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Saturday, June 30, 2007

“Red State Welfare” Keeping Farms Poor

This from the New York Times:

Drive across the empty reaches of the Great Plains, from the lost promise of Valentine, Neb., to the shadowless side roads into Sunray, Tex., and what you see is a land that has lost its purpose. Many of the towns set in this infinity of flat have a listless look, with shuttered main streets and schools given over to the grave.

With upwards of $20 billion a year in federal payments going to a select few in farm country, you would think that these troubled counties would have a more vigorous pulse. After all, corn and wheat prices are at record highs, and big manses here and there, with Hummers in limestone driveways, indicate that somebody is doing well.

It would be one thing if the despair and disparity in farm country were the sole products of history, if time had simply passed it all by. But it comes as a jolt to realize that government policy is much to blame.

The Red State welfare program, also known as the farm subsidy system, showers most of its tax dollars on the richest farmers, often people with no dirt under their fingernails, at the expense of everybody else trying to work the land. Like urban welfare before reform, agriculture subsidies reward those who can work the system — farming the government, as they call it around the diner.

Read the whole thing, but here’s the summary: Subsidies don’t work, because government is terribly inefficient at distributing what is needed to whom at the right time.  And it’ll always be like that.

We really should take a cue from New Zealand, which dropped all of it’s farm subsidies (eschewing the dire warnings of populist farm lobbyists) to great success.  That country is actually seeing growth in it’s agriculture industry with more people getting involved with farming and making more money at it.

That’s because while the government is really bad at trying to supply people with what they need when they need it, the free market is really good at it.

At least for those willing to work to earn an honest dollar, that is.

Comments

Rob, you might be interested in this take from the Heritage Foundation “How Farm Subsidies Became America’s Largest Corporate Welfare Program.” A bit dated, but still apropos.

Carrick on July 1, 2007 at 07:28 am

Carrick: I do have a problem with the term “corporate welfare”, which would imply that those corps that receive some govt largesse are wholly dependent on it, and that’s certainly not the case.
I also find it interesting that lefties think welfare for their favored groups is wonderful(and an obligation taxpayers should support), but that which they label “corporate welfare” is evil, and should be abolished.  Interesting double standard.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 07:54 am

Farm welfare not surprisingly has failed to help the lot of the small to medium sized farms as it was intended to.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on July 1, 2007 at 08:06 am

TW: So, once again, govt interference in business in order to achieve a social outcome has failed.  It has resulted in both economic and social damage. When will they learn?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 08:44 am

"They” (government “do-gooders” will never learn.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on July 1, 2007 at 08:54 am

Robert108:

I do have a problem with the term “corporate welfare”, which would imply that those corps that receive some govt largesse are wholly dependent on it, and that’s certainly not the case.

Since when does the word “welfare” imply total dependence?  Plenty examples of welfare out there that are partial, not total, assistance…

I also find it interesting that lefties think welfare for their favored groups is wonderful(and an obligation taxpayers should support), but that which they label “corporate welfare” is evil, and should be abolished.

I’m confused, are you saying that the Heritiage Foundation is a “leftie organization?”

Carrick on July 1, 2007 at 09:00 am

Plenty examples of welfare out there that are partial, not total, assistance…

In this case support payments are only part of a farmers income.  On the other hand if a farmer were to NOT participate he would be out of business because most farmers would be losing without it.

On the other hand without the program at all the market would adjust and good farmers would stay in business.  It’d likely cost us less money too.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on July 1, 2007 at 09:03 am

failed to help the lot of the small to medium sized farms as it was intended to.

You bought the sizzle, not the steak agribusiness was comped.
You want fries with that?

WOOF on July 1, 2007 at 09:06 am

I’m confused, are you saying that the Heritiage Foundation is a “leftie organization?”

No. Where did you get that?  Don’t lefties in general support welfare for the “poor and downtrodden"(those groups whose votes they want to buy)?  I know the Heritage Foundation isn’t leftie, and never said anything that would indicate otherwise.  I think the term “corporate welfare” is factually incorrect, and said so.  I’m puzzled.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 09:08 am

On the other hand without the program at all the market would adjust and good farmers would stay in business.  It’d likely cost us less money too.

Not only would it not cost us anything, but we would benefit economically.  Subsidizing inefficiency only helps those who control the subsidies.
I wonder if the present “we need the invaders to harvest our crops” meme is a result of subsidizing inefficiency in the farming sector, which depresses capital innovation.  The subsidies have been going on for generations.  Without them, we might be much more advanced in our farming technology, thus eliminating the need for the invaders to perform what is essentially slave labor.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 09:13 am

Robert, I was saying that the market would adjust by raising the price of farm commodities, but that it would still cost us less in total because the government imposes such a large overhead.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on July 1, 2007 at 09:27 am

Robert, I was saying that the market would adjust by raising the price of farm commodities, but that it would still cost us less in total because the
government imposes such a large overhead.

That’s the short term analysis, and mine was more long term.  Making farming more efficient will ultimately result in lower priced farm commondities.  After all, they don’t call them “farm price supports” for nothing, do they? Like most socialized efforts, the cost increase isn’t honest and direct, but is spread out over the entire population, and masquerades under another name.  Creative accounting.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 09:31 am

Well you may be right that the government programs are stiffling innovation. 

As you said I’m thinking short term, and I’ll explain my reasoning although you likely understand it better than I.

The market price of a commodity (wheat) is $5.00 a bushel.  The government decides to subsidize wheat by a $1.00.  In short order the market price will be closer to $4 a bushel than $5.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on July 1, 2007 at 09:34 am

TW:  One question: Where does the govt get the money to pay the price support?  Even though the “price” of the bushel of wheat appears to be lower, we simply paid the extra dollar(plus the infrastructure cost to collect and distribute it) in another form.  Thus, the true cost is hidden from direct view.  Like I said, creative accounting.  It’s like Clinton’s “budget surplus”.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 09:51 am

Robert108:

No. Where did you get that?  Don’t lefties in general support welfare for the “poor and downtrodden"(those groups whose votes they want to buy)? [...] I think the term “corporate welfare” is factually incorrect, and said so.  I’m puzzled.

Sorry.  I thought you were addressing the link said, which is from the Heritage Foundation.  Obviously I agree with your general statement about lefties.

Carrick on July 1, 2007 at 01:01 pm
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I think Robert’s problem with “corporate welfare” is that it’s often used by the left to describe tax cuts or other business-friendly regulations.

Obviously, empowering business and/or letting those businesses keep more of their profits is hardly “welfare.”

I think the farm subsidy programs, which see billions get sent to Big Ag companies, is a sort of welfare though.  So the term is correct when applied to farm subsidies.

As far as welfare and dependence, I think one need not get all of their income from subsidies or welfare in order to be dependent upon them.

If I got 75% of my income from working and 25% of my income from welfare I’d still be in pretty rough shape is I lost that 25%.  Maybe I could make it, maybe not, but it’d hurt.  Thus, I’m sort of dependent no?

Same with business.  If a farmer has a business model whereby he counts on so many dollars of subsidies a year that business model is going to fail when those subsidies are ended.  Now the farmer may not be getting all of his income from the subsidies, but the way he’s doing business is dependent upon them.

Which isn’t to suggest that farmers would be incapable of changing the way they do business to be reliant upon themselves instead of the government.  Clearly that can happen, and has happened in other places in the world.

Given that farmers would ultimate be better off without subsidies, I think it should happen here.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on July 1, 2007 at 01:11 pm

I think Robert’s problem with “corporate welfare” is that it’s often used by the left to describe tax cuts or other business-friendly regulations.

Thanks, Rob, it’s that and much more.  It’s part of the leftie anti-business agenda, which conflates “business” with “corporations”.  This comes from the teachings of Marx, who considered “capitalists” to be a separate class from “workers”, and who regarded the workers as the good guys, with the “capitalists” being the bad guys.  I still find it totally hypocritical that the people who think some people are “entitled” to welfare use it as an epithet when it’s assigned to corporations.  Obviously, corporations are not one of their favored groups.  It’s a lot like them accusing Republicans of being gay, or Ann Coulter of being a tranny.  Those are favored groups, unless you are Conservative or Republican.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 01:18 pm

Carrick: While I think the Heritage Foundation was incorrect in using the term “corporate welfare”, that is not a broadbased criticism of them.  It’s that specific thing.  My point is that such propaganda has become so pervasive that it’s parroted without thinking.  It has become common parlance, no matter how false it is.  It’s a lot like “homophobia”, which implies that dislike of the homosexual political agenda is some sort of mental illness.  We are losing the propaganda war.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 01:25 pm
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But I think we can both agree, Robert, that subsidies or welfare for businesses and citizens is a generally bad idea.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on July 1, 2007 at 01:25 pm

I see no problem objecting to the use of loaded words such as “corporate welfare”.  I agree with you on that…

Carrick on July 1, 2007 at 01:38 pm

But I think we can both agree, Robert, that subsidies or welfare for businesses and citizens is a generally bad idea.

Absolutely.  It’s detrimental to our economy, which makes us all wealthier.  Not a good idea at all.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 04:32 pm
Avatar for Ken

The manufacturing guys over at Evolving Excellence just posted an interesting viewpoint on the “excess of corn"… tieing it to “an obesity of waste,” whether that’s a waste of overproduction or overconsumption.  Ethanol or food.

http://www.evolvingexcellence.com/blog/2007/07/the-obesity-epi.html

Ken

Ken on July 2, 2007 at 07:59 pm
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