Say Anything Blog

First of all, I would like to thank Rob for playing PeaceMaker and for his analysis along with his candid admission that he “isn’t much of a gamer these days.”

We value his opinions just the same.

We have had similar comments from players that find the Palestinian side much easier than the Israeli, winning it in a time similar to Rob’s success as the Israeli leader.

From hundreds of players comments to date it indicates that a pre-existing collection of opinions and biases that are exposed that make one side “harder than the other”.

Rob’s are easy to see in this closing statement;

“the extremism and hostility of radical, Islamic, Jew-hating Palestinians.”

Having worked with both groups for years on this project it became clear that this sweeping character assassination of an entire population of people is no different than the many dehumanizing efforts in war of the past, Indians, Japs, Gooks, etc.

The smaller world provided by the Internet allows one to see past propaganda such as this and see people for what they really are in majority. Fathers, Mothers, Sons and Daughters that want to live a worthwhile life.

This fight for peace is a hard one, and the weak willed people that would rather perpetuate the prejudices of the past will fight against any change that damages the validity of their ancient positions that there will always be war and killing and suffering.

Rob, go back and win that Palestinian side, it will only be a small start, but a start none the less.

And once again, thank you for playing PeaceMaker.

Translation:

Rob: Sorry you were too stupid* to see my brilliant insights, but thanks for playing!

* “weak willed”, biased etc.

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

So, Joe? How long have you lived in Israel? And have you paid the royalties on that title? It being the title of a novel and movie. Not to mention a patented handgun as well.

I was wondering what the deal was when I saw that advert in the lefthand column. I myself have really been digging on Warcraft lately. Not being able to work outside I have had a bit-o extra time.

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That is just so special! The goal of the game is to force the Jews to surrender, either through international pressure, or through infiltrating their government and toppling it from within. Ain’t that just lovely?

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Joe Stafura said, Having worked with both groups for years on this project it became clear that this sweeping character assassination of an entire population of people is no different than the many dehumanizing efforts in war of the past, Indians, Japs, Gooks, etc.

The smaller world provided by the Internet allows one to see past propaganda such as this and see people for what they really are in majority. Fathers, Mothers, Sons and Daughters that want to live a worthwhile life.

Really? Perhaps you could go on to explain why the Palestinians throw block parties every time one of the neighborhood kids blows himself up. Or perhaps you could explain why television for Palestinian children have heavy messages of hatred and suicide bombing.

Don’t bullshit us Joe. Most of us here don’t take kindly to that kind of behavior. Unless you have heavy blinders on, you should know by now that if the Palestinians stop fighting, there will be no more war.

To answer of few of the questions in the posts,

I have not lived in Israel and did not create the game, I am a social entreprenuer. The game was developed with help by members from both countries some that live there right now. Asi Burak, was born and lived in Israel for the first 33 years of his life.

2hotel9,your comment is hard to reply to any other way than saying we worked for two years with representatives of both groups and have arrived at the desired outcome, one where neither side is completely happy. That indicated balance and fairness.

Liksidshoe’s comment is based on the western news reports, which interestingly are viewed as being biased towards Israel by most of the world outside of the US. I am not qualified to evaluate that since I am in the US and have only lived out of the country a short time many years ago.

A better source might be the work of Dr. Attran, who has interviewed the families of many suicide bombers and recorded their statement. Almost universally every Palestinian parent felt grief at the loss of the offspring, and wished that they were still alive. The cause of the extremist groups are advanced every time that propaganda films are aired as ppopular public opinion.

Lastly Proof’s translation was incorrect, there is no doubt that Rob is a very bright individual and I was serious about appreciating his comments.

The small mindedness that I was referring to was the defeatist attitude that I hear in statements like, There will always be war, Jews and Arabs can never live together, etc.

Be sure we are humble in our personal abilities to change these things, but determined that every step makes the seemingly impossible more possible. If we can move one inch in that direction then we have made a difference.

And be sure, we are humble in our aspirations

Joe, thanks for coming and having a dialog with us about this game.

Let me say first that I never said that Jews and Arabs can’t live together.  I’d note that Israel, the only liberal democracy in the middle east, has plenty of Muslims living within it’s borders who are free to worship as they see fit.  If it were solely up to Israel I think the Muslims and the Jews could live in peace.  The problem is that it isn’t up to just Israel.  The Arabs have a part to play too, and they play that part with unmitigated hatred and suicide bombings.

This is how I see the conflict: If the Arabs quit fighting there would be peace.  If the Jews quit fighting the Arabs would continue to attack because they would still want to obliterate Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.

Where your game fails is that it fails to recognize just how irrational most of the forces on the Palestinian side of this conflict are.  They are ostensibly fighting for their land and an independent state, but to this observer that seems like little more than an excuse for jihad against the Jews.

There can be peace in this conflict, but it isn’t going to happen until the moderate, rationale Palestinians (and there are some) are able to eject the extremists from their midst.  Otherwise any peace struck between Israel and the Palestinians will just be tarnished by the extremists who will continue to attack.  No agreement, short of the Jews packing up and getting off Allah’s land, is going to satisfy the extremists.  They’ll continue to attack, Israel will continue to defend itself, and we’ll be stuck right back where we started.

Peace isn’t impossible, but it isn’t Israel who holds the key.  It’s the Palestinians themselves.  They could have peace if they really wanted it, but it seems that most of them don’t want it at all.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob,

Your opinion is received and respected. Who holds the “key” is something that can’t be known with much certainty based on the knowledge that I have, I just hope that who or what ever puts in the lock sooner vs. later.

Your point on modeling irrationality is a good one, modern AI methods are based on the best available “Probability” generators but for any of you that have played the stock market and bought a “sure thing” you have seen the flaws them first hand. The fact is that big complex systems are very hard to understand, and social systems are as complex as they come.

Our random events and some of the responses are meant to simulate irrationality, but as we know, once you really understand an area, it isn’t really irrational territory anymore. The response to the same action will be different at times and not always in the expected way.

Overall PeaceMaker is meant to be a devoid of agenda, rich multi media experience that occupies one for 2-6 hours dependent on your approach, heck for $20 that isn’t a bad deal is it?

Your opinion is received and respected. Who holds the “key” is something that can’t be known with much certainty based on the knowledge that I have

Thanks, Joe, but to me it seems pretty evident that the Palestinians hold the key.  This conflict would have been over long ago had not every bit of real progress toward a reasonable solution been derailed by yet another terror attack.  You take the anti-semitism and extremist jihad out of the equation and the conflict is over.

I did like Peacemaker’s visuals.  That part was well done and perhaps I should have mentioned it in my post, but I zeroed in on the defects I saw.  Mostly that the game is too simplistic and doesn’t really reflect the truth of the conflict.  Not as I see it anyway.

But I think the intention behind the game is pure.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

This is how I see the conflict: If the Arabs quit fighting there would be peace.  If the Jews quit fighting the Arabs would continue to attack because they would still want to obliterate Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.

Succinct.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Damn, Joe, you need to get into some of our discussions about climatology. Someone who knows what a probabilty generator is and how poorly they work when applied to complex systems could really add some tobasco to the debate.

As the Israelis have(and continue to) learned, giving in to terrorists breeds more terrorism. By legitimizing Arafat peace in the Mid-East was made an unattainable dream. Islam needs a Reformation. Anything short of that is a continuation of, and expansion of, the last 50 years. Human Society can not survive when a substantial portion of it worships death over life. You can not “buy off” or negotiate with those who see this life as a punishment. Islam must stampout the deathcult, Wahabism. It must also lay aside the internecine fued between Sunni and Shi’a. Until this happens we are all at peril. And to advocate anything less is suicide for non-Muslims.

I am sure the creators of this game have the best of intentions. Negotiation with, and capitulation to, terrorists is just plain wrong.

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There is a lot in your post 2Hotel9 that is out of my scope so my response is limited to this comment you made that may be considered to be referencing PeaceMaker.

“I am sure the creators of this game have the best of intentions. Negotiation with, and capitulation to, terrorists is just plain wrong.”

I want to be sure that it is understood that PeaceMaker does not force or singularly recommend (there are always two positions on any advise the game provides) negotiation with terrorists. Nor is it required to be successful.

Out of your scope. Sorry to hear that. Capitulation and submission are 2 steps toward the Wahabi governed Caliphate. Hope you live to see it in all its glory. I will fight it till my dying breath, as will my son and his.

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The unemployment rates in the Palestinian areas is above 50%, and amongst the 20ish, this is about 90%. Maybe poor, angry, and idealist youths are a problem?
I’d personally ignore 2Hotel9. He thinks because some Muslims are `death-cultists’, then all must be.
If we apply the same logic to Christians, quoting the ever compassionate and wise Ann Coulter:

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.--Ann Coulter

I could then unfairly ask: Are Christians the biggest threat to global peace?

“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

2H9- Moderate Muslims are not wiping out the deathcult Wahabis, they are standing silent. How many suicidebombers has Ann Coulter sent into crowds of innocent women and children? How many rape victims has Ann Coulter ordered stoned to death? Just a rough estimate will do, AV:TFR.

2H9- Perhaps instead of murdering their own women and children unemployed Palestinians should clean up their cities and towns, work their farms and industry, and kill all false Imams and lying politicians. Why you think they are not doing that? Got a glib answer for that, AV:TFR?

The unemployment rates in the Palestinian areas is above 50%, and amongst the 20ish, this is about 90%. Maybe poor, angry, and idealist youths are a problem?

And the millions of dollars in aid siphoned off by Yasser Arafat into his private accounts...mightn’t that have gone to alleviate Palestinian unemployment?

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

...western news reports, which interestingly are viewed as being biased towards Israel…

Yeah, I can see where reporting ALL those pesky Palestinian suicide bombers and virtually NO Israeli suicide bombers might tend to bias someone with an open mind…

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

And the millions of dollars in aid siphoned off by Yasser Arafat into his private accounts...mightn’t that have gone to alleviate Palestinian unemployment?--Proof

I agree. Small wonder they didn’t elect his party in the last elections. Yasser Arafat sold out his own people while he, and his buddies, drove round in expensive new European cars. And then he gets a peace prize. Go figure.

How many suicidebombers has Ann Coulter sent into crowds of innocent women and children? How many rape victims has Ann Coulter ordered stoned to death? Just a rough estimate will do, AV:TFR.--Wifey

If you want a rough estimate of un-armed civilians shot, starved, or bombed to death, by American Christians in the last 70 years.
Japan:  More than a million.
North Korea:  A couple of million?
Indochina:  A couple of a million.
Iraq:  More than a million (if you count Clinton’s sanctions)
Central America: Hundreds of thousands.

Those are the big ones, what about the rest, I’d add another million for good measure. So the tally is about 6,000,000. And these are civilians. If we add in European Christians, we get to add the holocaust (since Germany was very Catholic, that’s another 6 million?). Go Christianity!! Only Marxism can claim more victims.

“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Iraq:  More than a million (if you count Clinton’s sanctions)

The great majority killed by the terrorists; then there is the half million or so killed by Saddam…

AV: You are a true anti-Christian bigot.  The Nazis were not Christians, even though the regular German people are about 50/50 Catholic/Lutheran, for your information.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

Hi all,
Now first of all im going to express some thoughts about this conflict, which you are -most of you- looking at through an Israeli-glasses, a thick-dark ones.

So, you got it, im a palestinian living a non-worthwhile life in a country that was born out of me (odd!) not born on it! Because we are the lill weak generation who’s passing time dreaming and creating our own real life. Blown-up; this is the natural consequence due to some sick, religious, zionist-driven mentalities porting from Tel-Aviv to Washington!! Yeah, this is exteremism!

You all are talking about peace, and making of. A really brilliant idea for you, me, the palestinian people, and almost of the world includes the libral-israeli’s. A Peacemaker game is a brilliant idea in the video games industry as well. At least it’s way more better than some racist games such as Israeli a*r fo*ce, and it might be the first neutral entertainment work ever to view the conflict this fairness.

And to finish this comment, i have to mention something important, that is, WE DON’T NEED PEACE (really!) BECAUSE WE ARE UNDER A BLOODY KILLIN OCCUPATION!!
Americans, im not a terrorist, but think about it for yourself, were you accepting such a brutal occupation on your lands?!?! No one never ever can stand aside while his dreams and ghosts of wealth are breakin in front of his eyes…
Detonated humans? did’nt like the idea? then give us some toys and let us do it the “perfect” way! may be like, er… HEZBOLLAH??!?! not bad at all

AV, you are very misinformed.  Naxi germany was very anti-Christian.  To prove it I will provide some quotes.

Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, noted:

“The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race… Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed.”

Yunus, Why are you letting your leaders scapegoat the Israelis?  All throughout history, the Jews have been blamed for all the world’s problems.  This was done, because it is always easier to blame someone else for our porblems, than to confront internal problems.  could it be that Israel is the example of what needs to be done in a society so that it functions?

Of course you can always seek to destroy them instead, and you will have to, because they will not give up the land freely.  That means having to cleanse every Jew on that land.  Are you willing to kill millions of Jews to do it?  Unfortunately, while getting that land may make you feel better, it will not solve any of the problems that the Palestinian people face.

If you want a rough estimate of un-armed civilians shot, starved, or bombed to death, by American Christians in the last 70 years.
Japan:  More than a million.
North Korea:  A couple of million?
Indochina:  A couple of a million.
Iraq:  More than a million (if you count Clinton’s sanctions)
Central America: Hundreds of thousands.

Geez… weren’t we at war with those countries?

Not that the civilians in totalitarian regimes have that much to say about the war the dictators got them into, but if you have munitions and ball-bearing plants that are making the planes, guns and tanks that are being used to make war on us and our allies—buddy you are fair game.

Are you counting the over 12 million that the National Socialists killed in their KZ camps, or the 68 million or so in the Soviet GULAGs or purposely starved to death?  Or the untold millions in Red China’s Lao Gai?  Or the Millions in Pol Pot’s Killing Fields? 

Not a ‘Capitalist’ killer in the bunch. Just like Rooster Cogburn used to say, ‘I never kilt nobody I didn’t have to. ‘

But, if you harbor terrorists, supply them with food and allow them to cache the weapons and mines used to kill American and allied troops, you are asking for a world of hurt.

If the terrorists hide behind you and launch attacks from hospitals and schools, you just might get shot.

It is the Socialist sub-humans that have waged war on humanity in this past 100 years that have claimed the lives of 100 to 270 million souls, most of them non-combatants.

Damn, dude, were you sniffing glue as an infant to be able to find evil where there is good, and fail to see the source of the greatest evil in this century?  Much worse than that, count yourself as one of them?

Man, you need to seek professional help.

...for great justice

All throughout history, the Jews have been blamed for all the world’s problems.  This was done, because it is always easier to blame someone else for our porblems...--Sluggo

In this case, it really was atleast partly their fault. Palestine and Transjordan were under British occupation. After WWII, they wanted to get out of the region. The UN drew up a plan to divide up the region, allowing the creation of Israel. One day before the British Mandate expired (after which the UN plan would come into effect), Israel announced the formation of a State. Subsequently the surrounding Arab nations invaded starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. In 1947, Jews made up only about 1/3 of the population (the rest were mainly Muslims), but by the end of the war, over 500 Palestinian villages had been razed, most Muslims had fled, and many of the remaining Muslims were forced into refugee camps in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank.

It is the Socialist sub-humans that have waged war on humanity in this past 100 years that have claimed the lives of 100 to 270 million souls, most of them non-combatants.--Move_Zig

Look at the bottom of my previous post. I already mentioned them as having a higher total. I don’t know why you assume I am `one of them’.

“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Because you spout their propaganda?

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And in your list above, are you telling us that America killed all these people because they were not Christian? Proof please.

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And in your list above, are you telling us that America killed all these people because they were not Christian? Proof please.--2Hotel9

Saying the reason why Muslims kill people is due to their particular religion, and discounting other theories, is daft. They kill each-other far more than they kill us.

So, using the `religion is to blame’ theory, I simply applied the same to all of the civilians killed by us. I am not particularly attached to that theory though, but I don’t want to kill anyone, and I am not a Christian.

“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

AV, they tell us they are killing in the name of their religion, matters not who they are killing. Every day, from minarets all over the Mid and Far-East they, Muslims, proclaim that they kill in the name of their God, and that they seek death above life. We are just helping them achieve their fondest wish.

Me and you already had this exact conversation. At least twice.

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Me and you already had this exact conversation. At least twice.

2H9: Memory loss caused by protein deficiency. Nothing that a big hunk of cow couldn’t cure! Dude needs a burger!

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

We had shake&bake chops for dinner! Its shake&bake! And I helped!

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Did anyone besides Rob and I checkout the game this thread is about?

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Make no mistake, the religion of Islam capitalized on pre-existing violent proclivities of the region—bloody oppression of others, total domination of women.  As much as I like to dominate women, what these guys do under the rubric of religion is inhuman.  Not inhumane, inhuman.

IMHO Islam is an excuse for violence, theft, rape and murder. 

Strong words?  You bet. 

If you think that’s harsh, look at the reality.

In the case of Islam, it’s not about religion, it’s about power.

By the way—when push comes to shove in the USA—Islamic riots like they’ve had in Europe will get stopped butt cold by either the authorities—or the armed populace.

There is such a thing as askin’ fer it.

...for great justice

One problem terrorist groups have is that when they infiltrate people into America those operatives vanish, for the most part. They get here, look around, and say"Screw that noise”, and build a life. Soviets had much the same problem. Their most effective operators were flipped Americans and Canadians.

Go figure.

And MZ, fuckin’ A, Troop!

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Did anyone besides Rob and I checkout the game this thread is about?--2Hotel9

I tried to click on the advertisement, but it tried to launch a popup and Firefox clobbered it. So I gave up.

According to Dawkins, the first 13 years after Mohammad became a prophet, he was peaceful, and talked about stuff like forgiveness. Muslims, if they want to, could quote these parts. I guess the uptake of his shiny new religion was too slow, so the rest tends to contain conquest and forced conversions. (Sort of the reverse of the old testament/new testament ordering.)

“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

I went to their webpage and got the demo to load, sort of. It was shot thru with virusi and nasties,so I to gave it up as a bad idea. I am currently into Warcraft, got me a mean Orc.

Islams expansion by the sword did not begin until it moved out of An Nafud into the region we now call Iraq.
The Bedu of the open desert, the Najad and Ar Rub’al Khali, converted easy because Islam promised a life better to the day to day existance of their culture. It spread quickly and peacefully into the lands at the eastern end of the Med because it was not opposed by the Hebrews, they actually welcomed anything that would bring some sort of civilised behavior to the tribes of the region.

It was when the missionaries sent by Mohammad were repeatedly killed by tribes of the Tigris/Euphurates Valley region. They were content with their culture and had no desire to"submit" to anyone. And then Islam ran head on into Persia. That is when the merde really hit the fan.

This is a bit condensed, but the basic outline.

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I went to their webpage and got the demo to load, sort of. It was shot thru with virusi and nasties,so I to gave it up as a bad idea. I am currently into Warcraft, got me a mean Orc.--2Hotel9

Counterstrike players call World of Warcraft the plague. Once someone starts playing it, they are never seen again.

And cheers for the summary.

“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Oh, Yea! It is a totally different game experience, that is for sure. I had played MechWarrior online, Halo and such off line. WoW is not like anything I have done in gaming before. Only been in since Christmas weekend, I am going to drop in around 7 and see how good a server connection I get. If the controls are herkyjerky I don’t waste the time. Nothing like trying to kill 3 people and stopping,and starting,and stoppingwhile they all keep moving at normal speed. Sucks!

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