Pastor Wants To Let His Parishoners Concealed Carry In Church

Jay-Reinke-Jan-22-2013-700x525

When I first wrote about bills before the legislature that would end a state prohibition on concealed carry in churches many objected to the idea of guns in churches. But I think people are a little confused about what the law would do. It wouldn’t mandate that churches allow concealed carry but rather allow churches to make that decision for themselves.

Churches that want to allow concealed carry aren’t allowed to do so now because of state law. And there are some churches which want that, according to Pastor Jay Reinke who testified before a legislative committee today:

BISMARCK, N.D. (GPN) – A minister at two Lutheran churches in western North Dakota wants the state Legislature to allow his parishioners to bring guns to church.

Jay Reinke (RAN’-kee) says the change could save lives if someone else came into the church wanting to kill people. He is pastor of Redeemer Lutheran in Grassy Butte and Concordia Lutheran in Williston.

The bill being discussed, HB1283, would also end the state prohibition on concealed carry in schools, allowing local school districts to also make a determination as to whether or not they want to allow concealed carry.

The bill is a bit different from HB1215, which doesn’t include churches and would allow for schools to make decisions about concealed carry in secret.

I support HB1283, introduced by Koppelman, because it gives churches the ability to choose on this issue and it also doesn’t contain the provision about schools making concealed carry decisions in secret. I interviewed Rep. Dwight Kiefert, who introduced HB1215 about that provision, and he said it was important because schools who debate the issue and decide to remain a “gun free zone” might be making themselves targets.

I understand his logic, but I think the public’s right to know trumps that concern.

Rob Port is the editor of SayAnythingBlog.com. In 2011 he was a finalist for the Watch Dog of the Year from the Sam Adams Alliance and winner of the Americans For Prosperity Award for Online Excellence. In 2013 the Washington Post named SAB one of the nation's top state-based political blogs, and named Rob one of the state's best political reporters. He writes a weekly column for several North Dakota newspapers, and also serves as a policy fellow for the North Dakota Policy Council.

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  • Neiman

    Oh yes, I can just see Jesus with a pistol under His robes, saying “make my day punk.” I remember Him arming His apostles when they came to crucify Him.

    If you cannot see Jesus doing it and Him willing accepting death, as did His Apostles and countless martyrs, should a pastor be advocating Christians packing heat?

    • splined

      Church attendees are just as deserving of having armed security as much as attendees of other events. See http://blutube.policeone.com/police-training-videos/935831023001-jeanne-assam-and-the-new-life-church-shooting/

      • Neiman

        Then they do not believe in Christ as their Savior and Lord.

        • http://sayanythingblog.com Rob

          And you, of course, have appointed yourself as final arbiter on that score.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            Of course he does.
            What else would he have to do?

          • Neiman

            More lies from you and that it is a lie is proved by Gay Bob being in your corner, he too has rejected Christ and he too is operating in the spirit of anti-Christ.

            I have appointed myself nothing at all, I have no power at all; but, I will boldly defend God’s Word and faith in Christ, only by His Word. I have no power to judge or decide except, if a person refuses to accept Jesus as the Savior and Lord, I know they will, if they do not change their mind spend eternity of conscious suffering for that mortal sin.

          • SusanBeehler

            Hence the reason churches feel they need weapons because “Gay Bob” is threatening.

          • Neiman

            I don’t know what you are talking about, I only compared Rob and Gay Bob in the fact they both want to give advice to the Church, from the outside, from a place of being enemies of the Church.

          • badlands4

            Yes, she has.

          • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

            Jeez, Rob, don’t set Neiman off: he’s the religious Cliff Claven of SAB.

        • Guest Observer

          Who are you to judge? Are you omnipotent and know what is in their hearts?

          • tomorrowclear

            Brilliant logic, Skippy. Yes, one must be omniscient to understand and apply the basic principles set forth by Jesus. Well done.

          • Guest

            Thanks Lucifer! You sure told me.

          • Guest

            Wow, you sure told me. You are really clever Jiffy.

          • Neiman

            All life is judging right from wrong and in my case, I have not judged the heart but the words and actions of a minister, in my opinion, acting wholly contrary to faith in Christ and that judgment, only based on God’s Word, not my own desires. But, it is typical of folk like you, because you refuse to submit to God in all things, to accuse and attack anyone that is willing to stand on God’s Word.

        • StanB

          Sell your cloak and buy a sword for you will no longer have my protection.

          Random murder is not martyrdom.

          • Neiman

            He told Peter to put away his sword, which he had used in cutting off the ear of a man involved in arresting Jesus. He also said they that live by the sword will die by the sword and spoke of how He, and we as His children, should trust God even when faced with death.

            If God has decided this moment we will leave this world, should we fight and oppose God and can we succeed? If God says this situation will not result in our death, the surely no man can kill us, it is all in His hands as regards His children.

            If the killer comes into the Church, there is nothing sinful in trying to stop them and that includes use of lethal force, as a matter of self defense, should one or more members incidentally be armed or another weapon is used. That is not the question, the question is about a minister having so little faith in God that he urges the state to permit members of the congregation to be armed. It is one thing if some members are, for whatever cause armed and lethal force is used, it is another thing to say come to Church, give your life to Christ, but do not trust Him to protect your life. It is teaching something quite opposite of saving faith.

          • SusanBeehler

            I thought you were all about weapons, now you are turning to the Bible for weapon “control”.

          • Neiman

            No Susan, I was defending the Second Amendment and the right to keep and bear arms as Americans; while I have made it clear that after my service in the Marines and few short years as a police officer, I have never own nor wanted to own a gun.

            No Susan, you missed the point entirely, read all my comments here; I am talking about a matter of a minister seeking permission and encouraging his congregants to carry weapons as they worship God, which it seems to me is totally contrary to faith in God. It means taking control away from God and saying, no matter what you want Lord, I am saving my life whether you like it or not, versus coming together in love and faith, trusting Him with your life and counting it as nothing compared to Heaven.

          • SusanBeehler

            I agree with you.

          • Lianne

            Or simply God helps those who help themselves. God does give us free will.

          • Neiman

            ” God helps those who help themselves.”

            Where does it say that in the Bible?

            “God does give us free will”

            But, the Christian submits all things, even their will to God and lean not unto their own understanding nor trust in their own strength. By faith in God one man/woman can defeat armies, without faith an army cannot defeat a single man/woman.

            It is so odd to me to say I have faith in God, but will carry a gun to church just in case He fails me. What kind of faith is that? Are you afraid to die? Is life so precious that you would kill to save your own?

            It is understandable that a woman facing death and being without Christ, would selfishly sacrifice the baby in her womb to save her own; but the woman in Christ says “not my life Lord, save the baby and if it is your will I die, then I gladly die that he/she may live.” The same with that mad man, is my life so important I will kill to save myself? On the other hand, to save others we might have to be willing, reluctantly to take a life, but the Christian does not go to worship God with a gun or say they trust Him, as long as they have a gun.

          • splined

            Perhaps some people are called to act as protectors due to the realization that God may be asking them to use their gunhandling skills at church as Jeanne Assam did.

          • Neiman

            I have told you the truth, she and you are free to believe what you choose. I maintain packing heat to church is contrary to faith, while defending life is a always good thing. Each must decide according to their own conscience, divine light and faith. I think God allowed Assam to be there, but that He is not calling His people to wear guns when they come to meet with Him in corporate worship.

          • Lianne

            God gave us brains with which to think, believe, act, and never once have I thought Him to want us spineless. If we can not use what we have developed, why give us the power, the wisdom or the courage to do so?

          • Neiman

            If you have a great computer and don’t plug it in, it is useless. Then it depends upon what you plug it in to, whether it makes it work or blows up.

            It takes much more courage to face death without a gun and trust God. I was kidnapped at gun point, but by the power of Christ in me, I was able to resist the powerful fear and flee impulse, despite my own fear to calm the man down and construct a scenario wherein he was quickly stopped and the other man he also threatened to kill (my friend) was not harmed. Not my courage, but the Lord helped me to overcome my fear and I didn’t use a gun. Once when facing a man with a knife and I had a 38 caliber pistol on my hip, I took him down only by physical force, again the Lord giving me the strength despite my own fears. So, it did not require a spine or extraordinary courage, but the Lord and His Wisdom to gain the victory and never shooting anyone.

            My point is that it is whether or not God is there to direct our path, no matter how it turns out and he will work through us and we will be satisfied.

          • StanB

            So, you want the law in place to prevent people from bringing guns into a church, so anyone who does has to break the law? What sense does that make.

            I know of at least one minister who actively campaigned in Wisconsin for CCW.

          • Neiman

            This is NOT about the Law, but about a minister telling people to have faith, but packing heat just in case, which is anti-faith.

          • slackwarerobert

            And after you dispatch the crazed lunatic, there is nothing wrong with the pastor saying to holster your gun either. An alter boy with an AK has a much better chance of his outie staying in working order than painting wrong way on his backside.

          • Neiman

            Again, if you have a point to make, get help, because the above are nonsensical ravings with no discernible point.

          • SusanBeehler

            So how many random murders are their in North Dakota? or are you planning something for the future.

          • SusanBeehler

            Here are the ND 2011 stats. 3 murders appearing with no relationship to the killer, 1 murder of a police officer killed in the line of duty. 13 murders the victims knew or were related to the killer. So the odds of someone you know in your “church” or your “home” killing you are the highest. 3 out of 17 were “random” or “unknown”. None of them happened in a church or a school.

          • slackwarerobert

            So you want to be the first? I don’t. They call us followers of god, not trend setters.

        • tomorrowclear

          You’ve somehow managed to stumble into the truth on this one.

          Would you say Rob’s atheism blinds him to wishes of Jesus when it comes to weapons and killing?

          • Neiman

            Yes!

        • splined

          Jeanne Assam who obviously stopped the carnage in Colorado states that the Lord called her to provide security for the church and also was commended for her life saving efforts by President George W. Bush. It seems obvious to me that the Lord calls believers such as Jeanne Assam to provide security that protects vulnerable fellow citizens. God called Jesus to do his mission on earth. We each have a mission on earth. We are not called to be God. In your world Christians are protected by non Christians as you feel God does not call Christians to provide armed security.

          • Neiman

            I cannot speak to Ms. Assam and as I said, it is NOT about whether or not a person otherwise armed with a gun or other weapon cannot and should not seek to save life, even if a life must be taken, when there is opportunity. That is the way it is at home or a police officer or a soldier, all defending life.

            The question is whether or not seeking and encouraging congregants to be armed in worship services is in harmony with the central teaching of the Christian faith, wherein Christian people are taught to live by faith and committing their very lives to Christ and accepting His Will in the matter. If you, through Scripture, can put that gun in Jesus Hands and see Him blasting a killer into eternity, even to defend the lives of others, then you are seeing something I have not found in 60+ years of Christian study and that the Christian Church has never taught.

            Jesus, John the Baptist, all the Apostles and a myriad of saints have tamely submitted their lives to God and went to prison, submitted to torture and their own deaths, rather than take up arms to defend their own lives. Jesus said He could have called down legions of angels and destroyed His enemies, but He went to Calvary. Innumerable Christians have followed Him to their own deaths; but, I guess that is all wrong and you are right, I mean what the heck did Jesus and these living saints know, right?

          • splined

            God is not calling us to die at Calvary, I would have a terrible time living with myself if I walked away from a madman attempting to harm or kill family members or anyone else when I had the ability to help those in need and instead decided to let these individuals suffer pain. If you let my family members suffer at the hands of a madman I certainly would not be pleased with you proving your bizarre pacifist views. Whether in church or not fellow humans have a responsibility to protect those whose life’s a endangered.

          • Neiman

            He said we are to take up our cross daily and die to the flesh, didn’t he?

            You are just terribly obtuse, it is one thing to defend others, it is another altogether to ask people to have faith in Christ, but carry a gun just in case. They are contrary to one another. We may find ourselves, as I have, wherein we must risk our own lives to save others and even kill to save lives, as I too would not stand by as a pacifist. I am not a pacifist!

            It is another thing for a minister to want his people to come together to worship Jesus, to do so by faith in Him and carry guns for back-up. It is one thing to defend others and another thing to not be willing to die for Christ if called on to face death or deny Him. How odd to come together is the love of God, bow down before Him in worship and have a gun on our hips because we really do not trust Him at all. Such people have no faith, just a wish, a hope He is real.

          • splined

            I feel Jeanne Assam is very thankful to God for the opportunities she has had to protect human life’s at church and that the Lord has blessed her with special gun handling skills and abilities. I am sure her pastor felt the same and George W. Bush obviously felt the same way.

        • splined

          Neiman – You say your disagreement is only about pastors recommending church members packing heat, but just about every statement you make you paint with a broad brush your disagreement with any church members carrying a gun to church or otherwise. You say you are not a pacifist and you call those who disagree with you obtuse.

          • Neiman

            Believe what you want, if you cannot understand the differences that is your problem, not mine.

    • http://sayanythingblog.com Rob

      Nobody is saying your church has to allow it. We’re just saying that churches should be able to settle the matter for themselves.

      But I know how much you hate that concept, and would rather impose your preferences on everyone else.

      • Neiman

        You’ll forgive me for saying an atheist has no role in what is or is not proper in the Church. You lie about me a lot, I don’t impose my beliefs, only state what the Bible’s says without fear or favor. No one is under my authority.

        • http://sayanythingblog.com Rob

          An atheist has the same role you do in talking about the freedom of religion and gun rights.

          • Neiman

            Yes, about “religion” and gun rights; but not about the Christian faith, as any atheist only WILL and always WILL give advice contrary to that faith as they are enemies of Christ and faith, they are in service to the spirit of anti-Christ. Your defending guns in Church is advice contrary to the faith, it advises Christians NOT to trust in Christ regarding whether they live or die, but to come to Church armed and be prepared to look to their self and not Christ in a life or death situation and that is anti-Christ.

          • StanB

            I trust Christ has given me the ability to shoot straight. I would proudly go to my death defending the faith and others. I will not stand by and let someone kill others just because they want to kill someone. One of the first Christians was a Centurian, Christ never told him to quit his job.

          • Neiman

            You cannot put that gun and straight shooting in Jesus hand, can you? How can you call it faith in Christ to pack a gun to back Him up? You didn’t have faith in Him at all, but in your gun.

            You people drive nuts, you are so obtuse. I will not keep explaining it, as you are deliberately being stupid. It is not about defending life, I venture to say I have done so more than yourself in real life. It is about a minister calling people together to worship the Lord in faith and wanting them to have guns in case Jesus lets them down. That is not faith and I do not believe it is what Jesus would do.

          • slackwarerobert

            His father gave us the right to bear arms, it is not the sons job to say dad is wrong, but to obey his father. He didn’t disobey him when he was put to death. Nothing wrong with rendering unto killer that which is lead. I have faith in god, I have no faith in the police stopping a killer, stealing a donut yes.

          • Neiman

            That gun in your hand alone, proves you do not have faith in God and that you only fear for your life, your not ever finding the new life in Christ Jesus.

            Would it not be better to seek God and try and stop the killer without killing them? Killing them is not the only or best answer, even if sometimes unavoidable.

            Our heavenly Father did not teach us to pick up a gun, but to walk into the line of fire to bring His Gospel to a Christ hating world. Too many Christians have willingly suffered prison, torture, loss of all things and died in horrible ways to bring the Gospel of Salvation to others, to the very worst of souls to give any justification for your bloodthirsty view of the Christian faith.

            I know of a young man that for three years was tortured beyond belief and finally drowned by his Soviet Officers, because he would not stop talking about Jesus to his fellow soldiers. He had a gun, other Christians had guns, they could have revolted and killed their tormentors. Yet, this young man, knowing he would soon die for his faith, nonetheless to the last breath testified of the love of God and his testimony gave the same sacrificial, Christlike courage to hundreds of thousands of Christians to help them endure the unendurable. Had he killed his tormentors, he would have had no testimony at all.

            The Church is a place to congregate for mutual worship of God, to have our faith strengthened, not to go armed ready to kill others.

          • http://sayanythingblog.com Rob

            You, my friend, have done far more to discredit your religion then I Ebert have.

          • Neiman

            You can only imagine how much I value the opinion of an atheist on whether or not I have hurt the Christian faith. That is who every Christian should look to – atheists for their opinion on the faith.

            The atheist says, go to Church looking to the Author and Finisher of your faith while packing heat is best, it is the highest expression of faith. Thanks!

            Sarcasm intended.

        • Roy_Bean

          An atheist has as much right to talk abut this as the Pope has to talk about birth control. As for me, if I ever find myself in a situation where i have to shoot to live I will be praying for a steady hand.

          • Neiman

            Wrong! While he/she may have the Constitutional right to say whatever they want about anything they want; as atheists they are enemies of faith and they can ONLY and absolutely WILL give advice contrary to faith and only a foolish Christian would heed their words seriously.

      • SusanBeehler

        I like to see how they are going to handle some the disagreements at church, if you don’t like the color of the carpet, they will flash their gun and it is settled. The color the guy with gun chooses wins.

        • camsaure

          I hope you are just trying to be funny and are really not THAT ignorant. But sadly probably you are not trying to be funny

          • SusanBeehler

            I think it is funny, don’t you. Do you go to church? I have been at few meetings when things do get pretty heated about pretty petty things. I really think in some churches this could play out, than it would not be funny.

          • camsaure

            So I guess your answer is: that you are that ignorant.

    • Dan

      While I appreciate what you’re saying, I must say that it’s really hard to reach the lost if you’re dead. Knowing that the VAST majority of criminals surrender or run when confronted by armed resistance, having an armed resistance makes for one LESS target rich environment. Besides, wouldn’t a victimless outcome in which the potential mass murderer was disarmed and then told of the saving Grace of Chist be a MUCH better outcome?

      I certainly think so.

      • Neiman

        If you cannot put that gun in the hands of Jesus, the Apostles and a myriad of martyrs, all willing to die rather than take up arms, it should not be in the hands if any true Christian who should not fear death.

        Jesus told Peter to buy a sword and when He used it, Jesus spoke against using it.

        • tony_o2

          Jesus told Peter to buy a sword

          Now find us where he told Peter to leave it at home.

          when He used it, Jesus spoke against using it

          I don’t know if it was a typo, but I don’t think Peter should be referred to as “He”. That aside, the question to ask is WHY Jesus told Peter to put it away.

          I don’t know if it was because Jesus knew that his time to die for our sins was at hand, or whether he just didn’t want anyone to actually use the weapons that they carried (even after telling them to buy one). Are there any other passages where Jesus told someone not to use a weapon to defend someone else?

          • Neiman

            He said that those that live by the sword will die by the sword.

            Jesus said he could have called upon ten thousand angels to defend Him and He stopped Peter from using the one He brought.

            How can you say you have faith in Christ and you cannot even go to church without a gun?

            Can you honestly put that gun in Jesus hand? If not, it does not belong in the hands of His children either in serving Him.

            It all says no to arming a congregation.

          • tony_o2

            Can you honestly put that gun in Jesus hand? If not, it does not belong in the hands of His children either in serving Him.

            Then why……

            Jesus told Peter to buy a sword

            Why did Jesus tell Peter to buy a sword if God does not want people to posses the weapons to defend themselves from the evil people whom posses weapons? Why did Jesus tell Peter to arm himself if he didn’t want him to be armed?

          • Neiman

            Se Scriptural based answer to Stan B above. You are wrong.

        • StanB

          Jesus in the upper room asked if when he sent them out to teach the first time if they were harmed. They answered that they were not. He then said I say to you, if you do not have a sword sell your cloak and buy one, for you will be outside my protection.

          He wanted them to be able to protect themselves from bandits. This was the twelve and the seventy he was talking to. To die for faith has merit. To be murdered for your ourself cloak does not further the growth of the faith. There have been Christian soldiers and law enforcement officers since the beginning. How can we protect the weak, the young and the old if we just fold and give them up. There is no greater love then to give your life up for a brother. I don’t think he meant slow them down for a second.

          • Neiman

            Jesus says to the disciples to buy swords, but when they show him two, Jesus says the two are enough. The first direction, the literal one, is inadequate for two reasons.

            First, the obvious question is: two swords are enough for what? Are they enough for a physical fight to resist arrest? This is hardly the case because during Jesus’ arrest a disciple (Peter according to John 18:10) took out his sword and cut off the ear of the servant (Malchus according to John 18:10) of the high priest. Jesus sternly tells Peter to put away his sword, “No more of this!” and then he heals the servant, restoring his ear (Luke 22:49-51). Resisting arrest cannot be the purpose of the two swords.

            Second, were the two swords enough for an armed rebellion to resist the authorities and to impose the new Jesus movement in a political and military way? Jesus denounces this purpose in Luke 22:52, as the authorities are in the process of arresting him: “Am I leading a rebellion that you have come with swords and clubs?” The answer is no, ashe is seized and led away (v. 54).

            So the physical interpretation of Luke 22:36 (the two swords were intended to be used) will not work in the larger context. Two swords are not enough to resist arrest, to pull off a revolt of some kind, or to fully protect themselves in the Garden of Gethsemane.

            The contextual meaning of the swords In contrast to the literal interpretation of using swords physically, the following interpretation works smoothly in context so that all the pieces of the puzzle fit
            together.

            First, Jesus reminds the disciples of his mission for them before he arrived in Jerusalem (Luke 9:3; 10:1-17). Did they need a purse, a bag, or extra sandals? No, because people were friendlier, and their opposition to him was spread out over three years. Now, however, he is in Jerusalem, and he has undergone the compacted antagonism of religious leaders seeking to trap him with self-incriminating words. When the authorities are not present, they send their spies. The atmosphere is therefore tense, and the two swords—no more than that—represent the tension. Jesus’ mission has shifted to a clear danger, and the disciples must beware. However, he certainly did not intend for his disciples to use the swords, as we just saw in the literal interpretation, above, for he is about to tell Peter to put away his sword.

            Second, “For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’” (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a
            fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this
            prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, “No more of this!” (22:51).

            The third and final nonliteral interpretation says that Jesus frequently used physical objects (seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep and so on) to teach nonphysical, universal truths, and the same is possibly true of the two swords. This interpretation of clarification is supported by Matt. 10:34: “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword.” As seen in this article on Matt. 10:34, in context he does not mean a physical sword that cuts up and bloodies the family, but a spiritual and moral one that may divide it up nonphysically. And it is recisely Luke who clarifies Jesus’ meaning of “sword” as nonliteral, in the two parallel passages of Matt. 10:34 and Luke 12:51. If Luke does this in 12:51, then why would he not shift slightly the meaning of “sword” in 22:36-38?

            http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/luke_22_36.htm

            Defense of others is admirable, to say we have faith and carry a sword, except as in our daily duties equire, police, soldier, etc, is contrary to faith. In short, it is not others that concern you but your own fear of death, because you are not sure of your salvation.

          • PK

            I’m sure none of us are actually Jesus, or have been given a direct order by Jesus to become martyrs like the Apostles. What about all the stories from the Old Testament about standing up against evil and destroying them? Moses? David and Goliath? I think this contradicts most of what you’re saying.
            1 Samuel 17:45 ; Then David said to the Philistine, “You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the Lord will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down, and cut off your head; and I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel, and that all this assembly may know that the Lord saves not with sword and spear; for the battle is the Lord’s and he will give you into our hand.”
            Then Goliath charges David and David charged him, whipped out his sling shot and nailed the champion in the head, killing him. Then David pulls out Goliath’s sword and cuts his head off. So why did David need that sling shot to defeat the giant? Did he not have enough faith in the Lord? From what you’re saying, someone isn’t fully in Christ if they carry a weapon. How can someone be partly saved?

          • PK

            You keep bring up “they that live by the sword will die by the sword” as if it’s proof we shouldn’t carry a modern sword. When an equally good interpretation could be, ” they that live by the sword( bandit, pirates, mercenaries, etc) will die by the sword ( the sword of a man of God that he tried to harm). It’s your choice to not arm yourself, but don’t go around saying people aren’t as holy as thou because they want to be armed.

          • Neiman

            Please copy and paste wherein I claimed to be holier than anyone else or admit you lied.

            I have often herein defended the right of any man to defend themselves or others, I only object to a minister wanting the members of his congregation to wear guns in church services, as it is wholly contrary to the very faith in Christ they, like you it seems, pretend to have, but in reality do not have at all. They don’t need Jesus to be their champion in every area of their lives, he is not their all-in-all, after all they have guns instead.

            Get out of the way Jesus, this PK fellow is getting ready to lock and load.

          • PK

            Well i think this message i’m responding to sums up why i think that you think you’re a better Christian and that you’re move saved than others.

            “as it is wholly contrary to the very faith in Christ they, like you it
            seems, pretend to have, but in reality do not have at all.”

            How do you know my heart? You can’t take someone disagreeing with you about the Bible, even though there many translations and many more interpretations of the Bible. I’m a sinner, a disgrace of a creation we were meant to be, but i know i’m saved. Sorry if that’s hard for you to accept. If you think you’re a minister in any way… well i’m not the judge.

          • Neiman

            You are the one denying faith in Christ by believing it Christian to carry guns to worship services and take direct action to kill to save your life or others. How does that line up with faith? I am trying to get you to see that your position is incompatible with real faith in Christ. It is saying ‘I have faith in Christ, but back it up with a gun.’

            All Christians in varying degrees suffer from this double minded faith. We claim faith in God, while our words and actions betray that faith. When the late David Wilkerson confronted a gang leader (Cross and the Switchblade), he was facing being cut to pieces because he proclaimed Christ, but had no gun, he had real faith, a faith that says I am willing to die to be used of God to save a single soul. It is faith that says when everything has failed, when the Christian is in the gutter and starving, they still trust in God.

            Did John the Baptist, did all the Apostles and innumerable saints carry weapons to resist death? Are not they and Jesus our examples? No, faith and that gun in the hand are in opposition to one another.

          • PK

            Well i never said anything about “believing it Christian to carry guns to worship services”. I know that’s what this thread is about, and i think it should be up the the individual church to decide. That’s what the Pastor is arguing for, the rights of his congregation. Someone being persecuted and faced with death for their faith and testimony of Jesus Christ, and they stand down and die for their faith, is a lot different than someone having a tool and using it to stop a deranged, demonic individual from harming or killing an innocent person. Your tactic of being aggressive with anyone who disagrees with you about an interpretation of the Bible, even small issues like this, isn’t very effective and discredits all the good points you make. I’d rather debate an atheist on the statistical probability of the formation of the first DNA containing, self replicating cell out of mud to even start the evolution process, than to sit here going back and forth with someone as arrogant as you. They’re both never ending arguments, but at least the atheist won’t doubt and attack my faith in Christ.

          • Neiman

            I offered above scriptural foundations for my beliefs about this matter, I will not repeat them here as editing them because of the DISQUIS format is too time consuming. While none of us are Jesus, we are to be indwelled by His Spirit, to be one with Him, to be imitators of Him, He using us as vessels through whom He can minister to the world. So to say we are not Him, is to miss the point of saving faith entirely.

            We have been talking about the Christian Church, not the Jewish covenant of the Old Testament. While the OT has much to teach us and is valuable in a myriad of ways for Christians, Christ brought in a different age and way to Salvation, a different way of dealing with the world. So, please invest as much time showing where Jesus commanded His disciples to kill others in defense of their own lives, I’ll wait for those passages.

            Surely, such an idea flies in the face not only of Jesus laying down His own Life without fighting, but the same rule applied to John the Baptist, all the Apostles and innumerable saints throughout the Christian era. It is passive in the face of evil, as life here pales in significance to life ever after. David Wilkerson when confronted by Nicky Cruz, a ruthless gang leader, was told by Nicky he could easily cut him to pieces if he didn’t stop talking about Jesus. David did not even think of defending himself, but only replied that every piece of his body Nicky cut off would be crying our to God to forgive Nicky, the latter later accepting Jesus and being an evangelist.

            I have said multiple times to people here that are blind or needful of remedial reading that, defending one’s own life or the lives of others is not forbidden and most Christians would put up such a defense. Even if in a church setting, if INCIDENTALLY someone was armed or could find a weapon, to take a life defending life is not murder and not forbidden; but they key here is INCIDENTAL, the person did not go there armed or pick up an effective weapon by design, their intent was only worshipping God by faith. Let me offer another example that might clarify the difference.

            In active euthanasia, the intent is to give a cocktail of drugs to terminate life and it is from God’s perspective murder, it was the intent of the heart to play God and kill. In passive Euthanasia, enough pain killing medication is given to eliminate pain and at some point the level of medication has a high risk of terminating that life, but that was not the deliberate intent, the intent was solely pain amelioration, so it is not murder. So the idea here that is offensive is intent, the intent of the minister and your intent, which is clearly to kill, not lay down your own life to save others.

            To go to church with the idea of killing anyone threatening the people, is not having faith in God, it is to cause death and is contrary to the love of God and faithful trust in Him in all things. If one happens to have a weapon or picks one up with no desire or intent to kill anyone, but is forced to take action, the intent in gathering together is to worship God and have faith in Him to protect the people. It is all a matter of the heart and to say to a congregation – come to seek God packing heat is not faith and any subsequent worshipful sacrifices cannot be acceptable to God.,

          • PK

            So my intent “is clearly to kill”? How do you know i wouldn’t lay down my life to save others? I like to be armed with the same tools that bad people are armed with so if i ever have to, i can protect innocent people. I wouldn’t shoot someone for trying to rob me and i would have a lot of restraint if i was the only one in danger. I don’t have some sick fantasy about going out and killing people. Why do you think people who want to be armed to protect their families, wherever they are, just want to kill people? The God that inspired the Old Testament was the same one that walked this earth and is written about in the New Testament. The same Jesus will also come back and on That Day will destroy all His enemies, but someone who has a weapon to protect their babies from demon possessed monsters can’t be saved apparently? They’re not faithful enough so God won’t accept their worship. Hmm, thanks for your view. Do you also think that you will be raptured away from the tribulation?

          • Neiman

            You keep talking about wanting to wear guns, even in church and your only intent is to kill bad guys should they drop by.

            One famous story is of Nazi’s invading a Church and telling everyone that did not believe in Jesus they could leave with their lives and they would kill everyone that stayed behind. No one left and the Nazi’s closed and locked the door and laid down their guns and said they came to worship the Lord and wanted to make sure there were no government spies there, as they knew they would run for their lives and so the only people left behind would be real Christians. Of course, PK would have pulled out his gun and killed them before they said another word, right?

            I can post story after story of people that did not shoot and wound up witnessing to their potential killers and winning them for the Lord.

            Until Judgment Day, we are in grace, wherein God is calling all who will come to accept His salvation in Christ and I see nothing in His words or actions that suggest His children are sent into the world to pack heat and “off” the enemy.

            Had you started with your willingness to die for others and expressed great reluctance at ever using a weapon to kill and expressed faith in Christ in every circumstance of life, the discussion would have taken a different course; but, defending guns in Church, guns which are contrary to faith, suggest a blood lust IMO.

          • PK

            I don’t think i keep talking about “wanting to wear guns, even in church”. If wanting myself and others to be capable of stopping someone from spilling innocent blood is having a “blood lust”, then i’m a sick person. So does Christ not come back and kill all his human and angelic enemies? How is stopping someone from kidnapping a 6 year old girl outside her home with a weapon, contrary to the faith that culminates with Jesus Christ returning and utterly destroying his enemies. He not only kills them once, but he resurrects them and kills them a second time.

          • Neiman

            Geez Louise! How many times must I tell you that saving that child, yourself or others is a wonderful thing, even if it requires the ultimate act of violence. I am ONLY _ ONLY _ ONLY objecting to what is being taught when a minister of the Gospel wants it possible for his church members to carry guns in Church, as it opposes the very faith in Christ he is supposed to believe in and teach by his words and actions. I am not opposed to some for various reasons possibly being armed or using something else for a weapon to defend life, even in Church, I hope I would take such actions. No, I am talking ONLY about the message this minister is conveying which is contrary to the Gospel of Faith.

            As to Jesus at the culmination of the ages, He judges in righteousness and that perfectly and not one person thus suffers that have not rejected Him and His salvation and given their hearts to Satan, the prince of this fallen world; and, that event in no way justifies our acting in judgment and killing another person as Christians, although it can happen even to Christians, it is not by word or deed taught or approved by Christ.

          • PK

            You did say that owning and carrying weapons is basically denying Christ due to no faith in Him. Then you say that it’s ok to defend life if you accidentally have a weapon. It doesn’t make any sense. I’ll make a point, more like defend myself ever since my first post on this thread, and you get upset and become aggressive. Why? I never said that the end times “justifies our acting in judgment and killing another person”. I was making an argument that having a weapon to defend innocence isn’t a contradiction of the faith, considering Christ has used man ever since our fall to destroy His enemies, and will return to fully dispatch them all. Here’s what i said,
            “How is stopping someone from kidnapping a 6 year old girl outside her
            home with a weapon, contrary to the faith that culminates with Jesus
            Christ returning and utterly destroying his enemies[?].”
            I find it interesting that you took my single point, broke it into two points and addressed them separately, never answering my question. Your overall view on this is far to conflicting, Biblically, to be right. That’s just my view.

          • Neiman

            1. If you are going to be dishonest, we will end this discussion quickly. I NEVER said “owning and carrying weapons” is due to having “no” faith in Christ. I never said anything of the sort, so they seem to be lies on your part. You twisted what was said for your own dishonest purposes.

            You are unable to separate individuals and the Church, what people do and what the Church should be teaching believers. I carefully separated the two many times and you have never acknowledged that they are separate topics.

            2. You lied again, I never got upset and was never aggressive, these are both wrong. It is just that people like yourself, when anyone responds directly and without obfuscations, get your feelings hurt. Those hurt feelings are mostly because you are unable to read the English language, oh you know the words, but have never learned how to actually read.

            3. Jesus has never used man to destroy His enemies, you do not understand freewill and God’s Permissive will. Men commit evil deeds by a freewill choice and the Lord, by His Permissive Will, simply does not stop them, except in the rarest of circumstances. God does not do evil things, He does not bring about judgments which man brings upon themselves.

            4. I said many times defending that girl outside her home is just fine, I know I would, except in my case, even being a former serving Marine and Police Officer, have no guns, I would not use lethal force, rather I would place myself in the line of fire and risk my own life instead of hers. But, if you choose to lock and load, it is not a sin.

            5. Permissive Will versus Perfect Will, what is it? The Lord through Moses allowed married people to divorce, only because of the hardness of their hearts; it still grieved God, but such a divorce was not a sin, only spiritual failure. His best desires was for each couple too seek Him before getting married and before Him remain married. In a slightly similar manner as touching our subject, He would have us take no lives at all, rather to trust Him, live or die and allow Him to dispense justice. Knowing our carnal nature He has not called such lethal defense of life a sin; yet, it was never His highest goal for our lives, rather it is to count our lives as nothing in His service. That is why it confuses you, there is His Permissive Will versus His Perfect Will and I think a minister should always uphold His Perfect Will, while understanding His Permissive Will. This minister in wanting it lawful for his congregants to be armed in church services, seems to me to represent having given up on God’s Perfect Will, to not teach self sacrifice and to fail to teach them to count their lives as nothing before God.

            So, #5 only has to do with the pastor and what his words seem to be teaching his congregants and my low opinion of the spiritual path he seems to be taking.

      • SusanBeehler

        So how many times has the preacher in your church needed a gun to defend himself? REALLY REALLY Sad if North Dakota thinks our churches need to have guns.

      • SusanBeehler

        Yeah and it is really hard to preach faith with a gun. Who is “Chist”

    • RCND

      I’ll die for Christ or Country, but won’t go down without a fight just because I chose to honor the Sabbath by attending church

      • Neiman

        Then you are saying you do not trust Jesus, you do not allow Him to decide if you live or die, you will take a gun in hand and in doing so, say Jesus I don’t care what you want, I will do what I want and think is right. That is NOT the Holy Spirit, that is the flesh which is opposed to Christ.

        • camsaure

          Maybe you should just take a nap on the railroad tracks and trust to the Lord to save you. No, because you should not be testing the Lord. Same goes for protecting yourself. Also I think you would probably misinterpet the whole turn your other cheek thing. It is not about just laying down to be slaughtered you know.

          • Neiman

            So, you are saying it is okay to trust God, but carry a gun just in case?

          • slackwarerobert

            No, it is ok to trust god to guide your aim on target. Why would god have a problem with you exercising the rights he gave you in his house?

          • Neiman

            When did God give anyone the right to go armed in His house to kill others? God does not speak of killing, but being willing to die for the souls of the lost.

          • SusanBeehler

            Is a slaughtering coming. Where?

        • RCND

          Dude, your logic is completely messed up. Did you ever go to Sunday School?

    • SusanBeehler

      They were there, advocating it was not do to fear or because of violence.

      • Neiman

        What was there?

        • SusanBeehler

          Sorry, I should have said. Preachers, men of the “cloth” were advocating for carrying concealed weapons in their churches, one even in a round about way hinting almost admitting they were breaking the law now. Twice the Chairman of the Committee Said you do know it is currently against the law to have a gun in church. When directly asked if he carries a gun in church? The preacher said I am not in church right now. His church has security,”gate keepers” I suppose so the faithful can’t escape if his sermon goes on and on and on.

          • Neiman

            I love it, this minister you mentioned and most every one commenting here are saying, “It is okay to go to Church and have faith in Christ, but in case you are wrong or Jesus lets you down, pack a gun.” That sure encourages faith, doesn’t it?

          • SusanBeehler

            Yup, but from what you have written in the past I thought you were too of “ye little faith” group and a gun would come first before faith.

          • Neiman

            If called on I would defend life with my life and if I were in a place where I had a weapon, I would use it if I thought I could save lives. I have not only been a Marine, a police officer, I ran a rescue service and many, many times have faced death to save others and been willing to do whatever it took to save lives.

            It is another thing altogether to fear death, to lack faith in Christ and so carry guns just in case He fails me, that is not faith at all. So, I go around without guns at home or elsewhere and if a life is threatened, I would not hesitate to step in risk my own; but my trust is in Christ; live or die, I am in His hands and if He decides it is my time, a nuclear weapon in my back pocket would not save me and if He did not want me to die, an army equipped with nuclear weapons could not harm me.

          • SusanBeehler

            Thank you for serving our country and sharing your faith.

          • Neiman

            If only I were better about living and sharing my faith as I ought, but I fear I fail more than succeed.

          • SusanBeehler

            Don’t look at it as succeed or failing, look at as growing and sharing.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            Give up the hate and you’re on your way, Old Pal.

          • Neiman

            I have no hate – you do.

            You are not even a Christian, so you are lost.

            You need to give your life to Christ and surrender the demons that possess you.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            You, Old Pal, need to remember just who you really are, Neiman the Hypocrite.

            Neiman 95p · 17 minutes ago

            Remember, you started this Old Gary Racist Muslim Bob, I just hate socialist Americans, you know Democrats, Liberals, those God hating
            folk.

          • Neiman

            You lie as usual, we are not pals, but you hate the truth.

            You lie as usual when you copy paste out of context and absent the full explanations offered over many comments, you do it deliberately because you are a liar like all liberals.

            I guess you are also asking God to give up His hate too? I mean if you are consistent? I have offered many passages wherein God expresses His hatred for sin and for those people that by their lies lead people into sin and hell and promises they will suffer His wrath. So, since I am only imitating Him, if you are not a hypocrite, right now you should ask God to give up His hatred of sin and those that lead people into sin and away from Him, right? Come on Gay Bob, or are you a hypocrite?

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            I’ve never said we’re pals, Old Pal.

            The real Jesus hates the sin.

            You’ve identified those you believe your made up jesus hates and you hate them too.

            Good luck with the real Jesus, Old Pal.

          • Neiman

            You just called me your pal again – twice – LIAR.

            You have rejected Christ, you admitted you are no Christian, now how exactly are you getting into heaven without Him. Why do you refer to Jesus in a positive way when you have rejected His Salvation HYPOCRITE.

            Where is that call by you on God to give up His hate for sin and those sinners that lie (like you) and lead sinners into hell (like you)? You asked me to stop hating these things, but are afraid to ask God to give up His hate – HYPOCRITE.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            Get it through your head, Old Pal, we’re not pals.

            I’m right with God, are you?

          • Neiman

            So you are going to keep lying about me being your pal, making you a liar, liar?

            So, you say I must give up hating sin and those that lead others into sin – away from God in Heaven, but are you not a hypocrite as you will not call on Him to give up His hate – hatred of the same things, right?

            That is the problem, if you have not accepted Jesus as your Savior and Lord and you said you have not, then it is impossible for you to be right with God by rejecting His Salvation in His Son and you are deceived. If I am wrong, show me on what biblical basis you can be saved without saving faith in Jesus, so I can be reproved by the Lord.

            I am born again of His Spirit by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone; and, by His Word, I can never come into Judgment, I can never come into any condemnation and I have eternal life. But, you have not been born again and reject all that I have written here and are under His condemnation. That is the problem – you need Jesus and His salvation or you will suffer in hell without end for your pride. If I am wrong, use the Bible to prove me wrong that I might beset right

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            I’m pretty sure your “oh I’m saved so go to hell” arrogance will not serve you well when you’re face to face with the Big Cheese, Old Pal.

          • Neiman

            Still lying as you call me your pal, you just cannot stop lying can you Gay Bob?

            Still cannot or will not answer how you can get to heaven without being a Christian, that is the same thing as lying, you withhold the fact because you fear exposure here, you fear telling people who you really are, but I have seen your evil face.

            Blasphemy calling God the “Big Cheese” and why, you have no fear of God, which according to God involves hatred of sin. You think you can play games and because you love yourself, He has to love you to and that is narcissism,

            You tell me to give up on hating sin and those sinners that lie (you) and lead (you) people into hell; but when I show you those are the same things God hates, you won’t tell Him to give up on His hate, why is that hypocrite?

            No it is not I am saved so you can go to hell, it is I am saved and unless you admit you are deserving of hell like everyone else, repent and turn to Christ, you will go to hell by your own freewill choice.

          • slackwarerobert

            I have faith a gun will be useful to stop a murderous nut. But obama says church’s have no faith, his word is law, and he says civilians should be BETTER armed than the military. But since you can give the little kiddies booze, lets hope they can carry as well.

          • Neiman

            More nonsensical ravings.

    • http://flamemeister.com flamemeister

      All Jesus would have to do is point his finger & blast the dude, like he did the fig tree.

  • SportsDoc
  • tim johnson

    this is merely a gloss on the scripture that says, “Draw a knife on God and He will draw a knife on you.” James 4:8

    and from the Lord’s Prayer, >..”Lead (LED) us not into temptation, bullet deliver us from evil… . ” …

    and you better mention this is a Misery Sin-Odd church, which maybe goes without mention. Ain’t Martin Luther the spiritual father of Yosemite Sam?

    • Guest Observer

      What is your beef with the LCMS?

      • tim johnson

        no beef… just being good-naturedly hilarious… lighten up, bro……

        LCMSers always hate being confused with ELCAers, so I thought I would set the record straight…. doesn’t the thought of Martin Luther juxtaposed with Yosemite Sam make you smile, a little??

        I’m sure if Dr. Martin had a submachine gun, he would have nailed his 95 theses to the Wittenberg door with .45-cal rounds……

        the whole concealed-carry issue and church raises interesting issues…
        I think Lutherans pose little risk; but the thought of highly Pentecostal types packing heat make me wonder: if things get wild in the aisle, I could see guns falling out of holsters all over the place……
        the other thing is, I think it’s legal to carry an unconcealed gun most places ….so just strap on that Peacemaker and worship the Prince of Peace…probably have plenty of room in your pew, anyhoo….

        • http://sayanythingblog.com Rob

          I wonder if the state’s restrictions on what are, frankly, private organizations making decisions about gun policy on their own property would pass constitutional muster.

    • Neiman

      Yep, this is a good debate here – Christians go ahead and get together to worship Jesus and have faith in Him, but just in case you are wrong and He is a myth or He is out of town that day, better pack some heat. Yep, if that doesn’t build faith in Jesus, nothing will. (Sarcasm intended)

      • slackwarerobert

        Even Jesus attacked criminals in a church with a bench. But he didn’t have to worry about the criminals SHOOTING him. And the pews now are much to heavy to swing at them, even if you unbolt them from the floor. Nothing in the bible says you can’t kill, only you can’t murder. So a gun will insure the scripture is upheld not ignored. If Jesus is against it he can raise the thug from the dead.

        • Neiman

          No He didn’t. He kicked over their small tables and using a small whip of cords swinging in the air, drive them out.

          Th rest of your blasphemous, grossly ignorant remarks are unworthy of comment.

  • tony_o2

    While I support the right for Church leaders to allow parishioners to carry concealed weapons at church, I do not support HB1283 for one reason alone. Concealed carry in churches should be voted on separately from concealed carry in schools. They are different areas, and should be decided on separately.

    In the case of the Church, I support a different bill. Remove the law that makes it a crime to carry in church. Leave that decision up to the individual Churches. If the leaders of a particular Church decide to allow it, then let them. And if others decide not to allow it, then that is their decision. Perhaps we can even leave it a crime to carry a concealed weapon in a church that does not allow it.

  • slackwarerobert

    Good, remember the entire banning guns in church was to protect the clan when they attacked a black church. I don’t like the idea of secret decisions on carrying in a school. How do I know if I am breaking the law if it is a secret?

  • slackwarerobert

    ill hopefully be just the beginning. Next we can hand out bullets with the food and clothing for those that have fallen on hard times and can’t afford to practice to keep there families safe, fed and clothed.

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