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Friday, July 27, 2007


Pat Tillman Murdered Because He Was About To Become Anti-War Hero?

That’s what Democrat Wesley Clark thinks (his interview starts at about 1:13 in):

He essentially says that if Tillman was killed deliberately the orders “came from the top” and manages to invoke the idea of a Rovian plot along the way.  That Clark, as a former high-ranking member of our armed forces, is even entertaining such fantasies is a disgrace.

This conspiracy mongering comes at the same time of news that the Pentagon will be ending the careers of seven military officers for mishandling the investigation into Tillman’s death, and the news that military doctors who examined Tillman’s corpse were suspicious about the proximity of the bullet holes in his body.  They were close together, indicating that Tillman was shot from close range.

This is undoubtedly the genesis of a story about the government murdering one of it’s own soldiers that will last us for at least a couple of decades.  Much like the idea that 9/11 was a plot to foment war in the middle east and JFK was murdered by the CIA.

But personally, I subscribe to Occam’s Razor.  The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.  In the case of Tillman, he was killed by his own troops.  At the time the war in Iraq was relatively new, and the military didn’t want the public getting disillusioned with a sad story about a celebrity like Tillman who signed up to fight for his country only to be killed tragically by his own troops.  So they covered it up and try to claim he was killed by enemy fire.  They also subsequently squashed any attempt at a criminal investigation for fear that it would generate sensational headlines and further undermine the war effort (which it would have).

Bad move, not just because they got caught but also because it’s not good to lie to the public.  And especially not to the family of a fallen soldier.  But now the left - always eager to seize on the smallest bit of innuendo in their drive to undermine the war effort, the military and the Bush administration - is blowing this up into a conspiracy to murder Tillman who was allegedly going to become an anti-war hero (what basis there is for this, or how he’d do that from the middle of a battlefield in Afghanistan, I have no idea). 

Because that’s what is convenient for their political agenda.

In reality, Tillman’s story is that of a tragic accident.  He signed up for the military, and then was killed on the battlefield by an accident before he could fulfill his destiny.  Sad, but hardly the fodder for murder plots involving Karl Rove.

Does this tick you off? Click here to email your elected representatives right here on Say Anything, or comment below.

Comments

There is/was a conspiracy with this soldiers death.
The Bush administration conpired to (per your own admission) hide the truth from the public, and used his death for propaganda purposes.
And that is a damned shame. Lying to the US public buy government officials no matter what the reason is IMHO akin to treason.
You said:” In the case of Tillman, he was killed by his own troops. At the time the war in Iraq was relatively new, and the military didn’t want the public getting disillusioned with a sad story about a celebrity like Tillman who signed up to fight for his country only to be killed tragically by his own troops.  So they covered it up and try to claim he was killed by enemy fire.  They also subsequently squashed any attempt at a criminal investigation for fear that it would generate sensational headlines and further undermine the war effort (which it would have).

ellinas on July 27, 2007 at 10:21 am

Granted the officers involved made some bad public relations judgments in this matter and allowed a nothing story to become something, but, this is, to quote Shakespeare ‘much ado about nothing.’

We should all admire Tillman for turning his back on big money and instead serving his country in a damn tough outfit. This was no criminal conspiracy, there is nothing here worth anything more than letters of reprimand to these officers for trying to cover up a regrettable accident. Who was hurt by this nonsense? Who profitted? What was to be gained by anyone by the fact Tillman was the victim of an accident and the military tried to keep this from taking anything away from Tillman’s genuine heroism.

These officers do not deserve their careers to be seriously harmed, ended or in the case of one General the loss of a star and part of his retirement money. This is all a bunch of bull excrement from the left.


In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman on July 27, 2007 at 10:50 am

Why would anyone listen to what that nutcase supporter of terrorists Wesley Clark has to say?  With exception to that looser Keith Sloberman, that is?


One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

docdave on July 27, 2007 at 10:56 am

The White House has refused to give Congress documents about the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman, with White House counsel Fred F. Fielding saying that certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting “implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests.

White House Denies Request for Documents

WOOF on July 27, 2007 at 01:25 pm

According the very same WaPo article, the White House and DoD have already turned over some 10,000 pages of documents pertaining to Pat Tilman’s death.

The inconvenient truth here is that it is not up to Henry Waxman, or any other member of Congress, to determine what materials may or may not be covered by executive privilege, and more than it was up to Newt Gingrich or Henry Hyde to make that same determination during the Clinton administration.

All former General Wesley Clark has done is remind us all why it was that no one took his abortive 2004 campaign for the White House very seriously.


“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Bat One on July 27, 2007 at 02:08 pm
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We should all admire Tillman for turning his back on big money and instead serving his country in a damn tough outfit.

I’ll admire Tillman for serving his country the day you condemn everyone else for not serving their country. Deal?

Who was hurt by this nonsense?

Pat Tillman’s family, and quite seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman#Controversy_regarding_Tillman.27s_death

Also, I’m sure they’re thrilled you refer to the death of their son as “nonsense.”

This was no criminal conspiracy

How can you possibly claim to know that with any degree of certainty? We already know that high-ranking members of the military lied to Tillman’s grieving parents about the way he died, even making up stories about the fake “battle” in which he died.

I’m amazed that no one has any problem with the government blatantly lying to both the country and, mroe specifically, to a fallen soldier’s grieving parents, just for public relations needs. This is disgusting. When did you give the government the carte blanche on Iraq?

dave on July 27, 2007 at 02:19 pm

dave: First I never said Tillman’s death was nonsense, but the dust up going on now is nonsense.

How was Tillman’s Family hurt by their not knowing for 30 days that his death was an accident caused by Friendly Fire? He was killed in war and where the bullet came from doesn’t make him less of a hero or his death more or less painful to the family.

Who is it that you want condemned for not serving? You have something in mind here pal, so spit it out and then I can react, but such a general request for a condemnation doesn’t deserve an answer.

Conspiracy: 1. a plan or agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal or subversive action. 2. the making of an agreement or plot to commit an illegal or subversive action.  Now when and where did these officers get together and agree to commit an illegal or subversive act? There is no evidence of any criminal or subversive (intended or likely to undermine or overthrow a government or other institution) act, but those on the Left think an accusation amounts to proof of guilt.

Dave your anti-military slip is showing! These officers
had nothing personal to gain from the false story that was allowed to go forward for a whole freaking 30 days, and quite frankly I think it would have been better for the family and the country if no one ever knew he died from friendly fire. This is an over reaction caused by a politically correct Pentagon under that bastard Gates, giving into pressure from the liberal MSM and Democrats as they felt some people had to be punished to get everyone else to shut the hell up about this and make the story go away.

So, you anti-American Leftists got your military blood, what the hell are your crying about?


In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman on July 27, 2007 at 02:45 pm
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Question: Are dave and Dave the same whackadoo? Or two similar whackadoos with similar signatures?


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Proof on July 27, 2007 at 03:53 pm
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Oh yes, very much so.  It’s the same Davey who used to tell us that smothering babies after birth is ok (it’s just a really late-term abortion!) but eating hamburgers is like the holocaust.


The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Rob on July 27, 2007 at 04:26 pm
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Mostly he trolls around posting absurd comments, like the one supporting necrophilia in that other thread, waiting for someone to notice him so he can get his rocks off arguing with circular logic.

Usually it’s best just to ignore him, but sometimes it’s fun to mock him and stuff too.


The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Rob on July 27, 2007 at 04:28 pm
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It figures that someone who can’t spell his own name the same way twice is a bit of a mental midget. Thanks for the conformation!


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Proof on July 27, 2007 at 04:33 pm

General Clark might be a little more aware of what goes on and is likely to happen in the military.

Sir William would never suggest that you turn a blind eye to all of the data while developing your theory.

Tillman was killed by a number of closely spaced bullets to the head. Considering that he would have moved almost immediately after the fist bullet struck, the bullets had to be fired in rapid succession. In order to do this with an M16, the person firing the weapon would have to have been very close. This would suggest, quite simply and obviously, that he was murdered.

He was probably murdered simply because he was too gung ho, fearless, pushy and resented by his men.

ews48 on July 27, 2007 at 04:45 pm

Daves mental maturity is somewhere between adolescence and adolescence.


One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

docdave on July 27, 2007 at 04:46 pm

General Clark might be a little more aware of what goes on and is likely to happen in the military

.
How long has he been out of the military?  How does that make him ‘more aware’.  I think he got his information from one of the terrorists he was defending.

He was probably murdered simply because he was too gung ho, fearless, pushy and resented by his men.

From what dime store novel and/or anti-military movie did you arrive at that assine conclusion?


One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

docdave on July 27, 2007 at 04:52 pm
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He was probably murdered simply because he was too gung ho, fearless, pushy and resented by his men.

Probably don’t have any facts to back up your statement, eh 4.8? That’s a bit like saying ews48 was probably abandoned by his mother because he was rude, ignorant and a wit of a wanker!


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Proof on July 27, 2007 at 04:53 pm
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Tillman who was allegedly going to become an anti-war hero (what basis there is for this, or how he’d do that from the middle of a battlefield in Afghanistan, I have no idea).

Well, the obvious basis for this is the fact that he hated Iraq war, was a Kerry supporter and even loved Chomsky’s books. That does not in any way prove anything having to do with his death, but to ask “how could he become anti-war hero” is to show that you just don’t follow the story.

quite frankly I think it would have been better for the family and the country if no one ever knew he died from friendly fire

So you prefer a beautiful lie to an ugly truth. I wonder if the Bible says anything about this.

Nikolay on July 27, 2007 at 06:25 pm

Nikolay:

So you prefer a beautiful lie to an ugly truth. I wonder if the Bible says anything about this.

Why did you have to drag the Bible into this topic? Was it just another a clumsy attempt by another Leftist to call Christianity a fantasy? You Leftists never fail to create a hostility towards people of faith even when there is nothing in the subject to justify your raising the issue, but you are all too cowardly to talk against Islam.

After Tillman’s death, if the choice was to not cause the family further pain by telling them he was accidently killed by friendly fire, then yes leave it alone. In such a case, after the family was allowed to believe he died in battle, the unpleasant specifics of how he died only serve to please the anti-American, anti-military Left in this country; and I assure you it gives no comfort whatsoever to his grieving parents. By the way, I can tell you from personal experience that knowing the details of my son’s death, his terrible wounds, his head crushed and etcetera were of absolutely no comfort whatsoever to me, they only added to the pain and each time I am caused to think of his death, having to push those ugly visions of his crushed body aside only increases my sorrow, it does not ease it one bit.

Why is that you on the Left are rejoicing in this affair and making up stories about Tillman’s liberalism, when you have no idea what he actually felt. Those of you on the Left are running as fast as you can to stand upon his dead body to use his death as a platform to preach your hatred of this country, our military and our way of life in America. You don’t care about Tillman or his family, you only care how you can use him to advance your antiwar agenda to help satisfy your insatiable lust for power and to help you turn this country into a socialist state. So, if anyone should be rghtly condemned and caused to suffer over Tillman’s death, might I suggest the members of the Democrat Party that love the death of every soldier so they can use them as cannon fodder to launch missiles of lies and bomb America with your hatred of people who love this country.


In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman on July 27, 2007 at 07:28 pm

the obvious basis for this is the fact that he hated Iraq war, was a Kerry supporter and even loved Chomsky’s books

If this is true, why did he quit a lucrative job in the NFL to join the military?  Either what you wrote is a lie or Tillman was an idiot.  If he only join the military so he could get critical information that he would feed to the anti-war loonies thus betraying his comrades, shooting was too good for him.


One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

docdave on July 27, 2007 at 07:31 pm

DocDave: You are wasting your breath, they have Tillman’s body and they have manufactured anti-war liberal credentials for him posthumously; and they will unashamedly drag out his dead body (figuratively) at every opportunity and speak for him from the grave, and sadly millions of liberal idiots will swallow it all as gospel truth!


In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman on July 27, 2007 at 07:38 pm

Hey, Nman, I know that but sometimes I like to stick pins in their deceitful balloons just to see them pop.


One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

docdave on July 27, 2007 at 07:45 pm

dave - I’ll admire Tillman for serving his country the day you condemn everyone else for not serving their country. Deal?

Yeah, because those two things are totally the same dude!

Capitalize your name next time infanticide boy. We have other dave’s around here occasionally. The resident SayAnything ‘abortion up to age 12’ fool always capitalizes his name.

likwidshoe on July 27, 2007 at 07:49 pm

3 rds of 5.56 striking the forehead would have disintegrated his skull. Since skull was intact and the final report listed the killing wounds as being to the torso, I call bullshit.

As stated before, when I first read the account of his death the first thought I had was"Holy fuck, he got smoked by his supporting fires.”, a not uncommon occurrence.

And nikoload, how could a man 1/2 a year dead support JFKerry for President? Not to mention that he enlisted specifically to go to the Mid-East and serve in combat. You really should get a clue.


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2Hotel9 on July 27, 2007 at 08:22 pm
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Was it just another a clumsy attempt by another Leftist to call Christianity a fantasy?

The question whether Christianity is “a fantasy” is irrelevant here. It generally offers a good moral advice, and I don’t remember much praise for “noble lies” there.
Here’s a question for you: would you support a military coup if the “Defeatocrat” is elected a president? For the greater good?

If this is true, why did he quit a lucrative job in the NFL to join the military?  Either what you wrote is a lie or Tillman was an idiot.

He joined the military after 9/11 to fight the terrorism. Since the war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, at least until invasion brought Al-Qaeda into the country, I don’t understand how voting for Kerry and protesting against turning Iraq into Islamic theocracy (i.e. “operation Iraqi freedom”) contradicts the wish to fight terrorism. As for Chomsky, he’s pretty extreme, but he’s a good writer. 

If he only join the military so he could get critical information that he would feed to the anti-war loonies thus betraying his comrades, shooting was too good for him.

OK, so given the fact that Tillman was in fact a leftist, you think that he deserved fragging, and the problem with the “loony left” wondering if fragging did indeed happen is not that this is a “wild conspiracy theory”, but that this is something that should be covered up “for the greater good”.

Nikolay on July 27, 2007 at 08:40 pm
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And nikoload, how could a man 1/2 a year dead support JFKerry for President?

John Kerry was not born on November 2, 2004, he was around some time before.
Would you claim that nobody supports Hillary for president since it’s not November 2008 yet?

Nikolay on July 27, 2007 at 08:49 pm

...I don’t understand how voting for Kerry…

Tillman voted for Kerry almost seven months after he died?

This doesn’t surprise me.

likwidshoe on July 27, 2007 at 08:51 pm
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Tillman voted for Kerry almost seven months after he died?

No, expressed his desire to do so, and was only prevented by his death.

Nikolay on July 27, 2007 at 08:55 pm
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No, expressed his desire to do so(vote for Kerry), and was only prevented by his death.

Wasn’t John Kerry the highly decorated Viet Nam war veteran? So, support of Kerry didn’t necessarily translate as anti-war, did it?  /tongue-in-cheek


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Proof on July 27, 2007 at 09:05 pm

And you have the signed affidavit attesting to Tillman’s support for JFKerry, and clearly stating his opposition to the war on terror? All notarized and validated as having been written by him after his enlistment in the US Army?

We would like to see that.


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2Hotel9 on July 27, 2007 at 09:07 pm
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And you have the signed affidavit attesting to Tillman’s support for JFKerry, and clearly stating his opposition to the war on terror? All notarized and validated as having been written by him after his enlistment in the US Army?

1) Anti-war, in this case, means not anti-“war on terror”, but anti-“war to promote Islamic theocracy” (i.e. “Iraqi freedom”).
2) No, we don’t. Neither do we have Tillman’s diary, which was destroyed. And Tillman himself is dead. This is the whole point.
Tillman could not become an anti-war activist, nor could he vote for Kerry—because he was killed. Your claims that Tillman’s anti-Bush views didn’t exists since they were not properly documented, just as the other guy here saying that Tillman deserved to die, only give more food to conspiracy thinking.

Nikolay on July 27, 2007 at 09:20 pm

His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, “I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town…. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f***ing illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.” With these revelations, Pat Tillman the PR icon joins WMD and Al Qaeda connections on the heap of lies used to sell the Iraq War.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/zirin

WOOF on July 27, 2007 at 09:44 pm

Nikolay - No, expressed his desire to do so, and was only prevented by his death.

Death prevents people from going to the polls and voting for Democrats? This recent development is good news!

likwidshoe on July 27, 2007 at 11:25 pm

So, Tillman was killed in Iraq? That would be news to his family. They keep saying it happened in Afghanistan.

And woofie, as you have been informed before, linking to thenation immediately proves wrong any point you are attempting to make.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 06:10 am

So the left are trying to make Tillman their sacrifical lamb proving once again that they have no principles and will not leave the dead to its rest.


One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

docdave on July 28, 2007 at 06:21 am

I just did a google sweep, and found a very interesting point. All of the “Tillman opposed the war and Bush” talking points did not appear till a year after his death. wiki classifies it as unsubstantiated hearsay.

Very telling.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 06:52 am

Nikolay: You seem unable to respond to specific points that seem to indicate you are guilty of factual errors, you seem to cherry pick things that are easy to blow off and then just make more ridiculous charges.


In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman on July 28, 2007 at 08:23 am
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Tillman was killed in Iraq?

John Kerry flew Tillman’s body back to Afghanistan from Iraq in an SR-71 after the CIA promised John a new “magic hat”.

(Please feel free to work these new “facts” into any conspiracy theory you feel is plausible!)


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Proof on July 28, 2007 at 08:43 am
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So, Tillman was killed in Iraq? That would be news to his family. They keep saying it happened in Afghanistan.

Did somebody claim that he was killed in Iraq? He did fight in Iraq, but that was another deployment.
If the voices in your head prevent you from understanding what you read, why bother?

Nikolay on July 28, 2007 at 08:53 am

A challenge for former General Clark:

Mister Clark, what say we play a little game of “I bet my stars.”

You have insinuated Pat Tillman’s death was not an accidental incident of friendly fire.  You have further suggested that this has been concealed by conspiracy at the highest level.

If you really believe both to be true, YOU can force teh issue.  YOU can prefer charges under the UCMJ.  If you are correct, you will have done your country a great service.  If you are wrong you will also have done your country a great service, as you will save the taxpayers a considerable sum in retirement pay.

Got the stones for it, General?


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Rodney Graves on July 28, 2007 at 09:09 am

If the voices in your head prevent you from understanding what you read, why bother?

Do you look in a mirror and say these stupid things to the image?

Tillman could not become an anti-war activist, nor could he vote for Kerry—because he was killed.

Amazing observation!!  But then Democrats in the past have had no problem buying the votes of dead people.

Your claims that Tillman’s anti-Bush views didn’t exists since they were not properly documented

If they are not documented how do you know he had anti-Bush views?


One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

docdave on July 28, 2007 at 09:12 am
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Did somebody claim that he was killed in Iraq?

See WOOF’s post above:

His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, “I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town….

Maybe the little voices in your head need reading glasses!


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Proof on July 28, 2007 at 09:12 am
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See WOOF’s post above:

  His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, “I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town…

OK, so how does that to lead to the claim that he was killed in Iraq? He was deployed to Iraq earlier, but was killed in Afghanistan, what is that you can’t understand?

If they are not documented how do you know he had anti-Bush views?

There’s a difference between a “signed affidavit” and what the friends of the dead say.

Nikolay on July 28, 2007 at 09:48 am

Stop the silly bickering and concetrate on the question of conspiracy. It seems to me that some government officials conspired to keep the true cause of Tillmans death from the people.

ellinas on July 28, 2007 at 10:41 am

Sorry, e, the conspiracy alluded to is of those who killed him.


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2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 10:57 am

And as for the close spacing of entrance wounds correlating to the shots being fired from close range. Not necessarily. Especially with weapons that fire in 3rd bursts. A rifleman with a solid rest can put bursts very tight out to 100 meters. And pure happenstance can hold together or disperse short bursts of automatic fire in an utterly random manner.

We are talking Mil-spec ammo. Not the most consistent of rds on the market.


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2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 11:11 am

Still 2Hotel9,even though assasination may sound far fetched, there was a mini conspiracy to cover up the circumstances of Tillmans death. That is not what I deserve from those I pay for their salaries. Tell the truth the first time no matter what the consequances and afterwards you will not have to put up with bullshit like this.

ellinas on July 28, 2007 at 03:26 pm
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even though assasination may sound far fetched, there was a mini conspiracy to cover up the circumstances of Tillmans death

e: There’s a BIG difference between a conspiracy (if there was one) to cover up an accident and a conspiracy to cover up a murder. If you can’t tell the difference, then welcome to the nutroots! You’ll fit right in!


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Proof on July 28, 2007 at 03:58 pm

Proof, I can tell the difference. If you will read my postings concerning Tillmans death you will not see me accusing anyone of murder.Please take your partisan blinders off. If you insist in keeping them on then ” welcome to the nutroots! You’ll fit right in!”
I am concentrating in the lies and mini conspiracy to cover up the circumstances of Tillmans death (fatricide or if you wish accidental killing via friendly fire.) IMHO, several people from our government/armed forces conspired to hide the true cause of Tillmans death. And to them, you, Rob, Neiman and others I say: I deserve the truth from my government. If you will attempt to, and/or cover up a case of simple accidental death, than my trust to you is broken. You then become a government I cannot trust because you lie to me.

ellinas on July 28, 2007 at 04:47 pm

e? Want to know where I stand in the issue you bring up? Here are a couple of introductions for you.

Civs lie. It is all you fucks do. Put you in charge of military information and intel and all that comes out are lies. I have known this all my life. Where the fuck you been, stupid ass?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 05:24 pm
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Proof, I can tell the difference

Did you miss the word “murdered”, then, in the blog title? That is the “conspiracy” in question. You can bring in others to your heart’s content (grassy knoll, anyone?) but in this discussion you are either confused or content with confusing the issue.


Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

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Proof on July 28, 2007 at 05:34 pm

I have known this all my life. Where the fuck you been, stupid ass?

2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 05:24 pm

2Hotel9 I read your 2 links and all it does is reinforce my views on the conspiracy to lie to us (people) as to the true circumstaces of Tillmans death. A lying bitch, is a lying bitch, no matter what the circmstances. I knew they lied about private Lynch and Tillman. I don’t want liers in our military or government.
As to the second part of your question, I was here in California working. Prior to that I did my national service (was drafted) in the Greek/NATO Marines, and because of my fluency in english I was a lowly marine who was acting as a liason/interpreter during joint US/Greek/Nato war games. Almost went to Angola to fight against Castro’s thugs. Did not go because of pay dissagreement.
And sir please refrain from calling me a stupid ass.
I will gladly accept ass. I strongly object to “stupid” ass

ellinas on July 28, 2007 at 05:56 pm

OMG!!! You actually can understand basic concepts put forward in plain english. I, madame, am shocked. And it only took 5 minutes to read both articles and ponder their significance and hop back with a typical civ bullshit answer.
Stupid asses such as you insist that lawyers be placed in charge of government and military operations. Then you fain shock that they lie about EVERYTHING.

What a stupid ass.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 06:17 pm

2h9
It ain’t just the lawyers.

...and I am no longer ‘shocked’. Nowadays, its just too much work to be ‘shocked’ - a sixty hour workweek at least.


For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 28, 2007 at 06:47 pm

BTW I believe this conspiracy… just because I need some faith. Jesus and all the fire and brimstone is a little too far fetched and metaphysically inconsistent for me to sign on, so I’m stocking up on conspiracy to keep my faith alive. One of my favorite wacknips has a piece on the pat tillman conspiracy… and military bankrobbers too.


For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 28, 2007 at 06:51 pm

I am a speed reader sir. And I like you, strongly object putting lawyers in charge of anything, much more our military. You have me mistaken for someone else. When I walk I sometimes go right, and sometimes left but the majority of the time I continously walk from the center towards either the right or the left.
Do you catch my drift? I am not monolithic. Neither the left nor the right has my devotion on every issue. But I strongly dislike government types be they civilian fucks or military bitches, lying to me for whatever reason (including who they had sex with). I expect the truth from these motherfuckers. Nothing less will do.
Got it?

ellinas on July 28, 2007 at 07:06 pm

Yes, it is the lawyers, because they are all lawyers.

e, you are deluding yourself if you think government does not and never did lie. They are lawyers and civs, and all you fucks do is lie.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 28, 2007 at 08:39 pm

2Hotel9 I know that the government does lie. But I am not about to give these bitches a pass. I expect integrity from the gov types. I’ll call them on it, and I like you use very harsh and profane language. It is not beyond my ability to call my local politico’s office and cuss them out. When they hang up on me I drive straight to their office, and tell their local staff how I feel about them. I have gone to city council meetings and cussed out the Mayor and city council. I try not to let these fuckheads get away with lies.

ellinas on July 28, 2007 at 09:00 pm

So, you going to start by cleaning out your party? And are you going to make these prosecutions retro-active?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 29, 2007 at 04:51 am

And which lies are you going to start with? Social Security or Global Warming?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 29, 2007 at 04:55 am

So, you going to start by cleaning out your party?
2Hotel9 on July 29, 2007

2hotel9 take a chill pill and read again what I wrote:“When I walk I sometimes go right, and sometimes left but the majority of the time I continously walk from the center towards either the right or the left.
Do you catch my drift? I am not monolithic. Neither the left nor the right has my devotion on every issue.”
I’m an Independent, for I am neither a democrat, nor a republican. Even though you and I disagree on a vast number of subjects,rest assured that we also agree on a vast number of subjects. Our disagreements come to life because of the subjects that Rob is choosing to put up for discussion.

ellinas on July 29, 2007 at 09:04 am

ellinas: Contrary to lying leftie propaganda, the “Right” in this country is quite small and mostly unrepresented in the media.  What is really going on is the extreme left making war on the vast majority of Americans who believe in personal freedom, individual independence and Constitutional govt.  The lefties are way overrepresented in the media, which gives the false impression that they are a large movement, while the vast majority of conservative Americans get very little representation in the media.  This is the purpose of propaganda; to disseminate false impressions for the purpose of gaining political power.  Conservatives trust the voters; lefties want to go around the elective process, and force everything through the courts.  See the difference?
Of course, if you think the US Constitution is a “right-wing” document, all is lost.


If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

robert108 on July 29, 2007 at 09:21 am

Robert108 I fail to see how this rant is of any substance,and how does it contribute to this discussion.

ellinas on July 29, 2007 at 09:27 am

e: You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

You claim to be so balanced between left and right, but your perspective is skewed.  Sorry I had to tell you that.


If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

robert108 on July 29, 2007 at 09:41 am

Answer the question. Which lie you going to start with, Social Security or global warming? Both bid fair to fuck our economy and society right in the keyster. Which you going to start with.

And how many Republicans have you voted for? Being a registered Independent since 1980 I can safely say I have voted for mostly Rs. They are lying sacksoshit, at least they are not socialist lying sacksoshit.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 29, 2007 at 11:06 am
Avatar for Neil B.

I listened to the clip, and the “disgrace” is your slanderous misrepresentation of what Clark said. He did not say that if Tillman was shot deliberately, the orders *to do that* came from the top. Clark said instead that the order to *cover up* what happened to Tillman came from the top, which is likely - and you folks admit there was a cover up of the friendly fire incident per se. Clark didn’t even say he thought it was on balance more likely that Tillman was shot deliberately (and remember, some soldiers have killed others - it isn’t by definition the same idea as that someone above them ordered them to do it either.) Clark’s point was that in principle, the issue should be investigated. The shots were very close, and you can’t just brush that off (but of course, chance can indeed allow such to happen once in a while.)

Possibly for example, some unstable guy was insulted by Tillman or whatever, and used the fog of the interaction to get off a few shots. That would be no reflection on the rest of the crew anyway; that’s the point of investigating such things. I don’t think it’s likely, but investigations are perfectly appropriate as a matter of principle and not improper to ask for.

Neil B. on July 29, 2007 at 06:36 pm

Neil B.,

Mister Clark asserted that there was a cover up at the highest levels.  As I stated earlier:

Mister Clark, what say we play a little game of “I bet my stars.”

You have insinuated Pat Tillman’s death was not an accidental incident of friendly fire.  You have further suggested that this has been concealed by conspiracy at the highest level.

If you really believe both to be true, YOU can force the issue.  YOU can prefer charges under the UCMJ.  If you are correct, you will have done your country a great service.  If you are wrong you will also have done your country a great service, as you will save the taxpayers a considerable sum in retirement pay.

Got the stones for it, Mister Clark

He hath not the stones.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves
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Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on July 29, 2007 at 07:04 pm
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