Rethinking Jesus Camp.

After the lengthy and rather heated discussion we had here on Say Anything about the movie Jesus Camp I thought I’d offer Julie Neidlinger of the Lone Prairie blog a chance to post her thoughts on the matter. Julie is a North Dakotan and a former attendee of the camp in question. – Rob
The reaction to the Jesus Camp movie has surprised me. I admit being naively taken aback at the opinions spit out by right and left, the Christian and non-Christian, the opinions coming from all these great thinkers and bloggers I regularly read.
I’ve seen blogs link back to my original detailed post on the documentary and get their facts incorrect in the time it took them to read what I wrote and write their own commentary. I’ve found a blog that can’t even get my name right and that information is readily available. The national print media has consistently spelled the name of the town the camp was held in incorrectly. These, and other little things, are like a small mirror reflecting the bigger problem of people trying to figure out what Jesus Camp means: misinterpretation, and blindly trusting that misinterpretation. I say that if a person can’t even get the facts correct, they are certainly a long way from understanding even the most basic concepts involved.
Most of the people talking about this have two sources on which to base everything they’ve said, the Jesus Camp movie trailer and the ABC News clip.
If people are making a judgment on what Jesus Camp promotes based on the ABC News clip or the short movie trailer, I wonder that they would be so willing to use so little evidence to make such grand judgments. Even if they’ve seen the movie, a film shot through a camera through the eyes of outsiders having passed it through the editing room, I would still ask them the same question. What do you really know about this? For those of you that complain about the distorted view the “liberal” media gives you, why are you willing to swallow this newsreel, this documentary, as the complete truth?
Maybe because it fits a stereotype?
Do you think this is something new and terrifying that now faces our country? It is not. This is not a new movement. This is merely the first many have heard of it. People like me, normal and non-compound-living and non-manifesto-writing people, grew up in it. We’re all over. North Dakota and a lot of other places have a rich Pentecostal history that you probably don’t know about, and yet you are still alive and America still exists.
The best example I can show people to offset many of the stereotypes I’m seeing is myself. When you say all these things about the parents that allow their children to attend, you’re saying it about my parents. When you wonder how these children can possibly grow up to be anything other than demented, you only have to look at me. When you assert these children can only grow up to be crazy or detrimental to the country, look at me and ask if that’s really a forgone conclusion you ought to be making. I’m not asking you to embrace it or send a donation check. I’m not asking you to turn a blind eye to Christians who have done stupid things. I’m simply asking you to think about it, knowing it is beyond your personal experience and knowing you might not really understand what you are seeing. Think about it without being lazy. Think instead of reacting. And try talking about it without using any of the following knee-jerk words: Nazi, Koresh, Cult, Child Abuse, Terrorist, Taliban, Crazy, Militant Islam, Jihad, Hezbollah, Jim Jones, Kool-Aid, Hitler, Brainwashing, Communist, Sick.
If you are concerned, then be concerned. Personally, I know that I am more concerned about those who are radical about not being radical about anything.

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  • http://northerngleaner.blogspot.com/ Gene Redlin

    My only regret is that both my kids didn’t get a chance to go to a single vision camp like Pastor Becky puts on.

    It is impossible for those outside to understand the importance of this to those who care about the future of the generations to come.

    I want my kids and grandkids to be soldiers of the Lord (Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching as to war, with the Cross of Jesus going on before).

    I will see this movie if it comes to our area. But I am not expectant of a fair treatment. I did hear an interview with the two young ladies who filmed this. They were impacted by the spirit of the time they spent with these kids at Devils Lake and Pastor Becky.

    There is so much more that God has for all of us, we just cut ourselves off and demand explanation and reason to understand it. In fact, God refuses to subject himself to human reason.

    I’m really OK with all that. I have not ever ever regretted going further with God as I have.

    I know this seems radical to you. But being a loyal dedicated American seems radical to those from France.

    Spiritually some of the commentors are from France spiritually.

  • Dave

    The best example I can show people to offset many of the stereotypes I’m seeing is myself.

    I’ll play. We have absolutely no proof whatsoever
    A) That you are “normal” or
    B) That, far more importantly, you ever even attended this camp.

    You’ve given us no reason to believe your story. Furthermore, you’ve exhorted us not to “use so little evidence to make such grand judgments.” I’m just taking your advice. All we have is one blog post from a “Julie” telling us that this camp is not bad. I’m not willing to “swallow” this as truth.

    Also:

    The best example I can show people to offset many of the stereotypes I’m seeing is myself.

    For someone so occupied with pointing out others’ grammatical errors, it’d be great if you could avoid making them.

  • stedav

    It is a disturbing fact that such camps are readily happening anywhere. If as you state it is not a new phenomenom, then I must ask the question why does the systematic abuse and exploitation of children in this way continue to be socially acceptable in modern pseudo-Christian American society. The institutional (church based) application of fear, intimidation, and overall pychological indoctrination of children into a dangerous and misguided, prejudicial ideal, was common of a nother 20th century youth movement in Nazi Germany, but yet society continues to condem (quite rightly) this particular movement. What is the difference in this case?

  • aNONOMISLY

    ..such a thing as “the Christian flag” does not exist.

  • aNONOMISLY

    please disregard that question, I see you’ve already answered it here:

    So here’s an effort to give an opinion I ought not be giving since I have not seen the movie and know there is nothing worse than a person who critiques, judges, or recommends a book or movie they haven’t read or seen themselves.

  • dilettante

    Oh, my.

    Julie, well said. I think that there are far too many people in this world ready and willing to give opinions on anything and everything, personal ignorance of subjects be damned.

    I’m about as far from Pentecostal as you’d get – godless atheist would be the term – but I grew up in a community with a lot of born-again types, and regardless of the uninformed but vocal opinions of a lot of the people around me here in New York City, I know they’re just regular folks. Although I don’t see the appeal of Jesus Camp, wouldn’t go see it, wouldn’t send my kids there (although if one expressed an interest, I would allow them to explore it) I’m an American…which means if it makes you happy to do so, well then, hey, have at it. Enjoy. I’d appreciate it if you don’t preach at me, but I can’t equate a minor annoyance like that with the deadly threat of jihad, so let’s get real here folks – Rosie’s an idiot. Christians (whether fundamentalist, standard-issue Protestant or Roman Catholic) aren’t a mortal threat and haven’t been for centuries.

    Can we focus, please?

  • haha!

    No, not a troll – just speaking the truth. George is a terrorist, he kills innocent people and claims to be a Christian. Come to think of it, he represents today’s version of Christianity quite accurately.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    I wouldn’t go so far to indict the German people.

  • aNONOMISLY

    here’s a somewhat apt anology:

    Calling the flag her kids pledge allegiance to “the Christian flag” is almost like two or three states adopting a unique flag and then pledging allegiance to it and calling it “the American flag.” Wouldn’t those states be co-opting the concept of a nation called the United States of America?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    I’ve always thought that the German population looked away from what was happening. Of course they were powerless to do anything about it anyway.

  • 2Hotel9

    So you are OK with these things being done to children in public schools, just not in private settings. Really? The Hitler Youth were not some hidden, secret operation. It was in the public school system and children were required to participate. Much like the proposals coming out of the just elected Administration. And you are OK with that, stedav? Really?

  • HG

    Julie:

    I have no problem with most terms you used in the video, as far as I can recall. It is what appears to be borderline finaticism. The believer’s service and obedience to God is nothing close to the commitment of Pakistani’s or any other ME people to Islam. The commitment to Christ is a personal priority reflecting a very real, personal relationship to God, not a finatical reaction. That coupled with the growing new evangelical efforts to redeem the culture, even by political means, and doctrine of the Kingdom, concerns me.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Julie: Two obvious questions spring to mind, perhaps you can clear them up.

    What does it mean to be a “soldier of God” and how are you supposed to lay down your life for Jesus.

    I imagine that the answers to these two questions will likely settle the matter.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    .such a thing as “the Christian flag” does not exist.
    aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 9:39 PM

    Roger that I’m 10-7 od

    Later!!!

  • Actually

    And that is precisely why I’m not a Christian anymore.

  • HG

    GOD HAS NO ENEMIES.

    Most christians wouldn’t agree.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    Actually says, And that is precisely why I’m not a Christian anymore.

    You’re not a Christian anymore because God has enemies?

    You’re better off sticking with your other reasons.

  • robert108

    aNON:

    I’ve said that is what Pastor Becky Fischer does.

    Give me one example of Pastor Becky Fischer strapping bombs on children, murdering, raping and dismembering, hiding behind innocent civilians to get them killed, and launching thousands of ball-bearing filled rockets into civilian areas. I know what you meant in the first place, and replied specifically to that.

  • Joe Miller

    Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used … bad news bears. To say servant or follower is one thing, but soldier implies the use of force, violence and changing people’s minds through aggression and a lack of tolerance.

    Not to pick on you Justin but this just emphasizes the ignorant, overly sensitive population of the world.

    If one studies the life of Christ, the saints, and the old testament you can find references to a stuggle for salvation and a fight to bring Christ’s message to the people. So I ask, is it really inappropriate to use the term soldier or warrior if the context is referring to a non-militant action.

    Next thing that will enter into the debate over the use of the Fighting Sioux name will be the name indicates violence and warfare and therefore it is inappropriate. What about when the Democrats run their commercials indicating that they are “Fighting” for us in Washington? Are they forcing their issues at gun point?

  • Joe Miller

    The blockquotes on my last comment got reversed. It should be like this.

    em>Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used … bad news bears. To say servant or follower is one thing, but soldier implies the use of force, violence and changing people’s minds through aggression and a lack of tolerance.

    Not to pick on you Justin but this just emphasizes the ignorant, overly sensitive population of the world.

    If one studies the life of Christ, the saints, and the old testament you can find references to a stuggle for salvation and a fight to bring Christ’s message to the people. So I ask, is it really inappropriate to use the term soldier or warrior if the context is referring to a non-militant action.

    Next thing that will enter into the debate over the use of the Fighting Sioux name will be the name indicates violence and warfare and therefore it is inappropriate. What about when the Democrats run their commercials indicating that they are “Fighting” for us in Washington? Are they forcing their issues at gun point?

  • aNONOMISLY

    I don’t see any problem with with devout Christians considering themselves soldiers marching at the order of God.

  • aNONOMISLY

    ACTUALLY:

    I went to a Christian school that used these methods and terrorized children into either believing their rhetoric or burning in hell.

    you there got to one of the main reason of my uneasiness with what Pastor Becky Fischer does.

    It isn’t as drastic as what Warren Jeff does, but it is still disturbing.

    This extremelly impressionable kids are under the premise they would burn in hell if they don’t submit to her teaching and views of Christianity, and I’m sure they’re probably given a very detailed account of what hell looks like too.

    ..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell. I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

    ..what’s an impressionable six years old to do under that circumstance?

  • robert108

    aNON: In fact, there were a lot of comments recommending legal action against her. That would qualify as suppression of free speech.

  • robert108

    Dave: Your usual support of what you regard as freedom and liberty don’t seem to be exhibited here. Why is that?

  • Actually

    You’re not a Christian anymore because God has enemies
    You’re better off sticking with your other reasons.

    No – read the post and reply again. I’m not a Christian because I think there is something inherently wrong with a philosophy that teaches that God has enemies. God has no enemies. God created all – therefore, there is nothing outside of God. Fighting, warfare, anger, rage – these are terms that separate a person from God’s love. Whipping children into an emotional frenzy and telling them they’re “being filled with the Holy Spirit” and that they need to “fight for Jesus” is twisted and stepping away from Christ’s message.

  • docdave

    Wow, I’ve come late into this discussions but what comes to mind is that in this secular society of ours, many will jump on anything that will make Christians look bad.

    As far as your question, whistler, What does it mean to be a “soldier of God” and how are you supposed to lay down your life for Jesus, I can’t add much to Julie and Joe Millers excellent comments. I will only say that however zealous the Christians, it is highly unlikely that they will be a threat to anyone since devote followers of Christ believe in love not violence.

  • Bat One

    Most Christians wouldn’t agree, either.

  • HG

    R108,

    We could all glob on to the historical and current oppresion of athiests. Russia and China to start with. We need to have a separation of athiests and state. Athiests have a wonderful history of atrocities.

  • Actually

    God has no enemies, but humans do, especially when they set out to discover and live by the truth.

    “Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.” – Albert Einstein

    Humans that think they have enemies in people who do not believe what they believe create hell – God doesn’t need to send anyone to it.

  • haha!

    If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on. Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas? That’s just for starters.

    Try George W. Bush. That’s one for you.

  • aNONOMISLY

    see, HG is one of those:

    the atmosphere and some of the behavior in the film is bazaar IMOP.

  • aNONOMISLY

    ..I personally don’t see anything wrong with it, except with those that believe in using the Army comprised by said soldiers to impose the will of God.

  • aNONOMISLY

    ROB, some of us critisizing Pastor Becky Fischer and her camp aren’t advocating for her freedom of speech to be suppressed.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    These are spiritually stunted, sick people. It’s very sad to me to see kids dragged into this kind of diseased mindset
    Actually on September 21, 2006 at 6:30 PM

    I agree!!

    Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used … bad news bears.
    Justin Jones on September 21, 2006 at 4:55 PM

    I agree!!

    I’ll play. We have absolutely no proof whatsoever A) That you are “normal” or B) That, far more importantly, you ever even attended this camp.

    You’ve given us no reason to believe your story. Furthermore, you’ve exhorted us not to “use so little evidence to make such grand judgments.” I’m just taking your advice. All we have is one blog post from a “Julie” telling us that this camp is not bad. I’m not willing to “swallow” this as truth.
    Dave on September 21, 2006 at 5:13 PM

    Agreed!!!

    Sorry Julie. I just don’t buy it. You are definitely not a neutral objective observer and are to close to the forrest to see the trees..

  • Cliveblog

    Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used … bad news bears.

    Kind of like the Salvation Army? We know how dangerous they are.

  • Actually

    I can also use myself as an example. I went to a Christian school that used these methods and terrorized children into either believing their rhetoric or burning in hell. It was not a nice way to grow up. I’ll have to see the film to make a full judgement, but I can tell you that it’s hard to be open-minded towards a set of people screaming about war and enemies, especially ones that would dare bring Jesus, a bringer of peace, into it. GOD HAS NO ENEMIES. These are spiritually stunted, sick people. It’s very sad to me to see kids dragged into this kind of diseased mindset, but if I survived it with a modicum of global perspective and common sense about the evils of people who use religion as an excuse to “go to war”, maybe they will too.

  • aNONOMISLY

    julie, have you seen the documentary?

    ..Becky Fischer, is an enthusiastic endorser of it so I guess it must be true to what she does.

  • robert108

    This is Hell, unless we transform it into Heaven.

  • Actually

    HG,
    I’m not saying that was the only thing to make me walk off that particular path – though I still believe it was wrong for anyone to tell me that lie to begin with.

    It’s great that your sis was able to reconcile your prank with reality and find happiness in her faith.

  • aNONOMISLY

    So what, anon. Please explain to me how what one person does is representative of the mainstream.

    I don’t think Pastor Becky Fischer is representative of ‘mainstream’ Christian believes.

    And just because someone says that they are Christian doesn’t necessarily make them one.

    are you suggesting Pastor Becky Fischer is not a Christian?

  • HG

    I was so worked up that if I came home and the house was too quiet, I would become panicked that everyone had been raptured and I was left behind.

    Actually,

    Ya, been there done that. I also used to hide from my sister to make her think she was left.
    One time on the way home from school, I through my bike and books down in the middle of the dirt road and hid in the brush. My sister came along and freaked out. I quickly jumped out to calm her down. It use to be funny. She has no problem with it today now that her faith is in what she knows to be truth.

  • robert108

    aNON:

    ..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell. I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

    I resent your attempt to equate Christians with real terrorists with a long record of actually terrorizing, raping, mutilating and killing people in the name of their faith. There is no real comparison. Shame on you!

    If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on. Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas? That’s just for starters.

  • robert108

    haha:

    Try George W. Bush. That’s one for you.

    The US doesn’t have to use terrorist tactics, since we have the military and economic strength to win on our own. Terrorists do what they do to prevail against a superior enemy by trying to make them lose heart and run away. You are aiding the terrorists with your lies.

  • robert108

    aNON: So, it’s a semantic argument, then. It’s “a” Christian flag, rather than “the” Christian flag; is that your point? It’s still not “co-opting” anything, as no one “owns” Christianity. You don’t understand Protestantism, I guess. It’s decentralized; nobody owns it, and everybody gets to do their own thing. It’s a lot like what we do here in the US. That’s the point. Becky has just as much right to call her flag “the Christian flag” as anyone else does. It’s not monarchial, no matter how hard you try to pigeonhole it that way. Sorry.

  • aNONOMISLY

    I said:

    you there got to one of the main reason of my uneasiness with what Pastor Becky Fischer does.
    It isn’t as drastic as what Warren Jeff does, but it is still disturbing.

    This extremelly impressionable kids are under the premise they would burn in hell if they don’t submit to her teaching and views of Christianity, and I’m sure they’re probably given a very detailed account of what hell looks like too.

    ..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell. I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

    ..what’s an impressionable six years old to do under that circumstance?

    ROB responds:
    I resent your attempt to equate Christians with real terrorists with a long record of actually terrorizing, raping, mutilating and killing people in the name of their faith. There is no real comparison. Shame on you!
    If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on. Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas? That’s just for starters.

    Is that what you feel about what Pastor Becky Fischer has done?

    ..I haven’t say that is what Christians in general do, I’ve said that is what Pastor Becky Fischer does. I too resent what she is doing, that’s exactly what my post was about!! My post wasn’t about what your typical Christian does. It was specifically about what Becky Fischer doesm why I resent it and am disturbed by it. judging from you very emotional responce, you seem to vehemently resent what Pastor Becky Fischer does too?

  • aNONOMISLY

    ROB, even I was fool into believing that what Pastor Becky Fischer kids were “pledging allegiance” to and calling “THE Christian flag” was in fact as they said, the Chistian flag. It is not “the Christian flag”.

  • HG

    We could all glob on to the historical and current oppresion of athiests

    R108,

    ‘of’ should have been ‘by’

  • aNONOMISLY

    THE following question just popped into my head:

    The kids in Pastor Becky Fischer’s camp “pledge alligiance” to the “Christian flag”

    Is there such a thing as “The Christian flag”?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Why don’t they?

    Umm, is it, well, because we ah, we are the only country that can be counted on doing the right thing?

  • aNONOMISLY

    people, ignore haha! ..he seems to be a troll and only seeking to incite.

  • Al Gore

    So what, anon. Please explain to me how what one person does is representative of the mainstream. And just because someone says that they are Christian doesn’t necessarily make them one.

  • aNONOMISLY

    ROB is right:

    The Christian Flag (MADE IN THE USA!)

  • HG

    And that is precisely why I’m not a Christian anymore.

    It’s sad when people abandon their faith because of the behavior of some bad apples. But, that is your choice to make. My curiosity is peaked as to what you believed in the first place.

    I grew up in ‘independent fundamental baptist’ churches. The scare tactics were used too. I knew what I believed was true but what some were doing wasn’t consistant with truth. I didn’t abandon my faith, but I did abandon manipulative christians bent on their own definition of successful ministry.

  • HG

    Julie:

    The explanations you offer are sufficient. They snuff out the over-reaction of some. However, the atmosphere and some of the behavior in the film is bazaar IMOP.

  • aNONOMISLY

    I just checked. I couldn’t find the chapter and verse in the Bible that deals with the “FLAG” stuff.
    Can you help me out with this?

    I don’t think there is, that’s why I pointed out that a good argument can be made that Pastor Becky Fischer and other using and pledging allegiance to what they reffer to as “THE Christian flag” are merely co-opting Christianity.

  • Al Gore

    These are spiritually stunted, sick people.
    As compared to what? The ‘great’ enlighteded secular minds that comment here? To the atheists that are surely spiritually stunted since they don’t believe in a spiritual God?
    Would you say that muslims are ‘spiritually stunted’ since their indoctrination often results in violent actions?

  • aNONOMISLY

    aNON: So, it’s a semantic argument, then. It’s “a” Christian flag, rather than “the” Christian flag; is that your point? It’s still not “co-opting” anything, as no one “owns” Christianity. You don’t understand Protestantism, I guess. It’s decentralized; nobody owns it, and everybody gets to do their own thing. It’s a lot like what we do here in the US. That’s the point. Becky has just as much right to call her flag “the Christian flag” as anyone else does. It’s not monarchial, no matter how hard you try to pigeonhole it that way. Sorry.

    IT’S more than just semantic, they are attibuting something to Chistianity that is not

    ..that being said, saying “I pledge allegiance to THIS Christian flag ..” would be much more appropriate, given the facts.

  • aNONOMISLY

    Wrong, wrong, wrong, with regard to the so-called Christian flag It has so far been adopted by very few churches in Europe. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and other non-Protestant branches of Christianity do not generally use the flag. The flag associated with the Catholics is the Vatican flag (see here) which is the flag of a valid soveriegn entity, the Vatican City

    THE flag Pastor Becky Fischer’s kids camp pledge allegeance to is the one discribed on the wikipedia link I provided.

    it’s in the following clip:
    ..watch intently

  • Al Gore

    Wrong, wrong, wrong, with regard to the so-called Christian flag It has so far been adopted by very few churches in Europe. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and other non-Protestant branches of Christianity do not generally use the flag. The flag associated with the Catholics is the Vatican flag (see here) which is the flag of a valid soveriegn entity, the Vatican City

  • robert108

    aNON:

    I don’t think there is, that’s why I pointed out that a good argument can be made that Pastor Becky Fischer and other using and pledging allegiance to what they reffer to as “THE Christian flag” are merely co-opting Christianity.

    Your conclusion says more about you and your agenda than about Becky Fischer. “Judge ye not, that ye be judged, and whatsoever measure ye mete, it shall be meted out unto you.” Or, if you prefer: “For every action there is a reaction, equal in force and opposite in direction.”

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    To Anon And Robert on the C. Flag and the pledge:

    Based on several sections in the policy on what Wikipedia is not, it is generally agreed that topics in most areas must exceed a certain threshhold of notability and/or importance in order to have an article in Wikipedia.

    Pledge to the Christian flag
    From Wikipedia,
    To meet Wikipedia’s quality standards and make it more accessible to a general audience, this article may require cleanup.
    This article provides insufficient context
    This article lacks information on the importance of the subject matter.

    In other words; no one puts much credence into the idea of a “christian” pledge of allegiance to a chriatian flag before BF’s camp.
    That’s why it’s not found in wikipedia.

    It’s nonsense.From a religious perspective, Allegiance is pledged to God not to flags.

    Also, as algore points out, there are many “christian” flags (here) but they are more akin to “coats of arms” than they are to flags that represent nations.

    How many people have pledged allegiance to a family crest?

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Is there such a thing as “The Christian flag”?
    aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 7:54 PM

    Good point and hell no there isn’t!

  • aNONOMISLY

    tHERE also a pledge to it, which is base on our own pledge of allegiance, ..

    Here it is:

    I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe.

  • aNONOMISY

    bezu, what I wanted to know was if more Christians than just Pastor Becky Fischer’s kids use the Christian flag. The link I provided comfirms what rob said, ..

    many protestant around the world use the Christian flag:

    The “Christian flag” is a flag designed to represent all of Christianity, but flown mainly by Protestant churches in North America, Africa, and Latin America. The flag has a white field, with a red Latin cross inside a blue canton.
    ..

    Since the Christian flag was inspired by the flag of the United States, it takes its colors and overall design from the American flag. However, elements of the flag represent Christian concepts.

    The flag’s most conspicuous symbol is the Christian cross, the most universal symbol for Christianity. The red color represents the blood of Jesus and brings to mind his crucifixion. Christians believe that Jesus’ death and resurrection is the means God uses to save believers from their sins. The cross and blood have been used since earliest Christianity to symbolize salvation through Jesus; in the words of the Apostle Paul, “Through [Jesus] God reconciles himself to all things… making peace by the blood of the cross” (Colossians 1:20).

    The white field draws on symbolism throughout the Bible equating white clothes with purity and forgiveness. People who have been “washed white as snow” in the Bible have been cleansed from their sins (Isaiah 1:18).

    The symbolism behind the blue canton is uncertain. It has been interpreted to represent Heaven, truth, or the Christian ritual of Baptism in water. Most likely it is simply a carry-over from the American flag.

    Since the flag is not tied to any specific denomination or church institution, it represents Christian ecumenism, the unity of all Christians despite historical, cultural, and dogmatic differences. Its simplicity makes it easily copied by any community of Christians.

    The canton of this flag transgresses one of the traditional rules of flag design, which states that two colors (other than white or yellow) have to be separated by a metal (silver = white, or gold = yellow). The white field would also be advised against in conventional vexillology as it is easily mistaken for the white flag of surrender.

    ..
    The flag was first accepted by the Mainline Protestant denominations in the United States, and by the 1940s many institutions had described policies for displaying it inside churches. During World War II the flag was flown along with the U.S. flag in a number of Lutheran churches, many of them with German backgrounds, who wanted to show their solidarity with the United States during the war with Germany.

    The Christian flag spread outside North America with Protestant missionaries. It can be seen today in or outside many Protestant churches throughout the world, particularly in Latin America and Africa. It has so far been adopted by very few churches in Europe. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and other non-Protestant branches of Christianity do not generally use the flag.

    Some American churches practice the recitation of a “pledge of allegiance” or “affirmation of loyalty” to the Christian flag, based on the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag. One version of this pledge of allegiance runs, “I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior, for whose kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe.” The earliest version of this pledge was, “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the Savior for whose kingdom it stands; one brotherhood uniting all mankind in service and love.” [1]

    There is some disagreement among American Christians over whether the U.S. flag or the Christian flag should be given prominence when both are displayed in a church or elsewhere.

    In 2003, a new “U.S. Christian Flag”, depicting a bald eagle clutching a blood-stained cross and quoting verses 4 and 14 from Matthew 24 (“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world…and then shall the end come”), was designed by a Maryland artist who regarded Overton’s flag as “crisp and dignified, but politely cold.” It has gained favor among some conservative American evangelicals.

    But I guess you can argue the Protestant churches that use such flag are co-opting Christianity by calling it “the Christian flag.” ..you also raise a very interesting point about pledging allegiance to it as Pastor Becky Fischer has the kids in her Jesus Camp do.

  • aNONOMISLY

    I said:

    you there got to one of the main reason of my uneasiness with what

    Pastor Becky Fischer

    does.

    It isn’t as drastic as what Warren Jeff does, but it is still disturbing.

    This extremelly impressionable kids are under the premise they would burn in hell if they don’t submit to her teaching and views of Christianity, and I’m sure they’re probably given a very detailed account of what hell looks like too.

    ..its learn fully what I’m teaching you, as the kids in the extremist Madrassas of Pakistan do, or you might just burn in hell. I’ve explained to you what hell looks like, what’s your choice.

    ..what’s an impressionable six years old to do under that circumstance?

    I resent your attempt to equate Christians with real terrorists with a long record of actually terrorizing, raping, mutilating and killing people in the name of their faith. There is no real comparison. Shame on you!

    If you can find anyone from a Christian school who has a record of doing anything like what the terrorists do every day, bring it on. Where are the Christian sleeper cells, the Christian suicide bombers; where are the thousands of rockets loaded with ball bearing warheads shot into civilian areas? That’s just for starters.

    I haven’t say that is what Christians in general do, I’ve said that is what Pastor Becky Fischer does. I too resent what she is doing, that’s exactly what my post was about!! My post wasn’t about what your typical Christian does. It was specifically about what Becky Fischer doesm why I resent it and am disturbed by it. judging from you very emotional responce, you seem to vehemently resent what Pastor Becky Fischer does too?

  • Al Gore

    So what, anon. Please explain to me how what one person does is representative of the mainstream. And just because someone says that they are Christian doesn’t necessarily make them one.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    are you suggesting Pastor Becky Fischer is not a Christian?
    aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 8:37 PM

    Ah, personally, Iwould never just suggest it.

    I’ll state it straight out. She’s some sort of Frankenstein.

  • aNONOMISLY

    I both admire and appreciate a straight shooter:

    Ah, personally, Iwould never just suggest it.

    I’ll state it straight out. She’s some sort of Frankenstein.

    If only all moderate Muslims were as DocDave is a Christian ..

  • http://www.julieneidlinger.com/ Julie

    To Dave and Bezu Fache and those who question me as a source, I would answer that if you think you only have one blog post from which I am asking you to base your opinion on, and that I am being hypocritical in doing so, all you need to do is move your mouse so that the cursor is over the link, and click the left button on the mouse. This will take you back to my blog which has a very long comments section for the post in question. My entire website also has an about section, a blog archives section, an art gallery, an FAQ section, a method for you to contact me, a resume, and numerous other means of measuring my truthiness.

    I mean seriously. Come on.

  • aNONOMISLY

    if all moderate Muslim were as DodDave is a Christian, the world would be a much better place.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    I mean seriously. Come on.
    Julie on September 21, 2006 at 9:02 PM

    Julie,
    I don’t question your sincerity or your belief in the bona fide veracity of your personal experiences.
    But I do believe that since you have been so drastically immersed in this eccentric religious philosophy for your entire life, it has to have made you somewhat biased in favor of it and because of this, could perhaps have made you a bit myopic.

    I can only conclude then that it would be impossible for you to be objective about the subject matter.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    aNONOMISY

    many protestant around the world use the Christian flag:

    Anon

    I just checked. I couldn’t find the chapter and verse in the Bible that deals with the “FLAG” stuff.
    Can you help me out with this?

  • HG

    Fundamental Christianity, then is as different from fundamental Islam as night is to day. There is no comparison whatsoever. You are obviously triggered by the word “fundamental” and your thinking stops as soon as your fear of it is activated. There is no central authority in Protestant Christianity. It is as diverse as the USA itself. Individual independence.

    r108: Well said.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Of course! How silly of me!
    Dave on September 21, 2006 at 9:32 PM

    3 for 3–batting a thousand

  • Dave

    Julie writes:

    To Dave and Bezu Fache and those who question me as a source, I would answer that if you think you only have one blog post from which I am asking you to base your opinion on, and that I am being hypocritical in doing so, all you need to do is move your mouse so that the cursor is over the link, and click the left button on the mouse. This will take you back to my blog which has a very long comments section for the post in question. My entire website also has an about section, a blog archives section, an art gallery, an FAQ section, a method for you to contact me, a resume, and numerous other means of measuring my truthiness.

    …thus proving that you did indeed go to the camp when you were younger, that it was not as extreme as portrayed in the documentary film, that you did not emerge from it harmed in any way, that your experience was typical from that of others’, and that the camp hasn’t changed in the 10-30 years since you last went to it.

    Of course! How silly of me!

  • aNONOMISLY

    ROB, I don’t think its appropriate to reffer to the flag they pledge allegiance to as “THE Christian flag.” It suggests that what they are doing is mainstream Christian, when in fact it is not.

    ..the flag that Pastor Becky Fischer kids “pledge allegiance” to and which they call “THE Christian flag” isn’t really “THE Chistian flag,” that is why I say that some can well argue she’s co-opting Christianity in that regard.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Pastor Becky Fischer and other using and pledging allegiance to what they reffer to as “THE Christian flag” are merely co-opting Christianity.
    aNONOMISLY on September 21, 2006 at 9:05 PM

    Definitely agree!!

  • robert108

    Bezu: Actually, there is; at least in some of the Protestant sects.

  • robert108

    Bezu:

    I can only conclude then that it would be impossible for you to be objective about the subject matter.

    Is she out bombing unbelievers, murdering those who disagree with her, rioting over some imagined slight by a public official? Is she promising to behead anyone who doesn’t follow her creed?

  • Actually

    R108, yeah, you sure pegged me there. Way to go. *rolls eyes*

    You can twist it any way you want and call me unpatriotic and anti-US, that’s very “in” to do when someone has a dissenting opinion, (and really weakens your position, by the way). Yes, America has a first response position. We don’t LISTEN to the UN…if we did, we’d never been in this complete mess in Iraq in the first place. If you really believe that we’re over there fighting “terrorism”, it’s you that’s living in a fantasyland. A dangerous, destructive, and incredibly ignorant one. I’m not saying the UN doesn’t have a responsibility. What I’m trying to point out is that the US is so quick to police the rest of the world and we completely ignore a region where human suffering is OBVIOUS and HAPPENING RIGHT NOW? Please. The US consumes a quarter of the world’s resources and is its single biggest destructor. You’re damn right we have a bigger responsibility to step in where it’s necessary…and step out where it’s not.

    And yeah, I do get it. You’ve reminded me why I shouldn’t argue with idiots – they wear me down and beat me with experience. Feel free to take the last word here, it’s all yours. I wonder how confident you’ll be when peak oil hits and you’re still crowing about the terrorists – or maybe the television will be telling you something different by then.

  • robert108

    aNON: Like I said, a semantic argument from someone who obviously doesn’t understand the nature of Protestant Christianity. It’s decentralized, and so no one “owns” it. If I want to start my own church and create a flag to salute, I have as much authority to call it the Christian flag as anyone else. The Protestant Reformation wasn’t about exchanging one Pope for another one; it was returning Christianity to its roots: individual enlightenment, which was the real message of Jesus Christ. Under Judaism, the best you could do was follow the Law, and how well you did it was judged by the Rabbis and the Elders. Jesus Christ said that we each have a personal relationship with God, and that our Salvation was between each person and God. Roman Catholicism morphed that into a monarchial form, with the Pope at the top, and layers of Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops and all the rest underneath. Martin Luther changed all that, and returned to Christianity as a personal religion. Fundamental Christianity, then is as different from fundamental Islam as night is to day. There is no comparison whatsoever. You are obviously triggered by the word “fundamental” and your thinking stops as soon as your fear of it is activated. There is no central authority in Protestant Christianity. It is as diverse as the USA itself. Individual independence.

  • HG

    Calling the flag her kids pledge allegiance to “the Christian flag”

    The christian flag has been around for as long as I can remember. They pledge went something like this:

    I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag,
    and to the Savior, for whose Kingdom it stands.
    One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again,
    with life and liberty for all who believe.

    The christian flag was pledged after the American flag. Ready for this? Lastly we had a Bible pledge as well. That pledge went:

    I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God’s holy word.
    I will make it a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. I will hide God’s word in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

    That was it. No harm done there.

  • lisa

    Diletant,You should read the Christian history before you talk.You say christians have not been a threat for CENTUREIS??.hOW LONG DO YOU CALL A CENTUARY LEY ALONE CENTUAREIS?

    Taking one life is like taking 10 lives, cause to the victim`s family ,YOU have taken their lives too.Less than a 100 yrs ago Christian fundamentalists were blowing up fellow BLACK churches in the STATES,let alone HANGING and BURNING them too.Not to forget the Genocide of the NATIVE Americans which you people tennd to shift aside as it never happend, or when it is brought up you Get angry and say “why bring long dead people back,what is gone is gone”. Then you start to bring up old habites and laws from Islamic pasts and what Mohammed said and did,and he has been dead over 1500 yrs ago.

    Hitler was a Christian terrorist whom LESS than a centuary ago nearly wiped out Jews because of his RELIGIOUS idiology.Or that don`t count?

  • aNONOMISLY

    ..Hitler could not have done what he did, if it wasn’t for the tacit and intacit support he received from the German people at the time.

  • robert108

    God has no enemies, but humans do, especially when they set out to discover and live by the truth.

  • aNONOMISLY

    This guy’s got the right idea

    what pastor did is to be admired, unlike what Becky Fischer doe.

  • robert108

    This woman didn’t want a TV crew in her house; what does this have to do with the Jesus Camp? The TV crew certainly got some footage with which to bash Christianity; that was probably their purpose in the first place.

    Is YouTube balanced on this subject, or do they have an agenda?

    This is smear of the first order.

  • robert108

    Bezu:

    So you’ve heard of deductive reasoning based on overwhelming circumstantial evedence right?

    Actually, that would be inductive reasoning, not deductive. You don’t have enough facts to deduce your conclusion, so you go on what you consider to be “weight of evidence”, but you only have a fraction of all the evidence, and you draw conclusions from that, plus your imagination.

    Your own words, at 8:31PM:

    It’s not a stretch at all to imagine many of the Jesus camp participants growing up to be just like the lady in Student Student’s video clip

    “Imagine” is pretty close to “wild guess”, I think. If something is real and true, imagining isn’t necessary, is it?

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Robert

    Deductive reasoning is reasoning in which the conclusion is reached from previously known facts.
    Circumstantial evidence is a fact that can be used to infer another fact.

    If I had said “all” Christians are like the folks at the Jesus Camp or even “all” participants from the Jesus Camp “will” turn out like the crazy Jesus lady in the video, then that would have been inductive reasoning; but I didn’t say that Robert, did I?

    But I have said repeatedly that the Jesus camp people and the crazy Jesus lady are “NOT” Christians.

    That blows your contention, that I have anti-Christian biases, right out of the water.

    If I tell you I’m Hungarian but don’t speak the language, don’t know where the country is on the map, and have no Hungarian relatives or ancestors, are you going to believe me.

    Ask yourself; what are the previously know facts?

    Can one draw a conclusion from the facts that are known?

    The answer is a definitive yes.

    Also, to not know every fact does not mean one can’t know enough facts and not knowing “ALL” the facts certainly does not prevent one from deducing a conclusion.

    Fcats:
    The people at the Jesus Camp are nuts!
    The crazy Jesus lady in the video is nuts!!

    It’s reasonable to conclude that both batches of bread came from the same bakery.

    The crap that Becky Fischer is indoctrinating these kids with is completely unrelated to anything that Jesus taught.

    The precepts expressed by both Becky Fischer and the crazy Jesus lady are totally unrelated to Jesus and can not be found anywhere in his taechings.

    If you think differently, I challenge you to find them and post them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Their manners, policies, and standards are derived from some crazy amalgamation of aberrant psychology, mind-control, politics,opportunism, pseudo- philosophy, over dramatization, emotionalism, and megalomania.

    But it ain’t Christianity!!!!!!

    These are facts.

    So, “it’s not hard to imagine (deduce) that both grew up being taught the same ridiculous BS.

    For some reason, you have put a considerable amount of words in my mouth and claimed that I made assertions that I didn’t make and you drew conclusions for me that I myself didn’t draw.

    As you so often like to point out to others, this is a straw man argument. i.e.

    Present a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent’s actual position has been refuted.

    This is very uncharacteristic of you Robert and I can only attribute it to the possibility that you may be somewhat blinded by overzealous attachment to any and all things that “Claim” to be Christian;as if the very utterance of the word
    “Christianity” somehow should invoke unquestioning awe and respect.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    It’s a possibility that the following words, that have been (perhaps wrongly) attributed to the guy (I think)who is the founder of Christianity, might have some bearing on this discussion.

    “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”

    (But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.

    When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others.

    Do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

    “When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

    But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret.

    And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

    “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy… If you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others?”

    “The hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering worship to God”

    Maybe I’m wrong!
    maybe these teachings are in fact unrelated to the discussion.

  • aNONOMISLY

    ROB, YouTube having an agenda because of this video? ..I don’t follow you.

    plus, I think its a fake. ..a prank if you will, she’s acting.

  • Dave

    “If you believe in Jesus you can stay here.”

    LOL. Nice clip Bezu.

  • student student

    robert108: and we all know how “real” she is to bother being on the show. If I were her, I wouldn’t be representing my congregation like that on tv.

  • aNONOMISLY

    Bezu, do you consider yourself a Christian?

  • robert108

    aNON:

    ..Hitler could not have done what he did, if it wasn’t for the tacit and intacit support he received from the German people at the time.

    What part of “absolute dictator” don’t you understand?

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    it’s a wild guess on your part,
    Robert108

    Robert
    You’re a man of logic right?
    So you’ve heard of deductive reasoning based on overwhelming circumstantial evedence right?

    So it’s anything “BUT” a guess.

    put me in your home with a video camera and an agenda, and I would have you putting out any message I wanted to
    robert108

    I think you know that this is complete bullshit!
    You’re starting to sound like the liberals that you usually critisize.

  • robert108

    Calling the flag her kids pledge allegiance to “the Christian flag” is almost like two or three states adopting a unique flag and then pledging allegiance to it and calling it “the American flag.” Wouldn’t those states be co-opting the concept of a nation called the United States of America?

    Well, there’s that “Constitution” thing, and then there’s the Federal Government…
    Good point, though. Actually, Christianity is less centralized than is the USA. Minor correction in what I wrote before. It’s more like our economic system, without the Federal Reserve.

  • docdave

    Has anyone heard of the ‘Apostles Creed’? If there is something that can be called a Christian pledge, that is it. Catholics say the creed during every Sunday service. The American flag is also prominent in Catholic facilities and saying the American pledge is not uncommon. Unlike the muslims, respect for nation does have a place in Christian lives.

  • student student

    Well, I found this interesting when viewing reviews of the movie: this pastor was actually on trading spouses. The way she is portrayed in Trading Spouses, and the way she is Portrayed in her own ‘Jesus Camp’ film put together are hideous. Here, she rips up the other family’s check and figures that ‘God’ wants her to spend her check on getting gastric bypass surgery. Check it out.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6B9GlayKS_0&mode=related&search=

  • Cindy

    Bezu

    This discussion about Becky Fischer’s Camp has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus’teaching or what the bilble says.

    The two are completely unrealted and you’re stupid to keep bringing them up.

    Robert is right. You must be anti-christian.

  • Dave

    He attacked the Jews because of his political ideology, not because he was waging a religious crusade against them.

    And however did he get the Germans to go along with him? What could possibly unite an entire people in Jew-hatred?

  • robert108

    ss: And we all know how “real” those “reality” shows are…

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God’s holy word.
    I will make it a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. I will hide God’s word in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

    That was it. No harm done there.
    HG on September 21, 2006 at 11:37 PM

    I think the following words might be from some obscure Christian book but I’m not sure. They do seem oddly applicable reagrding this issue.

    41 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint but you neglect justice and the love of God.

    43″Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.

    46And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

    52″Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

    53When Jesus left there, the

    Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely

    and to besiege him with questions, 54waiting to catch him in something he might say.

  • robert108

    Bezu: Nice try, but cite somewhere that I have taken non-Christians to task as a group. You conflate a troubled woman who was probably goaded into exploding, then filmed when she wanted her tormentors out of her house, with Jesus Camp, but are unable to connect the two in any way, except for your own beliefs about Christianity and those who adhere to it. You then state that: “…the question of “evidence” of jesus camp affiliation is not relevant at all to the discussion.”

    It certainly is if you are arguing that there is any relationship between the two at all.

    Before I made any judgment about the worth of either the video of that poor woman or of Jesus Camp, I would want to see all the footage, including what got edited out. It might surprise you, if you really want the truth.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Spiritually some of the commentors are from France spiritually.
    Gene Redlin on September 21, 2006 at 10:33 PM

    OUCH geno!

    Um bala shala ba sante cumduala basante……

    Whoops..Sorry for that digression. I was just overcome by the holy spirit and had to speak in toungues for a second.

    Is she out bombing unbelievers, murdering those who disagree with her, rioting over some imagined slight by a public official? Is she promising to behead anyone who doesn’t follow her creed?
    robert108 on September 21, 2006 at 10:40 PM

    Robert, did anybody make that assertion; or implication.

    I don’t belive Fischer is even remotely similar to a terrorist.
    I believe she’s a headline grabbing opportunistic con artist who’s out to make a buck off religion by destroying young minds with sensationalized emotional nonsense that has nothing to do with Christianity.

    Her camp presentation is more akin to an Amway meeting than it is to a religious retreat.
    Or maybe the Stepford Wives would be more comparable.

    She “is” brainwashing a captive audience of defenseless young children into believing a very narrow set of intolerant principles.

    This can’t be good for them; whether they grow up to be violent or not.

    Most of them will spend many future years having to “deprogram” themselves so they can reallign themselves with normal religious values.

    Does she have a right to do this? Hmmm…. she definitely has the right NOT to be prohibited by the government from doing it.

    Spiritually speaking (Gene)Does anyone really have a (spiritual)”right” to indoctrinate innocent kids with such extremist values?

  • aNONOMISLY

    it is wrong o ascribe to Chistianity what Hitler did, just as it is wrong to ascibe it to the scientific concept of Evolution

    I am dying to know what atheists burned women at the stake? Or organized the Crusades? Even Hitler professed allegiance to non-sectarian Christianity, and we know what a peach he was to humanity.


    Hitler’s religious believe

  • Actually

    These are spiritually stunted, sick people.
    As compared to what? The ‘great’ enlighteded secular minds that comment here? To the atheists that are surely spiritually stunted since they don’t believe in a spiritual God?
    Would you say that muslims are ‘spiritually stunted’ since their indoctrination often results in violent actions?

    As a matter of fact, I would say that about anyone who uses religion as an excuse to decimate a culture, kill, or move someone into a state of fear in order to control them. That kind of approach is spiritually stunted in my book. Religion is responsible for more suffering and murders in the world than any other cause. Whipping kids into an emotional frenzy and telling them they need to take over the world and be intolerant to anyone else is frightening.

    “When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim, or a Christian, or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence.” – Krishnamurti

  • http://www.willisms.com/ Ken McCracken

    Hitler was a Christian terrorist whom LESS than a centuary ago nearly wiped out Jews because of his RELIGIOUS idiology.Or that don`t count?

    Man, are you ignorant. Hitler was not a ‘christian’ – among his first victims put into concentration camps were Catholic clergymen. He attacked the Jews because of his political ideology, not because he was waging a religious crusade against them.

    So yeah, that doesn’t count.

    As for burning black churches and the genocide against native Americans, that wasn’t done in the name of Christianity. It was cruel, it was immoral and it was wrong, but it wasn’t done for religious reasons.

    Killing 3,000 Americans on 9/11 was in fact done in the name of Islam, however.

    Stop trying to play this little ‘moral equivalence’ game, Lisa. You are losing badly, are convincing no one, and make yourself look pretty silly.

  • Actually

    Oh no, not the God Warrior!

    That woman is just a drama-whore. Christianity is only her convenient excuse for acting like an idiot and bullying her family and everyone else – even I don’t buy it.

  • HG

    I would, however, be interested to know what atheists invaded third world countries, set up missionaries, destroyed cultures and language all in the name of NOT believing in God?

    None, you’re correct. Athiest Commi’s kill people for believing in God.

  • robert108

    Leaving out the fact that we don’t have any idea what happened in that house before the cameras were turned on, and what footage was edited out, do you have any evidence at all that this woman had anything to do with the Jesus Camp? Otherwise, you are smearing Jesus Camp with non-relevant material, to serve your anti-Christian fear agenda.

  • Actually

    At what age would you like to know what my beliefs were?

    As a small child, I remembered being an old man. It was as plain as day. I mentioned it to my mom one day – that you die and start over again – and she hastily corrected me. I believed her.

    I believed fervently in what I was taught at school until about the age of 12. I was so worked up that if I came home and the house was too quiet, I would become panicked that everyone had been raptured and I was left behind. I realize now that having that fear ingrained into my psyche was a tool for control.

    One day, I was listening to a sermon, and I just got this message: “There’s nothing to fear. There never was.” I realized that God does not create to punish and destroy. Then I was pissed off for the lies I had been told and claiemd that I didn’t believe in God at all. This was a period of rebellion in my adolescence and was mostly to freak my parents out. It didn’t last.

    My faith in God is now stronger than ever. It has simply evolved to know that anyone who preaches hate and intolerance – exclusion of any of God’s creatures – is not one that I need to be involved in.

  • Actually

    HG – agreed. ;) I should know better than to get into these kinds of debates before I’ve had my caffiene.

  • Actually

    HG,
    When did you get the idea that I think atheists are better? What I’m trying to get across is that NO ONE is better.

    I would, however, be interested to know what atheists invaded third world countries, set up missionaries, destroyed cultures and language all in the name of NOT believing in God?

    I am dying to know what atheists burned women at the stake? Or organized the Crusades? Even Hitler professed allegiance to non-sectarian Christianity, and we know what a peach he was to humanity.

    Communism is a cheap buzzword that people like to throw in the air when they’ve run out of intelligent arguments. It’s actually not a bad idea, but I’ve yet to see it executed in the correct way.

  • HG

    Actually,

    Religion is responsible for more suffering and murders in the world than any other cause

    Come on. Atheists are communist dictators. They have had their share of atrocities. Wake up.

    Do you see why? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind.

    Since the vast majority of people believe in God, calling one’s self an athiest is separating from far more than calling one’s self a Christian.

  • HG

    Communism is a cheap buzzword that people like to throw in the air when they’ve run out of intelligent arguments.

    Actually,

    Remember Stalin? How about China. The committed horrific attrocities against their own. Oh, ya. Cambodia, Vietnam, and North Korea. I’m pretty sure Russia alone was responible for approx. 126 million in the last century. 114 million for China.

    I’m not defending any atrocities committed by anybody. I’m just pointing out that religion isn’t to blame, people are.

  • robert108

    HG: Actually, it’s ideology that does the bad stuff. Communist ideology does not honor the independence and value of the individual, being collectivist, and therefore, the value of any individual human life is minimal in their ideology. It’s certainly not a “cheap buzzword”, and those that believe so are blind to the danger of lockstep ideology that denigrates the individual. In ideology, a central idea is more important than the individuals subjected to it.

  • robert108

    TW: It seems that we are wrong to be “The Policeman of the World”, unless the lefties are playing “Get the President”, then he is criticized for not being The Policeman of the World. Go figure. More leftie lying.

  • robert108

    aNON: They were transported in closed freight cars. I think the German population was in a state of denial, but they didn’t actively support Jew-hatred, like Dave said. History proves him wrong on that score. If the German public actively supported the death camps, why weren’t they more available to them? “Band of Brothers” has some good footage of what the death camps looked like and where they were located.

  • HG

    Oh no, not the God Warrior!

    I don’t see the resemblence. I think SS might be kiddin’.

  • aNONOMISLY

    aNON: They were transported in closed freight cars. I think the German population was in a state of denial, but they didn’t actively support Jew-hatred, like Dave said. History proves him wrong on that score. If the German public actively supported the death camps, why weren’t they more available to them? “Band of Brothers” has some good footage of what the death camps looked like and where they were located.

    I’M not talking about the “final solution” I’m talking about the inhumane acts committed against the Jews that preceeded “the final solution. Like confiscating all their properties, and taking them under the custody of the state, ..like the books-written-by-Jews burning orgies promoted by the state.

  • aNONOMISLY

    The truth is, Hitler kept the details of the “final solution” from the general German public. That’s the reason the death camps weren’t right in the center of the city; they were way out in the country, away from almost everybody.

    ..AND nobody could see the Jews go marching up and down and see that something really fishy and inhumane was going on..

  • robert108

    Bezu: If you want an example of what you can do with a video camera and some goading(although not that much, in this case), just go to the latest post on SA, “Clinton Unhinged”. Bear in mind that this guy is a professional liar, concerned mostly about his public image, unlike the poor woman in that video.

  • robert108

    Actually: In case you still don’t get it, there are lots of problems in this world; we are the one of only a few nations that has what it takes, both militarily and morally, to fight terrorism. Any country, including Venezuela, could help in Darfur. Why don’t they?

    Get it now?

  • robert108

    Why was the UN created, again? I was speaking directly to the avowed purpose of the UN, not what it actually does, like “Oil for food”, raping girls in third world countries, and running away from any real responsibility.
    Do you really believe that the US has “first responsibility” for every bad thing that goes on in the world? You are living in fantasyland, then. We are not the only ones who should be concerned with “HUMAN ISSUES” are we? What about Mahmoud and Hugo? Shouldn’t they be concerned with HUMAN ISSUES? If not, why not? Your anti-US anger is showing.

  • Actually

    Actually: You misstate the case. Darfur is an example of UN inaction, not US inaction. Darfur is a prime example of what the UN should be doing, but just doesn’t do. “Oil for food” anyone? We are focusing on Iraq because it is a knife in the heart of ME terrorism and totalitarianism. Get it?

    Oh bullshit. Shifting responsibility to the UN is a total cop-out and condescending to me isn’t going to make me see it any different. This isn’t a “UN” issue or a “US” issue. It’s a HUMAN BEING issue. Get it?

  • robert108

    Actually: You misstate the case. Darfur is an example of UN inaction, not US inaction. Darfur is a prime example of what the UN should be doing, but just doesn’t do. “Oil for food” anyone? We are focusing on Iraq because it is a knife in the heart of ME terrorism and totalitarianism. Get it?

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    plus, I think its a fake. ..a prank if you will, she’s acting.
    aNONOMISLY on September 22, 2006 at 7:51 PM

    Anon
    She’s not faking.. She just an extremely troubled and mentally unbalamce individual.

    This is what the concern about Jesus is all about; indoctrinating kids to be like this!

  • Actually

    I don’t think anyone should come down on the Germans for not preventing a holocaust when we’re allowing a confirmed one to go on right now in Darfur. But no one is really concerned about that, right? Let’s focus all the energy and money in Iraq, where the oil is. *sigh*

  • actually

    I guess I’ve misrepresented where I’m coming from here.

    I don’t think religion is the problem. Intolerance is. People who use religion as an excuse to breed intolerance are going against the core of what they preach. This is not spirituality – it’s an excuse.

    Stalin used intolerance to push religion out of Russia. That wasn’t right either.

  • robert108

    The US consumes a quarter of the world’s resources and is its single biggest destructor.

    One right, one wrong. China and Southeast Asia are the biggest polluters. We use a lot of resources, but we produce a lot, and share that with the rest of the world. Are you ignorant of US foreign aid? We are also the majority supporter of the UN, whose specific founding purpose was to address issues like Darfur, despite your ignorant denial.

    You’re damn right we have a bigger responsibility to step in where it’s necessary…and step out where it’s not.

    According to whom? You and your socialist buddies? When you start taking responsibility, you might have some decision-making power.

    I wonder how confident you’ll be when peak oil hits and you’re still crowing about the terrorists…

    “Peak oil”(if it ever happens at all, won’t “hit” for about 100 years, and by that time we will both be long dead, along with the terrorists. We will make terrorism obsolete in our lifetime, however, despite the best efforts of you lefties to support it.
    Your thinking is muddy, which is why experience “beats you down” with facts and truth. If you can’t take the heat, leave the kitchen.

  • robert108

    Yes, America has a first response position.

    On what basis?

  • Dave

    This story is so big, it’s now being covered by the local Mayville college media. OK…I’m the one covering it.

    Mayville college media broadcast

    Edited by admin: fixed the HTML link. AGAIN. May I suggest a book Dave? Or you could just go here and be done in about three minutes.

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Grown-Up example of the “Jesus Camp” Mentality

    If you want a good example of the probable outcomes of the Jesus camp mentality go to the above link.
    You’ll be amazed…or maybe not.

    Compliments of student student.

    Animal rights Dave should love it

  • robert108

    JJ: Only in your mind. Thank God for freedom of speech!

  • http://www.julieneidlinger.com/ Julie

    I don’t want to waste a bunch of Rob’s space here at SA, and I don’t want to fall into the trap of responding to absolutely everthing in an attempt to steer discussion.

    Regarding the phrases of “lay down your life” and being a soldier of God (The Whistler’s question), I have answered that in the ginormous comments section on my post. I don’t blame you for not wanting to slog through that… but the answer is there. I would give you a link to the comment but my comment permalinks are an area of code that I’ve been too lazy to debug because I don’t usually get lots of comments.

    Basically, the two can come down to a question of who the fight is against (not other humans) and how laying our lives down is something we do for others and not to others, i.e. we do not become suicide bombers or kamikaze anything.

  • robert108

    Dave:

    And however did he get the Germans to go along with him? What could possibly unite an entire people in Jew-hatred?

    The truth is, Hitler kept the details of the “final solution” from the general German public. That’s the reason the death camps weren’t right in the center of the city; they were way out in the country, away from almost everybody.

  • robert108

    Bezu: So, it’s a wild guess on your part, unsupported by any actual evidence. BTW, put me in your home with a video camera and an agenda, and I would have you putting out any message I wanted to. I’m just not that kind of person.
    It sounds more like what YouTube put out agrees with your prejudices about Christians more than anything else.

  • aNONOMISLY

    I’ve always thought that the German population looked away from what was happening. Of course they were powerless to do anything about it anyway.

    ..AN uprising against Hitler (maybe even putting a shot through his head) would have been nice. ..how many Germans directly served Hitler and his ideas. e.g. working for the government? ..In the military?

  • robert108

    actually: To call what Stalin did “intolerance” is a huge understatement.

  • http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/ beepbeepitsme

    RE: More on the Jesus Camp video including Parody
    http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/jesus-camp.html

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    Anon
    She’s not faking.. She’s just an extremely troubled and mentally unbalanced individual.

    This is what the concern about the Jesus camp is all about; indoctrinating kids to believe shit like this!

  • HG

    I guess I’ve misrepresented where I’m coming from here.

    Based on your last post, I would agree. You work on that and I’ll work on my spelling. (Atheist, atrocities, etc.)

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    This is smear of the first order.
    robert108 on September 22, 2006 at 7:45 PM

    Robert
    Come on man!
    A picture’s worth a thousand words and a video’s worth even more.

    It’s not a stretch at all to imagine many of the Jesus camp participants growing up to be just like the lady in Student Student’s video clip.

    “Jesus Camp” Mentality

    This is what Becky Fischer is promoting!!!!!!!!!!

    It is what it is bro!

  • aNONOMISLY

    STUDENT,

    robert108: and we all know how “real” she is to bother being on the show. If I were her, I wouldn’t be representing my congregation like that on tv.

    student, if wasnt real

    YouTube has many like it(1) (2):

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    what pastor did is to be admired, unlike what Becky Fischer doe.
    aNONOMISLY on September 22, 2006 at 8:37 PM

    My bad!!

    A feeble an inappropriate attempt at humor!!

    It sounds more like what YouTube put out agrees with your prejudices about Christians more than anything else.
    robert108 on September 22, 2006 at 8:52 PM

    First of all-they’re not christians-that’s the point.
    Secondly, for a guy that’s usually so logical, you’ve drastically missed the mark here; perhaps because of your predjudices about non-christians.

  • Bezu Fache

    Bezu, do you consider yourself a Christian?
    aNONOMISLY on September 23, 2006 at 06:52 am

    Anon,
    I consider myself a person who tries to follow the (original) teachings of Jesus Christ, but who often times fails miserably to do so.
    I don’t pretend to be anything other than what I am.

    But by today’s standard definition of “Christian,” as it is outlined, interpreted, and underscored by Becky Fischer and so many of the commentators on this thread, the answer would be an unequivocal and unhesitatingly loud, Hell no!!!!

  • aNONOMISLY

    this is very cute, ..

    “the sermon was about forgiveness”

  • http://www.campus-watch.org/ Bezu Fache

    do you have any evidence at all that this woman had anything to do with the Jesus Camp?
    Robert108

    Who the hell said she had anything to do with the jesus camp?
    Here’s what I wrote:

    It’s not a stretch at all to imagine many of the Jesus camp participants growing up to be just like the lady in Student Student’s video clip

    So the question of “evidence” of jesus camp affiliation is not relevant at all to the discussion.

    This guy’s got the right idea

  • robert108

    Julie: Thanks for the additional info and the personal testimony. I suspected from the beginning that we weren’t getting the whole story, partly because this appeared on the MSM, and because leftie talk radio got on it. Until you, I had never heard anything from former participants in the camp, and you confirm what I would expect. The original post really brought all the anti-Christian extremists out of the woodwork here at SA, and we are all the richer for knowing how crazy they are. To me, the entire thing is a First Amendment issue.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ Dave

    Rob: At the top it says this post had 149 comments. Now there are less than 50. What happened?

  • Justin Jones

    Any time the phrase “soldier of God” is used … bad news bears. To say servant or follower is one thing, but soldier implies the use of force, violence and changing people’s minds through aggression and a lack of tolerance.

  • aNONOMISLY

    Well said Bezu.

  • Joe Miller

    If you are concerned, then be concerned. Personally, I know that I am more concerned about those who are radical about not being radical about anything.

    Love it! Well said.

  • http://awakenedwarrior.com/ Dirty Jack Cash

    Bezu

    This discussion about Becky Fischer’s Camp has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus’teaching or what the bilble says.

    The two are completely unrealted and you’re stupid to keep bringing them up.

    Robert is right. You must be anti-christian.
    Cindy on September 23, 2006 at 05:19 am

    Did anybody notice the (absloutely beautiful) implication of these words??

  • http://awakenedwarrior.com/ Bezu Fache

    The offspring of ideology and theology are not always bad but they are always blind. And that is the danger.

    Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a worldview despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality.

    Remember James Watt, President Reagan’s first secretary of the interior?
    Watt told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
    In public testimony he said,

    “After the last tree is felled, L Christ will come back?’

    This past November, several million good and decent citizens went to the polls believing in what is known as the “rapture index?

    These true believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the imagination of millions of Americans.

    Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre:

    Once Israel has occupied the rest of its “biblical lands:’ legions of the Antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon.

    As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the rapture.

    True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the several years of tribulation that follow.

    They are sincere, serious and polite as they tell you they feel called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

    A 2002 Time/CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelations are going to come true.

    44% believe it will happen in their lifetime

    .

    Tune in to any of the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations or flip on one of the 250 Christian TV stations across the country and you can hear some of this end-time gospel

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    likwid: I asked a question to which I don’t know the answer; I guess you don’t, either.

    They don’t post any videos. People who use the site do all of the posting. There is your answer.

    Do they post any videos that are favorable to Christians?

    Uh,..acquaint yourself with the website in question.

    Feel free to post any videos you want (minus copyright violations and porn).

  • http://www.museumofleftwinglunacy.com/archives/2004/10/teresa_urges_de.html Joe Riley

    Well said Bezu. I agree.
    Our willingness to suspend reason in favor of religious beliefs, even when those beliefs are used to justify harmful behavior and sometimes heinous crimes, can not continue.

    We cannot afford moderate lip service to religion–an accommodation that only blinds us to the real perils of fundamentalism.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    robert108 asked, Is YouTube balanced on this subject, or do they have an agenda?

    Anybody can post videos onto YouTube, so your criticism here lacks a bit of substance.

    lisa gets more ridiculous, Saddam is not religious but born of Muslim parents…

    The guy only transcribed the Koran using his own blood, but he wasn’t religious?

  • robert108

    likwid: I asked a question to which I don’t know the answer; I guess you don’t, either. Do they post any videos that are favorable to Christians? If I post a criticism, you will know it, so don’t put words in my mouth, please.

    lisa: The Holocaust was perpetrated by a European against Europeans, in Europe. You should know that. Get a grip. It had nothing to do with Christianity or the principles of Christianity. It was one European trying to rule all the other Europeans. It was a European thing, not a Christian thing or an American thing. In fact, Hitler was what would probably be described today as a Wiccan or a Druid. He used Christianity, like Clinton, to sway the masses, but wasn’t a Christian in any way.
    You still can’t seem to name any “Christian terrorism” going on today. Your mischaracterization of the past is comical, but a similar search into Islam will yield far worse deeds then, as well. The contrast today is that Islam is still at it, while Christianity no longer does any of that stuff.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    I don’t generally go to the site, and so don’t know much about it.

    Here’s the deal: they get an order of 60,000 or so new videos a day. They serve an order of 10 million or so videos a day. (Who knows what their bandwidth bill is, but it has got to be astronomical.)

    Both Rob and I have accounts to upload vids.

  • robert108

    likwid: Here’s the deal: I don’t generally go to the site, and so don’t know much about it. It seemed strange to me that at the same time as the lefties are trying to sell the idea of a “Christian jihad”, this video appears, even though this woman has been running the camp for years. I thought they might have an agenda there, but from what you say, maybe not.

  • lisa

    Rob,you asked if any one can record any terror acts that were done by christians similar to today`s,BRING IT ON.
    I did and you made some of your weak and laughed at excuses.Any terror acts that were done by Christians,you TRY and twist it ,even though it don`t work.
    They have done FAR FAR worse.I mean for you to deny Hitler as a non Christian is a joke.Was he a muslim or a self hating jew?.

    Saddam is not religious but born of Muslim parents,infact some of the prisoners who were freed after the take over of Iraq ,WHEN ASKED WHY HE WAS IN PRISONED?.he said Saddam had a habit of arresting men who were too religious and prayed a lot,and this can be told by the forehead`s little grey mark.Because they scared him as in possing a threat of Coup,knowing that they are not affraid to die just to kill him.Like the Wahabeis whom the Saudei rulers are terrifeid from and beleive me ALL the Muslims Hate them and are scared of them.Bin laden became one of them.
    If the royal family dares upsets them,they will remove them within hours.The royals when in the west,they are different.The wahabbeis Blasphem all non Wahabei muslims.

    Fisher is not similar to terrorism NOW,but this is how you train you young to extremism then leave them when they are older to do what you brain washed in beleif.The crying of the children is scary.

    KEN,Hitler was a Christian and deid a Christian,even he was a catholic seeing you said he killed catholics.Like the jews killing a jew(JESUS).Then we must accept Muslims whan they say Laden is not a Muslim ,even he claims to be one.Then you say that ALL the terror that was done by Christian whites against their fellow Black Christians are not for religious reasons, and the killing of Natives.Then for What?.They were DIE HARD CHRISTIANS,some preaching from the Bible segragation,and that slavery is OK.They were using the Bible to preach slavery and hatred according to their Translation,as Islamic ,and Jewish Extremists DO from their Books.

    AS Dave said if Hitler`s acts were not Christian based then why did he preach and Rant about the Bible and Christianity?What about the WHOLE of Germany,and Italy`s mossolini,and france…etc,even not all the people in each country beleived and followed these Terrorit Christians,but they let it Happen.

    Rob another feeble excuse is that the Camp was far away in the country side!!and not the city.Well as anonomisly said didn`t the people see them marching with the Star of David on their Arms,their shops marked too,and their homes confiscated?.Ufortunatly only to turn round and do it to the Palestinians.The evil is in every one of us,like it or not.Claiming no one saw them being transported is like the jews saying they found Palestine empty of inhabitants.

    So Rob Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11,but a dictator who should have been killed by one of his own people through suicide bombong instead of doing it to each other`s innocent civillians.

    Lastly who are you kidding guys.UN take a dicission without BIG BROTHER United states agreement? that will be the day.When the whole Un votes against something and US alone do not agree,then US gets what it wants.This UN thing is only their to cover the real one state rule.

  • aNONOMISLY

    rob:

    lisa: The Holocaust was perpetrated by a European against Europeans, in Europe. You should know that. Get a grip. It had nothing to do with Christianity or the principles of Christianity.

    I agree with you rob. Hitler may have in someway modeled his movement after certain dogmas of the church, but to attribute what he did to Chistianity is as rediculous as attributing it to Charles Darwin, Natural selection or his theory of Evolution.

  • robert108

    aNON: Except for one thing you said, thanks. There is no “Church dogma” that calls for killing all the Jews or the infirm.

  • robert108

    CSP:

    How refreshing to see kindred spirits recognizing that we have caught up with the fundamentalists of Islam,
    Until you have Christian terrorists strapping bombs on children, and generally killing people in the name of imposing their religion, this is simply wrong.
    with our own self-righteous Madrassas. Clearly a segment of Homo Sapiens suffers from power mongering and intolerance. Perhaps if we address this fundamental human flaw, we might make some progress. If not, history will repeat itself over and over untl we destroy the planet.

  • docdave

    are you suggesting Pastor Becky Fischer is not a Christian?

    I have no idea but it’s seem unlikely that she is part of any major denomination. You have information about this?

  • CSP

    1st post!
    How refreshing to see kindred spirits recognizing that we have caught up with the fundamentalists of Islam, with our own self-righteous Madrassas. Clearly a segment of Homo Sapiens suffers from power mongering and intolerance. Perhaps if we address this fundamental human flaw, we might make some progress. If not, history will repeat itself over and over untl we destroy the planet.

  • nyoped

    I had found this blog from a google search then I checked out the homepage and the titles of other posts… I haven’t seen any post about environement but let me guess you have doubts about pro-envorinment ideas… if so can someone explain me why same people defend the same ideas (war, oil, races…)? So far only two things these like-minded people questioned are “Jesus Camp” documentary and scientific evidence about global warming.

  • 2Hotel9

    So,you are here to advocate for the release of all known terrorists? Do we rearm them at release? Will you sponsor some of these unfortunate waifs in your home? Perhaps you will enjoy going to their homelands and watching them murder more of their own children and women, that ought to be loads of fun. Mayhaps they will allow you to attain martyrdom alongside them? That is their declared intent. To gain the rewards of Heaven by killing as many innocent people as they can. The more they kill, the higher their standing in the eyes of their God. Christians want to attain the rewards of Heaven by convincing as many people as possible to accept Jesus as their savior, and by helping the poor, the lame, and the elderly. Wow, CSP, you are exactly right!!! That is exactly the same as Muslim Jihadis killing their own children and women and any other innocent bystanders, along with the occaisional Coalition troop the accidentally manage to bag. You leftards are pathetic.

  • robert108

    CSP: Your assertions are the usual BS. Compared to what America’s enemies do to their prisoners, we do not torture. According to the Geneva Convention, which only the US obeys, illegal combatants(which includes all terrorists) can be summarily executed on the spot; we give them much better treatment than the GC allows. No one is held “because of their beliefs”, they are held for their actions. You are a joke.

  • nyoped

    It does not matter if the fight was not against another human. Why does a kid have to ‘fight’ for what her parents believe? Do parents have the right to abuse a kid’s mind?

  • 2Hotel9

    CSP, so why don’t you just slit your wrists and spare us your whiny bullshit? If death is what you have accepted then grasp it with both hands and leave the world to we living that actually give a fuck about it.

  • robert108

    CSP: Hopefully, it is the “end of days” for the terrorists. We have the power to obliterate them, if they don’t wake up to reality. It’s their choice.

  • Nguyen Tan Dung

    Thanks for your sage forecast of the end of days, for that’s where all of this going,
    CSP on October 1, 2006 at 07:42 pm

    Left Behind is a series of (fiction) novels by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, dealing with Christian dispensationalist End Times: pretribulation, premillennial, Christian eschatology viewpoint of the end of the world.

    The end times are, in some versions of Judeo-Christian eschatology and in Islam, a time of tribulation that will precede the coming of a Messiah figure.

    Specifically, what is usually referred to as the end times revolves around a group of beliefs in Christian or Rastafari millennialism.

    The (fictional) series is based on a ffantastical theology concocted in the 19th century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the imagination of millions of Americans.

    This fantastical theology disseminates a belief that true believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the several years of tribulation that follow.

    59% of its adherents believe it will happen in their lifetime. I.e. the next 50 years.

    Born out of the restless religious environment in England and Ireland in the 1820s, dispensationalism is rooted in the Plymouth Brethren movement, especially the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882).

    John Nelson Darby, (November 18, 1800 – April 29, 1882) was an Anglo-Irish evangelist, an influential figure among the original Plymouth Brethren, and considered the father of modern Dispensationalism

  • http://bezufache.wordpress.com/ Bezu Fache

    Holy Shit Bill. That was a mouthful!

  • CSP

    It appears rudeness and profanity are welcome here. Good bye!

  • robert108

    Just so you understand that this is not a view of a majority of Christians. If you want to read some real nutty stuff, read what was written just before the First Millenium. The belief that the world was coming to an end was really widespread then. We’re still going.

  • CSP

    Thanks for your sage forecast of the end of days, for that’s where all of this going, left, right and center.

  • William Foster

    I have not yet seen this movie, but I have been to Pentecostal and Charismatic church’s where you see alot of what we’ve seen in the clips. I also do not believe that they are brainwashing the children into strapping a bomb to themselves, and becoming “meatbombs” for the “cause of Christ”. I do believe, however, that none of what we’ve seen so far will save anyone from GOD’s wrath that is to come. We all have stolen, lied, lusted, coveted, dishonored our parents, taken GOD’s name in vain, and created our own GOD, in our own image, in our own minds (contrary to the one and only true GOD of the Holy Bible, and yes, those are His words, not mine). These are but a few of our sins committed against the infinite GOD who has given us life. The GOD described in our Bible is infinite (meaning: He is eternal, and has no beginning nor end) which makes our breaking of His laws infinite as well (meaning: on a scale of 1 to 10, they are like 1 to infinity, but without the 1). He, in His infinite wisdom, makes the rules that we must live by (if we choose too). He is so kind that He in His love for us, He gives us a free will (meaning: we can do either what is right, or what is wrong), knowledge written on our hearts (meaning: a conscience by which we can discern what is right and what is wrong), and the freedom of choice to either choose or reject His gift of eternal salvation FROM His wrath of which we all indeed deserve (because of our sin). We must face the truth (and this truth does not contradict another truth, so there is only one), and there is no way around it: He created us, He created everything, and we/it all belongs to Him. The wages of our sin is death (meaning: that the consequences of our breaking of the Law is punishable by death because of who the offense (law breaking) has been done against, the infinite GOD). “I don’t deserve to go to hell” is what many of us say because we are selfrighteous, and believe we are good people. No one is good but GOD and as I stated above, if we have broken but one of His commandments, we deserve justice, and Hell is reasonable justice! Look at it this way: Would you want murderers and rapist walking around scott free? Absolutely not! You would want them in jail and for justice to be served. GOD will punish all murderers and rapists, but He’s not going to stop there! He’s going to also punish all liars, thieves, fornicators, ect. We are all guilty and without excuse, but He made a way for us to escape His wrath. By repenting of our sins (meaning: to turn away from) , forsaking our sins (meaning: to drop them like a bad habit), and trusting in the perfect sacrifice of His Son in our place, Jesus (meaning: that our sin(s) has doomed each and everyone of us to eternal punishment (infinite), and the only way to be rid of our sin, or to have it taken away forever is by the blood of a perfect sacrifice, or perfect human being who has never sinned). Adam was the first perfect man, and he brought sin into the world, and Jesus has come to not cover our sins (in reference to the sacrifices done in the past by the Israelites for the covering of their sin), but to take away the sin of the world). Why blood? Because when we sin, it’s a death sentence, blood contains life, so when you or I sin, something or someone must die to satisfy that proclaimed death sentence and it will be either you, me or a sacrifice’s life’s blood which will cover our sin (infinite law breaking) out of GOD’s sight (hey, He made the rules not me, and He made us, and what’s so hard about humbling ourselves as a child, and repenting? Is our pride that stubborn?). Then after death, is judgement. So It is your choice: 1. Continue to live in sin without repentance and faith with the result of being judged and sentenced to reasonble justice (hell) as a consequence of your unholy dirty deeds committed against an infinite GOD after you die, or 2. repent, trust in the Savior who has been so kind in giving His perfect life’s blood to take away your sin forever, to save you from GOD’s wrath, and to live forever (you) with no more fear, death, crying, raping, stealing, lying, … well, you get the point. Whether you believe in what GOD says or not is irrelevant. The lake of fire does exist, and it was created for Satan and the other 1/3 of the fallen angels who rebeled (unrighteously) against the infinite, Holy, righteous judge, YHWH (the one true GOD). This is the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ, not the movie Jesus Camp. I only hope the children are being taught this truth being their only saving grace, and not flopping around on the floor in convulsions (not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it will not save you from GOD’s wrath that abides upon all mankind who has not repented and trusted in Jesus Christ). OK I’m done! May the flames of this forum consume me for speaking truth, but not the flames of the Lake of Fire!

  • CSP

    Thanks for informing us that Christians don’t advocate suicide bombers. However, lest we forget our denied torturing of detainees, being held in perpetuity, self-righteous rationalization of reprehensible treatment of others, simply because of their differing beliefs, the entire world will recognize the Talibanization of the US.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Sorry about that Dave, it is fixed now.

    For some reason it wasn’t displaying comments past a certain number on the posts, but they’re all back now.

  • Ryan

    I thought there was a lot of Zionist propaganda in this movie. But I guess that's what being a evangelical christian is…

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