I think he becomes the independent “spoiler”

People like his message and the way he delivers it.

I consider myself a “centrist” that leans left on certain issues and leans right on others….

Ron Paul has captured the attention of a wide demographic of voters..ranging from left to right, but I think he has also grabbed a whole lot of “don’t voters”…. Should he mobilize those folks he will either “spoil” or have a sliver of a shot of creating a third party…

maybe a third party would make the Rep. and Dems. get their acts together??

as far as the reality of his message?, yeah I think he is a bit of a nutbag…..

Here’s a fact:

This is Paul’s second bid for the presidency. In 1988, he ran as the nominee of the Libertarian Party. He placed third in the popular vote (with 431,750 votes – 0.47%)

Less than half of one percent of the popular vote!Let me do the math! I think that translates to 0% of the Electoral vote!

Here’s another fact:

The Associated Press reports:
Kent Snyder, the chairman of Paul’s exploratory committee and a former staffer on Paul’s Libertarian campaign, said the congressman knows he’s a long shot.

Fact: Kent Snyder is the master of understatement! wikipedia

wow I didn’t know someone who actually obeys the constitution was considered a “crank”. You people are not conservatives, dont claim it. Anyone who calls ron paul an isolationst doesn’t know the difference between that and a non-interventionist. Of course it’s obvious neocons would prefer to go around nation building instead of going after UBL and the people who attacked this country. We are more isolated now with the bush doctrine than we have been in decades.

all one has to do is look at the mans voting record, he is a pure traditional conservative. CFRed Thompson and Ghouliani belong in the democratic camp along with mccain.

meh, the neocon globalist bubble with pop eventually, you people are no better than liberals. GOP chickenhawk sheep voters will be held responsible if Ron Paul is not the GOP nominee, and the Democrats take the whitehouse.

Do I need to break out some Reagan quotes about Ron Paul?

If you’ve got some quotes from Reagan about Ron Paul after his abysmal kowtowing to the 9/11 truthers, then you have a better spiritualist than Nancy did!

Saddam used a lot of the weapons we supplied against his own people.

Neatly overlooking the fact that the majority of the arms Saddam purchased were from countries other than the US. Nice try at equivalence, turkey! That’s a typically leftist argument. Is your advocacy for Ron Paul an attempt to split the conservative vote so that your Kos-favored candidate can win? Just asking! You’ve already told us you have no loyalty to the Republican party if your candidate is not our candidate!

We have done our job. Our soliders (sic) are not the police, the job of the army is not police work. Right now as we speak our soliders (sic)are settling disputes between neighbors, while the Iraq government is on vacation.

The job of the army is not police work…except when it is, moron! Do you think we kept troops in Germany and Japan for years after the war to provide them with vacation spots? The fact that we are facing a more ruthless, more ideologically driven and potentially suicidal enemy does not negate the necessity to “win the peace”.

while the Iraq government is on vacation.

Oh, puh-leease! How many months a year do Ron Paul and the rest of his merry bandits in our Congress take off during a year? Does government come to a halt? This is the most infantile argument imaginable. Is this what passes for thinking in the Ron Paul camp? (BTW, would that make you a Ron Paul camp follower?)

If you guys were anything near conservatives Ron Paul would not be smeared in the fashion he has.

Says you. I just want him to grow a backbone and tell the “truthers” that they’re nuts, in no uncertain terms. This is not a smear. I’ve seen him tap dance around the question on video (The truth is out there!)
But even beyond the question of his conservative bona fides, are his lack of apparent leadership skills and charisma. When it come to getting elected president it doesn’t matter what your position papers are, if you can’t inspire anyone to actually vote for you!
Add to that the numb-skulled, bone-headed, heavy-handed, clueless, insulting rhetoric of his supporters and you have an uphill climb, if you want to get the Republican nomination.
If you want conservatives to jump on the bandwagon, you need to fix a few of the flats first!

Irony alert! Irony alert!

Ron Paul is…serving his 10th term as a republican congressman.

-ape
[

The choice is to vote out the phonys, the same damn people keep getting elected.

-ape…two sentences later! ROTFLMAO!

Before commenting, please recite:
Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

yeah you should take your own advice.

He’s catching up, like it or not. http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=46403

are you even conservative, ron?

why do you support CFRed Thompson? I dont know any real conservatives who would support someone who is for wide open borders and got a C grade from americans for better immigration, voted for and played a crucial role in the passing of mccain/feingold, lobbyied for abortion, supports NAFTA, and last not but not least is a member of the CFR.

I can’t wait until the neocon bubble pops. Ron Paul is the last great hope for the conservative movement, this independent will make sure he continues to get my donations, and he has my vote.

You claim the “vast majority” of Americans are opposed to fighting terrorists”,

Who are you quoting here ape? I’ve looked through this thread and can’t find it. Are you debating the voices in your head? Or are you just setting up a straw man so that you can talk about what you want to talk about (rather than answer the hard questions?)

I apologize to the scum sucking French and bottom dwelling Germans for that unkind comparison. Is that enough?

LOL! That’s better!

saw a Ron Paul sign, stuck in the center median,

Did it look like this?

or this?

oh the Dr. has a spine

Not in evidence! We’ve seen him on video kissing the posteriors of the truthers. Who am I going to believe? You or my own lying eyes???

pure smear

He smeared himself?? Whatever!

Stop beating a dead horse.

That’s the Ron Paul campaign. You’re the one doing that!

Again, in as small of words as I can manage, ape:

If Ron Paul believes we were attacked by Islamic terrorists on 9/11 and the WTC is NOT a conspiracy fostered by GWB, let him say so plainly and stop trying to bolster his puny numbers with the ranks of 9/11 truthers!

ape: We are not electing the Constitutional Scholar-in-Chief, we are electing a Commander-in-Chief.
His voting record, however sterling, cannot make up for his lack of leadership qualities, among which is having the stones to look a bunch of nutcases in the eye and tell them they’re wrong!

Dr. Ron Paul is the only man who can defeat the democrats

Ah, ape! Always good for a laugh!

Aside from Rob I would say you’re all a bunch of chicken hawk cowards.

Someone needs to ask for a refund from Dale Carnegie!
(I know I said I wouldn’t waste any more of my time on this buffoon, but I keep running across this target rich environment in my mailbox!

nobody has brought facts but me

Facts like, how small his rallies are and how little money he’s raised?
And no one is a true conservative but you and Ron Paul, yada, yada, yada! Yeah, we get it! And even if we gave all of the voices in your head a separate and distinct vote, you still could not get Ron Paul elected to national office.
What is his congressional district? About 100,000 voters (1/10 of one million)? So, winning there 10 times is an indication that he will be elected President of over 300 million Americans? Yeah. Right!

I didn’t know someone who actually obeys the constitution was considered a “crank”.

Illogical. Your premise is false. It is not obeying the Constitution that makes him a crank. A “crank” can obey the Constitution. A distinction I would not expect you to notice…
But you keep supporting the Ron Paul campaign. I hear they serve Kool-Aid!

I think responding to a troll like yourself is a clear violation.

As a follower of “the Doctor”, it’s probably the first thing that’s been clear to you in months!

the Dr’s record, which is easily one of the most conservative in congress

Now if the Doctor only had a spine to go with his record, maybe he would stand up to the truthers when they spout their conspiracy nonsense. My problem with “the Doctor” isn’t his conservative record, it’s his jellyfish imitation when some whackadoo asks him about investigating 9/11.
Add to that his striking lack of charisma as a public speaker and RP is DOA in 08.
(The Doctor…sounds like either cheesy British sci-fi or an American disaster epic…to be released in 2008!)

I a… misinformed smear queen… -ape

I had to edit that one a bit to make it make sense!

people posing as conservatives

You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about! I had the honor and privilege to vote for Ronald Reagan for President – twice!- while ape was still drooling and shitting his pants. (Well, he still does that, but back then, at least he had an excuse !) Get a clue, ape! And don’t do drugs! (You can’t afford to lose any more brain cells!)

Ron Paul is a nut case. I have followed his antics since the ’70s. His campaign is funded from Hillary’s black budget, he is her Ross Perot. And look at which side of the aisle the majority of his votes in Congress fall on.

Or y’all can drive on over to Marfa and sit with the “Doctor” and wait for the UFOs to show up.

“ape” is insulting.

And he wants me to vote for Ron Paul?

continued for “ape” (damn that 5000 character limit)

Iraq had nothing to do with UBL and his crew…

Nobody said that they did.

…infact they all hated each other. Why don’t you break away from phoney conservative talk radio, it makes you sound misinformed.

No need to get rude. You haven’t earned it. If anything, I’d say that you’ve been pretty misinformed by thinking that the Afghanistan al Qaeda is the same one in Iraq. Let’s move on, shall we?

did the french impose their form of government upon us after the revolution?

It’s not about imposing our form of government on them. We’re only giving them the opportunity for freedom. It’s up to them whether or not they want to take it, and with three hugely successful elections under their belt, they have shown that they want it. Remember the point above – you can’t impose freedom.

no they traded with us and let us handle our own affairs, they didn’t occupy our lands with their armys, they didn’t strongarm our government. I think it’s obvious you have no idea what freedom actually is.

Oh no. We won’t let them have the “freedom” of tyrant dictators. How very bad of both America and me.

did congress declare war on iraq? why are we hiding behind the UN?

Well, you won’t get any argument from me on that one. We should have had a formal declaration of war against Saddam’s Iraq. We also shouldn’t give two-shits about the one-worlder dictator-lovin’ UN.

this war is unconstitutional.

Like it or not, this right here makes it Constitutional.

I wouldn’t expect you to care about that though, thinkers like you tend to disregard the constitution.

Thanks for the preemptive insult. Couldn’t wait to see if I had anything to say about it, could you?

this is how the world has always been.

No argument there.

Ape:

Why doesn’t anyone on this blog have the courage to voice who they support?

How about it is too early to declare support, we are learning more about them as time goes by and time makes a more reasoned, mature decision possible. Rob just said he admired Rudy’s haelth care approach and not Romney’s, and while he supports Fred Thompson, his mind is not closed as yours appears to be at this point.

1. I will never vote for a Democrat, I think the Democrat Party poses a greater risk to our liberty and future prosperity than a million Bin-Ladens. 2. I will support the candidate that over the next few months seems to have the best conservative credentials as I define them, the ability to clearly and passionately articulate his views and more importantly lead others to follow him; and as superficial as it appears, reality in our age demands a candidate able to appear presidential (photogenic) and able to make the hostile, liberal media work in his favor.

Ron Paul had a pittsburgh rally on the 3rd of this month, he attracted over 1500 people.

Gracious me! Have there ever been over 1500 people in one place before in the history of mankind??? /sarcasm
Yawn! Think small supermarket opening…

I disagee (sic)with Reagan

There’s a shocker! Your only knowledge of Reagan seems to be what you’ve Googled! You agree with him to the extent that you think he endorses Ru, er, Ron Paul! Nice try, poseur!

You obviously have no smpathy (sic)for our troops, you also seem to not want ” victory “.

You obviously do not comprehend English. It rivals your comprehension of logic and reasoning. I’ve wasted enough time with you. Check back with me the day after the election or the day after Ron Paul withdraws from the race, whichever comes first!
Large servings of humble pie will be served!

All I have seen is smear, smear, “Ron Paul is a Liberal” blah blah

Someone should point out to the simple simian the irony in that all he has done in defense of Ron Paul at this blog is to smear those here! (Plus a lot of blah, blah!) Projection strikes again!

ape – laugh, and let me guess bush does?

Huh? We’re talking about Ron Paul and his positions. How does Bush even figure into that?

iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, no wmd’s were even found.

So? What’s your point?

If the islamic threat is such a peril why is it we have had wide open borders since 9/11? don’t you think protecting the homeland would be a first priority? MILLIONS have flooded through that border, and not all of them are hispanics. Yeah Wide open borders during a ” war on terror “, good strategy !.

Well, we’re in agreement there. Therefore, I have no idea why you’re setting up this straw man.

I will take Michael Scheuers word over yours anyday buddy…

Whatever. I can see that this conversation (just like every other conversation I have had with a Ron Paul supporter) will not be productive.

I think you need to get in touch with reality, the global war on terror is a joke, if jihadists were such an imminent threat those borders would have been closed years ago.

Oh, okay then. Islamic terrorism isn’t a threat because our borders are irresponsibly wide open. Great logic there!

Of course I bet you believe chertoff and other assclowns…

And there’s yet another straw man you’re setting up to knock down.

All that remains in the GOP base are diehard party loyalists that eat bush breakfast everyday. I think they call you guys neocon phoney conservatives, and yes, you neocons are a majority in this country and your bubble will pop soon.

You’re an idiot. There are literally hundreds of threads written at this blog enumerating the many mistakes of the Bush administration.

You’re too much of an ideologue fool to notice it.

Have fun knocking down your straw men. Alert me to when you want to seriously discuss the Ron Paul candidacy.

Now if the Doctor only had a spine to go with his record, maybe he would stand up to the truthers when they spout their conspiracy nonsense.

oh the Dr. has a spine, he doesn;t bow to special interests and big business, he will not allow them to fill his coffers.

what are all you people going to do? vote for an abortion lobbyist who also happens to be a supporter and voted for mccain/feingold? Or maybe you will all vote for a man who ran the biggest sanctuary city in new york when he was mayor? How about CFR newt gingrich the NAFTA supporter and devoted husband? If any of you were real conservatives Ron Paul would easily have your vote, but YOU’RE NOT.

Proof, Ron Paul already made it clear to the truthers that he does not believe it was an inside job and has made his views very clear on that issue. What you’re doing is pure smear, and neoconish. Stop beating a dead horse.

Ron Paul is a nut case. I have followed his antics since the ‘70s. His campaign is funded from Hillary’s black budget, he is her Ross Perot. And look at which side of the aisle the majority of his votes in Congress fall on.

Or y’all can drive on over to Marfa and sit with the “Doctor” and wait for the UFOs to show up

yikes, and you’re calling ron paul a nut? Do us all a favor and take your meds before posting, ok?

“ape” is insulting.

And he wants me to vote for Ron Paul?

I want you to vote for whoever you believe would be best for the country. I’m insulted at the attacks on Dr paul and his supporters by a radical minority in this country, look at how proof and ron are posting, I’m responding accordingly. These guys are smear queens. They won’t even debate the issues they just attack/divert/smear/ while avoiding actual intelligent debate. Look and examine the Dr’s record, pure conservative.

You twit I was only pointing out what we can expect from Paul on the international scene if he is elected president. His ‘blame America’ [Americans if you like] is more inline with the liberals than conservatives.

haha the “blame america” crap again? what you just said makes zero sense, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Only a fool is stubborn enough to not be able to amdmit a bad foreign policy. After 9/11 we decimated AQ by almost 90%, and when we changed our attention to iraq they all of a sudden got a boost in recruitments, now they are operating at almost full strength again. Ron Paul has the 9/11 commission report, Michael Scheuer ( former head of the CIA UBL unit ) and other intelligence experts, and actual history to back up his stances. I think it’s obvious you don’t know much about history, twit.

And it was liberals/Democrats that repeatedly stabbed our allies and trade partners in the back through their control of the internal bureaucracies of Depts of State and Defense as well as Congress. Every single time we told someone we were their friends and they could trust us we stabbed them in the back. And front. From underneath. And both sides.

what does this have to do with Ron Paul? christ i’m have dialogue with a bunch of third graders.

Dr. Ron Paul is the only man who can defeat the democrats, if the GOP puts anybody else up we are going to get a blue president. Wake the hell up please.

ape: congratulations on walking upright! I know this is a recent accomplishment! Funny! You said you’d address my point and then you didn’t! I said:

Being the most conservative candidate in the race
does not necessarily equate to victory.

And I gave you a concrete example. You mumbled something about “leverage”. Giving Pee Wee Herman leverage over Hulk Hogan doesn’t guarantee a victory to Pee Wee! (See Schwarzenegger v. McClintock) McClintock had the conservative bona fides. Who do we call “Governor” today?

apparantly (sic) we have different ideas of what a leader should be.

Yes! I believe a leader should have the courage of his convictions and the ability to look his detractors in the eye and tell them they’re wrong. Not mumble under his breath about “looking into” whatever wacko conspiracy some nutjob presents him with!

Puny numbers?

Yes! We’ve demonstrated in other posts that RP has only a fraction of the cash raised to run for mayor in a single large city on the East Coast. Hardly enough to run a credible national campaign.

So go ahead, cast your vote for an establishment neocon or whatever the hell you are, I will vote for Ron Paul. Globalists like yourself are more likely to vote for Hillary if Ron Paul gets the GOP nod.

ape: Neocon globalist? Are you on crack? Do you simply pull this stuff out of your ass and fling it like your namesake at the zoo? I’m beginning to think that you are on the payroll of one of the other candidates to discredit both Ron Paul AND his supporters by making wild, unfounded charges and relying on facts not in evidence.
Let me ask you a question, ape: If Ron Paul is NOT the Republican candidate, will you sit on your hands and refuse to vote for a Republican less pure than “the Doctor”?

I find it funny nobody ( aside from rob ) has made it clear who they plan on voting for.

Gee! I find it funny that before all the candidates are even in the race, anyone would forswear their allegiance to someone who has not (and likely WILL not) secure his party’s nomination. I’ll make up my mind when all the facts are in!

I don’t need to listen to any stinking debates! I don’t need no stinking facts! I have my mind made up already! I’m voting for “The Doctor”! /sarcasm

ape: you are free to ass-ume that anyone who doesn’t agree with you or Ron Paul, or anyone who may agree with you but doesn’t think that RP has a prayer, are all neocon, New World Order, Hillary voters, but let this thought penetrate your tiny little minid: If you alienate all of your potential allies, you have doomed your own effort. If Ron Paul is a superior candidate or THE superior candidate, then try less name calling and more facts.
(Oh, and have your candidate grow a spine while he’s at it!)

Try doing a little search smart guy.

Like watching the “Doctor” kow tow to truthers on video tape? Been There. Done That. Won’t be buying THAT t-shirt any time soon!

based on the comments I have seen here I wouldn’t expect any support for Ron Paul from you guys.

See: Aesop, sour grapes.

I think i’ve made Ron Pauls case very well, especially when I got Neocons spouting off making no sense.

Hardly! I’ve never seen Ron Paul as condescending or as insulting as you’ve been here. Whether I agree with him or not, I don’t think he has a prayer of winning. Still, I don’t think he’s the arrogant airhead you appear to be! Some one please save Ron Paul from his supporters!

Who are “you people”?

people who smear ron paul without any facts to back it up. Phoney conservatives who abuse the handle.

The “rejuvinated AQ which we had decimated” part isn’t true.

For real? that’s news to me. After we invaded afghanistan we toppled the taliban and put AQ on the run, we had them down to just 10% with the leadership on the run. Ever since this Illegal occupation they have had a jump in recruitments, especially in iraq.

The justness of a war is determined by the monetary cost? That’s pretty shallow.

what did iraq do to this country? they were a starving nation under heavy sanctions. We go in and invade, topple the leader and install “freedom”. We are building 14 permanent based and an embassy larger than vatican city. We are nation building. We owe 60 trillion in liabilites over the next 50 years, this war is funded on money we don’t even have, lets call it borrowed money which usually leads to debt. Our country is subsidzed 3 billion dollars a day. Iraq had nothing to do with UBL and his crew, infact they all hated each other. Why don’t you break away from phoney conservative talk radio, it makes you sound misinformed.

How? The reality is that we’re the ones who brought it to them.

did the french impose their form of government upon us after the revolution? no they traded with us and let us handle our own affairs, they didn’t occupy our lands with their armys, they didn’t strongarm our government. I think it’s obvious you have no idea what freedom actually is.

I don’t see who you’re talking to here. Proof? No,..that makes no sense either. Might I suggest that it is you who has a reading comprehension problem? You’re reading things that aren’t there!

lol do any of you see what 2hotel9 is saying? I wouldn’t be suprised if you just ignored his posts, the guy does come off like a diaper baby.

The good among us can see that it is just to take those people out.

did congress declare war on iraq? why are we hiding behind the UN? this war is unconstitutional. I wouldn’t expect you to care about that though, thinkers like you tend to disregard the constitution.

No, it’s not “BS”. We can very easily wage 30 or so “just” wars right now. The world happens to be a pretty shitty place with all kinds of warlords.

this is how the world has always been.

Lik, I think it means me.

I know who Proof is, but who’s ron?

rob *

2hotel9 you’re irrelevant. This is the last time I’m responding to you as it makes my IQ drop everytime.

I hardly consider you people allies, you’re a minority in this country now. Go punch yourself in the face proof, you’re trolling is weak. Its obvious you dont know jack crap about anyones record.

Let me ask you a question, ape: If Ron Paul is NOT the Republican candidate, will you sit on your hands and refuse to vote for a Republican less pure than “the Doctor”?

I will vote third party, I will not vote for a CFR candidate.

And I gave you a concrete example. You mumbled something about “leverage”. Giving Pee Wee Herman leverage over Hulk Hogan doesn’t guarantee a victory to Pee Wee! (See Schwarzenegger v. McClintock) McClintock had the conservative bona fides. Who do we call “Governor” today?

This is totally different. Arnold was talking alot more conservative back then and he courted alot of republicans, he also had that ” movie star ” ora, and a clean slate/record with regards to government. I know, I live in southern california, we was preaching a whole different tune back then plus the republicans thought he would be able to influence the democrats into actually balancing the budget which they have recently failed to do. We are experiencing blowback right now in my state.

Ron Paul has voted NO on alot of issues that the democratic frontrunners have voted an establishment YES for, this is a huge issue with alot of democrats, independents, Libertarians ( who’s party nominee already pledged his support for ron paul ), they don’t see ron paul as a GOP cronie/neocon. All of them have already showed they are willing to vote for him, all you have to do is look all over the net. He has massive leverage over the democratic establishment candidates on almost every issue, have you even seen him speak? the man is straight forward, honest, intelligent and he would crush them in debate, Americans loving hearing honesty now more than ever. He is also getting the most military donations from our troops overseas, as on record with the FEC.

You claim the “vast majority” of Americans are opposed to fighting terrorists”,

please show me where I said this? I said the iraq war and the nation building we are doing that’s costing us billions of dollars we don’t have. Iraq was a huge mistake, rejuvinated AQ which we had decimated, and is putting this country in massive debt. If iraq is actually a free country, I would believe they have a right to choose for themselves the form of government they believe most promitive of their happiness. The US is actually undermining democracy in that country, which is shameful. Violence will continue because we cannot even begin to fathom the ways of the muslims. This is some serious religious shit we are dealing with, we should not be involved, they are irrational.

Once again since you have a reading comprehension problem, the majority of Americans want an end to this Iraq war, they believe has been seriously mismanaged and I reference that 80% figure sited almosted 2 months ago nation wide. Iraq has almost 60% unemployment, iraqis sit around watching foreigners doing the work they should be doing, I would be pissed if I couldn’t get a job to feed my family.

We need to focus on our issues here at home and the debt we are going to be leaving for our future generations, the federal government has expanded almost 40% since that d-bag clinton left office. We have wide open borders and the people who are leading us in this declared ” war on terror ” are doing nothing about it and have done nothing about it for years. SPP, TTC/NAFTA superhighway, NAU, CFR, all threats to our national sovereignty. Excuse me for loving this country, our sovereignty as a nation, our constitution, and our civil liberties which are under direct attack.

WHO do you people like/support?

ape: I noticed that you were conspicuously absent from the Ron Paul love fest here.

ape: Ron Paul may be an idiot, but Hillary is a criminal. A hard choice, but if that’s all there is, it will be necessary to hold one’s nose and vote Republican. The Dems want to destroy America, whereas Paul only wants to cripple us.

Cripple us? you mean to tell me getting rid of wasteful federal beaucracies and actually defending this nation rather than going around nation building will cripple this country? rejecting amnesty and the SPP? We owe 60 trillion in liabilites over the next 50 years, and are subsidized 3 billion dollars a day by foreigners. Don’t lay down that cripple BS we are already in enough shit as it is. All the GOP ‘frontrunners’ are no more corrupt than Hillary.

As for the defense of this nations interests abroad with regards to terrorists, Ron Paul voted to go after UBL, and he still wants to continue this. As far as the homeland goes I think the Dr. said it best:

” Our most important task is to focus on effectively patrolling our borders.[/h3] With our virtually unguarded borders, almost any determined individual – including a potential terrorist – can enter the United States. Unfortunately, the federal government seems more intent upon guarding the borders of other nations than our own. We are still patrolling Korea’s border after some 50 years, yet ours are more porous than ever. It is ironic that we criticize Syria for failing to secure its border with Iraq while our own borders, particularly to the south, are no better secured than those of Syria.

We need to allocate far more of our resources, both in terms of money and manpower, to securing our borders and coastlines here at home. This is the most critical task before us, both in terms of immigration problems and the threat of foreign terrorists. Unless and until we secure our borders, illegal immigration and the problems associated with it will only increase. ”

I find it funny nobody ( aside from rob ) has made it clear who they plan on voting for. Ashamed? I would be if it was any of the current ‘frontrunners’. Hell I guess if they talk tough they must be tough !

Presdiential campaigns do not start for 8 months. No one in the current kabuki dance on the boob tube are going to actually be in the race, people are already sick of their asses and it ain’t even August.

“doctor” Paul, the UFO chasing nutjob is not, and I mean fucking ever, going to be President. Hillary has bought him, just as Bill bought Perot. And you morons trolling around the internet puking your lies and bullshit are merely comic relief. Your boy is solidly aligned with Democrats, and always has been. A disgraced failure of a doctor, just like his hero Howard Dean.

Goodbye, dumbfuck.

I’m sure Jefferson meant within the constitution. Jefferson was not “bunk”, are you saying what Thomas Jefferson said was “bunk”?

No, I’m saying that your cherry-picked mischaracterization of TJ is bunk.
For someone who claims to be a Conservative, you use the antisemitic term “neocon” a lot; and wrongly, as well.

When you disagree with Reagan you are disagreeing with almost all Conservative Republicans, which will only gain you enemies without purpose

Funny you say that, neiman. If that’s the case this entire board aside from a few are in direct conflict with Reagan, seeing that Reagan supported Ron Paul.

Which is exactly the same thing that Jack Murtha, Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, Rus Feingold, Dennis Kucinich and Cindy Sheehan have been saying.

He’s been saying that for years now, his voting record is a staple of this. Take a look at the consistency of his voting record before comparing him to corrupt socialist democrats. God bastards like you make me wanna vomit.

No one said directly nor implied that Iraq had anything to do with the attacks on the homeland of America

LOL, obviously you forgot the events and case for “war” leading up to the invasion of Iraq. People here have even said we needed to invade to be in the ‘middle’ of the jihadist storm. HAHA, name some strong radical islamic groups in Iraq during the Saddam era, he crushed jihadist extremism in his country brutally. I don’t recall AQ having influence in Iraq before the US invaved/occupied.

the majority of Americans want an end to this Iraq war…

lik: I think part of ape’s problem is that when your clubhouse is a phone booth, every meeting is standing room only! His illusions regarding the Iraqi people are no stranger than his illusions about RP.

Wetback: Despite your kind invitation “Fuck You!,” I would rather not engage in intimate sexual relations with you, not there is anything wrong with your homosexual desires, but I am not thus inclined! Thank you anyway!

Most of your drivel is not even response worthy however I will respond to this :

BTW, ape: Being the most conservative candidate in the race does not necessarily equate to victory

He has leverage over them on healthcare, he knows the system inside and out and does not support the current situation we are in with regards to healthcare. He also has leverage over them on the iraq war, neocons might not wanna admit it but the majority of this country is tired of that war and believed it was ill advised and mis managed. Iraq will be a huge issue, especially since the “surge” is an absolute disaster. He also has leverage over them with the patriot act, a law that is a disgrace to this country.

ape: We are not electing the Constitutional Scholar-in-Chief, we are electing a Commander-in-Chief.
His voting record, however sterling, cannot make up for his lack of leadership qualities, among which is having the stones to look a bunch of nutcases in the eye and tell them they’re wrong!

apparantly we have different ideas of what a leader should be. It’s easy to to good talk, especially if you’re an actor, however records mean everything and speak alot louder than words. How does the old saying go? ‘ talks the talk but can’t walk the walk’ ?

If Ron Paul believes we were attacked by Islamic terrorists on 9/11 and the WTC is NOT a conspiracy fostered by GWB, let him say so plainly and stop trying to bolster his puny numbers with the ranks of 9/11 truthers!

Puny numbers? He got 14% of the republican donations, 47 % of his donations were from people who donated 200 dollars or less. He’s made his stances very clear as of late with regards to 9/11, only an idiot believes Ron Paul thinks it was an inside job. Try doing a little search smart guy.

Lets take a little look at the donations both republicans and democrats are getting. The Washington-based Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan, nonprofit group, tracks contributions by selected industries.

In the “hedge fund & private equity” category, the winner to date is Republican Mitt Romney (co-founder of a private equity firm) with $797,325 in contributions.

Nice to know your friends remember you.

Democratic Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut is second with $726,950.

Oh, yeah, he’s chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.

See, some things in politics do make sense.

Hillary’s third with $703,600, suggesting maybe the Clintons didn’t sell out quite enough (though 700K is a nice asking price).

Barack Obama and Rudy Giuliani are fourth and fifth, each with more than $640,000.

So I’m betting hedge funds won’t suffer no matter who’s elected.

Front-running Democrats seem to own that crowd (or, maybe, vice versa). Hillary got $3.3 million, Obama $3.1 million.

Rudy and Mitt are right behind with $3 million and $2.9 million.

You know, ya gotta diversify.

In contributions from “health professionals,” Hillary (the queen of health-care reform) is out front with $998,851, which has to be disquieting for those hoping she revisits her former issue with gusto.

Romney is second with $829,337 and Obama’s third with $701,993.

John Edwards is sixth with $254,297.

In money from “pharmaceuticals/health products,” it’s Romney first ($277,455), Hillary second ($172,150) and Obama third ($160,572).

Edwards is a dismal 11 of 17, with a paltry $6,758.

(Guess they remember malpractice or personal-injury suits he won.)

Don’t weep for Edwards. The North Carolina trial lawyer is remembered well by colleagues. He leads all candidates with $6.5 million from “lawyers/law firms,” the biggest single giving group.

Hillary, also a lawyer, is second with $6.2 million. Obama, also a lawyer, is third with $5.5 million.

So go ahead, cast your vote for an establishment neocon or whatever the hell you are, I will vote for Ron Paul. Globalists like yourself are more likely to vote for Hillary if Ron Paul gets the GOP nod.

ape: First, let us be accurate, Ron Paul is by all reasonable definitions a Libertarian. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but he is not a conservative Republican. The differences may appear minor on the surface, but it is the small things which make all the difference in life.

When you disagree with Reagan you are disagreeing with almost all Conservative Republicans, which will only gain you enemies without purpose. I believe in the 11th Commandment between candidates or leaders of the party, which is why I am not thrilled with Gingrich, he has often spoken evil of Bush and other Republicans. That means I do not trust him!

I might add that the name NeoCon is a pejorative created by liberals, like Chrissie Matthews and like disagreeing with Reagan on issues, use of this term will only gain you the ire of fellow Republicans. It will also not win Ron Paul any fans among them.

Ron Pauls statements on the war in Iraq demonstrate he does not truly understand why we are there and that he lacks the ability to criticize others without pissing off those that support our policy and our troops, and this alone would cause me never to vote for him. If Ron Paul wants to suggest better policies in a constructive manner and his arguements seem valid, then sure talk about Iraq; but attack the war when our troops are in the field risking their lives and your words give aid and comfort to our enemies to keep killing and holding on until the next election and you are an enemy of this country. That goes for Democrats, the French, Germans and Ron Paul.

Proof said it a long time ago, Reagan complimenting Ron Paul or even saying something supportive of him does not mean he would endorse him for President

You guys won’t give Ron Paul any credit even when it’s due, the mans record is impregnable and he’s one of the strongest conservative-libertarian candidates we have ever had. All I have seen is smear, smear, “Ron Paul is a Liberal” blah blah. Reagan would condemn all of you guys and question your conservative principles. I have no doubts Reagan would support Ron Paul.

So, Ron Paul has been promoting the policies of these Leftists anti-war traitors for years now and has been consistently standing with them and against our troops? Not something I would be proud of!

He’s on record for voting against this Iraq war when everyone including democrats were geared for war and voted for it. That does not make him a democrat. You people really are grabbing straws here. His policies are more in touch with conservative-libertarian ideals, our current policies as I have pointed out, are liberal and rather wilsonian.

Really, please cite when and where Bush made a direct connection between Saddam and the Al Queda attacks on America, I would be very interested.

Dick Cheney did that for him, on national TV. God you’re chimp with a short term memory issue.

Gee, then I guess that means he agrees with Bush and he could not have prevented Al Queda from rebuilding from within Pakistan either?

Letters of Marque and Reprisal? Are you that Brain dead? I already posted that. Thats one way to put the heat on UBL. We have many options.

Let me explain to you that there is a very big difference between making military decisions after the fact than actually being responsible for making decisions in real time and taking responsibility for them. You and Ron Paul can play armchair quarterback all you want and if you are wrong, you don’t have to accept the consequences of your decisions, you do so with impunity. In the case of Iraq, American soldiers and Iraqi citizens felt the full force of the consequences of the decision to invade; the President and his administration had to accept the responsibility for all their decisions and deal with the consequences of their actions in real time, under extreme pressure. Ron Paul and all the little Paulites out there and the Democrats get to have fun carping about the war and Bush all they want and there are no consequences, your decisions about how to run this war are not real, they are only theory and made from a safe distance from the action.

Many Generals wanted more troops, they got replaced when rummy disagreed and wanted a speedy light invasion. Many Generals disagreed with the way the invasion was carried out. Their concerns fell on deaf ears and we are in the shit now. Like I said before you thick headed knuckle dragger, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Continue calling real conservatives liberals, it just proves how ignorant you are.

may I ask who you are interested in and possibly support?

Those who oppose the war on Iraq are enemies of America, what a ridiculous statement. How many far right conservatives are there that support this war? Are we protecting ourselves from pre-emptive strikes? obviously not since there seems to be no concern over our borders.

Now that we are caught up in a war that never involved us, what more can we do but to support our troops and demand there save return home. It appears that those who favor the war on Iraq do so simply for the fact there enemies the illogical Dems and Libs are against it.

I fail to see just how America benefits from this war, all this debate here is just the same rubbish as it was since the war began. Your either with us, or against us, therefore if your against us, your against America. Fuck You, I love this country more than the next patriot, and Fuck the pro-Israel lobby that brought us there.

Ron Paul supports the troops, he wants to bring them home.

B1: Ron Paul supports athletics, too! Many Ron Paul followers are athletic supporters!

Proof: Your Mama! <- I am not sure what that means, but it sounds incredibly rude.

Anyway, I apologize to the scum sucking French and bottom dwelling Germans for that unkind comparison. Is that enough?

How many far right conservatives Conservatives aren’t “far right”; that term applies to fascists and military dictators. Conservatives advocate individual independence, which is not “far right” at all. are there that support this war? Are we protecting ourselves from pre-emptive strikes? I believe the last one was 9/11/01, so we have been doing pretty well at that. You can’t argue with results.

Ron Paul supports the troops, he wants to bring them home.

Which is exactly the same thing that Jack Murtha, Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, Rus Feingold, Dennis Kucinich and Cindy Sheehan have been saying.

Ron Paul’s statements on the war in Iraq demonstrate he does not truly understand why we are there…

Ron Paul’s statements on the Federal Reserve System demonstrate a similar lack of understanding of national monetary and fiscal policy.

Ape:

Many Generals wanted more troops, they got replaced when rummy disagreed and wanted a speedy light invasion. Many Generals disagreed with the way the invasion was carried out. Their concerns fell on deaf ears and we are in the shit now.

1. I could have sworn we deposed Saddam and won the war in about three weeks. So, I guess Secretary Rumsfeld, an experienced Secretary of Defense was right about a speedy and light invasion to overthrow Saddam and give the country back to the Iraqi people.
2. The general staff were sedentary old farts for the most part, they hated Rumsfeld because he was carrying out the President’s directive to reorganize the military for modern warfare and they wanted things to remain status quo. That is what always happens during times of change in the military, like when they Navy fought Air Power for decades. So Rumsfled lifted some younger modern warfare officers to lead his efforts, stepping on some rather arthritic toes. The military fights the war but they are under civilian control, so naturally some of these generals fought him at every turn, then add in the fact there are always some liberals among the general staff and you get a lot of complaining. None of that complaining means they were right, they just wanted to undermine Rumsfeld
3. The surge seems to be working now and if it continues we won’t be in the shit, Bush and Rumsfled will have been proven right and then what the hell will you and Ron Paul have to complain about? You’ll never accept it, you will argue to your dying day that Paul and you and others were right despite the outcome.

Dick Cheney did that for him, on national TV.

Please give me the quotation, date, place and time so I can research Cheney’s comments, as I don’t recall anyone in this administration directly or even indirectly connecting Saddam with 9/11.

Letters of Marque and Reprisal are grants of authority from Congress to private citizens, not the President. While these authorizations for private incursions have all but disappeared in the world; and in a time of war the Congress would be directly, consciously interferring in the President’s War Powers and that would involve them in usurping Presidential authority, forever blurring the lines between three separate but equal branches of government and undermining our Constitution. This is nothing more or less than hiring soldiers of fortune, private individuals to conduct private, limited wars. In the case of Pakistan, it would still result in destroying our relationship with that country and I doubt would gain acceptance by the world community.

Continue calling real conservatives liberals, it just proves how ignorant you are.

You are qualified to define who and who is not a conservative? You already admitted Ron Paul is more Libertarian than conservative and by his statements of principles, wouldn’t you say he tends more towards the idea of individual anarchists, and while not absolutely opposing use of force by a government, especially in reaction to violence, nonetheless believes we are all islands unto ourselves and if others around the world are suffering great violence at the hands of murderous dictators that is just too damn bad, none of our business and that explains much of his criticism of Bush today?

Lastly my simian friend, how is that you know what Reagan would say today, are you using libertarian tea leaves again?

Please give me the quotation, date, place and time so I can research Cheney’s comments, as I don’t recall anyone in this administration directly or even indirectly connecting Saddam with 9/11.

You’re the only one talking about a connection to 9/11 either because your retarded, or you’re trying to twist things up on purpose. Dick Cheney talked about Saddams ties to AQ on face the nation with Tim Russert. Dig the quotes up yourself.

I could have sworn we deposed Saddam and won the war in about three weeks. So, I guess Secretary Rumsfeld, an experienced Secretary of Defense was right about a speedy and light invasion to overthrow Saddam and give the country back to the Iraqi people.

And impose an American style democracy? Those people are going to fight one way or another, their is nothing we can do about it. You don’t control an entire country with the amount of troops we went in with. Nickle and Diming. Have you actually served in the military? or are you just another chicken hawk?

The general staff were sedentary old farts for the most part, they hated Rumsfeld because he was carrying out the President’s directive to reorganize the military for modern warfare and they wanted things to remain status quo

In other words they disagreed with Rumsfeld and got replaced. Those old farts warned us what would happen, those old farts were right.

The surge seems to be working now and if it continues we won’t be in the shit, Bush and Rumsfled will have been proven right and then what the hell will you and Ron Paul have to complain about? You’ll never accept it, you will argue to your dying day that Paul and you and others were right despite the outcome.

We have had some bloody months recently. We will see what happens in September. I don’t see the violence ending, if it does good, maybe then we can leave and focus on our own affairs.

You are qualified to define who and who is not a conservative? You already admitted Ron Paul is more Libertarian than conservative and by his statements of principles

do you always BS what other people say? I said he is a conservative-libertarian just like Reagan. Continue making shit up.

Ape:

I never supported this war, Ron Paul voted against it. Our troops are not police officers, they have no business policing that country. I can still support the troops while disagreeing with policy makers.

I don’t give a rats rectum what you say as a private citizen that no one listens to, but Ron Paul is running for POTUS and when he disagrees without making it clear he supports our government and is committed to defeating the terrorists; he is knowingly giving aid and comfort to the enemy, he is an accomplice to every American and Iraqi death and is thereby disqualfied to be President, and if by some bizzare twist of fate he became President, he does not deserve the respect or support of the American people as he has set the example for them to follow of individual anarchy. Lastly to this point, I do not believe you or anyone can honestly support the troops while undermining their mission and encouraging by your dissent the enemy to keep killing them.

may I ask who you are interested in and possibly support?

Yes you may as long as you don’t expect an answer!

And impose an American style democracy?

For someone who claims to be conservative, you sure spew a lot of leftie talking points. In the first place, you can’t “impose” an American-style democracy, since it is based on individual choice. In the second place, we freed them from tyranny so that they could self-determine, and they chose a parliamentary democracy, instead of the American representative republic.
Your leftie talking point is both ignorant and totally wrong.
By definition, you can’t “impose” freedom. Duh.

What needs to be remembered is that arab islamic culture is based on a tribal system that still very much influences daily life in the region. In that tribal system, perception is everything, and whoever is perceived as being the strongest will be accepted as leader, even if they are hated. Also, Islam itself encompasses both personal faith and political governance. It dictates how a majority-Muslim nation is to be run. Islam > Democracy.

Non-responsive. You avoided the fact that you are parroting a leftie talking point: We are trying to “impose” an American-style democracy in Iraq. I thoroughly refuted that on three levels. I realize you are a leftie defeatist. I’m not.

The Iraqi occupation has caused terrible suffering, including hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, massive unemployment, corruption and imposed
privatization, horrific torture, a continuing infrastructure disaster. All lying leftie talking points. There you go again. The Iraq economy is growing, and the 80% of Iraqis(Shia and Kurds) who were locked out of the economy under Saddam are now making economic progress. Saddam killed more Iraqi civilians than the terrorists have since we deposed the murdering dictator. You are just plain wrong. The U.S. military and political presence has not strengthened secular and democratic elements in Iraq; to the contrary, it has served to undermine them. Another leftie lie; there were no democratic elements in Iraq under the totalitarian Saddam regime. Duh. And far from effectively combating terror, U.S. actions in Iraq have only served to recruit more terrorists both inside the country and globally. Yet another lying leftie talking point. You are doing a good job for them, Mr. “conservative”. We have focused the terrorists in a place where we can kill them and destroy their infrastructure, which we have been doing. If you had a shred of honesty, you would admit that.

BTW, just because you are emotionally reactive in choosing a candidate doesn’t mandate that anyone else has to do the same thing at this point. Are you some sort of collectivist? Do you have an emotional need for everyone to do what you do? Does it make you insecure when we don’t agree with you? Are you tolerant of a diversity of opinion? You seem to be a reflexive hater.

but I am enough of a realist to know that no Third Party candidate can win election

He’s serving his 10th term as a republican congressman, and is campaigning for the GOP nomination. you have a Gem right before your eyes, embrace it.

Also going back a few posts about loyalty to the party, and the 11th commandment.. Bush, Newt gingrich, and the GOP ran against Ron Paul ( who is a republican congressman ) and tried to elect a fucking democrat who crossed over. Of course Ron Paul won. This is a direct violation of Reagans 11th. We need to clean house and vote real statesmen in, enough of the phonys, i’m sick of it. Ron Paul can win, he’s the only guy who is attracting such a wide variety of voters, he is also waking people up who haven’t voted for years ( I wonder why ? ). Wake up please.

Ron Paul would secure our borders and has advocated doing so for years. I think you need to realize he will protect this county far better than any other candidate. Also, part of protecting this country is protecting the individual liberties of the legal citizens. Every other candidate is an open borders globalist, Giuliani ran a sanctuary city and sued the fed for going after illegals, and his law firm represents Cintra Concessions. Thompson supported and voted for Mccain/feingold, and got a C on immigration, he also lobbyied for abortion. The choice is clear for me, we need a strong statesman.

I already linked up the Legislation, perfectly in line with the constitution, it also does not inhibit presidential “war” time powers, even though congress never declared war. Also I highly doubt, and i base this judgment on earlier posts, that anybody here supported or even considered supporting Ron Paul.

ape:
1. I notice you didn’t say whether I passed your chickenhawk test.

2.

The Iraqi occupation has caused terrible suffering, including hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, massive unemployment, corruption and imposed privatization, horrific torture, a continuing infrastructure disaster.

You appear to be having a great deal of trouble with enemy identification, it is Al Queda and Muslim extremists causing these problems, including the civilian deaths; but sadly, you prefer to blame America, which sounds very Liberal to me.

3. As I pointed out earlier, your belligerant, angry, hate filled responses here are not doing Ron Paul any good. Whether you think anyone here would ever consider voting for him, you are making dang sure they wouldn’t. You seem to be presenting a case why Ron Paul is the wrong choice, so I have to wonder if you really ever supported him or your role here is to make sure he is defeated.

When you are promoting someone or something as being beneficial and wanting others to join you, there is no chance to succeed in that goal by name calling, an absence of civility and a wholly negative attack plan.

ape: “Go punch yourself in the face, and come with actual fact[s] when [you are] in discussion with me, especially if you’re going to engage [me].” Okay, how about these facts, first try and write an intelligent, coherent sentence just once, just to see if you can do it, I can tell you the above statement doesn’t get there at all.

1. “under Article I, Section 8 of the United States Constitution, Congress has the power to grant letters of marque and reprisal,…” Sounds to me like I was right that only Congress has the right to grant such letters. Let’s see , doesn’t that mean you were wrong?
2. “The United States Constitution (Art. I § authorizes only Congress to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal. One outstanding question remaining to be resolved by SCOTUS is whether or not Congress can issue such a letter to the President, as an authorization for limited offensive warlike operations outside the territory of the United States. Or, can give him such authority to issue the actual letters.” So, we don’t even know if it is constitutional for Congress to pass such legislation allowing the President to issue such letters as he/she feels warranted. Furthermore, the Congress maintains oversight, not just simple control over the power of the purse, but actual oversight of each warrant; that oversight infringes upon Presidential authority to conduct war.
3. All that crap aside, how do you think the Pakistani government will react to our sending in soldiers of fortune or paying other Pakistani’s to kill Bin Laden and throwing their country in chaos? How will the world react to our using others to invade a sovereign, peaceful nation? These things are not done in a vacuum and there can be serious international and especially regional repercussions when President Paul starts sending such secret agents into other foreign countries ad hoc; like Iran, Saudi Arabia and etcetera running after Bin Laden and his associates.
4. So, you don’t know when and where Cheney said it or his exact words. Without those facts you are just whistling Dixie and cannot prove your charges. That means, without desiring to be rude, either put up or shut up about the issue, as you seem unwilling and/or unable to support your claims.
5. “do you always BS what other people say? I said he is a conservative-libertarian just like Reagan. Continue making shit up.” You said Paul was a conservative as if that is the final word on the subject; it is not, so I didn’t make up anything. Ron Paul is a Libertarian and does not as far as I can tell enjoy the support of conservatives in the Republican Party to any great degree.
6. “Have you actually served in the military? or are you just another chicken hawk?” A. The term chickenhawk is a pejorative term and only demonstrates the faults in your own character, not any faults in your adversaries. B. I served honorably in the Marine Corps in Vietnam, as did my middle brother in the same branch and war (2.5 tours); my eldest late brother in the Army in Korea, my late father commanded a ship in the Pacific in WW-II. My Marine Corps Grandson and nephew are and have done their tours in Iraq, and I lost my son March 18, 2005. Does that information answer your chickenhawk accusation satisfactorily?

Ron Paul can run for President either in the Republican Party, as an Independent, a Libertarian or a Democrat for all I care. You are free to support him with your money and labor, but I must tell you that your belligerant fighting here on his behalf is turning off people that might have seriously considered his candidacy at some point, in all honesty you are not doing him any good with your hate filled defense. If you really support him you should ignore anything you consider false or rude by others, and politely correct the record when possible with facts and avoid attacking those not yet convinced that Ron Paul should get the nomination.

you refuted nothing. Are you seriously telling me America had nothing to do with and had no influence in the forming of an Iraqi government? No. You said that we “imposed democracy” on them, and you are wrong about that. I explained three ways in which your statement is wrong. Please review. That
government is a design of US interests To repeat, it’s a parliamentary system, and ours is a representative republic. Can’t you read? and is heavily pressured by the United States to act in US interests.A free Iraq shares a good many of our interests. Duh. Do you have any idea how much money private companies are making off of this occupation? I hope they are making a lot, because they are contributing a lot to a free Iraq. For someone who claims to be conservative, you sure hate business, just like a leftie.

Hey I guess the NEI is just another liberal lie/talking point.

Pretty much, yeah.

Yes you may as long as you don’t expect an answer!

laugh, figures. Why doesn’t anyone on this blog have the courage to voice who they support? Aside from Rob I would say you’re all a bunch of chicken hawk cowards.

I hope they are making a lot, because they are contributing a lot to a free Iraq. For someone who claims to be conservative, you sure hate business, just like a leftie.

hmm this is a pretty pathetic response. Those people are doing all the work Iraqis should be doing, I posted up my sources. 60-70% unemployment, men are standing around pissed off because they can’t feed their families. This is contributing to the violence. The ignorance and ” fuck it, atleast they are free ” attitude is sad. Millions of refugees have fled that country, where’s your sympathy for them?

No. You said that we “imposed democracy” on them, and you are wrong about that. I explained three ways in which your statement is wrong. Please review

We did, when we leave they will form a theocracy and a government that they feel best represents them, with Islam being the biggest influence in the government. Right now they don’t feel represented. If the Iraqi’s had their way the U.S. and alot of other foreign contractors would be booted out, and Iraqi citizens would be doing the work. The reason this is not happening is because of US influence over the government. Lets just call it imposing your will. That government would be totally different had the US kept it’s nose out of the process.

A free Iraq shares a good many of our interests. Duh

Gotta laugh at that. Talk about a hardcore neocon.

Pretty much, yeah.

haha, yeah the NIE is nothing but a bunch of liberal talking points. Neocons don’t really care about UBL, bush said he didn’t in 2003. Yeah you guys could care less that AQ is almost at full strength again, and is seeking bio weaponry.

ape – apparantly listening to Paul speak broke the neocon hold for a while. That all stopped when foreign policy and Iraq came up, with Giuliani demogoging the issue.

That’s immaterial. The fact is that these evil “neocons” cheered your candidate on. Why you believe that to be a good thing is beyond me.

Funny, because in a July 2005 letter to Ayman al-Zawahiri, Zarqawi outlined a four-stage plan to expand the Iraq war, spreading the conflict to Iraq’s secular neighbors and engaging in battle with Israel. They are very much in contact with one another…

Nobody said that they weren’t in contact with each other.

They are all 1 unit, different base of operations. Different tactics for different locations.

Wrong. They are two units with similar goals.

Hmm interesting. That’s odd, according to the latest NIE report, issued this past july, stated that AQ as a whole was operating at almost full strength again, and are in Pakistan seeking chemical and biological weaponry. Please keep up to date when you’re having conversation with me.

Was that supposed to be a response to any of the points made? I don’t see how. Please stay on subject when you’re having a conversation with me.

That region is no more stable than when saddam was in power.

What kind of stability?

Once we leave the Iraqis will take care of AQ on their own, in their own fashion.

They’re doing that now. Please keep up to date when you’re having a conversation with me.

Saddam used alot of the weapons we supplied against his own people.

What weapons? List them.

Saddam was a bad guy yes, the sanctions were just as bad.

The sanctions were “just as bad” as Saddam? That’s looney-toon talk.

I don’t recall the congress declaring war on Iraq in 1991, what country was he surrendering to?

So you’re going to be a pedantic twit and ignore the war just because it wasn’t declared? Suit yourself.

What the hell is ” perfect freedom “.

I think it’s the unattainable freedom that you are arguing for here.

If the Iraqis want freedom bad enough they will work for it on their own. Part of freedom is having the freedom to choose, like the old saying goes here in the U.S, ” Each generation has a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promitive of its happiness.” If the Iraqi’s are truley free then they have a right to put another Saddam in power if they want.

No. That’s dangerous and unacceptable to our security. I know that doesn’t make a Saddam cheerleader such as you happy, but that’s the reality we’re living in.

The congress decalded war on Japan and Germany. We also had stronger leadership.

How does that address the point? The point is that we have done “nation building” before. The fact that WW2 was a properly declared war is immaterial to that point. So why are you bringing it up?

We have bases in Saudi Arabia…

What bases? I think your information is about 4 years past due. The U.S. moved out of it’s Saudi Arabia bases.

We also have bases in Afghanistan.

Which is on the other side of Iran and isn’t the geological center of the Middle Eastern shitstorm. Try to keep up.

The people that attacked us operated out of Afghanistan, and most of them originated from Saudi Arabia. How does Iraq fit into the picture?

That’s already been explained.

Saddam hated UBL and AQ. Forgive me, I’m having trouble making any sense of your logic.

That’s because you don’t even address the logic. You just want to focus on your straw men.

Do you even know how much of the federal budget will be consumed by entitlements in the years to come?

Oh,..probably about 90+%.

We are trillions of dollars in debt and all you can say is ” that sucks “. This is very pathetic.

What do you want me to do? It’s not my fault. I don’t support the “New Deal” and “Great Society” programs. I’m just not willing to use that as an excuse not to wage a just war. If you want to go on about the cost of our government, go bug some liberal Democrat. They’re the ones who created the problem.

Same entity with proven communications, different bases of operations, same goal.

No, Al Qaeda in Iraq and Al Qaeda are two different entities. To say that they have “a jump in recruitments” without highlighting the fact that they are two separate groups is just plain dishonest.

We have done our job.

No, we’re finishing up our job. It’s not done yet.

If the Iraqi’s want freedom they have to work for it on their own, that’s the only way for it to work if it’s to last.

We can help them set up something stable, just like we did with Germany and Japan. (Now you’ll bring up the irrelevant fact that Congress declared war on Germany and Japan, so therefore it’s somehow different.)

Well, it’s not perfect freedom. That’s for sure. All we are doing is giving the Iraqis the opportunity for freedom. You can’t “install” it. I don’t know where you got that idea.

What the hell is ” perfect freedom “. If the Iraqis want freedom bad enough they will work for it on their own. Part of freedom is having the freedom to choose, like the old saying goes here in the U.S, ” Each generation has a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promitive of its happiness.” If the Iraqi’s are truley free then they have a right to put another Saddam in power if they want.

Add it to the list. Put it right beside Germany and Japan. .

The congress decalded war on Japan and Germany. We also had stronger leadership.

This segues right into my next point. We picked Iraq in no small part because it is the geographical center of the Islamic shitstorm. We are building long term bases and phasing out other long term bases in other parts of the world such as Germany. We are realigning some of our priorities and moving our military out of friendly areas and into unstable hostile areas.

We have bases in Saudi Arabia, infact that’s among the reasons why UBL declared war on our country. We also have bases in Afghanistan. The people that attacked us operated out of Afghanistan, and most of them originated from Saudi Arabia. How does Iraq fit into the picture? Saddam hated UBL and AQ. Forgive me, I’m having trouble making any sense of your logic.

That sucks, but war doesn’t wait for us to be able to afford it. In any regard, look what we’re getting for our money. The military comes at a bargain compared to everything else

This war is funded by Japan and China, and they hoard our dollars. Do you even know how much of the federal budget will be consumed by entitlements in the years to come? We are trillions of dollars in debt and all you can say is ” that sucks “. This is very pathetic.

No need to get rude. You haven’t earned it. If anything, I’d say that you’ve been pretty misinformed by thinking that the Afghanistan al Qaeda is the same one in Iraq. Let’s move on, shall we?

Same entity with proven communications, different bases of operations, same goal.

It’s not about imposing our form of government on them. We’re only giving them the opportunity for freedom. It’s up to them whether or not they want to take it, and with three hugely successful elections under their belt, they have shown that they want it. Remember the point above – you can’t impose freedom.

We have done our job. Our soliders are not the police, the job of the army is not police work. Right now as we speak our soliders are settling disputes between neighbors, while the Iraq government is on vacation. If the Iraqi’s want freedom they have to work for it on their own, that’s the only way for it to work if it’s to last.

Oh no. We won’t let them have the “freedom” of tyrant dictators. How very bad of both America and me.

The Iraqi people have a right to choose the path of their own country. Even if it’s in direct conflict with U.S. interests.

Like it or not, this right here makes it Constitutional.

Dr.Paul said it best, ” Transferring authority to wage war, calling it permission to use force to fight for peace in order to satisfy the UN Charter, which replaces the Article I, Section 8 war power provision, is about as close to 1984 “newspeak” that we will ever get in the real world. ”

Thanks for the preemptive insult. Couldn’t wait to see if I had anything to say about it, could you?

I call it how I see it. If you guys were anything near conservatives Ron Paul would not be smeared in the fashion he has. If you disagree with him on foreign policy fine, but are you seriously telling me his stances on other issues are not attrative to conservatives? His record and his energy is inspiring, his message is very attractive to me.

I believe Ron Paul would defend this nation better than bush, and better than the entire republican/democratic field. I must side with Reagan on this one, even if you don’t.

Neiman had said to “ape” – When you bring up various so-called facts and they are thoroughly refuted, you can’t ever seem to admit you were wrong, you just ignore that subject and select another attack point hoping to win there. You engage in obfuscation, misdirection and seem unable to focus at all.

Exactly.

It’s the misdirection that tells me that talking to “ape” is a study in worthless straw men.

You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about! I had the honor and privilege to vote for Ronald Reagan for President – twice!- while ape was still drooling and shitting his pants. (Well, he still does that, but back then, at least he had an excuse !) Get a clue, ape! And don’t do drugs! (You can’t afford to lose any more brain cells!)

reagan talked a big deal abouit small government, but rarley practiced what he preach. Do I need to break out some Reagan quotes about Ron Paul?

” Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. ” – Ronald Reagan

” As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our Armed Forces, and he always puts them first.” – Ronald Reagan

” We need to keep him fighting for a country. ” – Ronald Reagan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cU13IEZTH4

ape, you went on and on about how bad these “neocons” are and now you’re telling us that your candidate gets applause and cheers from them.

apparantly listening to Paul speak broke the neocon hold for a while. That all stopped when foreign policy and Iraq came up, with Giuliani demogoging the issue.

We put the Afghanistan al Qaeda on the run. The old school al Qaeda. A new group sprouted up, calling itself Al Qaeda in Iraq. It was born in 2004, a year after we had already put the Afghanistan AQ on the run. You’re getting the two confused or maybe you didn’t even know about the other group

Funny, because in a July 2005 letter to Ayman al-Zawahiri, Zarqawi outlined a four-stage plan to expand the Iraq war, spreading the conflict to Iraq’s secular neighbors and engaging in battle with Israel. They are very much in contact with one another, even though many of AQ’s leadership in Iraq has been decimated. They are all 1 unit, different base of operations. Different tactics for different locations.

It’s not an “Illegal occupation” unless you’re Saddam

We never declared war.

You’re getting the separate groups switched up again. Al Qaeda in Iraq, a group born in 2004, experienced a jump in recruitments. And then the United States Marines killed them in large numbers. They were killing the newly signing up radical Islamic enemy by the boatload as soon as they signed up.

Hmm interesting. That’s odd, according to the latest NIE report, issued this past july, stated that AQ as a whole was operating at almost full strength again, and are in Pakistan seeking chemical and biological weaponry. Please keep up to date when you’re having conversation with me.

Iraq was Saddam and his rule. You’re not sure what hell this guy brought to the world, his neighbors, and world stability? I’m not going to go through it with you. There are plenty of resources out there on the Internet where you can learn about how much of a sweetheart Saddam Hussein was.

That region is no more stable than when saddam was in power. AQ is in Iraq now because of us, and are using it as a primary tool for Jihadist recruitment in that country. Once we leave the Iraqis will take care of AQ on their own, in their own fashion. Saddam used alot of the weapons we supplied against his own people.

Yes, the people were starving. It looks like you do recognize some of what hell the people went through under Saddam

Saddam was a bad guy yes, the sanctions were just as bad. So was the corrupt UN.

As for the sanctions being heavy, well,..that’s what Saddam said. Does it feel weird to be in a dictator’s camp? Just curious. All the guy had to do was to abide by the terms of his surrender in 1991. He chose not to. And you’re defending this guy? That’s outrageous.

I don’t recall the congress declaring war on Iraq in 1991, what country was he surrendering to?

Ape: Of course, I have no documents to prove Saddam knew Zarqawi was in Iraq, but in a closed police state like Iraq it was impossible for him not to know.

Partisan hacks like yourself are ruining this country, you people are no better than the libs. It would also appear you all support a liberal foreign policy as well.

Boy did you miss that one big time, I am no Republican, I am a conservative, and that includes social/moral issues. I said it before, I say it again, I am as sick of the establishment of the Republican Party as anyone; but I am enough of a realist to know that no Third Party candidate can win election, let alone be able to govern. So, I try to push the Republicans as far to the right as I can, while being absolutely dedicated to defeating the Democrat (Socialist) Party. I don’t know what you mean about a liberal foreign policy.

Ron Paul had a pittsburgh rally on the 3rd of this month, he attracted over 1500 people.

McCain used to draw huge crowds as have others of that indendent nature, but how many of them got elected? Ron Paul cannot be elected, according to you he might have the greatest conservative credentials since Reagan, he may have the greatest ideas for this country; but he is an incredibly unappealing candidate personally and some of his policies are simply, by any definition – extreme. Ron Paul cannot be nominated, he cannot win; but you may go over the cliff with him if you desire, that plunge might satisfy you emotionally, but the results will be the same you both will lose and you will hand the Democrats a victory out of spite.

ape (continued) – The Iraqi people have a right to choose the path of their own country. Even if it’s in direct conflict with U.S. interests.

Dictators and “choice” don’t belong in the same sentence. Try again?

I call it how I see it. If you guys were anything near conservatives Ron Paul would not be smeared in the fashion he has.

I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about because I have never smeared the guy. How, exactly, do you think you are “call[ing] it how [you] see it”? You’re too busy making baseless assumptions.

If you disagree with him on foreign policy fine, but are you seriously telling me his stances on other issues are not attrative to conservatives?

I never once focused on anything other than Ron Paul’s foreign policy. If you would stop insulting me, maybe you’d notice that.

I’m done with you “ape”. It’s a waste of time. I’m tired of arguing your diversions, your rewriting of history, your insults, and your ASSumptions.

Have fun watching Ron Paul get less than 1% of the votes.

AQ was never there until we invaded.

Yet another leftie lie talking point from you. It is well-known that Zarqawi was there before the war, as a guest of Saddam. Think he came alone?

Please provide proof saddam had contact and knew zarqawi was in iraq. Nobody knew he was in Iraq, not even saddam. You guys are parroting debunked lies.

please take a good look at how people are engaging me leiman, you included, before talking to me like I’m the only one throwing insults.

Ron Paul is the only man who rallies true conservatives, independents, libertarians, and even democrats. Partisan hacks like yourself are ruining this country, you people are no better than the libs. It would also appear you all support a liberal foreign policy aswell. Ron Paul had a pittsburgh rally on the 3rd of this month, he attracted over 1500 people.

Facts like, how small his rallies are and how little money he’s raised?

haha. he has had the largest attendance at his rallies out of all the candidates. I posted earlier where all the candidates are getting their money. The fact that doesn’t bother you only tells me you’re another clone/shill. Did you not see the massive SI donations? almost 50% of Ron Pauls donations came from people who donated less than 200$, thats alot of people donating. He got the most Donations from the military out of all the candidates. Stop posting if you don’t know what you’re talking about, moron.

You’re projecting, I see. You are the shill for that idiot liberaltarian, RP. I, along with many others, have refuted all your lying leftie talking points, and that’s a fact.

I’m still waiting for your sources and the links to back all the BS you have spewed. You got debunked, run along shill. Everything spewed here from you guys has been outdated propaganda. ” Iraqs economy is booming ! “, fact: 60-70% unemployment. Thats just one example.

What part of “absolute dictator” don’t you understand? Saddam also gave money to the families of the so-called “Palestinian” suicide bombers. Before we ended Saddam’s dictatorship, Iraq was a terrorism-supporting country; now it isn’t. Duh

I know saddam payed out money to the families of palestinian suicide bombers, however, he had no ties to AQ and despised UBL. You have no proof of any ties, keep spouting neocon lies. You have been debunked, just go away you little shill.

Please provide proof saddam had contact and knew zarqawi was in iraq.

What part of “absolute dictator” don’t you understand? Saddam also gave money to the families of the so-called “Palestinian” suicide bombers. Before we ended Saddam’s dictatorship, Iraq was a terrorism-supporting country; now it isn’t. Duh.

Mmmmmm! Cheesy!

I think i’ve made Ron Pauls case very well,

The truth is, you’ve failed to make a compelling case! Whether that is the fault of the message or the messenger is another story.

Proof: Stop lying, we know that only ape provides any facts, so ergo, you must have made this up!

Presdiential campaigns don’t start for 6 months. And every single line you have posted in multiple threads are DIRECTLY from the “Doctor”s wiki page.

tell us, do you get to look at Hillary when you recieve your 30 pieces, or must you keep your eyes averted from her hideous visage? Good little socialist slave like you probably cums at the sound of her voice.

My link provides the exact words out of the constitution. Here is it again : http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/hr3076_ih.htm

My constitution link is the first link, this is the legislation link.

Proof, you got it so rattled it wont respond to you. Starting in the 1st Paulette post last week I saw this flood of wikishit from his mental midget minions, thus I knew from the beginning it was just another campaign staff kabuki dance, and grabbed the derision heaping shovel and commenced to heaping.

I notice, also, that Paulette’s past is quite bleached out at wiki. Curious. 20 years of details are rather thin. Just who did all that editing? And what position in Paulette’s campaign staff do they hold?

I hope the surge ends up being a success. I’m more concerned about the sectarian divide, and how the government is going to function. So far it has failed to prove it can function. If it fails to function more sectarian violence is going to occur, espcially if the unemployment rate continues to stay at 60-70%.

You have proven nothing to me robert, I have debunked all of your garbage. Please don’t reference Liberal talking heads to me, I’m no liberal, I could care less what they think. All of my points have been raw facts. It would seem anything that doesn’t fall in line with your narrow view of reality is a ” leftie ” talking point, even the latest NIE. You’re a d-bag man, go sacrifice a puppy for your god GWB.

Every single line you have typed concerning the “Doctor” is taken verbatim from his wiki page. You really should return all that money Hillary08 has paid you before they get sued for your plagiarism

Not true. It’s already been established that you’re a complete moron. 2hotel9 who do you support? How does it feel supporting a leftist foreign policy while claiming to be a conservative?

Ape: You are a libertarian not a socialist, I’ll defend your Paulite credentials.

Your boy Bush has expanded the federal government by almost 40% since clinton left office. The entire GOP leadership has no objections to the welfare/warfare state.

You are right and we conservatives are very unhappy about that fact! What is the choice? Democrats? No! Ron Paul? No! So, until and unless someone better emerges we’ll have to try and force the guys we came to the dance with to get the hell back in step with Reagan Conservatism. Please don’t repeat that Paul is, he may be to some degree, but he is also an Individual Anarchist Libertarian and holds some extreme Libertarian views that to many of us, make him more dangerous than the alternatives.

Ape: You are a libertarian not a socialist, I’ll defend your Paulite credentials

I’m actually an independent conservative-libertarian, I belong to no political party. I do however vote for my local republican leaders, I feel they do a good job. Ron Paul is a conservative-libertarian, just like Reagan, and is serving his 10th term as a republican congressman.

You are right and we conservatives are very unhappy about that fact! What is the choice?

The choice is to vote out the phonys, the same damn people keep getting elected. I find it odd how people especially ” conservatives ” say they are fed up with Bush and are unhappy, yet they manage to throw support behind someone like Rudy Giuliani, or Fred Thompson, who are just as corrupt and incompentent.

Ron Paul? No! So, until and unless someone better emerges we’ll have to try and force the guys we came to the dance with to get the hell back in step with Reagan Conservatism

And how long has this been going on? well over a decade now since the republican revolution. What have we gotten from them? An even bigger government and more debt, that’s something we expect from liberals. Ron Paul has the most conservative record in congress, he represents true conservatism and is more in line with Reagan than anyone else. We are dealing with politicans here man, they will say anything if they think it will get them a vote. Look at the voting records and compare it to what they preach. Ron Pauls record has consistently matched what he has preached for 2 decades.

Ron Paul was one of a few who supported Reagan back when he went up agahinst Ford, we need to stand behind Ron Paul like he did with Reagan and support this man. Washington needs a Doctor, not a lawyer.

Please don’t repeat that Paul is, he may be to some degree, but he is also an Individual Anarchist Libertarian and holds some extreme Libertarian views that to many of us, make him more dangerous than the alternatives

Please look at his record, it’s a pure consistent conservative record and it’s very admirable, much more admirable than the others. He follows and respects the constitution, I dont consider that anarchist. The alternatives are the dangerous ones, they are nothing but borrow and spenders, who will do nothing to secure our borders, and will do nothing about the massive size of the federal government. What are the alternatives anyways? A left wing authoritarian mayor who ran the biggest sanctuary city in the country when he was in office? that’s not much of an alternative if you ask me, I will take a small government conservative-libertarian anyday.

I gotta agree with Buchanan on that one.

Another reactionary; it figures. He doesn’t spew leftie talking points like you do, though.

the current GOP establishment are traiots

I dont know how in the hell that happened. Traitors*

but at heart he is an individual anarchist, despises the military and his positions are wholly contrary to the current Republican establishment and that can be very appealing,

That’s not what Reagan said. Remember the 11th C you were spouting off about? I have already proven you to be a misinformed kool aid drinker, run along now.

The justness of a war is determined by the monetary cost? That’s pretty shallow.

The Iraq War is not just, no matter whose yardstick you use. If you think its just, then we could wage 20 or 30 ‘just’ wars right now. BS.

This is the only man in the race who attracts democrats, real conservatives, libertarians, independents, constitutionalists, and even greens

I’ve also heard that he’s the ONLY MAN WHO CAN SAVE AMERICA!!!!!!!11!1