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Thursday, September 21, 2006

Rethinking Jesus Camp.

After the lengthy and rather heated discussion we had here on Say Anything about the movie Jesus Camp I thought I'd offer Julie Neidlinger of the Lone Prairie blog a chance to post her thoughts on the matter. Julie is a North Dakotan and a former attendee of the camp in question. - Rob

The reaction to the Jesus Camp movie has surprised me. I admit being naively taken aback at the opinions spit out by right and left, the Christian and non-Christian, the opinions coming from all these great thinkers and bloggers I regularly read.

I’ve seen blogs link back to my original detailed post on the documentary and get their facts incorrect in the time it took them to read what I wrote and write their own commentary. I’ve found a blog that can’t even get my name right and that information is readily available. The national print media has consistently spelled the name of the town the camp was held in incorrectly. These, and other little things, are like a small mirror reflecting the bigger problem of people trying to figure out what Jesus Camp means: misinterpretation, and blindly trusting that misinterpretation. I say that if a person can’t even get the facts correct, they are certainly a long way from understanding even the most basic concepts involved.

Most of the people talking about this have two sources on which to base everything they’ve said, the Jesus Camp movie trailer and the ABC News clip.

If people are making a judgment on what Jesus Camp promotes based on the ABC News clip or the short movie trailer, I wonder that they would be so willing to use so little evidence to make such grand judgments. Even if they’ve seen the movie, a film shot through a camera through the eyes of outsiders having passed it through the editing room, I would still ask them the same question. What do you really know about this? For those of you that complain about the distorted view the “liberal” media gives you, why are you willing to swallow this newsreel, this documentary, as the complete truth?

Maybe because it fits a stereotype?

Do you think this is something new and terrifying that now faces our country? It is not. This is not a new movement. This is merely the first many have heard of it. People like me, normal and non-compound-living and non-manifesto-writing people, grew up in it. We’re all over. North Dakota and a lot of other places have a rich Pentecostal history that you probably don't know about, and yet you are still alive and America still exists.

The best example I can show people to offset many of the stereotypes I’m seeing is myself. When you say all these things about the parents that allow their children to attend, you’re saying it about my parents. When you wonder how these children can possibly grow up to be anything other than demented, you only have to look at me. When you assert these children can only grow up to be crazy or detrimental to the country, look at me and ask if that’s really a forgone conclusion you ought to be making. I’m not asking you to embrace it or send a donation check. I’m not asking you to turn a blind eye to Christians who have done stupid things. I’m simply asking you to think about it, knowing it is beyond your personal experience and knowing you might not really understand what you are seeing. Think about it without being lazy. Think instead of reacting. And try talking about it without using any of the following knee-jerk words: Nazi, Koresh, Cult, Child Abuse, Terrorist, Taliban, Crazy, Militant Islam, Jihad, Hezbollah, Jim Jones, Kool-Aid, Hitler, Brainwashing, Communist, Sick.

If you are concerned, then be concerned. Personally, I know that I am more concerned about those who are radical about not being radical about anything.

Comments

Avatar for aNONOMISLY

julie, have you seen the documentary?

..Becky Fischer, is an enthusiastic endorser of it so I guess it must be true to what she does.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

please disregard that question, I see you’ve already answered it here:

So here’s an effort to give an opinion I ought not be giving since I have not seen the movie and know there is nothing worse than a person who critiques, judges, or recommends a book or movie they haven’t read or seen themselves.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

Julie:  Two obvious questions spring to mind, perhaps you can clear them up.

What does it mean to be a “soldier of God” and how are you supposed to lay down your life for Jesus.

I imagine that the answers to these two questions will likely settle the matter.

The Whistler on September 21, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Avatar for dilettante

Oh, my.

Julie, well said. I think that there are far too many people in this world ready and willing to give opinions on anything and everything, personal ignorance of subjects be damned.

I’m about as far from Pentecostal as you’d get - godless atheist would be the term - but I grew up in a community with a lot of born-again types, and regardless of the uninformed but vocal opinions of a lot of the people around me here in New York City, I know they’re just regular folks. Although I don’t see the appeal of Jesus Camp, wouldn’t go see it, wouldn’t send my kids there (although if one expressed an interest, I would allow them to explore it) I’m an American...which means if it makes you happy to do so, well then, hey, have at it. Enjoy. I’d appreciate it if you don’t preach at me, but I can’t equate a minor annoyance like that with the deadly threat of jihad, so let’s get real here folks - Rosie’s an idiot. Christians (whether fundamentalist, standard-issue Protestant or Roman Catholic) aren’t a mortal threat and haven’t been for centuries.

Can we focus, please?

dilettante on September 21, 2006 at 01:09 pm
Avatar for Joe Miller

If you are concerned, then be concerned. Personally, I know that I am more concerned about those who are radical about not being radical about anything.

Love it! Well said.

Joe Miller on September 21, 2006 at 01:14 pm
Avatar for robert108

Julie: Thanks for the additional info and the personal testimony.  I suspected from the beginning that we weren’t getting the whole story, partly because this appeared on the MSM, and because leftie talk radio got on it.  Until you, I had never heard anything from former participants in the camp, and you confirm what I would expect.  The original post really brought all the anti-Christian extremists out of the woodwork here at SA, and we are all the richer for knowing how crazy they are.  To me, the entire thing is a First Amendment issue.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 01:52 pm
Avatar for Justin Jones

Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used ... bad news bears.  To say servant or follower is one thing, but soldier implies the use of force, violence and changing people’s minds through aggression and a lack of tolerance.

Justin Jones on September 21, 2006 at 01:55 pm
Avatar for Dave

This story is so big, it’s now being covered by the local Mayville college media. OK...I’m the one covering it.

Mayville college media broadcast

Edited by admin: fixed the HTML link. AGAIN. May I suggest a book Dave? Or you could just go here and be done in about three minutes.

Dave on September 21, 2006 at 01:58 pm
Avatar for robert108

JJ: Only in your mind.  Thank God for freedom of speech!

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 02:03 pm
Avatar for HG

Julie:

The explanations you offer are sufficient.  They snuff out the over-reaction of some.  However, the atmosphere and some of the behavior in the film is bazaar IMOP.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 02:06 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

ROB, some of us critisizing Pastor Becky Fischer and her camp aren’t advocating for her freedom of speech to be suppressed.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 02:07 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

see, HG is one of those:

the atmosphere and some of the behavior in the film is bazaar IMOP.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 02:08 pm
Avatar for Dave

The best example I can show people to offset many of the stereotypes I’m seeing is myself.

I’ll play. We have absolutely no proof whatsoever
A) That you are “normal” or
B) That, far more importantly, you ever even attended this camp.

You’ve given us no reason to believe your story. Furthermore, you’ve exhorted us not to “use so little evidence to make such grand judgments.” I’m just taking your advice. All we have is one blog post from a “Julie” telling us that this camp is not bad. I’m not willing to “swallow” this as truth.

Also:

The best example I can show people to offset many of the stereotypes I’m seeing is myself.

For someone so occupied with pointing out others’ grammatical errors, it’d be great if you could avoid making them.

Dave on September 21, 2006 at 02:13 pm
Avatar for robert108

aNON: In fact, there were a lot of comments recommending legal action against her.  That would qualify as suppression of free speech.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 02:14 pm
Avatar for Julie

I don’t want to waste a bunch of Rob’s space here at SA, and I don’t want to fall into the trap of responding to absolutely everthing in an attempt to steer discussion.

Regarding the phrases of “lay down your life” and being a soldier of God (The Whistler’s question), I have answered that in the ginormous comments section on my post. I don’t blame you for not wanting to slog through that… but the answer is there. I would give you a link to the comment but my comment permalinks are an area of code that I’ve been too lazy to debug because I don’t usually get lots of comments.

Basically, the two can come down to a question of who the fight is against (not other humans) and how laying our lives down is something we do for others and not to others, i.e. we do not become suicide bombers or kamikaze anything.

Julie on September 21, 2006 at 02:17 pm
Avatar for robert108

Dave: Your usual support of what you regard as freedom and liberty don’t seem to be exhibited here.  Why is that?

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 02:17 pm
Avatar for Joe Miller

Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used ... bad news bears. To say servant or follower is one thing, but soldier implies the use of force, violence and changing people’s minds through aggression and a lack of tolerance.

Not to pick on you Justin but this just emphasizes the ignorant, overly sensitive population of the world. 

If one studies the life of Christ, the saints, and the old testament you can find references to a stuggle for salvation and a fight to bring Christ’s message to the people. So I ask, is it really inappropriate to use the term soldier or warrior if the context is referring to a non-militant action.

Next thing that will enter into the debate over the use of the Fighting Sioux name will be the name indicates violence and warfare and therefore it is inappropriate.  What about when the Democrats run their commercials indicating that they are “Fighting” for us in Washington? Are they forcing their issues at gun point?

Joe Miller on September 21, 2006 at 02:17 pm
Avatar for Joe Miller

The blockquotes on my last comment got reversed.  It should be like this.

em>Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used ... bad news bears. To say servant or follower is one thing, but soldier implies the use of force, violence and changing people’s minds through aggression and a lack of tolerance.

Not to pick on you Justin but this just emphasizes the ignorant, overly sensitive population of the world.

If one studies the life of Christ, the saints, and the old testament you can find references to a stuggle for salvation and a fight to bring Christ’s message to the people. So I ask, is it really inappropriate to use the term soldier or warrior if the context is referring to a non-militant action.

Next thing that will enter into the debate over the use of the Fighting Sioux name will be the name indicates violence and warfare and therefore it is inappropriate. What about when the Democrats run their commercials indicating that they are “Fighting” for us in Washington? Are they forcing their issues at gun point?

Joe Miller on September 21, 2006 at 02:22 pm
Avatar for HG

Julie:

I have no problem with most terms you used in the video, as far as I can recall.  It is what appears to be borderline finaticism.  The believer’s service and obedience to God is nothing close to the commitment of Pakistani’s or any other ME people to Islam.  The commitment to Christ is a personal priority reflecting a very real, personal relationship to God, not a finatical reaction.  That coupled with the growing new evangelical efforts to redeem the culture, even by political means, and doctrine of the Kingdom, concerns me.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 02:40 pm
Avatar for docdave

Wow, I’ve come late into this discussions but what comes to mind is that in this secular society of ours, many will jump on anything that will make Christians look bad.

As far as your question, whistler, What does it mean to be a “soldier of God” and how are you supposed to lay down your life for Jesus, I can’t add much to Julie and Joe Millers excellent comments.  I will only say that however zealous the Christians, it is highly unlikely that they will be a threat to anyone since devote followers of Christ believe in love not violence.

docdave on September 21, 2006 at 02:59 pm
Avatar for Cliveblog

Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used ... bad news bears.

Kind of like the Salvation Army?  We know how dangerous they are.

Cliveblog on September 21, 2006 at 03:02 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

I don’t see any problem with with devout Christians considering themselves soldiers marching at the order of God.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 03:12 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

..I personally don’t see anything wrong with it, except with those that believe in using the Army comprised by said soldiers to impose the will of God.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 03:23 pm
Avatar for Actually

I can also use myself as an example. I went to a Christian school that used these methods and terrorized children into either believing their rhetoric or burning in hell. It was not a nice way to grow up. I’ll have to see the film to make a full judgement, but I can tell you that it’s hard to be open-minded towards a set of people screaming about war and enemies, especially ones that would dare bring Jesus, a bringer of peace, into it. GOD HAS NO ENEMIES. These are spiritually stunted, sick people. It’s very sad to me to see kids dragged into this kind of diseased mindset, but if I survived it with a modicum of global perspective and common sense about the evils of people who use religion as an excuse to “go to war”, maybe they will too.

Actually on September 21, 2006 at 03:30 pm
Avatar for HG

GOD HAS NO ENEMIES.

Most christians wouldn’t agree.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 03:34 pm
Avatar for Actually

And that is precisely why I’m not a Christian anymore.

Actually on September 21, 2006 at 03:37 pm
Avatar for Bat One

Most Christians wouldn’t agree, either.

Bat One on September 21, 2006 at 03:43 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

Actually says, And that is precisely why I’m not a Christian anymore.

You’re not a Christian anymore because God has enemies?

You’re better off sticking with your other reasons.

likwidshoe on September 21, 2006 at 03:44 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

ACTUALLY:

I went to a Christian school that used these methods and terrorized children into either believing their rhetoric or burning in hell.

you there got to one of the main reason of my uneasiness with what Pastor Becky Fischer does.

It isn’t as drastic as what Warren Jeff does, but it is still disturbing.

This extremelly impressionable kids are under the premise they would burn in hell if they don’t submit to her teaching and views of Christianity, and I’m sure they’re probably given a very detailed account of what hell looks like too.

..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell.  I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

..what’s an impressionable six years old to do under that circumstance?

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 03:45 pm
Avatar for Actually

You’re not a Christian anymore because God has enemies
You’re better off sticking with your other reasons.

No - read the post and reply again. I’m not a Christian because I think there is something inherently wrong with a philosophy that teaches that God has enemies. God has no enemies. God created all - therefore, there is nothing outside of God. Fighting, warfare, anger, rage - these are terms that separate a person from God’s love. Whipping children into an emotional frenzy and telling them they’re “being filled with the Holy Spirit” and that they need to “fight for Jesus” is twisted and stepping away from Christ’s message.

Actually on September 21, 2006 at 03:48 pm
Avatar for HG

And that is precisely why I’m not a Christian anymore.

It’s sad when people abandon their faith because of the behavior of some bad apples.  But, that is your choice to make.  My curiosity is peaked as to what you believed in the first place.

I grew up in ‘independent fundamental baptist’ churches. The scare tactics were used too.  I knew what I believed was true but what some were doing wasn’t consistant with truth.  I didn’t abandon my faith, but I did abandon manipulative christians bent on their own definition of successful ministry.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 03:54 pm
Avatar for robert108

aNON:

..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell. I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

I resent your attempt to equate Christians with real terrorists with a long record of actually terrorizing, raping, mutilating and killing people in the name of their faith.  There is no real comparison.  Shame on you!

If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on.  Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas?  That’s just for starters.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 04:03 pm
Avatar for robert108

God has no enemies, but humans do, especially when they set out to discover and live by the truth.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 04:07 pm
Avatar for Actually

At what age would you like to know what my beliefs were?

As a small child, I remembered being an old man. It was as plain as day. I mentioned it to my mom one day - that you die and start over again - and she hastily corrected me. I believed her.

I believed fervently in what I was taught at school until about the age of 12. I was so worked up that if I came home and the house was too quiet, I would become panicked that everyone had been raptured and I was left behind. I realize now that having that fear ingrained into my psyche was a tool for control.

One day, I was listening to a sermon, and I just got this message: “There’s nothing to fear. There never was.” I realized that God does not create to punish and destroy. Then I was pissed off for the lies I had been told and claiemd that I didn’t believe in God at all. This was a period of rebellion in my adolescence and was mostly to freak my parents out. It didn’t last.

My faith in God is now stronger than ever. It has simply evolved to know that anyone who preaches hate and intolerance - exclusion of any of God’s creatures - is not one that I need to be involved in.

Actually on September 21, 2006 at 04:08 pm
Avatar for HG

R108,

We could all glob on to the historical and current oppresion of athiests.  Russia and China to start with.  We need to have a separation of athiests and state.  Athiests have a wonderful history of atrocities.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 04:09 pm
Avatar for haha!

If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on. Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas? That’s just for starters.

Try George W. Bush. That’s one for you.

haha! on September 21, 2006 at 04:10 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

I said:

you there got to one of the main reason of my uneasiness with what

Pastor Becky Fischer

does.

It isn’t as drastic as what Warren Jeff does, but it is still disturbing.

This extremelly impressionable kids are under the premise they would burn in hell if they don’t submit to her teaching and views of Christianity, and I’m sure they’re probably given a very detailed account of what hell looks like too.

..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell. I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

..what’s an impressionable six years old to do under that circumstance?

I resent your attempt to equate Christians with real terrorists with a long record of actually terrorizing, raping, mutilating and killing people in the name of their faith. There is no real comparison. Shame on you!

If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on. Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas? That’s just for starters.

I haven’t say that is what Christians in general do, I’ve said that is what Pastor Becky Fischer does.  I too resent what she is doing, that’s exactly what my post was about!! My post wasn’t about what your typical Christian does. It was specifically about what Becky Fischer doesm why I resent it and am disturbed by it.  judging from you very emotional responce, you seem to vehemently resent what Pastor Becky Fischer does too?

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 04:20 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

people, ignore haha! ..he seems to be a troll and only seeking to incite.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 04:21 pm
Avatar for HG

I was so worked up that if I came home and the house was too quiet, I would become panicked that everyone had been raptured and I was left behind.

Actually,

Ya, been there done that.  I also used to hide from my sister to make her think she was left. 
One time on the way home from school, I through my bike and books down in the middle of the dirt road and hid in the brush.  My sister came along and freaked out.  I quickly jumped out to calm her down.  It use to be funny.  She has no problem with it today now that her faith is in what she knows to be truth.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 04:22 pm
Avatar for haha!

No, not a troll - just speaking the truth. George is a terrorist, he kills innocent people and claims to be a Christian. Come to think of it, he represents today’s version of Christianity quite accurately.

haha! on September 21, 2006 at 04:23 pm
Avatar for Actually

HG,
I’m not saying that was the only thing to make me walk off that particular path - though I still believe it was wrong for anyone to tell me that lie to begin with.

It’s great that your sis was able to reconcile your prank with reality and find happiness in her faith.

Actually on September 21, 2006 at 04:26 pm
Avatar for HG

We could all glob on to the historical and current oppresion of athiests

R108,

‘of’ should have been ‘by’

HG on September 21, 2006 at 04:26 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

These are spiritually stunted, sick people. It’s very sad to me to see kids dragged into this kind of diseased mindset
Actually on September 21, 2006 at 6:30 PM

I agree!!

Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used ... bad news bears.
Justin Jones on September 21, 2006 at 4:55 PM

I agree!!

I’ll play. We have absolutely no proof whatsoever A) That you are “normal” or B) That, far more importantly, you ever even attended this camp.

You’ve given us no reason to believe your story. Furthermore, you’ve exhorted us not to “use so little evidence to make such grand judgments.” I’m just taking your advice. All we have is one blog post from a “Julie” telling us that this camp is not bad. I’m not willing to “swallow” this as truth.
Dave on September 21, 2006 at 5:13 PM

Agreed!!!

Sorry Julie. I just don’t buy it. You are definitely not a neutral objective observer and are to close to the forrest to see the trees..

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 04:29 pm
Avatar for Actually

God has no enemies, but humans do, especially when they set out to discover and live by the truth.

“Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.” - Albert Einstein

Humans that think they have enemies in people who do not believe what they believe create hell - God doesn’t need to send anyone to it.

Actually on September 21, 2006 at 04:30 pm
Avatar for robert108

This is Hell, unless we transform it into Heaven.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 04:39 pm
Avatar for robert108

aNON:

I’ve said that is what Pastor Becky Fischer does.

Give me one example of Pastor Becky Fischer strapping bombs on children, murdering, raping and dismembering, hiding behind innocent civilians to get them killed, and launching thousands of ball-bearing filled rockets into civilian areas.  I know what you meant in the first place, and replied specifically to that.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 04:44 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

I said:

you there got to one of the main reason of my uneasiness with what Pastor Becky Fischer does.
It isn’t as drastic as what Warren Jeff does, but it is still disturbing.

This extremelly impressionable kids are under the premise they would burn in hell if they don’t submit to her teaching and views of Christianity, and I’m sure they’re probably given a very detailed account of what hell looks like too.

..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell. I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

..what’s an impressionable six years old to do under that circumstance?

ROB responds:
I resent your attempt to equate Christians with real terrorists with a long record of actually terrorizing, raping, mutilating and killing people in the name of their faith. There is no real comparison. Shame on you!
If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on. Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas? That’s just for starters.

Is that what you feel about what Pastor Becky Fischer has done?

..I haven’t say that is what Christians in general do, I’ve said that is what Pastor Becky Fischer does. I too resent what she is doing, that’s exactly what my post was about!! My post wasn’t about what your typical Christian does. It was specifically about what Becky Fischer doesm why I resent it and am disturbed by it. judging from you very emotional responce, you seem to vehemently resent what Pastor Becky Fischer does too?

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 04:44 pm
Avatar for robert108

haha:

Try George W. Bush. That’s one for you.

The US doesn’t have to use terrorist tactics, since we have the military and economic strength to win on our own.  Terrorists do what they do to prevail against a superior enemy by trying to make them lose heart and run away.  You are aiding the terrorists with your lies.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 04:47 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

THE following question just popped into my head:

The kids in Pastor Becky Fischer’s camp “pledge alligiance” to the “Christian flag”

Is there such a thing as “The Christian flag”?

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 04:54 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

Is there such a thing as “The Christian flag”?
aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 7:54 PM

Good point and hell no there isn’t!

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 05:01 pm
Avatar for robert108

Bezu: Actually, there is; at least in some of the Protestant sects.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 05:03 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

ROB is right:

The Christian Flag (MADE IN THE USA!)

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 05:10 pm
Avatar for Al Gore

These are spiritually stunted, sick people.
As compared to what?  The ‘great’ enlighteded secular minds that comment here?  To the atheists that are surely spiritually stunted since they don’t believe in a spiritual God? 
Would you say that muslims are ‘spiritually stunted’ since their indoctrination often results in violent actions?

Al Gore on September 21, 2006 at 05:12 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

tHERE also a pledge to it, which is base on our own pledge of allegiance, ..

Here it is:

I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 05:16 pm
Avatar for Al Gore

Wrong, wrong, wrong, with regard to the so-called Christian flag It has so far been adopted by very few churches in Europe. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and other non-Protestant branches of Christianity do not generally use the flag. The flag associated with the Catholics is the Vatican flag (see here) which is the flag of a valid soveriegn entity, the Vatican City

Al Gore on September 21, 2006 at 05:18 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

Wrong, wrong, wrong, with regard to the so-called Christian flag It has so far been adopted by very few churches in Europe. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and other non-Protestant branches of Christianity do not generally use the flag. The flag associated with the Catholics is the Vatican flag (see here) which is the flag of a valid soveriegn entity, the Vatican City

THE flag Pastor Becky Fischer’s kids camp pledge allegeance to is the one discribed on the wikipedia link I provided.

it’s in the following clip:
..watch intently

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 05:23 pm
Avatar for Al Gore

So what, anon.  Please explain to me how what one person does is representative of the mainstream.  And just because someone says that they are Christian doesn’t necessarily make them one.

Al Gore on September 21, 2006 at 05:28 pm
Avatar for Al Gore

So what, anon.  Please explain to me how what one person does is representative of the mainstream.  And just because someone says that they are Christian doesn’t necessarily make them one.

Al Gore on September 21, 2006 at 05:31 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

So what, anon. Please explain to me how what one person does is representative of the mainstream.


I don’t think Pastor Becky Fischer is representative of ‘mainstream’ Christian believes.

And just because someone says that they are Christian doesn’t necessarily make them one.

are you suggesting Pastor Becky Fischer is not a Christian?

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 05:37 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

To Anon And Robert on the C. Flag and the pledge:

Based on several sections in the policy on what Wikipedia is not, it is generally agreed that topics in most areas must exceed a certain threshhold of notability and/or importance in order to have an article in Wikipedia.

Pledge to the Christian flag
From Wikipedia,
To meet Wikipedia’s quality standards and make it more accessible to a general audience, this article may require cleanup.
This article provides insufficient context
This article lacks information on the importance of the subject matter.

In other words; no one puts much credence into the idea of a “christian” pledge of allegiance to a chriatian flag before BF’s camp.
That’s why it’s not found in wikipedia.

It’s nonsense.From a religious perspective, Allegiance is pledged to God not to flags.

Also, as algore points out, there are many “christian” flags (here) but they are more akin to “coats of arms” than they are to flags that represent nations.

How many people have pledged allegiance to a family crest?

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 05:38 pm
Avatar for docdave

are you suggesting Pastor Becky Fischer is not a Christian?

I have no idea but it’s seem unlikely that she is part of any major denomination.  You have information about this?

docdave on September 21, 2006 at 05:42 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

are you suggesting Pastor Becky Fischer is not a Christian?
aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 8:37 PM

Ah, personally, Iwould never just suggest it.

I’ll state it straight out. She’s some sort of Frankenstein.

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 05:42 pm
Avatar for docdave

Has anyone heard of the ‘Apostles Creed’?  If there is something that can be called a Christian pledge, that is it.  Catholics say the creed during every Sunday service.  The American flag is also prominent in Catholic facilities and saying the American pledge is not uncommon.  Unlike the muslims, respect for nation does have a place in Christian lives.

docdave on September 21, 2006 at 05:52 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISY

bezu, what I wanted to know was if more Christians than just Pastor Becky Fischer’s kids use the Christian flag.  The link I provided comfirms what rob said, ..

many protestant around the world use the Christian flag:

The “Christian flag” is a flag designed to represent all of Christianity, but flown mainly by Protestant churches in North America, Africa, and Latin America. The flag has a white field, with a red Latin cross inside a blue canton.
..

Since the Christian flag was inspired by the flag of the United States, it takes its colors and overall design from the American flag. However, elements of the flag represent Christian concepts.

The flag’s most conspicuous symbol is the Christian cross, the most universal symbol for Christianity. The red color represents the blood of Jesus and brings to mind his crucifixion. Christians believe that Jesus’ death and resurrection is the means God uses to save believers from their sins. The cross and blood have been used since earliest Christianity to symbolize salvation through Jesus; in the words of the Apostle Paul, “Through [Jesus] God reconciles himself to all things… making peace by the blood of the cross” (Colossians 1:20).

The white field draws on symbolism throughout the Bible equating white clothes with purity and forgiveness. People who have been “washed white as snow” in the Bible have been cleansed from their sins (Isaiah 1:18).

The symbolism behind the blue canton is uncertain. It has been interpreted to represent Heaven, truth, or the Christian ritual of Baptism in water. Most likely it is simply a carry-over from the American flag.

Since the flag is not tied to any specific denomination or church institution, it represents Christian ecumenism, the unity of all Christians despite historical, cultural, and dogmatic differences. Its simplicity makes it easily copied by any community of Christians.

The canton of this flag transgresses one of the traditional rules of flag design, which states that two colors (other than white or yellow) have to be separated by a metal (silver = white, or gold = yellow). The white field would also be advised against in conventional vexillology as it is easily mistaken for the white flag of surrender.

..
The flag was first accepted by the Mainline Protestant denominations in the United States, and by the 1940s many institutions had described policies for displaying it inside churches. During World War II the flag was flown along with the U.S. flag in a number of Lutheran churches, many of them with German backgrounds, who wanted to show their solidarity with the United States during the war with Germany.

The Christian flag spread outside North America with Protestant missionaries. It can be seen today in or outside many Protestant churches throughout the world, particularly in Latin America and Africa. It has so far been adopted by very few churches in Europe. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and other non-Protestant branches of Christianity do not generally use the flag.

Some American churches practice the recitation of a “pledge of allegiance” or “affirmation of loyalty” to the Christian flag, based on the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag. One version of this pledge of allegiance runs, “I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior, for whose kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe.” The earliest version of this pledge was, “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the Savior for whose kingdom it stands; one brotherhood uniting all mankind in service and love.” [1]

There is some disagreement among American Christians over whether the U.S. flag or the Christian flag should be given prominence when both are displayed in a church or elsewhere.

In 2003, a new “U.S. Christian Flag”, depicting a bald eagle clutching a blood-stained cross and quoting verses 4 and 14 from Matthew 24 ("And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world...and then shall the end come"), was designed by a Maryland artist who regarded Overton’s flag as “crisp and dignified, but politely cold.” It has gained favor among some conservative American evangelicals.

But I guess you can argue the Protestant churches that use such flag are co-opting Christianity by calling it “the Christian flag.” ..you also raise a very interesting point about pledging allegiance to it as Pastor Becky Fischer has the kids in her Jesus Camp do.

aNONOMISY on September 21, 2006 at 05:53 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

I both admire and appreciate a straight shooter:

Ah, personally, Iwould never just suggest it.

I’ll state it straight out. She’s some sort of Frankenstein.

If only all moderate Muslims were as DocDave is a Christian ..

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 05:56 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

aNONOMISY

many protestant around the world use the Christian flag:

Anon

I just checked. I couldn’t find the chapter and verse in the Bible that deals with the “FLAG” stuff.
Can you help me out with this?

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 06:00 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

if all moderate Muslim were as DodDave is a Christian, the world would be a much better place.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 06:01 pm
Avatar for Julie

To Dave and Bezu Fache and those who question me as a source, I would answer that if you think you only have one blog post from which I am asking you to base your opinion on, and that I am being hypocritical in doing so, all you need to do is move your mouse so that the cursor is over the link, and click the left button on the mouse. This will take you back to my blog which has a very long comments section for the post in question. My entire website also has an about section, a blog archives section, an art gallery, an FAQ section, a method for you to contact me, a resume, and numerous other means of measuring my truthiness.

I mean seriously. Come on.

Julie on September 21, 2006 at 06:02 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

I just checked. I couldn’t find the chapter and verse in the Bible that deals with the “FLAG” stuff.
Can you help me out with this?

I don’t think there is, that’s why I pointed out that a good argument can be made that Pastor Becky Fischer and other using and pledging allegiance to what they reffer to as “THE Christian flag” are merely co-opting Christianity.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 06:05 pm
Avatar for robert108

aNON:

I don’t think there is, that’s why I pointed out that a good argument can be made that Pastor Becky Fischer and other using and pledging allegiance to what they reffer to as “THE Christian flag” are merely co-opting Christianity.

Your conclusion says more about you and your agenda than about Becky Fischer.  “Judge ye not, that ye be judged, and whatsoever measure ye mete, it shall be meted out unto you.” Or, if you prefer: “For every action there is a reaction, equal in force and opposite in direction.”

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 06:20 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

I mean seriously. Come on.
Julie on September 21, 2006 at 9:02 PM

Julie,
I don’t question your sincerity or your belief in the bona fide veracity of your personal experiences.
But I do believe that since you have been so drastically immersed in this eccentric religious philosophy for your entire life, it has to have made you somewhat biased in favor of it and because of this, could perhaps have made you a bit myopic.

I can only conclude then that it would be impossible for you to be objective about the subject matter.

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 06:27 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

Pastor Becky Fischer and other using and pledging allegiance to what they reffer to as “THE Christian flag” are merely co-opting Christianity.
aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 9:05 PM

Definitely agree!!

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 06:32 pm
Avatar for Dave

Julie writes:

To Dave and Bezu Fache and those who question me as a source, I would answer that if you think you only have one blog post from which I am asking you to base your opinion on, and that I am being hypocritical in doing so, all you need to do is move your mouse so that the cursor is over the link, and click the left button on the mouse. This will take you back to my blog which has a very long comments section for the post in question. My entire website also has an about section, a blog archives section, an art gallery, an FAQ section, a method for you to contact me, a resume, and numerous other means of measuring my truthiness.

...thus proving that you did indeed go to the camp when you were younger, that it was not as extreme as portrayed in the documentary film, that you did not emerge from it harmed in any way, that your experience was typical from that of others’, and that the camp hasn’t changed in the 10-30 years since you last went to it.

Of course! How silly of me!

Dave on September 21, 2006 at 06:32 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

ROB, I don’t think its appropriate to reffer to the flag they pledge allegiance to as “THE Christian flag.” It suggests that what they are doing is mainstream Christian, when in fact it is not.

..the flag that Pastor Becky Fischer kids “pledge allegiance” to and which they call “THE Christian flag” isn’t really “THE Chistian flag,” that is why I say that some can well argue she’s co-opting Christianity in that regard.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 06:34 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

Of course! How silly of me!
Dave on September 21, 2006 at 9:32 PM

3 for 3--batting a thousand

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 06:35 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

ROB, even I was fool into believing that what Pastor Becky Fischer kids were “pledging allegiance” to and calling “THE Christian flag” was in fact as they said, the Chistian flag.  It is not “the Christian flag”.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 06:38 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

..such a thing as “the Christian flag” does not exist.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 06:39 pm
Avatar for robert108

aNON: So, it’s a semantic argument, then.  It’s “a” Christian flag, rather than “the” Christian flag; is that your point?  It’s still not “co-opting” anything, as no one “owns” Christianity.  You don’t understand Protestantism, I guess.  It’s decentralized; nobody owns it, and everybody gets to do their own thing.  It’s a lot like what we do here in the US.  That’s the point.  Becky has just as much right to call her flag “the Christian flag” as anyone else does.  It’s not monarchial, no matter how hard you try to pigeonhole it that way.  Sorry.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 06:41 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

.such a thing as “the Christian flag” does not exist.
aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 9:39 PM

Roger that I’m 10-7 od

Later!!!

Bezu Fache on September 21, 2006 at 06:43 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

here’s a somewhat apt anology:

Calling the flag her kids pledge allegiance to “the Christian flag” is almost like two or three states adopting a unique flag and then pledging allegiance to it and calling it “the American flag.” Wouldn’t those states be co-opting the concept of a nation called the United States of America?

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 06:44 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

aNON: So, it’s a semantic argument, then. It’s “a” Christian flag, rather than “the” Christian flag; is that your point? It’s still not “co-opting” anything, as no one “owns” Christianity. You don’t understand Protestantism, I guess. It’s decentralized; nobody owns it, and everybody gets to do their own thing. It’s a lot like what we do here in the US. That’s the point. Becky has just as much right to call her flag “the Christian flag” as anyone else does. It’s not monarchial, no matter how hard you try to pigeonhole it that way. Sorry.

IT’S more than just semantic, they are attibuting something to Chistianity that is not

..that being said, saying “I pledge allegiance to THIS Christian flag ..” would be much more appropriate, given the facts.

aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 06:50 pm
Avatar for robert108

aNON: Like I said, a semantic argument from someone who obviously doesn’t understand the nature of Protestant Christianity.  It’s decentralized, and so no one “owns” it.  If I want to start my own church and create a flag to salute, I have as much authority to call it the Christian flag as anyone else.  The Protestant Reformation wasn’t about exchanging one Pope for another one; it was returning Christianity to its roots: individual enlightenment, which was the real message of Jesus Christ.  Under Judaism, the best you could do was follow the Law, and how well you did it was judged by the Rabbis and the Elders.  Jesus Christ said that we each have a personal relationship with God, and that our Salvation was between each person and God.  Roman Catholicism morphed that into a monarchial form, with the Pope at the top, and layers of Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops and all the rest underneath.  Martin Luther changed all that, and returned to Christianity as a personal religion.  Fundamental Christianity, then is as different from fundamental Islam as night is to day.  There is no comparison whatsoever.  You are obviously triggered by the word “fundamental” and your thinking stops as soon as your fear of it is activated.  There is no central authority in Protestant Christianity.  It is as diverse as the USA itself.  Individual independence.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 07:21 pm
Avatar for Gene Redlin

My only regret is that both my kids didn’t get a chance to go to a single vision camp like Pastor Becky puts on.

It is impossible for those outside to understand the importance of this to those who care about the future of the generations to come.

I want my kids and grandkids to be soldiers of the Lord (Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching as to war, with the Cross of Jesus going on before).

I will see this movie if it comes to our area.  But I am not expectant of a fair treatment.  I did hear an interview with the two young ladies who filmed this.  They were impacted by the spirit of the time they spent with these kids at Devils Lake and Pastor Becky.

There is so much more that God has for all of us, we just cut ourselves off and demand explanation and reason to understand it.  In fact, God refuses to subject himself to human reason.

I’m really OK with all that.  I have not ever ever regretted going further with God as I have.

I know this seems radical to you. But being a loyal dedicated American seems radical to those from France. 

Spiritually some of the commentors are from France spiritually.

Gene Redlin on September 21, 2006 at 07:33 pm
Avatar for robert108

Bezu:

I can only conclude then that it would be impossible for you to be objective about the subject matter.

Is she out bombing unbelievers, murdering those who disagree with her, rioting over some imagined slight by a public official?  Is she promising to behead anyone who doesn’t follow her creed?

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 07:40 pm
Avatar for HG

Calling the flag her kids pledge allegiance to “the Christian flag”

The christian flag has been around for as long as I can remember.  They pledge went something like this:

I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag,
and to the Savior, for whose Kingdom it stands.
One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again,
with life and liberty for all who believe.

The christian flag was pledged after the American flag.  Ready for this?  Lastly we had a Bible pledge as well.  That pledge went:

I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God’s holy word.
I will make it a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.  I will hide God’s word in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

That was it.  No harm done there.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 08:37 pm
Avatar for HG

Fundamental Christianity, then is as different from fundamental Islam as night is to day. There is no comparison whatsoever. You are obviously triggered by the word “fundamental” and your thinking stops as soon as your fear of it is activated. There is no central authority in Protestant Christianity. It is as diverse as the USA itself. Individual independence.

r108: Well said.

HG on September 21, 2006 at 08:47 pm
Avatar for robert108

Calling the flag her kids pledge allegiance to “the Christian flag” is almost like two or three states adopting a unique flag and then pledging allegiance to it and calling it “the American flag.” Wouldn’t those states be co-opting the concept of a nation called the United States of America?

Well, there’s that “Constitution” thing, and then there’s the Federal Government…
Good point, though.  Actually, Christianity is less centralized than is the USA.  Minor correction in what I wrote before.  It’s more like our economic system, without the Federal Reserve.

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 09:07 pm
Avatar for student student

Well, I found this interesting when viewing reviews of the movie: this pastor was actually on trading spouses. The way she is portrayed in Trading Spouses, and the way she is Portrayed in her own ‘Jesus Camp’ film put together are hideous. Here, she rips up the other family’s check and figures that ‘God’ wants her to spend her check on getting gastric bypass surgery. Check it out.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6B9GlayKS_0&mode=related&search=

student student on September 21, 2006 at 10:37 pm
Avatar for robert108

ss: And we all know how “real” those “reality” shows are…

robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Avatar for student student

robert108: and we all know how “real” she is to bother being on the show. If I were her, I wouldn’t be representing my congregation like that on tv.

student student on September 21, 2006 at 10:40 pm
Avatar for Bezu Fache

Spiritually some of the commentors are from France spiritually.
Gene Redlin on September 21, 2006 at 10:33 PM

OUCH geno!

Um bala shala ba sante cumduala basante......

Whoops..Sorry for that digression. I was just overcome by the holy spirit and had to speak in toungues for a second.

Is she out bombing unbelievers, murdering those who disagree with her, rioting over some imagined slight by a public official? Is she promising to behead anyone who doesn’t follow her creed?
robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 10:40 PM

Robert, did anybody make that assertion; or implication.

I don’t belive Fischer is even remotely similar to a terrorist.
I believe she’s a headline grabbing opportunistic con artist who’s out to make a buck off religion by destroying young minds with sensationalized emotional nonsense that has nothing to do with Christianity.

Her camp presentation is more akin to an Amway meeting than it is to a religious retreat.
Or maybe the Stepford Wives would be more comparable.

She “is” brainwashing a captive audience of defenseless young children into believing a very narrow set of intolerant principles.

This can’t be good for them; whether they grow up to be violent or not.

Most of them will spend many future years having to “deprogram” themselves so they can reallign themselves with normal religious values.

Does she have a right to do this?  Hmmm.... she definitely has the right NOT to be prohibited by the government from doing it.

Spiritually speaking (Gene)Does anyone really have a (spiritual)"right" to indoctrinate innocent kids with such extremist values?

Bezu Fache on September 22, 2006 at 12:57 am
Avatar for Bezu Fache

I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God’s holy word.
I will make it a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. I will hide God’s word in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

That was it. No harm done there.
HG on September 21, 2006 at 11:37 PM

I think the following words might be from some obscure Christian book but I’m not sure. They do seem oddly applicable reagrding this issue.

41 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint but you neglect justice and the love of God.

43"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.

46And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

53When Jesus left there, the

Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely

and to besiege him with questions, 54waiting to catch him in something he might say.

Bezu Fache on September 22, 2006 at 01:10 am
Avatar for lisa

Diletant,You should read the Christian history before you talk.You say christians have not been a threat for CENTUREIS??.hOW LONG DO YOU CALL A CENTUARY LEY ALONE CENTUAREIS?

Taking one life is like taking 10 lives, cause to the victim`s family ,YOU have taken their lives too.Less than a 100 yrs ago Christian fundamentalists were blowing up fellow BLACK churches in the STATES,let alone HANGING and BURNING them too.Not to forget the Genocide of the NATIVE Americans which you people tennd to shift aside as it never happend, or when it is brought up you Get angry and say “why bring long dead people back,what is gone is gone”. Then you start to bring up old habites and laws from Islamic pasts and what Mohammed said and did,and he has been dead over 1500 yrs ago.

Hitler was a Christian terrorist whom LESS than a centuary ago nearly wiped out Jews because of his RELIGIOUS idiology.Or that don`t count?

lisa on September 22, 2006 at 05:03 am
Avatar for Ken McCracken

Hitler was a Christian terrorist whom LESS than a centuary ago nearly wiped out Jews because of his RELIGIOUS idiology.Or that don`t count?

Man, are you ignorant. Hitler was not a ‘christian’ - among his first victims put into concentration camps were Catholic clergymen. He attacked the Jews because of his political ideology, not because he was waging a religious crusade against them.

So yeah, that doesn’t count.

As for burning black churches and the genocide against native Americans, that wasn’t done in the name of Christianity. It was cruel, it was immoral and it was wrong, but it wasn’t done for religious reasons.

Killing 3,000 Americans on 9/11 was in fact done in the name of Islam, however.

Stop trying to play this little ‘moral equivalence’ game, Lisa. You are losing badly, are convincing no one, and make yourself look pretty silly.

Ken McCracken on September 22, 2006 at 05:14 am
Avatar for Actually

These are spiritually stunted, sick people.
As compared to what? The ‘great’ enlighteded secular minds that comment here? To the atheists that are surely spiritually stunted since they don’t believe in a spiritual God?
Would you say that muslims are ‘spiritually stunted’ since their indoctrination often results in violent actions?

As a matter of fact, I would say that about anyone who uses religion as an excuse to decimate a culture, kill, or move someone into a state of fear in order to control them. That kind of approach is spiritually stunted in my book. Religion is responsible for more suffering and murders in the world than any other cause. Whipping kids into an emotional frenzy and telling them they need to take over the world and be intolerant to anyone else is frightening.

“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim, or a Christian, or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence.” - Krishnamurti

Actually on September 22, 2006 at 08:17 am
Avatar for Actually

Oh no, not the God Warrior!

That woman is just a drama-whore. Christianity is only her convenient excuse for acting like an idiot and bullying her family and everyone else - even I don’t buy it.

Actually on September 22, 2006 at 08:22 am
Avatar for HG

Actually,

Religion is responsible for more suffering and murders in the world than any other cause

Come on.  Atheists are communist dictators.  They have had their share of atrocities.  Wake up.

Do you see why? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind.

Since the vast majority of people believe in God, calling one’s self an athiest is separating from far more than calling one’s self a Christian.

HG on September 22, 2006 at 08:22 am
Avatar for HG

Oh no, not the God Warrior!

I don’t see the resemblence.  I think SS might be kiddin’.

HG on September 22, 2006 at 08:25 am
Avatar for Actually

HG,
When did you get the idea that I think atheists are better? What I’m trying to get across is that NO ONE is better.

I would, however, be interested to know what atheists invaded third world countries, set up missionaries, destroyed cultures and language all in the name of NOT believing in God?

I am dying to know what atheists burned women at the stake? Or organized the Crusades? Even Hitler professed allegiance to non-sectarian Christianity, and we know what a peach he was to humanity.

Communism is a cheap buzzword that people like to throw in the air when they’ve run out of intelligent arguments. It’s actually not a bad idea, but I’ve yet to see it executed in the correct way.

Actually on September 22, 2006 at 08:29 am
Avatar for HG

Communism is a cheap buzzword that people like to throw in the air when they’ve run out of intelligent arguments.

Actually,

Remember Stalin?  How about China.  The committed horrific attrocities against their own.  Oh, ya.  Cambodia, Vietnam, and North Korea.  I’m pretty sure Russia alone was responible for approx. 126 million in the last century.  114 million for China.

I’m not defending any atrocities committed by anybody.  I’m just pointing out that religion isn’t to blame, people are.

HG on September 22, 2006 at 08:39 am
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