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Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Rethinking Birthright Citizenship

This is interesting, though it's from 2005.

Testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives, Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims (Sept. 29, 2005) contends that the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment has been misconstrued as mandating birthright citizenship. Rather, the clause was a codification of the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which quite clearly exempted from the automatic citizenship provisions children of parents who owed allegiance to a foreign power - i.e., those who were in the U.S. only temporarily (and particularly those who were in the U.S. illegally). This was the understanding of those who drafted and those who ratified the 14th Amendment, and was confirmed by the Supreme Court in the first two cases to address the clause. In 1898, the Court reversed course, though, holding that the Clause mandated birthright citizenship, resulting in a repudiation of the principle of bilateral consent as the foundation for citizenship.


Here is the pertinent text from the 14th amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.


I think it's pretty clear from that clause that in order to be able to claim birthright citizenship in the United States you must meet two criteria:

  1. Be born in the United States.


  2. Be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.


Obviously a child born to illegal immigrants here in the United States meets the first criteria, but does the child meet the second criteria?

I don't think so. Illegal immigrants are, by definition, subjects of another nation. Most illegal immigrants who are currently in this country are citizens of Mexico, for instance. Thus, by definition, these illegal immigrants are not subject to U.S. jurisdiction. They're often detained by law enforcement here in the U.S. and charged/convicted of crimes, but ultimately they are Mexican citizens and subject to the jurisdiction of that country, not this one.

That America exercises jurisdiction in the absence of any willingness on Mexico's behalf to exercise jurisdiction does not change that fact.

Consider Americans traveling abroad in, say, France. If an American is in Paris and steals a car and then subsequently is arrested that American can be tried and convicted under French laws. Does that mean the American is subject to France's jurisdiction? Only so far as the American government is willing to allow. And usually our government does allow American civilians to stand trial for crimes they've committed in foreign courts as long as there are assurances that the trial will be in keeping with the rights American citizens are granted by our Constitution.

For most countries to which Americans routinely travel there are treaties and agreements in place as to how to deal with foreign citizens who commit crimes, but none of these treaties change the fact that the foreign citizen in question is ultimately under the jurisdiction of his/her home country, not the country he/she is in.

Because of this, I don't think that children born in the United States to illegal immigrants (or other people who are in the U.S. but not citizens) are automatically citizens of this country. Now, obviously, the federal courts have ruled otherwise using reasoning contrary to mine, but I think the Constitution is actually pretty clear on this subject.

It's just sad we've gone away from it.

Comments

It’s about time we reversed that decision.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2006 at 07:44 am
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All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

how does been subject to the jurisdiction of another country preclude someone borned and leaving in the US from been subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?

p.s. our country accepts dual citizenships

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 08:08 am

aNON: If breaking the law by entering the country illegally isn’t escaping the jurisdiction of the US, then what is?

Being deported is being subject to the jurisdiction of the US; eluding capture is not being subject to the jurisdiction of the US, by definition.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2006 at 08:12 am
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how does been subject to the jurisdiction of another country preclude someone borned and leaving in the US from been subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?

p.s. our country accepts dual citizenships

Dual citizenship isn’t really at issue here.  If people are citizens of the United States then they are citizens, and so are their children.

But illegal immigrants are not citizens of this country thus not under the ultimate jurisdiction of U.S. law.  And yes, illegal immigrants are held accountable for U.S. laws, but that doesn’t make them U.S. citizens any more than an American held accountable for stealing a car in France makes him/her a French citizen.


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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 08:20 am
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Jurisdiction

1 : the power, right, or authority to interpret and apply the law
2 a : the authority of a sovereign power to govern or legislate b : the power or right to exercise authority : CONTROL
3 : the limits or territory within which authority may be exercised

Sounds to me like the United State basiclly has jurisdiction over just about everyone living here (the only exception, and only to a certain extent, I can think of is diplomats).  In fact, I would argue we have more jurisdiction over undocumended and their US borned childrens than we do of US borned American citizens living abroad.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 08:22 am
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Anon, we don’t have absolute jurisdiction over illegal immigrants living here.  If Mexico chose to get involved (which they don’t, typically) they could take over jurisdiction and bring the illegals back to their country.

They don’t do this, but their lack of exercised jurisdiction does not imply that our jurisdiction is absolute.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 08:24 am
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Another slippery slope just as the Voting Rights based on Taxpayership.

I’m not question whether we have a problem, we do - and we are fighting our own party over the issue.

But there has got to be a way to take care of the problem without amending the constitution.

Maybe enforcing the laws on the books?  What a concept!

FreeRepublicans.com on August 29, 2006 at 08:27 am
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If an American is in Paris and steals a car and then subsequently is arrested that American can be tried and convicted under French laws. Does that mean the American is subject to France’s jurisdiction? Only so far as the American government is willing to allow.

I don’t think that’s right.  I think that if you are arrested all the US can insist upon is that you are treated no worse than a Frenchie.  Otherwise there would be no way to punish criminal aliens.

The Whistler on August 29, 2006 at 08:33 am
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Anon, we don’t have absolute jurisdiction over illegal immigrants living here. If Mexico chose to get involved (which they don’t, typically) they could take over jurisdiction and bring the illegals back to their country.

YES we do, if they are in the US.  Take the death penalty for example, Mexico has no death penalty, so they always complain when we catch on of their citizen committing a henious crime and than convict him to the death penalty, but we have every right to apply capital punishment to anyone committing a crime under our laws(and have done so).

Crime treaties are actually generally signed in case that person is caught in a foreign country (extradition purpose), or when we one our citizens to have additional protection in a foreign country, take our military in Japan as an example. 

In the absence of an agreement to the contrary, we can do anything we want with a citizen of another country we catch committing a crime inside our territory.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 08:33 am
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p.s. our country accepts dual citizenships

Uh no, actually.  Our government tolerates it, but does not accept it.  When an immigrant takes their oath to become a citizen they renounce their citizenship of their former country.  The fact that our state department and/or justice department do not follow up and confirm that the immgrants have disposed of their foreign passports and notified their former governments does not make it legal for them to be dual citizens.

kbiel on August 29, 2006 at 08:35 am
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..no permission from any foreign ‘ententy’ is required

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 08:36 am
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I believe aNON is correct that these things come down to treaties.  So if you commit a crime in the US and flee to England we can demand extradition. 

However if you (a US citizen) commit a crime in England and flee to the US you cannot be extradited to England. 

I wish to address the basic point of the post.

I wish that we would deny citizenship to someone born here when the mother was illegal.  I don’t believe in rewarding crime.  HOWEVER, I don’t read the Constitution that way.

The Whistler on August 29, 2006 at 08:38 am
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k-man, your’re right. ..long time since I took international law, but thank you for ‘resheshing’ my memory.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 08:39 am
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Let’s set aside the question of who has jurisdiction in the case of crimes being comitted.

If you’re a Mexican who has ultimate jurisdiction over you?  The Mexican government, right?  If you’re an American, same thing.

I don’t think the intent of the 14th amendment was to grant citizenship to every person born within our borders regardless of whether or not their parents are here legally, etc.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 09:10 am
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If you’re a Mexican who has ultimate jurisdiction over you? The Mexican government, right? If you’re an American, same thing.

If you’re a Mexicna caught within American territory, THE UNITED STATES HAS ULTIMATE JURISDICTION OVER YOU. ..we can do anything we want with you without Mexico’s consent, Mexico can’t do anything with you without our consent. ..capice?

SAME thing applies to crimminal we wan’t who are hiding abroad (both US citizens and foreign citizens ..e.g. Pablo Escobar and other drug cartel people), hence why we sign extradition agreements with other countries.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 09:18 am
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If an American is caught in Mexico, the Mexican government can bargain the condition by which it extredite him (i.e. a guaranteed that the death penaly/life in prison will not be applied). If a Mexican citizen is caught committing a henious crime here in the US, we can chop his head off no matter how much Mexico pisses, bitches and moan.  ..capice?

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 09:24 am
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If you’re a Mexicna caught within American territory, THE UNITED STATES HAS ULTIMATE JURISDICTION OVER YOU. ..we can do anything we want with you without Mexico’s consent, Mexico can’t do anything with you without our consent. ..capice?

I don’t think that’s exactly right.  Certainly U.S. government could do whatever we wanted to Mexican citizens in our country and face down the furor that would result from our government having broken a multitude of treaties and agreements we’ve entered into.

The fact that our jurisdiction is limited by these things means that we do not have ultimate jurisdiction.

But regardless, in order to believe what you’re saying anon we have wo say that both requirements in the 14th amendment mean the same thing.

I don’t think they do.  I think the intent of the 14th amendment was to grant citizenship to everyone who was born here regardless of the fact that the child’s parents might be illegal immigrants.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 09:28 am
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could do whatever we wanted to Mexican citizens in our country and face down the furor that would result from our government having broken a multitude of treaties and agreements we’ve entered into

I don’t think we have any treaty with Mexico dictating that any of its citizens caught within our sovereign territory must/should be treated different from any of our citizen we catch committing a crime within our country. (diplomats probably being the only exception)
Please point it out to me we you can find any other.

Now I have a question for you, ..

Do you agree with the statement that we have more jurisdiction over the US born clildren of illigals living within our sorereign territory than we do over US borned Americans citizens living in a foreign country?

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 09:37 am
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I think the intent of the 14th amendment was to grant citizenship to everyone who was born here regardless of the fact that the child’s parents might be illegal immigrants.

Then what is the point of this blog post? ..we both now agree

But it seems you were originally arguing the exact opposite of that. ..werent you?

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 09:41 am
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I don’t think that’s exactly right. Certainly U.S. government could do whatever we wanted to Mexican citizens in our country and face down the furor that would result from our government having broken a multitude of treaties and agreements we’ve entered into.

Actually, our states (my state in particular) do what they want with foreign citizens.  We do grant extradition hearings on occasion, but only when there is a crime that was committed in the criminals home country.

Smarter minds than my own will have to determine how that affects the birthright though.  I would prefer that it didn’t, but jurisdiction is a somewhat ambiguous word in this context.  Certainly a foreign national on our soil is obliged to respect our laws or face the consequences.  On the other hand, they are not a citizen and have dimished obligations and rights because of their status as non-citizens.

kbiel on August 29, 2006 at 09:41 am
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But it seems you were originally arguing the exact opposite of that. ..werent you?

That should have read I don’t think the intent of the 14th amendment was to grant citizenship to everyone who was born here regardless of the fact that the child’s parents might be illegal immigrants.

Actually, our states (my state in particular) do what they want with foreign citizens.

Only because in many instances the federal government refuses to do much of anything.

Certainly a foreign national on our soil is obliged to respect our laws or face the consequences. On the other hand, they are not a citizen and have dimished obligations and rights because of their status as non-citizens.

Which is why I think the second requirement in the 14th amendment precludes illegal immigrants.

I’ll grant that the language is ambiguous, but the original intent of that particular clause was to ensure that the children of slaves who were brought here against their will would be American citizens.  The intent was not to grant citizenship to the children of people who willfull break our laws in coming here, though that’s what it has come to mean.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 09:58 am
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k-man, exactly what I’m saying: We have ultimate jurisdiction over just about anyone within our country unless we agree to an exception (e.g. diplomats to a certain extent)

We are the ones that ultimately decide


Due to it being a Catholic country, Mexico doesn’t have a death penalty (no even life inprisoment I believe)

IF the Mexicon had ultimate jurisdiction, it would mean we wouldn’t be able to execute any Mexicna borned citizen (or even condenm them to life imprisonment) caught inside ou border. But that is not the case.

WE ARE THE ULTIMATE JURISDICTION

If we say you die, ..you die! ..no matter however the Mexican government may feel about it:

Texas Resists Pressure From Mexico, Executes Cop Killer

HUNTSVILLE, Texas – Despite interference from Mexico, the state ..executed a Mexican for the murder of a Dallas police officer.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 09:58 am
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..AND this aren’t even US borned ..

with a US borned if would be so fruitless to complain that I HIGHLY doubt the Mexican government would even bother too..

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 10:01 am
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Only because in many instances the federal government refuses to do much of anything.

The U.S. Supreme Court though the argument put forth by the Mexican was so fruitless it considered but didn’t bother to accept hearing the case:

Javier Suarez Medina, 33, was pronounced dead at 6:23 p.m. after receiving a lethal injection for the murder of officer Lawrence Cadena during a 1988 undercover drug investigation. Suarez was the fifth Mexican citizen executed in Texas for murder.
...
Earlier in the day the U.S. Supreme Court and Gov. Rick Perry rejected last minute appeals from the Mexican government to halt the execution.

Without comment, the Supreme Court refused to hear arguments from attorneys who claimed that Suarez was denied his rights to contact his nation’s consulate 14 years ago when he was arrested.

We decided he die, and so he died irrigardless of a strong objection by the Mexican government.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 10:05 am
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Possesion is 9/10 ths of the law.

WOOF on August 29, 2006 at 10:08 am

Woof: Possession is 9 points of the law.

Yours is a common misquote, right up there with “The proof is in the pudding.” It’s really: “The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” Have a nice day.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2006 at 10:12 am
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I thought you wanted to punish just the brown-skinned adults. Now it turns out you want to punish the brown-skinned babies as well.

You’re a monster.

Don Myers on August 29, 2006 at 10:33 am
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Don, I can’t debate ya, but I can insult ya, Myers.

I for one will come out and say that illegal aliens from Scandinavia should be treated the same as illegal aliens from Mexico.

The Whistler on August 29, 2006 at 10:36 am

Don: It’s only about skin color for you hate-filled lefties.  The rest of us just want the illegals to return to their own countries and work to make them better, instead of coming here and leeching off of us.  Get it?


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2006 at 10:51 am
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I for one will come out and say that illegal aliens from Scandinavia should be treated the same as illegal aliens from Mexico.

Bullshit.

The current immigration kerfluffle is rooted in the hardcore racism of the lunatic rightwing. That’s why most of the so-called ‘Minutemen’ are Klan and Aryan Nation types.

And for the record, whist, I CAN debate---just not with fanatics and lunatics who are topo cowardly to sign their names.

Don Myers on August 29, 2006 at 10:52 am
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Rob,

I get your point on original intent, but that does not change the fact that jurisdiction is a loaded word.  There may be a way to split that hair though.  While on U.S. soil all people are subject to our laws.  Being non-citizens though they are subject to extradiction to their native country for crimes committed there unless there is some kind of recognized persecution.  A U.S. citizen is never subject to extradiction to a foreign country and should a U.S. citizen reach a U.S. embassy in another country before they are caught by foreign authorities they will not be handed over.  Therein lies the jurisdiction argument.  Once a citizen of the U.S. has reached U.S. soil they are not subject to the laws (the jurisdiction) of a foreign country.  On the other hand, being on U.S. does not guarentee that a non-citizen is granted immunity from the jurisdiction of their native country.

kbiel on August 29, 2006 at 10:54 am
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OOPS!

That should read : “...who are to cowardly to sign their names.”

Mea Culpa.

Don Myers on August 29, 2006 at 10:54 am
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And for the record, whist, I CAN debate---just not with fanatics and lunatics who are topo cowardly to sign their names.

And just how do we know (or why should we care) that you really are Don Myers?

Way to go trying to find an out.

The Whistler on August 29, 2006 at 10:54 am
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FUCK! What the hell is wrong with my typing/spelling skills today?

That should really read : “...who are too cowardly to sign their names.”

I’m gonna go hide under my copy of Strunk & White.

Don Myers on August 29, 2006 at 10:56 am
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Please r108 and whistler, don’t feed the trolls.  They may be funny, in a deranged sort of way, but their idiocy and lies quickly become tiresome.

kbiel on August 29, 2006 at 10:57 am

Don: “The current immigration kerfluffle is rooted in the hardcore racism of the lunatic rightwing.”

This is your hate-filled fantasy about anyone who doesn’t buy into your Marxist ideology.  Nice namecalling, no substance, as usual.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2006 at 11:01 am
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Rob,

To simplify my wordy answer.  I would agree that the 14th amendment means “subject to the jurisdiction thereof [to the exclusion of all other nations]”.  I believe that is what was meant as it was written, but I don’t know how we get a judiciary that is more concerned with making things up when the language seems ambiguous and stare decisis than with looking at original intent.

kbiel on August 29, 2006 at 11:02 am

kbiel: Don is like a rawhide chew toy for me.  I get my exercise warmup by refuting his puerile rants, and then go on to something subsantive.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2006 at 11:03 am
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While on U.S. soil all people are subject to our laws. Being non-citizens though they are subject to extradiction to their native country for crimes committed there unless there is some kind of recognized persecution. A U.S. citizen is never subject to extradiction to a foreign country and should a U.S. citizen reach a U.S. embassy in another country before they are caught by foreign authorities they will not be handed over. Therein lies the jurisdiction argument. Once a citizen of the U.S. has reached U.S. soil they are not subject to the laws (the jurisdiction) of a foreign country. On the other hand, being on U.S. does not guarentee that a non-citizen is granted immunity from the jurisdiction of their native country.

I see where you’re coming from, but if “jurisdiction” means the same as “in the United States” then the 14th amendment is repetitive because it says born in the United States and subject to U.S. jurisdiction.

They weren’t just trying to say the same thing twice, they were setting up two criteria for birthright citizenship.  I think we have to go with original intent, and original intent was not to grant citizenship to illegal immigrants.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 11:03 am
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I see where you’re coming from, but if “jurisdiction” means the same as “in the United States” then the 14th amendment is repetitive because it says born in the United States and subject to U.S. jurisdiction.

Born in the US and if not still living there at least subjecting yourself to the jurisdiction of the US.  I guess you don’t lose your citizenship when you take the road trip to Canadia.

The Whistler on August 29, 2006 at 11:07 am

It seems obvious that the part about jurisdiction is significant and different from just “being here”, or else they wouldn’t have included it.  I would say it is a statement about the person in question; whether they have accepted the jurisdiction of the United States, and in the case of someone here illegally, they obviously have not.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 29, 2006 at 11:11 am
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..Not necessarily repetetive.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 11:12 am
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Let me repeat what Robert just said:

It seems obvious that the part about jurisdiction is significant and different from just “being here”, or else they wouldn’t have included it. I would say it is a statement about the person in question; whether they have accepted the jurisdiction of the United States, and in the case of someone here illegally, they obviously have not.

That’s where I’m at on this as well.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 11:26 am
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I think the courts are going to rule that as being more inclusive.  In this case I unfortunately, would agree with them.

Let’s cut ‘em off at the border (and the evil Scandahoovians at the airports) and the problem is moot.

The Whistler on August 29, 2006 at 11:32 am
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I think the courts have already ruled on it being more inclusive long ago.

I guess I just disagree with ‘em.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 29, 2006 at 11:35 am
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That’s not illegal, yet.

The Whistler on August 29, 2006 at 11:39 am
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I see where you’re coming from, but if “jurisdiction” means the same as “in the United States” then the 14th amendment is repetitive because it says born in the United States and subject to U.S. jurisdiction.

NOT NECESSARILY

A US Borned Citizen of US citizens can renounce his US citizenship and move to a foreign country.  In that scenerio the US wouldn’t really have jurisdiction over him/her.

rob say,

I would say it is a statement about the person in question; whether they have accepted the jurisdiction of the United States, and in the case of someone here illegally, they obviously have not.

I doubt any American crimminal would accept jurisdiction of the United States over him, if given a choice,

Jurisdiction
1 : the power, right, or authority to interpret and apply the law
2 a : the authority of a sovereign power to govern or legislate b : the power or right to exercise authority : CONTROL
3 : the limits or territory within which authority may be exercised

crimminals DO NOT determine jurisdiction, OUR LAWS DETERMINE JURISDICTION.

plus this is about the illegal parent, and we are over looking the following: ..

The US BORNED baby of an undocumented HAS NOT VIOLATED/BROKEN ANY OF THIS COUNTRY’S LAW.

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 11:59 am
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APPERANTLY the Civil Rights Act of 1866 also give citezenship, ..

The main reason behind the jurisdiction requirement is probably the fact that tribes are ‘their own country,’ ..

i.e. ”the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities.” lol

aNONOMISLY on August 29, 2006 at 03:03 pm
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