.

Still, I maintain that NATO is outdated and I’m surprised the Russians let that particular organization onto their territory in the first place. Given Putin’s public admissions that he’s all for asymmetrical warfare and a multipolar world, both topics I blogged about in the past, I am surprised that we have seen this much cooperation from him.

While I don’t think the Russians are blame free, neither are the Georgians, despite the MSMs claims. As far as placing sanctions on Russia, good luck. It ain’t happening anytime soon. The money’s in the wrong places. Turns out the mafia rolls pretty thick in this country too.

Also, let me repeat my response to this which you ignored… A sentiment is an opinion. It need not carry emotional connotations, but it can.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 07:44 pm

B1. Whichever way the collision happened, the Chinese tested Bush’s resolve and got the answer they wanted.
You can scream and holler “we all know perfectly well the sort of candy-assed blubbering response such an incident would have provoked from the Clinton administration” but it is just assumption, projection and speculation on your part.
It is also designed to distract.
I am surprised that you agree with the Chief.
How about my bet? Care to take me on?
You and Chief RZ seem to agree that BHO along with Albright are appeasers. Therefore it was proper and fitting for me to show an apeasement from the current administration.

ellinas on August 28, 2008 at 08:09 pm

If there was ever a clearer illustration of the continuing need for a Western alliance, it has been this Georgia Crisis.  That crisis, by the way, continues to unfold and can still worsen.

Not sure what Sparkless means by asserting that Nato is an artifact, except for pro-Soviet, anti-Western wishful thinking.  I suspect that opinion is way over his paygrade.

First, an alliance presents a united front, or at least a more united front to any adversary, as opposed to a grab-bag of individual countries who can be picked off one at a time.

Second, an alliance provides a framework for joint operations in the form of standardized communications, logistics (such as weapons, equipment, supplies, etc.. ), sharing of intelligence information and generally honing the joint operations, both vertically and horizontally, by which I mean cooperation between air, land and sea military branches and between members of the Alliance.

The Soviets, when they formed the Warsaw Pact, had an automatic advantage over the West in that all countries behind the Iron Curtain utilized the same ammunition, and with slight variations, the same weapons, same tactics and so on.  Not surprisingly, it was because that alliance was imposed from the Soviets on down to the vassal states of Eastern Europe.

Western Europe, on the other hand, had (and still does to a certain extent) a baker’s dozen of domestically-produced weapons and equipment, right down to different sorts of electrical sockets.  The EC and its follow-on, the EU was intended to remedy the national disparities in a United States of Europe.

Now we are faced with a resurgent and aggressive Soviet power, freshly infused with lots of Petro-Bucks and upgraded equipment.  To say that there is no need for Nato in the fact of such a nascent threat is pure foolishness.

We need Nato now, very much so.  The next question will be, will the individual states of Europe have the spine to face down the Soviets while a diplomatic and economic solution may be had?

If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

-- Winston Churchill


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 28, 2008 at 09:00 pm

Perhaps not surprisingly, in your eagerness to play partisan “gotcha!” you have misstated the facts of the incident to which you referred.—Bat One

...I can’t help wondering if the Russians would be anywhere near as belligerent if Barack Obama was seen as less of a naive, foreign and defense policy lightweight.—Bat One

Accusing someone else of partisanship Bat One?

You used a misleading title for this thread, and you’re blaming Obama, even though, rumor has it, he isn’t the president.

Maybe you should try some of that “rational thought” you were advocating earlier?


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on August 28, 2008 at 09:52 pm

Not sure what Sparkless means by asserting that Nato is an artifact

1984 was 24 years ago.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 09:59 pm

AV,

Do you have to practice being so obtuse, or is this a character trait endemic to and reserved for those on the radical Left?  AP, UPI, and the original Times of London article all used the word “threat” or “threaten” in describing the Russian Ambassador’s remarks, so while my description of the prospect of increased US-Russian tension in the region over Russian hegemonic ambitions may be discomforting to you personally, it is hardly “misleading” as most of us understand the word.

On the other hand, I’m probably unlikely to submit any of my headlines, posts or comments to you for pre-approval, so I suppose we’ll both have to learn to live with your disapproval.

As for charges of partisanship, I don’t see how pointing out Obama’s rather obvious weaknesses, such as his lack of substantive experience, constitutes partisanship… any more than disagreeing with his policy pronouncements or his philosophical approach to governance constitutes racism, as is so often charged by his supporters.

But again, your disapproval is a pretty good indicator to me that I’m on the Right track.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 29, 2008 at 05:58 am

Sparkie, I think Zig’s brain has been in the freezer since 1984, he’s still calling the Russians “Soviets”.

Bat One: If I threatened you and you then booted me off your land, wouldn’t you be justified?

Also, I thought you were an advocate of property rights? Why shouldn’t Russians decide what they want to do with their own territory? What about dubya setting up missiles just outside the Russian border, maybe that has Putin a tad peeved too?

P.S. Maybe you could write a letter to dubya, explaining to him the merits of invading Russia. Sure, better men have failed, Napoleon and Hitler come to mind, but dubya could be the one to finally pull it off!  smile


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on August 29, 2008 at 04:17 pm

Reagan defeated the Soviets without firing a shot.  Talk about having your brain in a freezer, AV!  That’s you.  Napoleon?


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2008 at 04:32 pm

Hmmmm, how can I explain this so that it might even penetrate a decades-long hash-den fog?

Alrighty then, with regard to Soviets- Putin- Russia, if I rename a steaming pile of doggy poo Chocolate Mousse and handed you a spoon, you’d tuck in, right?

Now we can’t take what you would do as a guide for sober people, but those of us whose brain synapses have not been damaged by extensive abuse of ... ah .. shall we say pharmaceuticals, aren’t fooled by Potemkin Village facades.

Maybe you haven’t been keeping up with current events, but the Soviets (under Putin) are back.  They can call themselves pink fuzzy bunnies for all I care.  Whatever they are calling themselves now, they are invading and killing.

No wait…

Let me guess…

You’re going to come back with some false equivalency which you picked up from some CPUSA poster. 

I can just tell.


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 29, 2008 at 04:42 pm

Actually R108,

He gave Bill Casey (head of the CIA at the time) the marching orders for a Rollback and kicked off over 60 special operations to undermine the Soviets.  Not only did he outbuild the Soviets in the conventional sense, we out-technologied them with SDI and refused to pull the plug on the program, but made them feel the pain in something called ASOW (Actions Short of War ... e.g. unconventional and assymetrical operations)

He accomplished this almost single-handed because the Cheesedick Dims were furiously trying to surrender world-wide to the Commie Bastids.

But, strictly speaking, you are right.


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 29, 2008 at 04:53 pm
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses.

    

By submitting your comment you agree to our terms of service.