Rob any force used when a person is handcuffed is considered unnecessary force.

Just because you say it doesn’t make it so. We’ve had a police chief already comment on this matter and I’ll take his word 1000 times over yours.

Perhaps the old ways are best…

A lot less hooting and hollering with a properly applied Billy club or blackjack.

The tape as is should be sufficient grounds for a resisting arrest charge at the very least, and should serve as a warning; contempt of cop is painful.

Out Here
Rodney Graves
rodney.g.graves@gmail.com

It’s good to know that tax dollars are paying for cops to bully assholes…

No they were merely helping him leave the building where he wasn’t allowed.

Rob, could you please link us to the particular law you’re referencing that says that citizens may be tasered for sitting down in a public library?

He didn’t have a right to be there, he wouldn’t leave.

He resisted arrest and got tazzed.

Too bad there’s nothing the little turd could have done to avoid the experience.

Never been anywhere without an ID, huh? Don’t remember how much work it was to gather up a bunch of research material for a paper? Or even just to get all the things laid out one needs to do homework? Sounds like he forgot his ID, genuinely tried to find it, then reluctantly AGREED to leave by packing up and moving toward the door. Someone freaked out and it is the police’s duty to be the most professional and calm and rational in any situation and they simply blew it. Anything he did in fear or panic after that point is irelevant to the case.

If I am somewhere without my ID I realize I’m in the wrong and leave as soon as possible.

No issue and no morons second guessing the cops.

Heh, his complaining about the Patriot Act is the most uniquely pathetic thing I have heard anyone say in a long long time.

Tazers should only be used as if you were using your sidearm IMHO.

I think you’re wrong there. I think the Tazer is a compliment to the nightstick (PR-24).

Only when confronted with potential lethal force should a police officer resort to his sidearm. In that case the tazer should be left in it’s holster.

I think to get a tour of his department you have to knock on the door between Hot Topic and Payless Shoes.

What part of ‘please leave’ did the kid not understand when the cops first confronted him?

He deserved what he got.

What personal attack. You mean the one where you irrationally accused us of being racists because the little turd turned out to be a Muslim?

Why did you have to lie about being a police officer?

I also believe that you would be singing a different tune if the suspect was a 21 year old student named Joanne Woodard.

Ellinas you’re an idiot. For most of this discussion we did NOT know that this guy was a muslim. Our views haven’t changed.

I still don’t believe that you are anything like a cop. You don’t talk like one, never have. I’d maybe believe you were a security guard in a shopping mall.

Yep, you’re a cop because you say so.

I don’t understand how you could constue this video against anybody since the video itself is pretty much worthless most of it. You can HEAR what’s going on, but you can’t really see anything and without being able to see what’s going on you don’t get all the information.

I’ve never heard “stand up or you’re gonna get tazed”, and it does sound a bit odd. But that alone I dont’ think constitutes police brutality. Maybe improper tazer training. Tazers should only be used as if you were using your sidearm IMHO.

Thanks for you valuable input Pilgrim. As you know I’m not automatically on the cops side in cases like this, but it’s obvious from the audio record that the cops did what they had to do.

No, I was referring to what another blogger said, and now you too display the same lack of basic courtesy. I just find it to be in very poor taste to say that about someone you’ve just watched suffering that much pain and humiliation. I don’t believe he deserved it, but even if he was being cheeky he ought, according to common decency, to be spoken of a little more kindly. I don’t think that’s juvenile.

Again you totally mistaken how the little turd got to the point of being tazzed.

The police put their hands on him to guide him out of the building. That’s appropriate when he’s not cooperating fully.

At that point the little turd got very aggressive.

The “Jeez, why not shoot him in the head comment” was an illustration of how much you’re going overboard with a situation which posed no real danger. You are pronouncing the guy guilty without any proof – and I notice you keep using the term which I find so unpleasant, so thank you for showing once again your courtesy and decency.

I think shocked provides the most plausible explanation. It sounds pretty authoritarian to me. In a library, too. Dearie me.

Calm Down: Please read the story. This was the second set of “cops” that confronted them. The first was a community resource cop or something like that.

The Community cop asked him for his ID and asked him to leave. He was STILL around by the time these guys came in for backup.

At this point the police were ok to escort him out. Since he wasn’t going they grabbed his arm to escort him out. (That’s pretty clear from the audio on the tape.)

The guy freaks out and refuses to cooperate.

I’ve pissed Pilgrim off before because I don’t always side with the cops. But in this case they did the proper thing.

What does fighting with the police in Ireland get you Calm?

Calling a young guy like that “a little turd” is even worse.

Sounds like a Kindergartener problem to me.

The fact is from the audio he was acting like a little turd.

For the crime of possible “dawdling” and maybe “swinging his arms”.

No he was dawdling so the Police put their hands on him. Then he started to resist them and the cops responded in my opinion properly.

Surely two armed cops aren’t scared of a few spotty kids?

This shows just how ignorant you are. The last thing they need is someone to jump on their back while they are manhandling the little turd out of the library. The last thing they need is someone to be grabbing at their sidearm while they’re wrestling this turd.

Jeez, why not just shoot him in the head?

Clearly you’ve lost all grip on reality here.

This isn’t Judge Dredd. Police don’t have the authority to dole out punishment, as these cops oviously did. He was already cuffed, on the ground, and not a threat. They should lose their jobs for using the taser again just because he wouldn’t stand up.

Calm Down, Sparkie, and all the rest who don’t have a clue what you’re talking about,

A tazer is a valuable tool of police work. All of you lefties out there shriek about the use of the tazer, so let me ask you this…..

Was it better in the day when an officer had to physically fight someone to get compliance? Or when we had to use a club (nightstick, PR-24, ASP, whatever – the function is the same) to get compliance? Why is it better to physically fight someone – risking injury to yourself and the suspect – than to Taze him? The tazer does no harm. It just locks up the muscles making resistance impossible. It hurts like hell – I know, I had to get shot with one to be certified with it.

Tazers can be life savers as well. Here are two great examples that I saw myself:

A woman stood in the doorway of her residence with a cocked .38 to her head. She said she was going to kill any officer who approached her, and that she was going to kill herself because her husband had been unfaithful. One of our officers talked to her while another got withing twenty feet with a Tazer (about max range). The officer talking to her then said “Is that your husband behind you?” She turned to look, taking the .38 from her head for a split second. The Tazer hit her, dropping her to the griound. Officers rushed in, got the gun, and restrained her. Nobody was hurt.

A guy had a molotov cocktail in his hand and a large hunting knife in the other. He had just burned one car. It was his intention to commit “suicide by police.” He kept charging officers yelling, “Shhot me! Shoot me,” and slashing with the knife. A few short years ago we would have had to shoot that guy. A tazer put him down. Nobody was hurt.

Just last week a very large guy hit one of my officers in the mouth when the officer tried to talk to him on a suspicious persons call. A tazer put him down and we were able to handcuff and shackle him without he or my opfficers getting hurt.

A Tazer is a compliance device. It hurts. BVut it does no harm except in the rare cases where the suspect is coked out or has a heart condition to begin with.

For all of you who mourn for the old days when cops just “busted heads” and hauled peole off – well we got sued a lot in those days for just that. And a lot more cops got hurt. So did suspects. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt AND the hospital records to prove it.

I for one like the tool. I saves a lot of grief. Message to that idiot kid and his ilk…don’t want to get tazered? Comply. When they tell you to stop resisting….STOP. Simple.

By the way…the tazer is lited well below deadly force on the force continuum. Right after about the third voice command to cooperate. We don’t want to get hurt and we don’t want to hurt you so….cooperate.

TASER® will not be used:
1. when the officer knows a subject has come in contact with flammable liquids or is in a flammable atmosphere;
2. when the subject is in a position where a fall may cause substantial injury or death;
3. punitively for purposes of coercion, or in an unjustified manner;
4. when a prisoner is handcuffed;
5. to escort or jab individuals;
6. to awaken unconscious or intoxicated individuals; or
7. when the subject is visibly pregnant, unless deadly force is the only other option.

I did a key word search on your list. I didn’t see where those rules were applied anywhere in California. Of course IF you were a cop you would have provided the document number.

So ellinas you like playing cops? At least you’re not playing spaceman anymore.

Why? Did they miss or something?

HAHA! No! That’s not what I meant.. I meant that your rent-a-cop security guard types don’t go through enough training as part of their job to use weapons such as tazers. Not anywhere I’ve ever heard of anyway. These cops were not security guards though, they are a full-on police force just like any city PD

These cops obviously have tiny little penises and they are trying to compensate for it. If you ask my opinion, we should only recruit cops with big penises so their ‘complejos’ don’t interfere.

Sparkie -

Big penises = more testosterone. It would just further intimidate you left wing bed, limp wristed girly man, bed wetting types and give you something else to cry about.

Without all the facts, I can’t really condemn one side or the other. However, that being said, with the evidence that was presented, I’d agree that the use of force seemed excessive. I respect the difficult challanges and tasks that police officers must take, but I feel that they still must be held accountable when they make clearly avoidable mistakes or abuses of their authority. This is the case in many private fields, such as medicine, and should be when dealing with the police force.

I don’t think these officers deserve to be prosecuted or fired, but a suspension and extra training classes may be beneficial.

In this trial by youtube you still insult this person in an unpleasant manner, without having all the facts. It does, however, appear that he was on the ground and they zapped him, for heaven’s sake! And how unworthy to persist with your name-calling. You know nothing about him. Unpleasant, undignified and unnecessary.

Ken, I hope you don’t have people laughing at your pain and suffering.

Excuse me, but I was laughing at his stupidity, not his pain and suffering.

Rob any force used when a person is handcuffed is considered unnecessary force.

Sorry, but….bullshit. Ever had a handcuffed guy kick out the windows of your unit after you get him in the back seat? Ever been headbutted by a handcuffed guy? Ever had a handcuffed guy break and run, then fight when you catch him? What did you do when these things happened, have a chat with him? Or thump him?

Ellinas, with all due respect I suspect that, if you are a cop, you’re a desk monkey or a training geek. Any time on the street you’ve spent was a long time ago. Reality and theory are two way different things. You should know that.

Well, it depends. I think in Ireland, the cops are a more patient and reasonable! In Northern Ireland (different country, of course) I wouldn’t recommend it, though. But I don’t really know – why do you think I’m from Ireland? But the whole thing could have been avoided – that’s my impression. The cops should have been patient and not taken it personally. The guy might have been slightly annoying, I don’t know, but I don’t accept he was a threat, nor that the cops (as someone said it) put their lives in danger, as if they were very brave. I could have got him out in five minutes without raising my hand once, I promise you.

Just because you say it doesn’t make it so. We’ve had a police chief already comment on this matter and I’ll take his word 1000 times over yours.
The Whistler on November 17, 2006 at 11:57 pm
Whistler I say so because for the last 25 years I was and still am a cop.
And Whistler care to provide the name and jurisdiction of this police chief?

1) The CSO’s were doing their job asking for students’ ID.
2) The student was asked to leave because he couldn’t produce ID.
3) The student *DID NOT COMPLY*.

It is at this point that the student is GUILTY. It was his CHOICE to not comply, and he suffered the consequences.

4) The cops get called in. Supposedly he was on his way out. Sorry, but that’s too late. This sint’ a little game for teh student to decide when he will or will not leave. And if it was his real intention to leave, he would have been gone BEFORE the cops arrived. But he was eating up the attention and the rush.

I think the patriot act comment and the other remark “this god-forsaken place” tells you a lot about the mindset of this person. He was causing a scene. And he was enjoying it – until the cops did something unexpected, which caused the child to freak out.

The cops endangered their own lives. This scene could have gotten much uglier if the other kids in the library decided to make a fight of it. I really believe the cops were far too complacent about the situation.

It’s not the use of force by the cops that bothers me – it’s that they didn’t handle the situation properly, thereby risking injury to themselves and the others there.

Regardless, the blame lies totally on the student. If he would have complied as he was supposed to, none of this would have happened. Period.

It’s not surprisign that those whoa re taking the kids side won’t mention the kid’s responsibility in all of this. Nope. Just a litany of excuses for the student’s bad behavior.

It’s good to know that tax dollars are paying for cops to bully assholes…

We’ve had a police chief already comment on this matter and I’ll take his word 1000 times over yours.
The Whistler on November 17, 2006 at 11:57 pm
Whistler I am still waiting for the name and the jurisdiction of the police chief.
I did not resort to peronal attacks on this post. Both pilgrim and whistler did. Very unfortunate. I guess pilgrim did not read everything I wrote on this post.
Pilgrim if you are interested I will give you a tour of my department any day as a professional courtesy.
Whistler you don’t know what you are talking about.

He wasn’t subdued, he was still resisting.
All he had to do to end the tasering was cooperate.
Rob on November 17, 2006 at 10:52 pm
Rob any force used when a person is handcuffed is considered unnecessary force. Go to your local police station and talk with a legal affairs person. And like someone pointed out earlier you tase to subdue long enough in order to apply mechanical restraints (handcuffs) and not to force them to stand up.

Rob, could you please link us to the particular law you’re referencing that says that citizens may be tasered for sitting down in a public library?

After mechanical restraints were applied any further use of force was/is unnecessary and is illegal. It appears that the officers in question were using the taser to gain compliance with their verbal orders to get the kid to stand up. Proper procedure is to administer medical assistance by qualified medical personell after the application of force, and subsequent application of mechanical restraints. Once mechanical restraints (handcuffs) were applied and the suspect is on the ground no further force is permitted. The proper removal of the belligerant at this point was to carry him, and if he was kicking the officers additional restraints must be applied (leg irons) or plasticuffs (zip-ties). The initial use of force was necessary,appropriate and legal. The force used after the hand cuffing was unnecessary, excessive and not justified (illegal) under the circumstances.

Robert108 you are welcome. Y’all can’t have it both ways. Fact remains that he was not singled out,the cops did not know (initialy) his name, or that he was Muslim. Therefore your “A muslim guy, wearing a backpack(the London bombers had their bombs in backpacks), yells out something about being a “martyr”.” is without basis and hysterically funny. I do not fault the cops for the initial use of force, for it was legal justified and entirely appropriate.

Good post, Nomad.

Unfortunately it is full of facts. Facts are such inconvenient things to deal with. The left, CAIR, and those so quick to blame the police whenever there is a confrontation in which someone cries “My rights are being violated” will quietly go away when challenged by the truth. Facts get in the way when you’re looking for a martyr.

Your post is thorough. It will be interesting to see just how the usual suspects ignore the facts this time.

I don’t see anything wrong with the way those guys handled that fool. I’m curious as to why you do.
Pilgrim on November 18, 2006 at 11:48 am
Pilgrim with all due respect please read carefully what I have posted previously on this subject.
out of curiosity, ellinas…..what is your assignment as a police officer. Street? Admin? Training? CID? Are you taser certified? Ever used one?
Pilgrim on November 18, 2006 at 11:48 am
Pilgrim be advised that I’ve been there done that.
Like I said earlier this would not pass muster in a force review panel.

Sorry you guys I did’t realize he was muslim. I guess that makes all the difference in the world. F**k CAIR. The ease that this student drew in these officers is astounding. After the first tasering they should have hancuffed him, and if he was resisting any further, well trained and competent cops would have used additional mechanical restraints (either leg-irons or plasticuffs)and then carried him out of the library. Nomad adds nothing to the debate but hot air.

Pilgrim I did answer your question earlier by inviting you for a tour of my department as a professional courtesy. My current and past assingments are not the issue here.
You say: “The taser is a tool that forces compliance without harm.” And I wholeheartedly agree. But I add to your statement by saying that you have to handcuff the suspect. This is the first time I ever heard “Stand up or you’ll get tazed again” I would agree with you if the order was “lay down on your stomach,put your hands behind your back and don’t move or I’ll tase you again”
I also believe that you would be singing a different tune if the suspect was a 21 year old student named Joanne Woodard. Now lets apply your logic to David Koresh and his followers in Waco Texas…..see? Can you say that law enforcement in that case acted appropriately?

…I was laughing at his stupidity, not his pain and suffering.

Ken,

And now we have someone else’s stupidity to laugh at.

Ellinas,

My assignment is Patrol. I am a Lieutenant and a Shift Commander. When I’m on duty I am responsible for everything that occurs in my juridiction. EVERYTHING. From traffic control to the behavior and professionalism of the officers that work for me.

My current and past assignments are not the issue here.

I’m proud of my assignment. If you’re a cop as you say you are, why are you not forthcoming as to what yours is?

I smell a rat. Or a cop who’s spent his entire career on a desk and doesn’t have a CLUE what life on the street is like.

I also believe that you would be singing a different tune if the suspect was a 21 year old student named Joanne Woodard

When I take out the garbage I don’t care what color bag it’s in. If they resist I don’t give a fat rat’s ass WHO they are. Butcher, baker, candlestick maker, it’s all the same to me. I don’t, and never have profiled. An asshole is an asshole and are not color, religion, or sex specific. I will NOT get hurt on this job or allow the officers who work for me to get hurt if they have the ways, means, and tools to avoid that. I will also not allow them to get sued because they had to handle somebody roughly when they could have subdued them without physical violence. That’s called “vicarious liability” but I’m sure you don’t know anything about that.

I smell a rat. Well Pilgrim there is something wrong with your sense of smell.
ellinas on November 21, 2006 at 12:01 pm

I think what people are trying to say is that, since you were caught in a very obvious lie, your credibility went down the toilet.

Whistler,
Hilarious!!!!!

I still don’t believe that you are anything like a cop. You don’t talk like one, never have. I’d maybe believe you were a security guard in a shopping mall.
The Whistler on November 21, 2006 at 09:50 am

Not even a security guard in a shopping mall; perhaps at a Burger King or Mcdonald’s.

OR……..

It’s not their job to carry the little turd out. Do you know how hard it is to carry a resisting person?

First of all, it is their job to carry “the little turd” out if that’s what the situation requires. Secondly, Chad was referring to the second tasering, after the student was already on the ground and subdued.

The cops endangered their own lives. This scene could have gotten much uglier if the other kids in the library decided to make a fight of it. I really believe the cops were far too complacent about the situation.

What should they have done? Tasered the sourrounding students? Drawn their weapons, or even fired? Because I can’t really think of any other scenario that is less complacent than tasering the student after he is already on the ground and subdued.

Do the above describe you? Is this what kind of Lieutenant you are?

Nope. Never had a use of force complaint. Never will. But in answer to your question about what kind of Lieutenant I am, I am the kind that will defend his people against bullshit complaints from the likes of you. If you are a cop as you claim and a supervisor (after 25 years you should at least be a sergeant) you would understand that. But you don’t, obviously. Therefore, I smell a rat. A big fat one. And my sense of smell is very sharp.

The instances you quote (interesting that you would research this that way officer) are anomalies and a very small number compared to the numbers of times the taser is used daily in police work.

Now, get this…I don’t condone excessive force. Anyone using excessive force in my presence will answer for it and quickly.

Whoever you are, you’ve completely discredited yourself. You never did answer any of my questions. I try not to be rude to the other posters on this blog even when we vehemently disagree. It’s usually honest disgreement on an adult level.

That being said, get this: You’re full of shit, officer. What kind of Lieutenant am I? I’m the kind that ass clowns like you don’t want to work for and steer a wide path around. My conversation with you on this subject is over. Pontificate with someone else.

Pilgrim

The instances you quote (interesting that you would research this that way officer) are anomalies
That being said, get this: You’re full of shit,
Pilgrim on November 21, 2006 at 01:09 pm

LT-Interesting point about the wanna be’s reasearch….

As I have stated earlier the suspect should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
ellinas on November 21, 2006 at 12:08 pm

A police officer wouldn’t use the word “suspect” in this context ….maybe “subject” or “perp” but not suspect….that’s Kojak– Columbo type shit…

A suspect is someone law enforcement believes to be guilty, with little or no proof.

Once this punk started resisting arrest, he was no longer a “suspect.” Any cop would know that.

Then Joel you should know better. You don’t order someone to stand up and than tase them.
Also tell the whistler that he is missinformed about lucrative accounts and peace officers in California.
When is the State Police contract coming up for renegotiation? I know that as a Sargeant you don’t have bargaining rights so whatever pay raises the cops get you get. If you are located around Sacramento I would like to visit you at your work. Then we can flash badges at each other to our hearts content. After that I can give you a tour of my department.

2Hotel9 I was sworn on March of 1982 and am retiring on July 2007. I think you live in the country and have chickens. I love fresh eggs. I would not mind visting you after July so we can break bread together. But it has to be breakfast and the eggs fresh.

Joel as always you are blowing hot air.
2hotel9 I never mentioned it before because it never came up.
Whistler My youngest is going to either Harvard or Pen in the coming academic year. I never asked you for a penny to help with the tuition. As far as that $72.00 stock that gives me .50 cents divident it was but one stock that I used as an example knowing full well as to how you were going to use it for personal attacks against me again and again.
Now Robert108 how about the fresh eggs this summer, I’ll just pull my travel trailer and then I will show you my retired peace officers badge and ID.And yes Robert I ducked and dodged because of the pesonal attacks. Don’t want to give ammo to sycophants.

I am a sergeant with the California State Police-here’s my real Police badge. I did not get it online or anything like that. It’s real. I also used to work undercover with the FBI and also ran covert operations in Iraq for the CIA.

Well robert108 that is your opinion and you are entrenched. Nothing I say will convince you.
I am not full of shit, I just vacated my bowels prior to your post.
You say: “You were involved in several very heated threads on the topic of law enforcement and behavior of cops.”
I say: “I dont recall please refresh my memory.”
I still would like to pull up for some fresh eggs though.

That’s not excessive. He sould have complied. He got shocked. Tough. Read the above posts, Sparkie. You’re late to the party. ’nuff said.

Rob any force used when a person is handcuffed is considered unnecessary force.

Was he handcuffed? I don’t think that’s been established has it?

Go to your local police station and talk with a legal affairs person. And like someone pointed out earlier you tase to subdue long enough in order to apply mechanical restraints (handcuffs) and not to force them to stand up.

He wasn’t just sitting down, he was actively resisting arrest.

I really don’t see what the big deal is. He hasn’t been permanently injured. He resisted arrest, he got the taser.

Big flipping deal. I wish more of you were focusing on how this asshat acted rather than the police.

My dad, a former officer, told me that typical police procedure is to always go “one notch above” what the person you’re confronting is doing.

If he/she refuses verbal commands then you can put your hands on them.

If he she resists physically you can use a nightstick of comparable non-lethal weapon (mace, taser, etc.) to subdue him/her.

If he/she pulls a knife or other potentially deadly weapon you pull your gun.

At that point things get a little more complicated. If you’ve got the person cornered and all they have is a knife you keep them cornered with your gun until they either give up or put someone’s life at risk (like charging with the knife or whatever).

If the person pulls a gun you shoot them immediately.

I thought you guys are for small government?

We are, but allowing cops the power to protect themselves and enforce order is one of the few justified areas of government power.

But you don’t get to use the “small government” argument until you quit trying to get me to pay for your health care.

No one goes to fucking Powell at 11 o’clock to provoke anyone.

And cops don’t typically taser someone in a room full of college students who hate cops without good reason.

Stand up or you’ll get tazed again

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

You can take that to the bank.

The kids rights were clearly violated. All the right wingers here just like to see people getting hurt. They are all sitting around, replaying the vid, watching the kid jellyfish, and spooging on their keyboards… while a crucifix looks on over their shoulder.

I laughed when I heard him getting tasered. I’m not afraid to admit it.

Tasering hurts, I know (stupid high school prank, don’t ask), but it wasn’t like the dude was having his eyes gouged out. He acted like an asshole, and then he got treated like one.

He was leaving when they put their hands on him. It was unnessary then. These cops obviously have tiny little penises and they are trying to compensate for it. If you ask my opinion, we should only recruit cops with big penises so their ‘complejos’ don’t interfere.

And you’d also be the first to complain if some non-student nut got into the library and raped a girl back in the stacks or assaulted someone because security was too lax.

I thought he was using a computer and not raping anyone.
Hey, when these cops get in trouble you guys will have been wrong. I understand some people might have family in the police force, but that doesnt obligate you to stick up for shitty cops.

I like the police personally. Whenever they have a chance to put me away they get carried away and violate my rights. Then when I go to court I represent myself and crush them. There’s nothing like the look on a troopers face when a degenerate like me walks out a free man because the trooper is a rights abusing tard. God bless 8th grade educations.

If i pay expensive tuition for acces to computers i would use them.

And you’d also be the first to complain if some non-student nut got into the library and raped a girl back in the stacks or assaulted someone because security was too lax.

know that someone else also mentioned this as I had trouble finding the same info elsewhere. This was the first place that told me the answer. Thanks.