Say Anything Blog

What’s changed is that it takes fewer people to do that farming

Didn’t they put a stop to that by outlawing economies of scale in agriculture?

No Free Lunch

If only we could bring back the days of outhouses, then North Dakota would be strong again.

Didn’t they put a stop to that by outlawing economies of scale in agriculture?

Great idea Kevin, I’d like the US to be a net food importer and going back to the old ways will be the best way to do that.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

wait a minute, aren’t you guys the all free enterprise all the time guys?  Yes I am smiling.  But, my tax ox is being gored here.  I don’t want another dime to goto support Agriculture at any level period.

Cut it off. Stop.

Guess what, you will see the reversal of the dire situation.  The Larger Farms and economies of scale Rob talks about will disappear along with the end of Government subsidies and guarantees.

According to government studies the same amount of land is being farmed in North Dakota today as there was 30 years ago.

I’m guessing CRP is counted in Farming.  IT’s NOT FARMING, IT’s WELFARE

When agriculture has to become a free enterprise business once more you will be shocked to see the small towns revitalize.  The problem is socialism. North Dakota farmers pretend to farm and the Government pretends to pay them to do so.  Just like in the old soviet socialist republics. 

That goes double for the Faux Fuel Ethanol.

Let’s have some of that libertarian small government zeal released in North Dakota.  I would hope that Mr Cunningham in competing with Hoeven would see it this way and begin to tell the truth.

Agriculture is welfare in North Dakota. 

Reversing this curse is not going backwards, it’s going forward once again.  Continuing the old suck uncle sam dry politics of subsidy agriculture is going backwards and killing North Dakota agriculture and small towns that used to support it.

Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this is their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce.       
And they go down fighting.

Gene: I get your point, but think you are simply wrong.  Farming is especially responsive to capital input, and large scale farming will always be more profitable than boutique farming.  I think the farm subsidies are intended to support the romantic ideal of the small farmer, but like almost all govt manipulation, it has had the opposite effect.  Removing subsidies will completely remove the small farm, while hardly affecting the large scale farming at all.  We might pay more for our produce, but will pay less in taxes, unless the govt greedheads just spend it somewhere else.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Robert108:

Farming is especially responsive to capital input, and large scale farming will always be more profitable than boutique farming. 

You have a reference to that?

General economic knowledge.  I’m not opposed to small farms; I just don’t think they can be competetive, except for specialty crops.  There will always be small markets for truly organic fruits and vegetables, but it will have to be carefully regulated.  I’m not suggesting that we need any regulation at all, just that “organic” has no specific meaning.  If you want to get a higher price for your organic stuff, it will probably have to have some sort of dependable certification that means something.
I have done some small scale farming in my life, and enjoyed it very much.  I think small farmers can produce very good stuff, if they work at it, but the immense quantities of food our nation requires makes it what I called a “boutique” operation, unfortunately.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

OK, then this is your learned opinion.

I have a different one, based partly on my experience with the inefficiencies inherent in large bureaucratic organizations.  Small technology development companies generally can kick large corporate America’s ass (which is why the large corps pay them to do the development for them).

In my memory, small farmers, even with the subsidies that large corporations get to grow crops, still acre-per-acre outgrow the big guys.  Perhaps Gene or somebody a bit closer to the numbers could dig this up for a comparison.

Carrick, around here a farmer can farm an unbelievable amount of land with only a few hired men.  I think my brother in law as farming 5000 acres with one hired man.

That just isn’t going to take the numbers we used to have on the farm.

I don’t see cutting the farm programs will encourage small farms.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Whistler, by “small farms” I meant owner operated.  Agriculture is one of those professions that works better with hands-on supervision. 

My comments had more to do with how subsidies are allowing inefficient farming practices, mostly practiced by large corporate farms, to stay in business.  Regardless of where one is on the big-versus-small business argument, that doesn’t just smack of socialism, it is socialism.

That’s a great point, Carrick.  Ag subsidies do a great deal to kill small-time farming.

But even without subsidies I still think we’d be seeing these smaller communities emptying into the larger communities.  It’s a trend that I don’t think anything will stop.

Even if subsidies weren’t involved, I think we’d still have people whining about the “death” of rural North Dakota.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Rob,

Even if subsidies weren’t involved, I think we’d still have people whining about the “death” of rural North Dakota.

OH, lets try it and see what happens.

Many years ago New Zealand got rid of all farm subsidies and today small towns and villages are resurging.  So, despite your Economic atheism, lets try it.

Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this is their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce.       
And they go down fighting.

If only we could bring back the days of outhouses, then North Dakota would be strong again.

*giggle*

Greetings - I hope a newcomer is welcome in the conversation. I read the post and the comments and just wanted to point out one thing and ask a question or two, if I could:

My comments had more to do with how subsidies are allowing inefficient farming practices, mostly practiced by large corporate farms, to stay in business.

I thought corporate farming was against ND law. Am I wrong?

Also - please tell me where the inefficient farming practices are in larger farms. I’d like to know as my husband farms about 5000 acres. If there is a way to eliminate inefficient methods, we are all for it.

please tell me where the inefficient farming practices are in larger farms.

It’s those short hours and three day weekends.

Plus I heard you guys only really work 7 months a year.

*sarcasm*

The truth is that the pricing situation in farming led to incredibly efficient farming operations just to survive. 

Maybe this $9 wheat and $5 corn will change that, but I doubt anytime soon.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Northern Girl:

Also - please tell me where the inefficient farming practices are in larger farms. I’d like to know as my husband farms about 5000 acres. If there is a way to eliminate inefficient methods, we are all for it.

I was really referring to owner operated versus corporate owned.  Sorry for the confusion.  I suppose “small farms” is a misnomer today.

Can’t really comment about ND in particular, but I do know for instance that four corporations control something like 90% of the beef production in the country.  Now that’s big farming!

Carrick: It is a fact that farm subsidies were originally created to “save” the existence of the individual farmer.  It hasn’t worked, and you might ask yourself why.  It just might be that large scale agriculture is more suited to supply the demand in this country.  For the record, I don’t buy into the hatred of corporations that is so common on this blog.  They are businesses, and still must compete in the market.  They have advantages and disadvantages(some of which you have already pointed out), but overall, seem to be more competitive.  All subsidies should go, IMO.  Everyone should compete in a market that is free of govt meddling.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I do know for instance that four corporations control something like 90% of the beef production in the country.

BUT, those four are still buying calves from small time operators who can do the cow/calf thing more efficient than the feed lots.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Robert108, I attribute it more to the problem the deep pockets have more influence on legislature than small ones.

Take the “reforms” to Florida law after Hurricane Andrew… most of the building irregularities were made by contracting firms.  But the law as finally written actually benefited them and virtually locked out private home builders.

I’ve no problem with removing subsidies, which as I pointed out, favor the inefficient farming practices used by large corporate concerns.  If this means they are forced to operate more efficiently but still stay in business, well I can live with that.

As to “hatred of corporations”.  What in the world are you talking about?  Like you, I’m merely in favor of less government meddling, let the chips fall as they may.

As to “hatred of corporations”.

I wasn’t addressing you specifically.

I would still like the answer to the question of how something that was originally designed to preserve “family farms”(farm subsidies) compete against large farms has become so beneficial to large corporate farms.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

BTW, I don’t consider the “disaster relief” political game to be an accurate comparison.  Your image of business bribing govt is funny to me; what I see is govt bribing business, both through corporate charters and regulation that is designed to benefit companies in certain jurisdictions.  Each Senator and Representative wants his or her own district to look good, economically, so that they can claim credit when it comes to election time.  It’s the job of business to go where it gets the best deal.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Robert108:

our image of business bribing govt is funny to me

Who said anything about bribing government?  People with money have power, which they exert through lobby groups.

Private citizens give money to lobbying groups to get their interests represented in a way otherwise not possible for them.  You failed to mention that fact.
I still maintain that it’s the govt that bribes businesses who will bend over for them, with the promise of an advantage in the market.  True corruption.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!