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Sunday, July 02, 2006

On Patriotism

Copyright © 2005 by Rodney G. Graves, all rights reserved.

There has been a lot of discussion, debate, and rhetoric of late concerning patriotism and the lack thereof.

Regrettably, we must start with a definition, as the abusers of the English Language have been busy attempting to treat patriot and jingoist as synonyms.

pa·tri·ot·ism: Love of and devotion to one's country.

A simple definition, really. Do we need to examine the definitions of “love” and “devotion” as well? I would hope not… Let us proceed with this as our working definition of patriotism.

We thus see that a patriot (one demonstrating patriotism) loves and is devoted to his or her county. In my estimation, this extends to the point of sacrificing one’s own life and liberties in the interests, and defense, of one’s country.

Stephen Decatur once proposed the toast “Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong.” This is frequently seen in the somewhat corrupted form, “My Country, may she ever be right, but right or wrong, my country.“ Some might claim (indeed some have) that this is an oversimplification of a complex world. They would assert, and indeed have asserted, that such un-questioning patriotism is more akin to jingoism.

This un-questioning patriotism is true to our definition in that it is an expression of love and devotion to one’s country. Such unquestioning devotion can and has been used in the furtherance of causes both just and unjust, moral and immoral. It is the abuse of this form of patriotism which Samuel Johnston characterized as “…the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

Can one then love their country while recognizing that, as a human institution, our country can be wrong? Certainly. Would anyone who has seriously read from the history of these United States seriously claim that our history does not include incidents both wrong and egregiously wrong? I certainly wouldn’t. Let us then define the rational patriot as those who recognize these flaws and who love their country no less for them.

This rational patriotism was perhaps best related by Senator Carl Schurz as: “Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.” The unstated underpinning here is that a patriot, while recognizing a wrong on the part of his beloved nation, works to convince his fellow citizens of that error and to correct it.

And what do we make of the case of our Founding Fathers? They were subjects of the Crown and owed allegiance to the same. I would further argue that all were, in the earlier portions of their lives, patriots of the United Kingdom. Yet they found a new identity in a new nation and transferred their patriotism to that new entity. They explicitly set out their reasons for doing so in the Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world…



This was a sharp dividing line. In issuing this Declaration the Founding Fathers renounced their former loyalties and patriotism. In so doing they implicitly acknowledged that they were in rebellion against their former sovereign, and explicitly acknowledged that the price of failure was death: “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”

A fancy way of saying what Benjamin Franklin is reputed to have wryly observed: “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

When, then, does the recognition of wrongdoing depart from patriotism?

I would start by saying that an expression of loathing towards the United States of America, its government, or its people cannot be reconciled with love and devotion towards the nation. Nor can one share a divided patriotism towards more than one nation.

Every man has a right to one country. He has a right to love and serve that country and to feel that it is absolutely his country and that he has in it every right possessed by anyone else. It is our duty to require the man of German blood who is an American citizen to give up all allegiance to Germany wholeheartedly and without on his part any mental reservation whatever. If he does this it becomes no less our duty to give him the full rights of an American, including our loyal respect and friendship without on our part any mental reservation whatever. The duties are reciprocal, and from the standpoint of American patriotism one is as important as the other.


Nor can a stated love and devotion to an ideal of what the United States could or should be count as patriotism. One who would “…pledge allegiance to the America that can be.” has failed to love their country, warts and all. This is not to say there is no room for improvement, nor that we should cease trying to make our union more perfect. Rather, it is a nod to reality; Governments are creations of men, and are thus no more perfect than their creators. Perfection, while a laudable goal, is a useless standard of comparison.

Finally, let us consider actions.

No matter how loud and repeated the protestations of patriotism may be, acting against the interests of the United States can never be considered patriotic. It was once well understood that politics stopped at America’s shores. That whatever policy differences might rage domestically, a single voice was required in our dealings with the rest of the world. To the extent this is no longer the case, we, as a people, are indeed failing in both patriotism and common sense.

Comments

Avatar for Puzzlefeet

You, sir, are no patriot, you are a blog dictator.  You are precisely doing what you claim to abhor.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 04:22 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

diane says, No one who censors others freedom of speech has any business talking about love of country or devotion to country.

They’re not connected at all.

Unless you’re saying that the hundreds of spam comments we get here at this blog daily should be posted and if they aren’t, we have no business proclaiming love of country. After all,..we censor those spam comments out.

In any regard, you have freedom of speech. What you don’t have is absolute freedom of speech at someone else’s personal property. To speak here is a privilege.

Puzzlefeet says, You, sir, are no patriot, you are a blog dictator. You are precisely doing what you claim to abhor.

Oh good grief. Again - they are not connected. This blog is personal property and you are a guest here. Nothing more, nothing less.

likwidshoe on July 2, 2006 at 04:22 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

Wouldn’t it be terrible if these guys set up their OWN blogs and talked among themselves. 

Then if they get censored they’ve got a complaint.

Bunch of whiners if you ask me.  (Not that anyone would).

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 04:27 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

This isn’t Rodney’s blog, but leave it to you righties to defend the indefensible.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 04:44 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

diane said, As I understood it, we are all just posters here except Rob. Did I misunderstand?

Now you’re getting closer to the truth. You and everybody else here is just a poster. In other words, we are guests in Rob’s “home” and hence have no absolute freedom of speech.

Puzzlefeet said, This isn’t Rodney’s blog, but leave it to you righties to defend the indefensible.

Heh. Whatever. Funny considering that I turned the comments back on. Also funny considering that this blog is personal property and there is nothing “indefensible” about upholding personal property rights.

likwidshoe on July 2, 2006 at 04:44 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

diane gets it, It would follow, then, that only Rob has the right to govern what is said in his ‘home’.
Not a houseguest.

True that. You nailed it.

He has, however, given a couple of us limited rights and trusts us to make the distinction. This mostly comes into play for spam though and other shit that we would rather not deal with. (Seriously - if I never have to see another spam ad for some illicit prescriptions or some truely sick porn, I’d enjoy the blog a bit more.)

likwidshoe on July 2, 2006 at 04:54 pm
Avatar for TwoHotel9

Come on, gang, you know full well the 1st amendmant gives Dhimi diane the right to plagarize anyone’s intellectual property and if you try to stop it you are a mean, evil, nasty boogerhead. And now to the topic, nice piece Rodney. I hope you don’t mind me printing 20 or 30 copies and passing them around. Got a rifle shoot on the 4th and several people there will appreciate it. And don’t be surprised if some turn up in Company Orderly and Rec Rooms in Afghanistan,Iraq, and northern Central Africa. And yes, Dhimi and puzzle, they will be fully credited to the author. That being the obverse of the coin that is Freedom of Speech.

TwoHotel9 on July 2, 2006 at 04:58 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

So Lik, Rodney didn’t turn the comments back on, you did.  Thank you for doing that, it is greatly appreciated.

I do find it interesting that Rodney writes the following:  “The unstated underpinning here is that a patriot, while recognizing a wrong on the part of his beloved nation, works to convince his fellow citizens of that error and to correct it.” I don’t believe that I have heard one “leftie” or “democrat” express hatred for this country.  I certainly have heard those same “lefties” and “democrats” “recognizing a wrong” and working “ to convince his fellow citizens of that error and to correct it.”

I have to wonder who the true patriots are.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 05:01 pm

Puzzlefeet:

So Lik, Rodney didn’t turn the comments back on, you did. Thank you for doing that, it is greatly appreciated.

Did I miss some excitement?  I’ve been in the field this weeken.

Carrick on July 2, 2006 at 05:12 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

Interesting post Rodney. I suppose it all comes down to what comprises the “country”...slavish devotion to the government in power wouldn’t constitute patriotism in my book. It’s a complicated thing actually...full of nuance...it’s making me think anyway which means you’re doing your job. Well done.

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 05:13 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

jinx!

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 05:16 pm
Avatar for robert108

MikeA: You reveal your partisan bias when you say, “slavish” devotion.  You may sneer at patriotism, and you are entitled to do that, but our nation wasn’t built on that sort of cynicism. I’m devoted to my country, even when Clinton was trying to take it to the left.  I wasn’t devoted to him.  Your generalizations do you no honor.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 05:16 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

r108...I happen to like the phrase..."slavish devotion” just sounds good when you say it aloud. I certainly don’t sneer at patriotism however although I understand that your hackles are raised by the questioning of assumptions.

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 05:20 pm
Avatar for robert108

"No one who censors others freedom of speech has any business talking about love of country or devotion to country. Freedom of speech is a fundamental freedom and must be respected.”

You don’t respect Rodney’s freedom of speech.  Neither do any of the leftie blogs.  Just try to post something on one of them supporting the President or any of the founding principles of America, on any thread by any commenter.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 05:21 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

jinx again!

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 05:21 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

jinx thrice!

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 05:22 pm
Avatar for robert108

MikeA: Not at all; just agendized partisan smears of patriotism.  I like the sound of “leftie liars” myself, but only use it when it applies.  Nice try at wiggling out, though.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 05:23 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

MikeAdamson - what is with the “jinx” comments? Did I miss some kind of inside joke or something?

likwidshoe on July 2, 2006 at 05:27 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

r108...you call that wiggling and an agendized partisan smear of patriotism? I’m tempted to characterise your assessment as partisan in itself although I know that leads us down a path that neither of us have much interest in exploring so pretend I didn’t suggest it. wink

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 05:29 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

lik...same timestamp on comments. Small things amuse small minds.

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 05:30 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

lik...same timestamp on comments. Small things amuse small minds.

Ahhh! Well,..this blog only goes down to the minute. I used to get amused by the same thing back when I commented regularly at K5. There it is down to the second.

likwidshoe on July 2, 2006 at 05:32 pm

I don’t believe that I have heard one “leftie” or “democrat” express hatred for this country.

The Lefties here condemn America with faint praise.

I have yet to see a leftist here say a single goddam good thing about America.

Not one - and so they are not patriots in my opinion, because if you have no praise whatsoever for your country you cannot possibly be a patriot, period.

Ken McCracken on July 2, 2006 at 05:55 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

Well, Ken, obviously you and I have a different definition of “patriot.” I don’t have “blind patriotism” like you do.  I love my country, we have done some great things for this country and the world.  But to say that we cannot speak out against the policies of our government is not patriotism, and it is certainly not what being a patriot is all about. 

I actually like the line Rodney wrote above:  “This rational patriotism was perhaps best related by Senator Carl Schurz as: “Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.” The unstated underpinning here is that a patriot, while recognizing a wrong on the part of his beloved nation, works to convince his fellow citizens of that error and to correct it.”

I am proud of the fact that this country values education, provides for its neediest citizens through Social Security and other safety net programs like Medicaid and Medicare. I am proud that we have free speech that allows the burning of the flag as well as the flying high of our flag.  I am proud of our justice system that allows a defendant the right to face his/her accusers.  I am proud of all that this country has achieved in its short 225 year history.

And I am equally proud that our constitution allows for the the redress of our grievances from our government.

too bad Ken, you don’t believe that.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 06:26 pm
Avatar for robert108

MikeA: Yes, when you say “slavish” devotion when you are referring to patriotism, and then say later that you just like the sound of it, I see a partisan smear of patriotism and then an attempt to wiggle out of having to admit that you did it.  Nothing too complex there.  If you meant otherwise, please explain.
You might make a countercharge of partisanship on my part, but I merely called you on yours, and didn’t make any partisan statement.  Do you consider “slavish” complimentary in some way?  I took it as denigration of patriotism, along with your assertion that it was nothing more than simply following one leader, whom you don’t like.  I understand your negative attitude, but I have been a patriot through a number of Presidents, and so your “slavish” adjective is offensive.  Loving my country doesn’t mean that I hate any other country, although I wasn’t all that fond of the Soviet Union.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 06:28 pm
Avatar for robert108

P: All very high-sounding stuff, and I might be inclined to believe that you really mean it…
Then I remember that you want to disempower the majority in this country that voted for our President and his leadership.  You would take away the freedom of that majority to have the leader they elected by vesting enormous power in unelected “news” corporations and judges, in order to impose your minority rule on the rest of us.  Your claim of patriotism rings hollow.  You think it’s patriotic to deprive us of our right to have the President we elected.  You want to pick and choose which rights you will allow us to have, and you want to define those rights to favor your minority agenda.  You want to overturn the votes of the majority by hyping agendized polls as “news” or even “facts”.  That is not patriotism, it’s fascism.  You think you are smarter than the rest of us, and so we should let you run things. 

BTW, that is my definition of a leftie.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 06:36 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Rogert 108 states:"Then I remember that you want to disempower the majority in this country that voted for our President and his leadership.” Now if Iremember correctly Bush won through the electoral college. Kerry got the majority vote.

ellinas on July 2, 2006 at 06:51 pm
Avatar for Puzzlefeet

By the way, what you believe is of little consequence to me.  I know what I believe and that is what matters most to me.  It is you who think you know more than the rest of us.  Just because we don’t believe the same way you do, we are Fascists and it is you who are the true American.  What a bunch of bunk. But then you fit my definition of a rightie, so I guess we are even.

That is why there can be no “consensus” with you.

Puzzlefeet on July 2, 2006 at 06:54 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

ellinas

Now if Iremember correctly Bush won through the electoral college. Kerry got the majority vote.

ROTFLMAO

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 06:54 pm
Avatar for robert108

ellinas: When you try to insult someone, at least get the spelling of the name right, and get the 2004 election results right.  Otherwise, you simply sound ridiculous.  GW won both the electoral college(which elects the President, by the Constitution), and the popular vote.  You “patriots” on the left want to pick and choose what parts of the Constitution you want to follow.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 06:57 pm
Avatar for robert108

P: No, you are fascists(small “f") because you want rule of the majority by minority elite.  Unions are fascist by nature.  What is your definition of a “rightie”, then?

BTW, It takes everyone involved to make a consensus, not just me.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 07:00 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

How long ago was the election?  Like 20 months ago and he has no clue about the results.

In this day and age when darn near every fact is at your fingertips!

Too freakin funny.

The Whistler on July 2, 2006 at 07:02 pm

Well, Ken, obviously you and I have a different definition of “patriot.” I don’t have “blind patriotism” like you do. I love my country, we have done some great things for this country and the world. But to say that we cannot speak out against the policies of our government is not patriotism, and it is certainly not what being a patriot is all about.

I didn’t say that you “cannot speak out against the policies of our government” and I would appreciate it in the future if you didn’t put words in my mouth and accuse me of things I didn’t even say.

Of course you can speak out against policies, that is what the First Amendment is for. But constantly speaking out, dissenting, and criticizing without having genuine love in your heart for the nation and having a willingness to express it outwardy and openly once in a while is not patriotism - it is whining.

Ken McCracken on July 2, 2006 at 07:10 pm
Avatar for robert108

"Robert, you know very little about what we are.
We are citizens with one vote, just like you. You can call us anything you like, of course, if that’s what gets you up and running.”

“By their fruits ye shall know them.”

I know about you because of what you post here.  The vile and insulting language you use against everyone who disagrees with you, the raging hatred of the President and his administration, the hatred of Israel, our main ally in the Middle East, your description of your childhood traumas, and your dishonesty in discussion.  That is more than enough.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 07:22 pm

Come on Dhiane, on this Fourth of July weekend, let’s get a list from you of the things you love about America.

Let’s see you write “I love America”.

Ken McCracken on July 2, 2006 at 07:25 pm
Avatar for robert108

Yes, diane, stand up and submit a post on what you love about America, then we can comment on your values, just like you comment on everyone else’s.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 07:27 pm
Avatar for WOOF

Inalienable Rights.
Those are what a patriot defends.

Those wrapped in the flag are afraid of matches.

WOOF on July 2, 2006 at 07:32 pm

I LOVE America. I love the Constitution (don’t say it, Diane..just keep going), I love the party system, I love the one person/one vote, I love the opportunities. I love America in its essence.

Bravo Diane!

Ken McCracken on July 2, 2006 at 07:34 pm

Diane, one of the great things about our country is that it is institutionally strong enough to survive adversity.

No one person, movement or branch of government is strong enough to destroy it. I know you hate Bush and think he is ruining the country, but even if he was a horrible president (I think he is a great president) not even he could wreck it.

We have survived world wars, depressions, secession, bad politicians, bad presidents and bad judges, bad ideas and bad plans.

America endures.

Ken McCracken on July 2, 2006 at 07:44 pm
Avatar for robert108

"And I love that we can dissent here, even though by doing so, in some places, we are treated as pariahs. I never thought that would happen and I’ve never seen people so mean and angry in America...”

If you want to see mean and angry people who treat all those who disagree with them as pariahs, go to the leftie blogs.  They don’t even pretend to love America, as you sometimes do.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 08:48 pm
Avatar for robert108

"You’ve been piecemealing me ever since I arrived.”

Another lie; that is your tactic.  You just used it a few days ago to completely distort what I said.  I have noticed that lefties usually accuse others of what they do themselves.

robert108 on July 2, 2006 at 08:51 pm
Avatar for MikeAdamson

r108..."slavish devotion to the government” quite clearly does not denigrate patriotism but merely describes a false patriotism. I’m glad that you love your country but it’s a pity that you are so quick to question others’ love of country simply because they do not share your political outlook.

MikeAdamson on July 2, 2006 at 10:59 pm
Avatar for realitybasedbob

thank you Mike

realitybasedbob on July 2, 2006 at 11:02 pm

r108..."slavish devotion to the government” quite clearly does not denigrate patriotism but merely describes a false patriotism.

A ‘false patriot’ or ‘faux patriot’ properly defined is one who pretends to be a patriot. If one genuinely loves this country, but is uninformed or only loves it for emotional reasons, it is genuine patriotism none the less, and you shouldn’t question what lies in their heart.

You can question what lies in their brain about why they are patriots, but that does not make them ‘false’.

Ken McCracken on July 2, 2006 at 11:40 pm
Avatar for Rodney Graves

Ken McCracken states:

...one of the great things about our country is that it is institutionally strong enough to survive adversity.

No one person, movement or branch of government is strong enough to destroy it. I know you hate Bush and think he is ruining the country, but even if he was a horrible president (I think he is a great president) not even he could wreck it.

We have survived world wars, depressions, secession, bad politicians, bad presidents and bad judges, bad ideas and bad plans.

America endures.

The United States of America not only endures, it thrives.  The United States of America continues to spread liberty and prosperity, and pays tbe blood price to do so.  It remains the “Shining City on the Hill” that Ronald Reagan spoke so eloquently of.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Rodney Graves on July 3, 2006 at 01:37 am
Avatar for Rodney Graves

2H9,

Feel free to pass it along (with attribution and links) to anyone you care to.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Rodney Graves on July 3, 2006 at 01:48 am
Avatar for TwoHotel9

Thanks! I linked it to a string of people, hopefully they will comment here instead of lurking as usual. Shy people make me itch.

TwoHotel9 on July 3, 2006 at 04:23 am
Avatar for Dave

In my estimation, this extends to the point of sacrificing one’s own life and liberties in the interests, and defense, of one’s country.

Sacrificing individual liberty in pursuit of the State is a virtue--a sign of patriotism? Why, by that standard, Russian Communists were the most patriotic people in world history.

That’s a disgusting commment, and, if it will be your definition of “patriotism,” I, and all like-minded people who put the freedom of the individual above all else, will most certainly reject it.

Dave on July 3, 2006 at 09:50 am
Avatar for robert108

Dave: I case you haven’t noticed, we are at war.  That does require some sacrifice on the part of the citizenry for a greater good-victory over an enemy that is sworn to destroy us.  Without that victory, there are no “rights” at all.  Just go to Iran, and demand your “rights”.  See what happens to you.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 09:56 am
Avatar for diane

That was most likely how the average German citizens justified doing what they did, Robert108.

diane on July 3, 2006 at 10:04 am
Avatar for diane

Written by some true patriots courtesy of rbb’s post in another thread:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, having its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient suffrance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.

realitybasedbob on July 2, 2006 at 1:26 PM

diane on July 3, 2006 at 10:07 am
Avatar for Dave

I case you haven’t noticed, we are at war. That does require some sacrifice on the part of the citizenry for a greater good-victory

Absolutely not. But don’t take my word for it…

Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”

Our soldiers chose to go to Iraq. They did not go so they could die, sacrificing their lives for their country. They went to Iraq to kill terrorists. It’s not a “sacrifice"--they get paid rather handsomely for it (financially and otherwise). Their decisions are motivated entirely by self-interest: by a self-interest in liberty, a value placed above all others in the soldier’s mind. By fighting in Iraq he increases the odds that he will live in freedom--and so he goes.

Dave on July 3, 2006 at 10:08 am
Avatar for Rodney Graves

Dave,

The United States is defended by volunteers who have placed themselves under authority which does indeed restrict their essential liberties and indeed some of their constitutionally guaranteed rights.  You thus seem to be insinuating that these brave men and women are not really patriots, and are instead more closely related to the former thralls of the most murderous ideology in the history of man.

An interesting position, to say the least.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Rodney Graves on July 3, 2006 at 10:15 am
Avatar for robert108

Dave: Your irrelevant unattributed quote from Gen Patton aside, the sacrifice to which I was referring is the sacrifice of some of our “rights” in time of war.  The right to speak freely in public is restricted by the need for national security.  Your implication that our military goes to war for money is insulting, and completely wrong.  I don’t expect you to know that, but you might have a glimmer of awareness that there is a whole other reality outside your bleeding heart leftie bubble.  The self-interest part is partially true, I’ll give you that.  What you are incapable of understanding is that putting one’s life on the line for the good of the country is the ultimate patriotic act.  It is a sacrifice of self-interest, and is more significant than any of your cynicism can contemplate.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 10:15 am
Avatar for Rodney Graves

Or, as one more eloquent than I put it:

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand

Between their loved homes and the war’s desolation!

Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land

Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,

And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.”

And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave

O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Rodney Graves on July 3, 2006 at 10:21 am
Avatar for diane

’When our cause it is just’.  That’s the problem with this war.  There is no just cause because Iraq did not invade us or strike us.  That’s probably the root of the mess this has become.

diane on July 3, 2006 at 10:29 am
Avatar for robert108

diane: Nazi Germany never invaded or attacked us, either.  Do you maintain that our cause in WWII wasn’t just?  Please explain.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 10:30 am
Avatar for Rodney Graves

robert108,

Please don’t feed the troll.  Reward it with the attention it deserves (none) and reserve your time and energy for disputants of the rational variety.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Rodney Graves on July 3, 2006 at 10:35 am
Avatar for diane

Sure, be happy to.  Entirely different situation.  We have joined conflicts in the past and the cause may or may not have been just.
In World War II, Germany had started the war.

In the war on Iraq, Iraq was doing nothing to us or anyone else at the time our undeclared war did a pre-emptive shock and awe attack on them.

diane on July 3, 2006 at 10:37 am
Avatar for likwidshoe

In the war on Iraq, Iraq was doing nothing to us or anyone else at the time our undeclared war did a pre-emptive shock and awe attack on them.

You’ve been explained time and time again that this statement of yours isn’t true. You’ve been explained how it isn’t true.

So are you dense, willfully ignorant or do you have a bad short term memory?

likwidshoe on July 3, 2006 at 10:40 am
Avatar for Rodney Graves

likwidshoe,

It is an ill-liberal, ill-educated, unpersuasible troll that is best ignored.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Rodney Graves on July 3, 2006 at 10:47 am
Avatar for robert108

diane: Good point.  Nazi Germany went to war against our allies.  Saddam invaded our ally, Kuwait, and threatened another ally, Saudi Arabia.  He was sponsoring terrorist suicide bombers in Palestine, had terrorist training camps in Iraq, and was in possession of WMD and was waiting for the lifting of sanctions to resume his WMD program.  He violated many UN sanctions, and showed no signs of ever honoring them.  We went against Nazi Germany with less reason, actually.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 10:53 am
Avatar for diane

Neither, lik.  You are wrong.  Rodney G. Graves, insulting because of lack of substantive rebuttal.

diane on July 3, 2006 at 10:54 am
Avatar for The Whistler

Robert to be fair, at least the Nazi’s had the balls to declare war on us after their ally bombed us at Pearl Harbor.

The Whistler on July 3, 2006 at 10:55 am
Avatar for realitybasedbob

How sad is it to see Rod getting completely ignored with his don’t feed the trolls meme.

realitybasedbob on July 3, 2006 at 10:55 am
Avatar for diane

Whatever lets you sleep at night, Robert.

diane on July 3, 2006 at 10:57 am
Avatar for diane

at least the Nazi’s had the balls to declare war on us after their ally bombed us at Pearl Harbor.

Since we had no formal declaration of war on Iraq, does that mean we have no balls?

diane on July 3, 2006 at 10:58 am
Avatar for realitybasedbob

Ya know, I just used “meme”. I have some idea of what it means but no idea if it is a real word.

A little help please?

realitybasedbob on July 3, 2006 at 10:59 am
Avatar for robert108

Rodney was provoked.  By diane’s logic, that makes whatever he does in return OK, like the Palestinians.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 11:01 am
Avatar for diane

How sad is it to see Rod getting completely ignored with his don’t feed the trolls meme.

He’s still pushing the ‘ill-educated’ thing though.  It’s sad that he associates a college degree with intellectualism or belief validation and right to contribute on an equal basis.  But then he makes bad associations frequently.

diane on July 3, 2006 at 11:03 am
Avatar for robert108
robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 11:04 am
Avatar for robert108

"Whatever lets you sleep at night, Robert.”

How perceptive of you, diane.  Knowing the truth is great for getting a good night’s sleep.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 11:06 am

Robert108:

How perceptive of you, diane. Knowing the truth is great for getting a good night’s sleep.

And living with truth rather than self-constructed lies is conducive to good mental health, btw.  To live in an internal world that is in dissonance with the external one leads to misery.

Carrick on July 3, 2006 at 11:12 am

RBB: Also see this on memes

Carrick on July 3, 2006 at 11:12 am
Avatar for diane

Or, Carrick, in the case of some: Ignorance is bliss.

(And lack of a college degree does not ignorance make.) wink

diane on July 3, 2006 at 11:15 am
Avatar for likwidshoe

Or, Carrick, in the case of some: Ignorance is bliss.

So why aren’t you happier?

likwidshoe on July 3, 2006 at 11:20 am
Avatar for realitybasedbob

Well, thank you very much gentlemen for you help in my quest for knowledge.

…memeticists speak of memes as discrete units… A meme could consist of a single newly-coined word, or a meme could consist of the entire speech in which that word was first uttered.

Memes, good or bad?

realitybasedbob on July 3, 2006 at 11:22 am
Avatar for ellinas

Robert 108 correctly states: “He violated many UN sanctions, and showed no signs of ever honoring them.” However there is another country that is doing the same but has not received the same treatment.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 01:47 pm
Avatar for robert108

Who also invaded his neighbor and threatened to invade another? Who also paid bounties to the families of suicide bombers? Who funded terrorist training camps in his own country?  Just asking.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 01:49 pm

Memes, good or bad?

That is like asking whether language is good or bad.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Ken McCracken on July 3, 2006 at 01:54 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Patriotism is derived from the greek word “patris” and “patriotis” One’s love and devotion to one’s fatherland does not extend to it’s elected office holders. A true patriot has a responsibility to speak out against their government if said government consists of schmucks,ignorant hicks,crooks, etc, etc, with no regard to party affiliation. As far as Iraq is concerned the left and the right wings will never agree. In this case the left wing politicians have shown to be spineless schmucks, and this is why IMO the right wing is able to call them anti USA for their unprincipled position on Iraq i.e. “trying to have it both ways” So to end this endless debate y’all should agree that y’all have different views of what America is or what it should be, and allow history to paint on this canvas many years from now, when y’all are gone and are no longer relevant, provided that the republican policies on global warming end the war on terror prior to us winning it.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 02:11 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Who also invaded his neighbor and threatened to invade another? Who also paid bounties to the families of suicide bombers? Who funded terrorist training camps in his own country? Just asking.
robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 4:49 PM

No. The country that I am refering to, did no such thing. You are correct. However they and a country were apartheid was the law of the land codeveloped WMD’s with impunity.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 02:21 pm
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”...a country were apartheid was the law of the land...”

You mean South Africa?

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 02:23 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Yes sir. I do mean South Africa. But what I’m realy reffering to is Israel.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 02:30 pm

Well I hope you aren’t insinuating that Israel is an apartheid state, because it isn’t. Arabs can be full Israeli citizens, with the right to vote, and the right to form political parties, which they have done. Minorities never had those rights under real apartheid in South Africa.

Ken McCracken on July 3, 2006 at 02:36 pm
Avatar for robert108

Is Israel supporting worldwide terrorism against the US?  I didn’t get the memo.  It is also untrue that “apartheid is the law of the land” in Israel.  That was the part that threw me off.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 02:37 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Ken McCracken Please take your time reading my posts. Never accused Israel of being an apartheid state.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 02:39 pm

Yes sir. I do mean South Africa. But what I’m realy reffering to is Israel.

I think you need to be clearer in what you write.

Ken McCracken on July 3, 2006 at 02:41 pm
Avatar for ellinas

robert108 says:Is Israel supporting worldwide terrorism against the US? I didn’t get the memo. It is also untrue that “apartheid is the law of the land” in Israel. That was the part that threw me off. Forgive me for not being clear. Robert I was merely trying to answer your statement about the U.N. resolutions on Iraq by saying that Israel does not abide by them (the resolutins) either.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 02:46 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Oops!!!!!!!robert108 says:Is Israel supporting worldwide terrorism against the US? I didn’t get the memo. It is also untrue that “apartheid is the law of the land” in Israel. That was the part that threw me off.” Forgive me for not being clear. Robert I was merely trying to answer your statement about the U.N. resolutions on Iraq by saying that Israel does not abide by them (the resolutions) either.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 02:48 pm
Avatar for ellinas

"Yes sir. I do mean South Africa. But what I’m realy reffering to is Israel.
I think you need to be clearer in what you write.

Ken McCracken on July 3, 2006 at 5:40 PM”
South Africa practiced apartheid, Israel did not abide by U.N. resolutions, and the two countries corroborated on weapon development.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 02:53 pm

Yes, but that does not mean Israel is an apartheid state.

Ken McCracken on July 3, 2006 at 02:55 pm
Avatar for robert108

ellinas:  Isn’t it true that the UN resolutions Saddam was ignoring and the ones that Israel ignores are completely different?  Not only that, but any equivalence between Saddam’s Iraq and Israel is tenuous at best.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 02:56 pm
Avatar for robert108

Instead of “tenuous”, I should have said “ephemeral”.  Sorry.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 02:58 pm
Avatar for The Whistler

Plus those resolutions against Isreal seem to me to be a bit unjust.

The Whistler on July 3, 2006 at 03:01 pm
Avatar for robert108

TW: Absolutely right.  The UN has often been the tool of Islamic terrorists in times past.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 03:03 pm
Avatar for ellinas

"Yes, but that does not mean Israel is an apartheid state.”
Ken McCracken on July 3, 2006 at 5:55 PM
I would never say, or accuse Israel of being an apartheid state. Let me say that loud and clear: ISRAEL IS NOT AN APARTHEID STATE.
And for the record I support what Israel is doing right now truing to free the corporal. A civilized government the Palestinians do not have. A good government would have reacted by going after the terrorist abductors and the Hamas government did not do that. So they (the terrorists) are reaping what they sowed.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 03:04 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Plus those resolutions against Isreal seem to me to be a bit unjust.

TW: Absolutely right. The UN has often been the tool of Islamic terrorists in times past.
OK then. Agreed. We pick and choose what resolutions we enforce.

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 03:11 pm

Huge difference on the resolutions against Saddam and against Israel - the resolutions against Saddam came from the Security Council, signed off by (or abstained from by) Britain, France, China, Russia, and the U.S.

The resolutions against Israel are merely General Assembly resolutions, written by Cuba, Syria, Iran, Zimbabwe, Libya, etc. and aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.

Ken McCracken on July 3, 2006 at 03:22 pm
Avatar for ellinas

Ken you are wearing me out. We disagree on this subject, and I’ll say that I respectfully disagree with you. But may I ask, what you thought of my post on patriotism?

ellinas on July 3, 2006 at 03:29 pm
Avatar for robert108

ellinas: When you make an equivalence, as you did, between both South Africa and Israel with Saddam’s Iraq, there has to be some substance to the equivalence.  I can say that you are like a serial killer(pick one) because you both ate potato chips, for instance.  Is that equivalence meaningful in any way?  It is most likely true, but so what?  That is what Ken and I are doing; questioning the validity and meaning of the equivalence you made.  This is another issue from disagreement.

robert108 on July 3, 2006 at 03:41 pm
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