Say Anything Blog

Segment should have been titled:

Dueling magalomaniacs!

I’m not a big fan of O’Reilly, Geraldo is the most egocentric, self promoting ass ever on television. His assertions about illegal aliens amounts to reverse racism, a blind support for illegal aliens despite the consequences.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Fixed the title for you Neiman.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Thanks! By the way, I hate to misuse this thread Whistler, but I have tried to connect the link “Register for an Avatar/Reader Blog and the page is blank. I wanted to contact you or Rob to get help about a reader blog, but the link ‘Contact the Author’ doesn’t work either.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Rob says that you’re already registered.

His instructions were on the last bite sized wisdom.

Otherwise his email is . 

Mine surprisingly enough is

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I realize this will make me appear incredibly stupid, but what is this last ‘bite sized wisdom’ you are talking about? I’ll put both your email address in my book right now!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Let’s see if I got this thing right. So if the driver had come legally to the U.S. there was not chance (or less chance) that he had gone drunk driving killing that girl?

(If your answer is “He wouldn’t be here in the first place”, you failed to read my question)

Heraldo has no clue about the immigration debate. Of course you have two ego maniacs yelling at each other, classic stuff. Bill took him to task. The person who killed those girls should do his sentence then be deported to Mexico.

The mayor and the police chief can’t deport a illegal alien the border patrol or ICE has to do it. Illegal Aliens commit way more crimes than legal aliens and citizens.

check out Goon’s World

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

Supreme court has ruled that Sanctuary Cities are illegal. The man that killed the girls is a three time loser and the charges were dropped. That folks should be a crime in itself.

Heraldo didn’t have much credibility with me before now he has none.

Just a side note if you compare and contrast Glen Beck and Bill O’Reilly I think Glen Beck is way more civil and Bill O’Reilly shouts people down and gets really upset.

check out Goon’s World

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

Illegal Aliens commit way more crimes than legal aliens and citizens.

For the record, I believe that in general any illegal alien who commits a crime should be punished and then deported.

As a percentage of the population, illegals commit more crimes than do legals and citizens, by a large margin.  IMO, that’s at least partially because they have no investment in our country the way it is.  They want to remake our country to suit themselves.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

I watched that exchange and while my stannce on the issue is clear (see my last post) I have to say that the shouting match between the two of them was more annoying than instructive.

I don’t think that two adults screaming in each other’s face can get either point across in an effective way. After a few seconds all I hear is the Charley Brown teacher’s voice, “Waah, wah wah wahwahwah.”

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

being in the USA is a Federal Crime so I think really it’s a non starter.

check out Goon’s World

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

Let’s see if I got this thing right. So if the driver had come legally to the U.S. there was not chance (or less chance) that he had gone drunk driving killing that girl?

I think the difference is that illegals already being lawbreakers are much more willing to break our laws.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I don’t think that two adults screaming in each other’s face can get either point across in an effective way. After a few seconds all I hear is the Charley Brown teacher’s voice, “Waah, wah wah wahwahwah.”

No matter what you think about either O’Reilly’s or Geraldo’s style, O’Reilly was right and Geraldo was wrong.  Nothing changes that.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

In your opinion, of course you would, R108.  This was two idiots screaming at each other.  I can only imagine what OReilly screamed when he was faced with his loofah tape recordings.  This was absolutely hilarious. 

The vein in O’Reilly’s head was about to burst and I can imagine his producer yelling in his earpiece to shut the hell up and the other producer yelling in Geraldo’s earpiece to hold on to his moustache and shut the hell up.  The split second calming down of the two of them was just too too funny. 

It certainly my enterainment for the evening as I just happened to be channelsurfing through when the melee began.  LOL.

As a percentage of the population, illegals commit more crimes than do legals and citizens, by a large margin.

Of course they do.  The minute they set foot on American soil they are criminals.  That makes the percentage 100.

Geraldo? OH! You mean Gerald Rivers, the half Jewish, half Puerto Rican non-journalist fuckbag whose opinion no one should be concerned about.

Had me confused for a moment, I thought y’all were talking about a real human being.

As for O’Drunky, you guys take up a collection to cover my hotel and roomservice bill and I will happily kick the shit out of it on live TV. That would be my distinct pleasure.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Thank you Carol.  Logic and clear thinking.  I have had a close friend tell me that their daughter’s car was hit, the occupants were illegal.  No license, no registration, no insurance.  Her insurance ended up paying for everything.  This is what I referr to as freedom.  Freedom to choose, but also accepting personal responsibility for one’s actions.  These illegal aliens—criminals are invading our country and not obeying rules our elected representatives have voted on.  If we don’t do something soon, we will be living in anarchy, facism, or communism.

Communism is evil

Of course they do.  The minute they set foot on American soil they are criminals.  That makes the percentage 100.

I meant in addition to their crime of entering illegally.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

P: None of what you say changes the fact that O’Reilly was right, and Geraldo was wrong.  But then, I don’t subscribe to the leftie “style is more important than substance” value system.  It’s just stupid to shoot the messenger for delivering a true message, even if his presentation isn’t to your satisfaction.  In the end, it’s the information that counts.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Again, R108, in your opinion, which is just that, your opinion.  Just because you say it doesn’t make it so.  But it’s nice to see that you are still on your same old talking points.

Chief RZ:  We had a similar experience.  We went to Reno to visit a dear friend and widow of an Alaska State Trooper who is trying to make her retirement stretch.  She bought herself a decent car and while it was fairly new she, was rear ended by a pick-up carrying a load of illegals.  She was left with a 500.00 bill for her insurance deductible while the driver got off scott free.  The passengers fled the scene immediately.

P: Back at ya!  Everything you wrote is true of you.  It’s not my opinion that I prefer substance over style; it’s my reality.  Illegals bring crime into this country, past their original crime of entering illegally; far in excess of their proportion of the population.  That’s a fact.  Geraldo is in denial of this, and has only the feeble race card to fall back on.  Geraldo, and anyone who supports him on this issue, is just plain wrong.  If you don’t know how much damage the illegals do to the union thugs, you must be dreaming.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Wow, R108, using the old third grade “you do it too” meme is so you.  Just because you claim we are “wrong” because you say so is just so silly.

Wow, R108, using the old third grade “you do it too” meme is so you.  Just because you claim we are “wrong” because you say so is just so silly.

Actually, it was the “you are projecting your behavior and thinking onto me” argument, but that may be beyond your level of knowledge.
The facts prove you wrong.  I can’t believe you are unaware of the disproportionately high crime rate among illegals!  Educate yourself.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Obviously, R108, you refuse to read the above cited report.  I did and it refutes your statements so you are the one who is wrong and blindly stick to your meme.

Puzzle,

Actually, all the cited report proves is how much more difficult it is for law enforcement to identify, capture, prosecute and incarcerate people of whom no official record exists.  As difficult as it may seem to live “underground” for any period of time, it is all the more difficult to identify and arrest such persons.

What you have conveniently forgotten is that their very presence in this country is a violation of federal criminal law.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

puzz, you link to an agitaprop article from an anti-American organization, then get pissy when no one takes you seriously. You ain’t changed.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Let’s see boys:  R108 wrote: 

I can’t believe you are unaware of the disproportionately high crime rate among illegals!  Educate yourself.

So I cite to the report in this thread to prove R108 wrong, which I did, and you boys come out of the woodwork to rationalize why the report is wrong.

You boys are all to predictable, it’s as if I haven’t been gone at all.

Oh and guttermouth, I just can’t believe you are still mourning over your pig. You too ain’t changed.

Bat One, so are you claiming that (other than immigation law violations) that there is no evidence for or against the assertion that there is “disproportionately high crime rate among illegals.”

I’m not sure where you’re driving to on this one.  I do know a lot of these chain letters than go around regarding illegals and crime are based on made up assertions.

I’d be happy to see facts that establish this one way or another.

Any stats that you can come up with will not prove that they commit any more crime than another group.  Only that it gets prosecuted more, just like it does against anybody who is poor.

Hawk, are you trying to claim that poor people are no more likely to commit a crime than any other person?  That’s certainly not a true statement.  Poeverty certainly is linked to crime, and not just to an increased likelihood of prosecution (though that’s true as well, I believe).

I’d be more likely to accept the explanation that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes than the average population due to their relative poverty status.

I agree with Carrick.  The higher crime rate among illegal immigrants is almost certainly a manifestation of their impoverished status.

But that fact doesn’t negate the downright stupidity of letting a bunch of poor criminals flow through our southern border.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Hawk, are you trying to claim that poor people are no more likely to commit a crime than any other person?

No, my claim was that they get prosecuted more.

The higher crime rate among illegal immigrants is almost certainly a manifestation of their impoverished status.

I’d disagree with “almost certainly”. Criminal activity reflects a poverty of the soul, not necessarily the bank account.
Poverty during the Great Depression was high, crime was not commensurately high. Columbian drug lords are not driven by poverty, nor is George Soros…

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

Poverty during the Great Depression was high, crime was not commensurately high.

I’d like to see the numbers to back that up.

Columbian drug lords are not driven by poverty

But the pushers they employ on the streets often are.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would deny a correlation between economic status and crime rates.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I find it hard to believe that anyone would deny a correlation between economic status and crime rates.

You’ve never heard of “poor, but honest”? Or “White collar crime”? (Probably not a lot of poor embezzlers!)
Besides, isn’t that what they tell us about the terrorists (bin Laden notwithstanding) that it’s the crushing poverty that turns them into suicide bombers?
Po’ folks can be honest, rich folks can steal you blind. Folks is folks. The bad ones will be bad no matter how rich they are.

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

Experts love to blame crime on poverty. That’s nonsense! From 1900 to 1929, the nation’s murder rate rose from 1.2 per 1 00,000 of the population to 8.4. However, during parts of the 1930s, when the unemployment rate stood at 37 percent, the murder rate had fallen to 6.3 per 1 00,000 and to 4.7 per 1 00,000 by 1960. After 1960, violent crime rates shot up. By 1993, the murder rate was 9.5 per 100,000, falling to 8.2 in 1995. Rather than poverty causing crime, one might more easily make the case that crime causes poverty.

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

I’d be more likely to accept the explanation that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes than the average population due to their
relative poverty status.

Carrick: Not so.  In fact, illegals are a group that has already selected crime as a way of surviving.  Think about it: A poor guy in Mexico, instead of staying in his native country and trying to change things for the better, decides to enter the neighboring country illegally, as a solution to his problems.  It all follows from that basic way of dealing with things.  That same person is predisposed to turn to crime, even after coming here, as a way of solving his problems here.  He obtains phony papers, hides out in the barrio as a means of escaping detection, and so on.  He drives illegally, has no insurance, and is predisposed to engage in criminal activities, because of the path he has chosen, figuratively and literally.  Think about it.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

A majority of the men in prison came from fatherless families. In some cosmic sense, it may not be entirely their fault that they took the wrong road. But that doesn’t change the fact that it was the wrong road—or make it any less dangerous to turn them loose.

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

P: The key word in my statement was “disproportionately”, which means more than their representation in the population.
In my town(a leftie town, btw) the local politicos admit to having 26% of the imprisoned population as illegals.  They are not even close to 26% of the population here.  That is what “disproportionate” means, btw.  In addition, since lefties lie, the real proportion of illegals imprisoned here is undoubtedly higher than the admitted 26%, but that’s another story.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Columbian drug lords are not driven by poverty

columbian drug lords are now the newest evolution of the counterinsurgency troops of the 1980s. they are brutal killers and slave drivers and the president, Uribe, and his brother formally oversee most of this activity. Bush currently wants to give the country that produces 90% of the cocaine that comes to the US 4 billion even though the current admin are essentially proxy drug lords (Bush just got done paying him a ‘friendly visit’. meanwhile, we cut off drug prevention funding in Venezuela, the large flat country on the top of South America that faces this country, despite the fact that they capture 90% of the product that is captured on the S.American continent, headed north. I know Bush used to do some blow, but I had no idea he was so concerned with propping up the illegal import market like that. perhaps he should resist defoliating the rainforest down there if it is indeed only a token measure to appear tough. ...speaking of illegals and crime…

I couldn’t disagree with you more R108.  There are many many illegals here who have bought homes, started businesses and have raised and educated their American children.  They are law abiding illegals who crossed the border for a better life.  Predisposition to commit crimes because they crossed the border illegally, what hogwash!

They are law abiding illegals...

Welcome to 1984’s doublespeak.

And I couldn’t disagree with Puzzled more.

Being a criminal means you’re willing to commit crimes.

If we boot these illegals out of the country we can let another law abiding person come in from the same country.

Of course this new person is willing to follow the law and will become a better citizen.(or resident)

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Hawk, are you trying to claim that poor people are no more likely to commit a crime than any other person?  That’s certainly not a true statement.  Poeverty certainly is linked to crime,

I think poverty and crime come from the same underlying causes.  Bad morals, a lack of a work ethic, bad education (break up the public school monopoly), drugs, etc. 

As Walter Williams has pointed out that if you finish high school, don’t do drugs, and don’t have children out of wedlock you are unlikely to be in poverty.

It sounds to me that poverty and crime are due to choices that are made.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

By the way, why don’t we have official statistics on crime and the immigration status of the offender?

Is there something that they don’t want us to know?

The bottom line is that every crime committed in this country by an illegal alien should not have been committed.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Whistler, seems like you’re being a bit literal minded here.... you never speed?  Does speeding make people more likely to commit other crimes?

Also, I think you’d be surprised to learn how many people that are in jail are there because of mental illness (drugs are a symptom for them, not the cause).  I know a guy who, when he was 17, broke into a jewelry store, grabbed the goods, then sauntered down the street until he was caught.  Major moment of mania for him.

Proof: Thanks for the data, but unfortunately it doesn’t demonstrate much.  The problem is that many other socioeconomic factors were changing simultaneously with the poverty rate.  “Correlation is not causation” applies here.

And nobody is talking about people going out and blowing themselves up, so that’s not an apt comparison.  We’re talking about somebody robbing the local liquor store....  They may not be nice people, but they would be equally unnice had they graduated from high school, married and were gainfully employed.  Propensity to criminal acts is not the only indicator for poor moral values.

I still say the operative phrase is you can’t tell the measure of a man, until you’ve put him under a load.  Being in poverty is stressful.  Some people react differently to stress than others.  Decent people accept their burden and work to get out of it.  Others break under the stress.

For the most part speeding in most states is a non-criminal violation.  However after one ticket another one in most states is a criminal violation which makes most of us criminals since most of us have violated speed laws on numerous occasions as well as other moving violations. 

So Whistler are you a criminal willing to commit crimes?

Does speeding make people more likely to commit other crimes?

Well speeding and crossing an international border illegally are two different things don’t you think.

On the other hand to go with your analogy, flawed as it may be, I think that people that commit serious crimes are probably more likely to commit serious crimes. 

(For the record I don’t speed on the interstate where the limit is reasonable, other than that I’m an 8 mile an hour over guy)

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Puzzled for the record, I have had a couple minor traffic tickets, but I have not EVER lost a point on my drivers license.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Robert108, there are plenty of people who come north who are craftsmen and masters of their trade.  They leave good jobs in Mexico that have to be filled by immigrants south of the Mexican border.

They come here because they can earn 2-3 times as much and because the borders are completely porous.

A law that is virtually never enforced is one that common people will ignore.

They may not be nice people, but they would be equally unnice had they graduated from high school, married and were gainfully employed.  Propensity to criminal acts is not the only indicator for poor moral values.

I still say the operative phrase is you can’t tell the measure of a man, until you’ve put him under a load.  Being in poverty is stressful.

I think that guy who graduated from high school, got married, didn’t do drugs doesn’t hold up a liquor store the day he’s laid off from the plant.

He’ll find a way to make do without being in crime.

The guy that holds up the liquor store is probably a guy that never really held a job in his whole life.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I still say the operative phrase is you can’t tell the measure of a man, until you’ve put him under a load.  Being in poverty is stressful.  Some people react differently to stress than others.  Decent people accept their burden and work to get out of it.  Others break under the stress.

I liked this statement so much I thought I’d post it again.

TW:

For the record I don’t speed on the interstate where the limit is reasonable, other than that I’m an 8 mile an hour over guy

I think you just said you speed.

And you drive 8 mph over, probably because it isn’t enforced until you’re at least 10 mph over the limit.

My point about laws that don’t get properly enforced applies here.  If paying your taxes was not properly enforced, how many people would do it?

My point about laws that don’t get properly enforced applies here.

I’ll say it again, it’s wrong to consider minor traffic offenses with illegally crossing the border.

Would you dare enter Mexico illegally?  I wouldn’t even enter Canadia easily although that is very very easy to do. 

Now we could get into a big debate why traffic laws are different than laws concerning crimes and national sovereignty.  If you were Dave or freep I’d probably consider that a certainty.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

The point being made Whistler was that people who commit crime will more easily commit additional crimes. So the speeding analogy is appropo.  You have set a standard for your criminal behavior and that is 8 miles over the limit and you don’t speed on the interstate because that limit is “reasonable”.

So can an illegal use your argument that crossing the border for a better life and a better job is “reasonable”?

I knew that someone wouldn’t get it.

OK here’s a quick deal.  About 90% of Americans break some type of traffic law.

On the other hand I’d guess that less than one percent of Americans would cross a border illegally.

Your attempt to create some kind of moral equivalence between speeding and illegally crossing borders ain’t going to work.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Here’s one of those cases that, IMHO, law tracks common sense.  Anglo law distinguishes between malem per se and malem prohibitum: these are, respectively, actions that are criminal because they’re wrong in and of themselves (murder, theft, etal) and actions that are wrong simply because they’re prohibited (speed limits; jaywalking).

Intuitively, illegal immigration fits more comfortably within the class of malem prohibitum acts.  And, since I’m not more likely to steal because I jaywalk (which I do on a daily basis), I doubt that illegally entering the country erodes one’s moral compass.  And empirical studies bear this out: first generation illegals are less likely to be busted than native Americans. (interestingly, their kids are much, much more likely to be busted than their parents.  I don’t know what that means)

I’m intensely anti-illegal immigration, but attacking it on the grounds that illegals are more prone to criminality is logically dubious and empirically incorrect.

TW, when you are barreling down the road in a 2000-lb vehicle, driving at speeds your government thinks are unsafe, you are potentially putting other people’s lives at risk with your behavior.  When somebody saunters across the border and takes up residency in this country, that act in and of itself, is endangering absolutely no one.

So your “minor” offense is potentially a life-threatening act against other people and that’s OK, but somebody “going for a stroll” is not.  Why?  Because we assign valences to one that one act as minor and the other as serious that have nothing to do with the consequences of the two acts.

In any case, Americans would probably cross the border south and north, regardless of the law, if they had any enticement to do so, and if they knew there were practically no chance they would get in trouble for it.

The pattern here, for me, is the law doesn’t properly enforce the borders, anmd when they get here, many end up in poverty.  Poverty then acts as a trigger for people who are predisposed towards criminal acts.  We all agree it doesn’t “turn good people bad”

Carol.  We share similar professions at this time
Proof.  I agree with you.  Many “poor” people are morally bankrupt.  No amount of money can fix this.  The average “poor” person will have collected about one million dollars in taxpayer’s money over 40 years in the form of:  direct welfare, food stamps, free lunch programs, subsidized transportation, medical benefits, housing, post secondary schooling, “school-to-work” programs, SS II and reverse income tax refunds.  The Truth is that they simply do not work nor pull their weight.  They are burdens to society and those who work honestly for a living.

Communism is evil

your government thinks are unsafe,

Actually that’s not the case.  They set the speed limit low below the limit that they think is ‘safe’ because people will speed.

If that weren’t the case than the government employees who are charged with enforcing the law would not be passing me in non emergency situations when I’m doing the speed limit.

if they knew there were practically no chance they would get in trouble for it.

I guess that’s the rub isn’t it?  On the other hand I don’t see that I should be facing consequences for the fact that government employees refused to do their jobs.

To take this back on track, we aren’t talking about massive sweeps to load up the busses with illegal immigrants.  What we are talking about is deporting those illegals that do come in contact with the law. 

And with everything you say, why should we be hassling private businesses when we aren’t willing to kick out illegals when they commit crimes?

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

first generation illegals are less likely to be busted than native Americans.

Source please.

(interestingly, their kids are much, much more likely to be busted than their parents.  I don’t know what that means)

Kids raised by criminals are more likely to be criminals.  That goes for criminals of Swedish backgrounds too.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

So can an illegal use your argument that crossing the border for a better life and a better job is “reasonable”?

No.  They chose to perform an illegal act, rather than trying to improve their own country.  It would be “reasonable” for them to work on improving their home country, rather than invading and exploiting ours.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

And it would reasonable to apply to come here legally.  If there was a labor shortage (which we don’t have due to illegal aliens) then there would be more pressure to hurry up with legal immigration.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Predisposition to commit crimes because they crossed the border illegally, what hogwash!

As usual, you twist words to try to sell your ideology.  What I said was that those people who invade and exploit this country self-select.  They could have chosen to stay home and work to improve their own country.  They chose illegal invasion and exploitation instead.  Get it now?

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

P: I’ll make it simple for you.  If a man robs a bank, then gives some of the money he stole to charity(or union dues), does that make the bank robbing OK, then?
I await your answer.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Here‘s a link to a blog post on the study by Tyler Cowen.

I lived in an illegal Mexican neighborhood for a couple years, and the parents really did seem pretty upstanding (albeit intensely, intensely annoying).  The problem I saw was that they let their kids absolutely run wild in the streets.  No discipline outside of the home, and the parents never instilled any hope in the kids of escaping the barrio.  Combine that with welfare abuse and the noxious gangsta culture of hip-hop and reggaeton, and you get a bunch of little scumbags with an entitlement complex causing mayhem.

Of course not, R108, again with the inane and ill suited analogies.  Just because a person crossed the border illegally does not make everything that person does here moot.  It does not mean that if he works for twenty years, buys a home, raises a family who are american citizens,works a job, he should lose everything he’s worked for.  That is not punishment fitting the crime and is simply unreasonable.
Using your inane example, we wouldn’t take the person’s home and car because he robbed a bank.

There is a point to reasonable penalties.  We don’t sentence a speeder to forfeit his car for speeding.  You all don’t want anything that is reasonable.  For you all deportation of 11 million is the only “reasonable” option.  But you can’t get it done.

It does not mean that if he works for twenty years, buys a home, raises a family who are american citizens,works a job, he should lose everything

Well yes if he bought the home and stuff with what he stole.

Thanks for making it so easy Puzzled.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Using your inane example, we wouldn’t take the person’s home and car because he robbed a bank.

If the bank robber is a legal citizen, he would get considerable prison time.  If he is an illegal, he would get deported.  The real analogy(which went over your head) is that once he committed the original crime, what he did with his ill-gotten gains is irrelevant.  All illegals should be deported, which will take some time, and no more should be allowed to invade and exploit this country.  At the same time, those honest foreigners should be rewarded with a good path to legal immigration.  Better yet, they should work to make their home countries comparable to the US.  Get it now?

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Whistler, Whaaaattttt?  He didn’t steal, oh I know you will argue that the mere fact that he came across the border illegally makes everything he does theft.  But I disagree.  He works for an employer, gets paid for the work he provides.

Not so easy, Witless.

R108,obviously your own analogy went over your head.  He didn’t purchase the home or car with his ill-gotten gains.

The Truth is that they (poor people) simply do not work nor pull their weight. They are burdens to society and those who work honestly for a living.

You’d be a hero to the “social cleansing” death squads in South America.

Whistler said: Well speeding and crossing an international border illegally are two different things don’t you think.

Intuitively, illegal immigration fits more comfortably within the class of malem prohibitum acts.  And, since I’m not more likely to steal because I jaywalk (which I do on a daily basis), I doubt that illegally entering the country erodes one’s moral compass.  And empirical studies bear this out: first generation illegals are less likely to be busted than native Americans. (interestingly, their kids are much, much more likely to be busted than their parents.  I don’t know what that means)

I think you might need to post a source for that one. I doubt they are going to see it your way at DHS/ICE/and the Border Patrol, but also how about the family of the Houston Police officer that gunned down by an illegal alien.

check out Goon’s World

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

So, puzzle, since you think illegal immigration is such a wonderful thing....what do you think about Mexican truckers doing business in this country legally under NAFTA?

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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