Mike, I think maybe you have absolutely no clue as to how things work in the Senate.

Normally I defer to your knowledge of American government but the fact that I can read the official description of what is being voted upon and that your description of what is being voted upon does not match the official description doesn’t permit me to yield.

But either way, the headline “Republicans Block Debate On Iraq Resolution” is patently misleading.

I recognise that our difference is partly one of semantics but to suggest that not allowing a resolution to come to the floor for debate is not “blocking” that debate is unusually obtuse or misleading on your part.

The crux of our disagreement is not the meaning of “cloture” or other Senate rules but is in fact the question that came up for the vote. That is why this statement is nonsense:

Meaning, in this instance, that the Democrats could then vote against any more debate and rush this resolution to a final vote.

The Democrats could attempt to invoke cloture when the Resolution comes to the floor but I imagine they would run into the same tactic that they faced in the procedural motion.

The Democrats were trying to rush this Iraq resolution through the Senate with little debate. The Republicans stopped it. They didn’t “block debate,” they blocked it from getting passed with little debate.

Parliamentary procedures can be so arcane that it’s often hard to tell what’s being voted on. My understanding is that sixty votes were required to bring the Warner Resolution to the floor for debate without the risk of a filibuster shutting down debate on it permanently. If this is the case then the claim that Republicans blocked debate is true and Rob’s interpretation is not so true.

I stand to be corrected of course.

If Reid had voted with his party, it would have been 50-46, not 48-48. Other way around….

And congrats to the GOP for standig their ground on this one. They aren’t going to let the Dems pass this resolution unless they also vote on “cutting off funding” and “supporting the troops” in Iraq. Good job, GOP.

Still think it’s crap that this is being spun as Republicans cutting off debate.

Rob,

If it were not for this ludicrous spin, someone just might notice that the Republicans are (finally) doing to the Democrats, what the Demos did so successfully to the Republicans when the GOP was in the majority.

Not a single Democrat voted against cloture. Well, Harry Reid did, but that’s a procedural step that allows him to bring up the legislation again at a later date. That’s why we used to always see Bill Frist voting with Democrats every time the Dems defeated legislation in the the old Republican Senate

KOS

There’s some rules in the Senate related to reintroducing a bill. It’s easier to do so IF you voted against it the prior time.

I recall that Frist did the same thing a couple of times, change his vote at the last second for parliamentary reasons.

Mike, the Congressional Record itself indicates that this was a vote to end debate. Go look at my latest post on the front page.

Once cloture has been invoked debate is limited, coming only with agreement of those in the Senate. Given that the Dems hold the majority, the debate could be as limited as they want it to be.

The Republicans voted not to invoke cloture and thus keep unlimited debate open.

I think you’re being willfully obtuse here. I cannot fathom how you can’t see this.

Mike, what was being voted on was cloture. Cloture ends debate and sends the bill for an up or down vote.

From the definition of cloture:

Cloture is a procedure used by the United States Senate to end a filibuster or prolonged debate and reach a final vote on the pending motion, bill, amendment, or conference report. Unlimited debate in the Senate was curtailed by the addition of cloture under Senate Rule 22, adopted in 1917. To invoke cloture, a senator must file a motion signed by at least sixteen members. Once the cloture motion is filed, only germane amendments may be offered and may only be introduced by the next legislative day.

The Senate later modified the cloture procedure to reduce the number of votes required to end debate for most matters to 60 percent of the entire Senate. Post-cloture debate was reduced to 100 hours in 1979 and then to 30 hours in 1986. Proposed changes to Senate rules still require a two-thirds supermajority vote to invoke cloture. In The period since 1975, more than 300 cloture votes have been taken, with debate successfully ended 40 percent of the time. Use of the cloture procedure reduces the effectiveness of impassioned minority viewpoints, allowing a supermajority to move forward on controversial agenda items.

The only point you could possibly make to support the accuracy of the headline is that there is some limited debate after the cloture vote, but the only reason the Dems have to invoke cloture is to push the resolution through with as little debate as possible.

Even accepting that point, the headline grossly mischaracterizes the situation.

You stand corrected, right Mike?

Whatever Mike. Clearly you’ll believe what you want.

You can lead a horse to water, and all that.

I’d look at Spaghetti’s point. Claiming that the Republican killing of the cloture vote prevented debate on the resolution is just plain dishonest.