Say Anything Blog

I don’t think been pro-life and been pro-choice are self-exclusive; ..you can be both.

She is confusing words to be kind.  Most people know what pro-life means.  It means that we will not condone murdering babies.  Period.  Pro-choice means that a pregnant woman can murder her unborn child.  He husband or boyfriend can not, but she can.  That is a hypocritical position and not supported by a majority of Americans.

Communism is evil

Well put, Chief!…

Pro Choice is letting individuals choose their course and respecting the choices of others. A lot of people who are Pro Choice; choose Life.  I Choose Life and I respect choices of others even if they don’t agree with mine.

Outlawing abortions will not end them.  Instead it will put women in more dangerous scenarios, and with more serious health consequences, including death.

Pro Choice, is not Pro abortion.  We want abortions to accessible, and RARE.

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

I agree with you Troy.  However since there’s one other life involved we should delay action until that person is of legal age.

At that time we can ask him if he wishes to be aborted.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Troy_Pineri insults the intelligence of those who think, Pro Choice is letting individuals choose their course and respecting the choices of others.

Where does the dead baby come in? Where is the “respect” in killing it?

Outlawing abortions will not end them.

And outlawing stealing will not end the practice.

Would you like to go ‘round and ‘round one more time?

Instead it will put women in more dangerous scenarios, and with more serious health consequences, including death.

No. Those women place themselves in more dangerous situations. Just because they may place themselves in danger does not mean that we should legalize the practice.

Pro Choice, is not Pro abortion.

Sure it is.

We want abortions to accessible, and RARE.

Sure you do. 44 million later and you say this with a straight face? Spare me.

Pro Choice is letting individuals choose their course and respecting the choices of others. A lot of people who are Pro Choice; choose Life.

Troy, you’re misunderstanding the pro-life opposition to abortion.  For us it’s not about denying choices, it’s about not killing.  We believe that life begins at conception.  If you believe that (and only the willfully ignorant don’t), then there can’t be a choice.  Because murder is not a valid choice.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Pro Choice is letting individuals choose their course and respecting the choices of others.

“Pro-choice” is leftiespeak for unrestricted abortion on demand.  Get real.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

I agree with you Troy.  However since there’s one other life involved we should delay action until that person is of legal age.

At that time we can ask him if he wishes to be aborted.

HAHA!  Great....

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

HAHA!  Great....

Thanks, I ah, take back what I said about your singing.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

It must be nice to have the moral high ground and pass judgement on others who have to make a tough choice; and itstead of helping you are there to condemn them.  Wow that sounds like the actions of Jesus.

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

Well we never told someone that it was ok to murder a defenseless innocent baby.

Those poor confused mothers listening to the likes of you.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

I don’t proselytize my beliefs, and I don’t impede on the beliefs of others

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

Troy_Pineri said, It must be nice to have the moral high ground and pass judgement on others who have to make a tough choice...

You’re right. It is nice to know that I am on the high moral ground when I tell others that abortion is unjust and unwarrented. It’s not even a hard one to see.

...and itstead of helping you are there to condemn them.

Don’t act like you know me.

Wow that sounds like the actions of Jesus.

Here’s a thought: who cares what Jesus would do. This agnostic gives not a shit.

I don’t proselytize my beliefs...

If you consider a discussion as “proselytizing”, sure you do.

...and I don’t impede on the beliefs of others...

You just advocate for their death.

You don’t have the upper hand in this one Troy.

As part of the interview, Pelosi put forth the lame, bumpersticker philosophy: “If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one.”

Morally, this stands with, “If you don’t believe in slavery, don’t own one!”

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

As part of the interview, Pelosi put forth the lame, bumpersticker philosophy: “If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one.”

Morally, this stands with, “If you don’t believe in slavery, don’t own one!”

Wow, if I could get the latter bumper sticker, I would almost certainly put it on my car right next to one that says the former… What a great exposure of the morally bankrupt idea that abortion is the decsion of one person and does not effect another human being…

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Troy, no one is attempting to make abortion illegal, just to stop funding it with tax money. Nice strawman though, you played that talking point just right.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Isn’t the Pope Catholic? He tells people how to live their lives everyday!

Isn’t the Pope Catholic? He tells people how to live their lives everyday!
Kevin

The Pope doesn’t behead you or declare a jihad on your ass if you don’t listen to him, though.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

she is a traitor and will work hard for Israel.

whatever happened to america first

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jfrank.php?articleid=6157

I prefer the terms “Pro-abortion rights” and “anti-abortion rights,” as, of course, pro-lifers very rarely support life, and pro-choicers almost never support choice.

Pro-lifers don’t support life.

That’s rich, moron.  Now tell us how hamburgers = nazism again.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Pro-lifers don’t support life.

Do you have a point or are you just being...retarded?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Yes. I discussed it here. The terms “pro-life” and “pro-choice” are deceptive, while the terms “pro-abortion rights” and “anti-abortion rights” are not.

The terms are deceptive enough that someone like Anonymous can say:

I don’t think been pro-life and been pro-choice are self-exclusive; ..you can be both.

Der...I’m Davey!  I’m teh smart!  Watch as I explain how cows are sacred lives worth protecting but pain-in-the-ass three year olds should be smothered!

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob: You need to get laid. Bad.

Speak for yourself, mullet boy.

C’mon. Just for old times sake.  Tell us why burgers are immoral but infanticide is wonderful.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

LOL

Oh well.  If you’re not going to oblige I may as well go watch a movie.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Der...I’m Davey!  I’m teh smart!  Watch as I explain how cows are sacred lives worth protecting but pain-in-the-ass three year olds should be smothered!

In case there are any “newbies” browsing this thread, rest assured that Rob is lying, and that this is not even remotely close to what I believe. Also, keep his words in mind when he tells you whom to vote for next week.

In case there are any newbies reading this thread, davey advocates infanticide and euthanasia for anyone who inconveniences him, while at the same time telling us that anyone who eats meat or fish is a NAZI. And now he will screech and cry and whine that no one will give links to his stupidity. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments begin, davey.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

The Pope doesn’t behead you or declare a jihad on your ass if you don’t listen to him, though.

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

For us it’s [pro-life] not about denying choices, it’s about not killing.

Yeah, same, that’s why I don’t eat meat. Maybe I’m pro-life, but I am in favor of democracy, so I must be pro-choice. Aargh, the conflict!

I prefer the terms “Pro-abortion rights” and “anti-abortion rights,” as, of course, pro-lifers very rarely support life, and pro-choicers almost never support choice.--Dave_Comet

Hmmm, maybe this guy is correct.

It’s a well know scientific fact that appoximately 50% of all pregnancies terminate naturally (usually during the blastocyst phase). In these cases, who’s responsible for “killing” these “babies”? God?

Nah, it’s probably the woman’s fault. Off with their heads!!

It’s a well know scientific fact that appoximately 50% of all pregnancies terminate naturally

The keyword here is “naturally”.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

So ‘The Whistler’ (if that is your real name), are you saying that hacking up, with very shiny stainless steel implements, a second trimester unborn child isn’t natural?

Sheesh.

(Apparently there are other methods, like drugs that cause it to be stillborn, but that is too traumatic for the mother.)

If nature shrugs off a few undeveloped cells so easily, why should we be so hesitant to terminate them ourselves?

It’s a well know scientific fact that appoximately 50% of all pregnancies terminate naturally (usually during the blastocyst phase). In these cases, who’s responsible for “killing” these “babies”? God?

It’s also a well known fact that nature will kill something like 90% of humans. We still don’t allow murder.

Very stupid arguement…

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

If nature shrugs off a few undeveloped cells so easily, why should we be so hesitant to terminate them ourselves?

Life didn’t take with those embryo’s.  It did with the rest.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

blastocyst != human

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blastocyst

If nature shrugs off a few undeveloped cells so easily, why should we be so hesitant to terminate them ourselves?

“Nature” can give you cancer easily too.  Or a popped blood vessel in your brain.  So, since you can die easily from those things, why should we be so hesitant to terminate you ourselves?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

"Life didn’t take with those embryo’s.  It did with the rest.”

And what does that mean, exactly? The magical man in the sky maybe didn’t float down to insert a soul into that particular clump of cells? ROFL

There is no difference. Nature terminates fertilized eggs, because the time isn’t right. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t be able to do the same.

chad advocates retro-active abortion, so he must be volunteering to participate and go first. Remeber, grasp the razor firmly and go up and down the tracks, not across the road. And take a handful of asprin 1 hour prior, you will bleed out faster that way.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

"“Nature” can give you cancer easily too.  Or a popped blood vessel in your brain.  So, since you can die easily from those things, why should we be so hesitant to terminate you ourselves?”

How about - because it’s in no one’s best interest, just as carrying out unwanted pregnanicies is in no one’s best interest.

"chad advocates retro-active abortion, so he must be volunteering to participate and go first. Remeber, grasp the razor firmly and go up and down the tracks, not across the road. And take a handful of asprin 1 hour prior, you will bleed out faster that way. “

Honestly now, is that the best you’ve got? I think you can do better. I know it’s tough, but try to put a little thought into your next response.

Why, you don’t.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

How about - because it’s in no one’s best interest, just as carrying out unwanted pregnanicies is in no one’s best interest.

Murder is murder, Chad.  Life is life.  If an unborn child isn’t worth protecting, then neither are you.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Once again, no one is saying differently. Howver, early termination of pregnancy is not murder. A clump of undeveloped cells is not human.

At what point does the “clump” of cells become a human?  What arbitrary point do you use?

The child in the womb begins developing at conception, and continues to develop into full adulthood into its teens and early 20’s.  Picking a point in the gestation period and saying “before this there is no life, but after there is” is as stupid and arbitrary as setting that point between crawling and walking.

If you want to cover up your eyes to this because it’s easier to justify murder that way go right ahead, but that doesn’t make you any less wrong.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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There’s nothing arbitrary about the definition of a human at all; it’s well established.

“Humans, or human beings, are bipedal primates belonging to the mammalian species Homo sapiens (Latin for “wise man” or “knowing man") under the family Hominidae (known as the great apes).[1][2] Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection. This, combined with an erect body carriage that frees their upper limbs for manipulating objects, has allowed humans to make greater use of tools than any other species.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection.

Infants are incapable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection.  Are their lives worth protecting?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Infants are incapable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection.  Are their lives worth protecting?

Humans .... capable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection.

I think that might be a bit strong.

"Infants are incapable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection.  Are their lives worth protecting?”

Nice try, but twisting words isn’t going to work with me. It says, and I quote, “Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection”. Infants do in fact possess the brain which is required to eventually develop those skills. A clump of cells obviously does not yet possess a highly developed brain.

If I raise my kid in a dark closet until its 20 without speaking to it or anything then I am fairly sure it would have difficulty with language, introspection, and the lot. Would it not be a human?

*sigh*

Yes, the kid in that instance would be human, since it still possesses the brain required to develop those skills. No, your reply was not witty or inteligent.

Chad said, And what does that mean, exactly? The magical man in the sky maybe didn’t float down to insert a soul into that particular clump of cells? ROFL

Do you realize how ridiculous that flippant response looks to people like Rob (atheist) and me (agnostic)?

Not all of us oppose abortion because of religious beliefs. Get that through your thick skull.

Nice try, but twisting words isn’t going to work with me. It says, and I quote, “Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language and introspection”. Infants do in fact possess the brain which is required to eventually develop those skills. A clump of cells obviously does not yet possess a highly developed brain.

Actually, the unborn child has brain wave function 48 days after ovulation, and brain development is complete by 10 - 12 weeks.

So yes, that clump of cells does have a brain.

But if you want to talk about potential capability, does an unborn child not have the potential to grow into full adult from the time of conception.  Why do you arbitrarily pick the point at which the unborn child develops a brain to say “ok life begins now.”

That’s totally arbitrary.  You may as well say “there is no life before the child can walk.” It’s as dumb as that.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

So if a bonobo has a human brain in a bag, tied to a stick, and slung over its shoulder and its hitch-hiking down the road is it then a human. It meets your criteria insofar as it is a great ape, it possesses a brain capable of all the things we need it to be capable of. Furthermore it can walk upright and manipulate objects with its hands.

Rob: What distinguishes the human is free will; the ability to do whatever it chooses to do, right or wrong.  A tiger can never choose to be a stockbroker, but a human may choose to live in the wild.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

Right, robert, but what Chad is saying is that children still in the womb can be killed because they haven’t developed to the point where they can exercise that free will.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

brain development is complete by 10 - 12 weeks

incorrect. the frontal lobe and prefrontal cortex continue to grow even after birth. don’t bullshit a bullshitter.

Rob, you’re absolutly right, I see the your logic now. Everything that could potentially become a human deserves to be protected. We must immediately pass legislation to make male masturbation illegal, since tens of thousands of potential humans are killed in the process.

The comment “brain development is complete by 10 - 12 weeks” is completely false, and has been debunked over and over again - http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm

Sparkie, will the brain in the bag ever have the capacity to reason?

We must immediately pass legislation to make male masturbation illegal, since tens of thousands of potential humans are killed in the process.

If I had a dollar for every time I saw this piss poor attempt at reasoning, I’d be able to afford a few abortions.

What distinguishes the human is free will

don’t tell that to a calvinist. actually quantum physics tells us there are very few indeterminacies that actually exist and they exist on an extremely minute mireological level. the human brain has absolutely no mechanism by which it can collect any of these minute indeterminacies, let alone enough to commit a ‘free act’. the idea that slack builds up in causal chains and humans step in to take advantage of it with their decision making is bullshit. while determinism is blatantly bullshit, so is the idea that humans have any robust type of free will.

History has shown that he has. Not the term “jihad” was used but instead things like “purge”.

“Purge” refers to Stalin, one of the many socialist killers of the twentieth century.  You have to go back 500-1000 years to find this in Christian history, while the Islamofascists are doing it today.  In my original statement, I used the present tense.  Guess you missed that.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

“If I had a dollar for every time I saw this piss poor attempt at reasoning, I’d be able to afford a few abortions.”

And yet, you fail to point out said flaws.

Rob, you’re absolutly right, I see the your logic now. Everything that could potentially become a human deserves to be protected. We must immediately pass legislation to make male masturbation illegal, since tens of thousands of potential humans are killed in the process.

Life begins at conception, dummy.  If left alone sperm dies.  If let alone, a fertilized egg becomes a human.

And the brain development is not completely false, but you’ll believe what you want.  Regardless, even at conception the child has the potential to grow into a reasoning, thinking being.

Killing that potential is murder.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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oops. i meant ‘mereological level’.

Sparkie Arbuckle said, while determinism is blatantly bullshit, so is the idea that humans have any robust type of free will.

You’re an idiot.

Don’t blame me for saying that because it’s not me. I have no free will you fool.

Jackass.

Shit for brains.

Tell it to stop! I want free will.

You jagoff.

Chad drivels on, And yet, you fail to point out said flaws.

Read here fool.

One type of potential is different from another? Now who’s the one drawing arbitrary lines?

Chad: Anything with human DNA is human.  Duh.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

but you’ll believe what you want

this one aint about belief rob. like i said the frontal and prefrontal cortices continue to grow for about 9 to 10 months after birth.

HUMAN CANCER CELLS HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE TOO!!1!

The fact that humans have free will is easily demonstrated: We can make mistakes.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

The fact that humans have free will is easily demonstrated: We can make mistakes.

That doesn’t demonstrate shit Robert108 - computers make mistakes.
Ultimately there must be some type of causal ownership of the act that led to the mistake by the agent. If the agent doesnt have the appropriate amount of causal ownership or origination, then the act doesn’t belong to him. The causal ownership problem is related to the need for indeterminacies in order to initiate causal chains which is realted to the issue of quantum physics because the only type of indeterminacies that exist do nothing to provide us with causal origination capabilities. Therefore, we lack robust free will.

HUMAN CANCER CELLS HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE TOO!!1!

Do human cancer cells have the potential to live, think and reason?

Yeah, didn’t think so.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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If potential humans have an interest in living, abstinence is no different than abortion.

The truth (or, as Chief RZ would put it, “The Truth") is that some actual humans have an interest in letting all potential humans come into existence. We call these “actual humans” Republicans.

If potential humans have an interest in living, abstinence is no different than abortion.

No, because in the case of abstinence there is no living being in existence.  People practicing abstinence simply chose not to create one.  In abortion, there is a living being in the womb that has the potential to grow into a full adult.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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No, because in the case of abstinence there is no living being in existence.

The fetus has just as much interest in being born as an unconceived child.

In abortion, there is a living being in the womb that has the potential to grow into a full adult.

In neither case is there a rational being in existence; in both cases there is only a potential person.

I’ll agree that neither case has a rational being, but rationality doesn’t matter to me.  Only the potential for rationality.

Only in one case, though, is there a potential person in existence.  In the case of abortion a doctor could, conceivably, cut open the mother and point to it.  You can’t do that with abstinence.

It’s an absurd argument.

I have the potential to be President. Do I have diplomatic immunity? Do the taxpayers owe me $210,000 a year? Can I pass a new law stating that we must base decisions on actual characteristics and not potential ones?

Again, an absurd argument.  The 5th amendment of the constitution guarantees a right to life.  It doesn’t guarantee diplomatic immunity or a government salary.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Are you saying that the fetus’s interest in living is stronger--more important--than the unconceived child’s interest in living? Because that’s absurd.

Liberals and “progressives” - kill your kids. Maybe you’re right and the world would be better off without your offspring. We certainly don’t need any more people like you running around. Kill ‘em. Who wants your kids anyways?

Secularist supporters of abortion cannot ‘argue’ a believer out of his or her faith, so they resort to a legal system that accommodates their biases against religion.

Modern politics is fraught with examples of proof by assertion, and wide acceptance of many policies and perspectives is driven in part by the endless repetition of slogans. (argumentum ad nauseam).

Notwithstanding the inevitable (and shallow) secular arguments that belief in God is for weak people, and other such arguments as abortion, ad nauseum, as if secularism has provided anything other than an even greater amount of darkness.

There is the decidedly illusory notion that secularists feel that they are on even standing when discussing issues of faith. They are not. In fact, a secularist arguing against faith is like a botanist insisting to a zoologist that their fields of study are the same.

Mickey writes:

as if secularism has provided anything other than an even greater amount of darkness.

That anyone would be expected to provide proof, or even a single shred of evidence, that there is a magical man in the sky who is against a woman’s rights over her own body before we start making laws against it, doesn’t sound unreasonable to me.

Chad, the religious argument is bunk.  I’m an atheist.  I oppose abortion because murder is wrong.

Are you saying that the fetus’s interest in living is stronger--more important--than the unconceived child’s interest in living? Because that’s absurd.

Unconceived children don’t exist.  You