MikeAdamson:

I’m disappointed that so many buy into this “ends justify the means” mentality but it just goes to show that even conservatives are Leninists now.

Water boarding, uncomfortable postures, sleep deprivation and other techniques used may make you feel queasy in your little tummy, but that doesn’t make them immoral.

No body is being deliberately maimed, nobody’s life or health is being put at risk.

If you’re going to talk about trauma, the very act of being imprisoned for 5 years probably has a bigger effect than a few weeks of intensive interrogation on most prisoners. Does that make imprisonment tantamount to torture?

I’ve never seen a single liberal address that question. Why not?

The ends don’t always justify the means, but they get factored in during any moral equation. My biggest problem with them is the ends may not be all that favorable (i.e., do we really get useful actionable intelligence from coercive techniques?)

By the way, what we can say factually is we gathered actionable intelligence from those detainees.

It’s quite a leap to go from there to claiming that had a particular interrogation technique not been available that the intelligence would never have been gathered. In fact, I kind of have to call bullshit on that.

There’s plenty of evidence that the more forceful interrogation methods led to massive reams of useless drivel. Seem KSM and his semi-infinite lists of “crimes” for an example of that.

Sparkie:

we don’t have a choice now because your pols fucked up so bad. keep blaming everyone else though, i’m sure you guys will be a viable party again in like 25 years.

You’re fantasizing that we ever really had a choice.

These people are coming at us ultimately because our culture works better than theirs, and they blame us for that. And we are financing them to do it by buying their oil.

Everything else, in my view, is just window dressing.

Who’s pols is responsible for us being dependent on middle east oil again?

Oil is the key fact that drives the current east-west conflict. “Hatred towards us” because we don’t always behave morally would hold some water if they treated each other any better than they do.

How they treat each other is critical to the equation because it demonstrates how little they really value human life.

They aren’t like us. They think very differently than we do, because their cultural reference is very different than ours. Quit trying shoe horn everything into some namby-pamby liberal “everything is my fault” world view. Most things are not our fault, nor even within our power to change. (At least not easily.)

I think liberals prefer to blame America for everything, because they find the alternative too odious to comprehend.

No doubt Los Angeles, California residents are delighted to know America no longer interrogates, I am sure they will sleep comfortably at night knowing enemies from around the world ie Iran, Venezuela, Russia, North Korea, China as well as the numerous radical Islamic groups such as Al Queda are busy preparing to provide all LA residents permanent peace of mind.

President Obama says his values are important so if blowing LA California to bits is the sacrifice then I am sure Kingdom Hollywood will be willing to sacrifice their own lives for the benefit of their President Obama and his values.

This loser hasn’t been in office for a 100 days yet. Has yet to be tested. We have no fucking idea how he would deal with a 911 situation. And here he the fuck is, talking about prosecuting the members of the previous administration for “torture” techniques.

This man is dangerous. I can only hope that his threats to prosecute gets thrown back in his face, and he is so politically shamed and embarassed about it, he can never recover.

I am sure the Japanese obtained excellent information from the American soldiers that they waterboarded.

imagine,

Not only is your knowledge of the very history you cite appallingly deficient, as Mickey has noted, but its obvious the history’s lessons are equally beyond your comprehension.

If you had any serious knowledge of warfare and conflict you’d know that all out war has but one rule and one rule only… win at any cost.

You may find that fact inconvenient, but I will guarantee that you and your delusional fellow travelers are the only ones who do. Not one of this country’s enemies, or potential enemies is remotely concerned that their actions might violate some gratuitous convention or protocol.

The only ones who give a damn about limiting the actions of warring parties are stupid American leftists whose braying only serves to restrict the abilities of the American forces that defend them… and the rest of us.

I’m disappointed that so many buy into this “ends justify the means” mentality but it just goes to show that even conservatives are Leninists now.

Mike,

Your sarcasm is duly noted, but I would be remiss not to point out that this “the ends justify the means” mentality is exactly what got Obama into the White House in the first place, and is a perfect description of his so-called economic recovery and fiscal policies.

Indeed, it is arguable that lacking any sort of meaningful principles save the accumulation of political power, the very foundation of leftist ideology is the same expediency at which you snicker.

Nice cherry picking from the memo.

Or did you even read the memo?

Don’t bother responding, I know the answer.

But of course you don’t traffic in rumors.

Rob look at the Liberal Skippies come out to try and shoot holes in the memo. I suppose this guy will be thrown under the bus.

I’m disappointed that so many buy into this “ends justify the means” mentality but it just goes to show that even conservatives are Leninists now.

/sarcasm

Or more likely he cares what is right and believes that if America does what is right we will be safer. I like that strategy.

Pure bullshit! When someone is trying to destroy you, after declaring war on you, as AQ did during Clinton, not to fight back with what is required to win is simply insanity.
You lefties are insane. If you want to die, kill yourselves; just don’t try to take real Americans with you.

Nothing worse than trolling on a busy day and actually having to put some thought into a reply.

Bat One

Indeed, it is arguable that lacking any sort of meaningful principles save the accumulation of political power, the very foundation of leftist ideology is the same expediency at which you snicker.

Setting aside the case of egomanicalism, I can’t think of any efforts to accumulate political power that aren’t based on some principle or other. Leftist ideology generally comes from the principle that a society should be judged on the condition and treatment of its vulnerable members…and I do mean “generally.” Rightist ideology generally comes from the principle that a society should be judged on the freedom of every member to make his own choices and make the most of his abilities…and I do mean “generally.”

I’m dubious of the popular notion that leftists just want to tell everybody what to do because they want to…which shouldn’t surprise you.

Carrick

The ends don’t always justify the means, but they get factored in during any moral equation.

One would hope they do. What does or does not constitute torture is a technical issue resolved by consensus which is itself subject to change over time. If enough queasy tummies develop from knowledge of various techniques then those techniques may indeed constitute torture. Your point about imprisonment is thought provoking although I would need to see evidence that the loss of freedom alone is more scarring than torture.

r108

Actually, the “the end justifies the means” is inaccurate, since the end always justifies the means, otherwise nothing would ever get done.

I’m not certain that you really mean what you’ve written but in case you do, the natural question is why you haven’t offed Obama and rounded up all of the liberals yet?

Moreover, our interrogation methods are never “torture”, in that they are only to get vital intel, not just for inflicting damage on an enemy.

That is a most curious definition of torture…removing someone’s skin from his body while alive wouldn’t constitute torture if you’re after vital intel? All I can say is that I hope the guy knows something useful.

Interesting comments all.

Yep, there really isn’t a level that constems won’t stoop to.

Sick individuals.

water torture is a very different thing than water boarding.

Ah! But, they both contain the word “water”, so you can see where the average liberal would be easily confused!
Especially the sixties radical wing of the party with their apparent aversion to water (i.e. bathing)!

So, basically, Obama threw interrogation tactics that actually worked to elicit important, actionable intelligence about terrorists and their plots out the window.

Better than throwing your principles out the window every time you take a shit like the republicans do.