The problem with letting people keep more of their money is that they’ll spend it all on crap at the mall while the infrastructure, education and public safety crumbles. ESPECIALLY the conservatives who think everything should be free so they can spend all their money keeping up with the Joneses.

Deficit spending by the federal government is not the same as a household, but since you brought it up, that’s how most people, including you stupid stems, live.

Did you buy your house with cash? Car? Education? No, you borrowed against the future to live better today. That’s how life works.

And the government WAS taking in as much as it was spending before that fucking idiot King of the Stems bush cut taxes TWICE while galavanting around the world starting wars and turning the Treasury over to his corporate buddies.

As I said before, think again if you have any illusions that we’re going to dismantle the government now that you pieces of filth broke it.

Get ready for reduced services AND much higher taxes. You middle class asskissers of wealth are truly fucked. But that’s what you get for worshipping the wealthy and the corporate and protecting them from taxation by voting republican for 30 years.

The rich are laughing their asses off at you. They’ll be sure and step over your children and grandchildren as they beg in the streets.

The freefall has stopped.

The free fall has not stopped.

suite, thank you for the honest, adult answer. I will respect your convention.

he’s just been less the forthcoming and indeed less than truthful which suggests an insecurity

yes, “less than forthcoming” basically a liar, similar to clinton.

….but he said it, doesn’t that make it true…? /sarcasm/

I guess some think that quadrupling the national debt is a economic plan.

Think about that for a minute. Obama sent the debt from $11 trillion to $44 trillion in 4 months? Patently ridiculous but expected from a stem.

The administration just trashed two of the largest corporations in the world.

They were trashed before he took office. They would have disappeared under a McCain/Palin administration. Of course no one would notice because we’d all be living in tents with no TV or internet.

It’s sad when growth industries are springing up that are centered on how to get a slice of the money distributed by Washington.

It’s neither sad nor bad for society. You obviously don’t understand how civilized societies work. That’s the problem with you “free-market” myth-believers. You don’t recognize the severe limitations and wild deviations that accompany your own theories and how government has always provided a moderating influence.

Keep hoping for more bad news, cons. It’s all you have left.

[quote="Dino"]Most importantly, the attitude that we are in meltdown is only being cultivated among the people who want Obama and the dems to fail so they can regain control and complete the job of destroying the government, creating the free-for-all they think will end in Utopian living.
[quote="B. Hussein Obama"]We are out of money.

It’s stabilizing. You wish it would crash.
Of course, it’s still bush’s fault anyway.
DINO on June 3, 2009 at 06:31 am
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Stabilizing? Does that mean you got an increase in your welfare check?

Why is communism the only alternative Ken? Heaps of people have had good ideas over the years. That is a false dichotomy to assume that centrally-planned state-socialism (which is what you meant as “communism”?) is the only alternative.

Anyhow, I’m not worried about Muslims in general, just the dangerous destructive ideas some are spreading and deceiving the others with

The current speculation is that there are between 0.817 billion [The Universal Almanac (1996)] and 1.2 billion [CAIR] Muslims in the world. Terrorism analysts estimate that only 1-3% are extremists.

ONLY 1-3%?

That means there are somewhere between 8.1 million and 12 million extremist Muslims out there.

You should be worried. They have already been caught recruiting jihadists in our own criminal prisons (as opposed to Gitmo, which was already a jihadist vacation spot)

It’s stabilizing?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090603/bs_nm/us_usa_economy_employment_adp

The vast majority of Americans are comfortable with and confident about their American heritage and don’t believe our basic American traditions are threatened by Muslim Americans or Jewish Americans or whatever.

Even if your claim is true, that doesn’t change the reality, does it? BTW, Jewish Americans are no threat to anybody; if you think that, you have been drinking the terrorist KoolAid.

suite: From His Father in heaven. He taught that one can be tolerant of others even when in a position of non-power (on earth). God. Is there something that prevented you from typing that word?

I do agree that Muslims must cleans themselves from their murderous ways.

Take a look at these children and tell me why they will not murder others when they grow up.

This opposed to Muslim children who’s first word taught is jihad.

Suite:

Islam has been taken over by a virulent supremacism and supremacism are always blind and dangerous,

Since the surfacing of Teh Pedophile Profit, Islam has always been about violence. To non-believers. To believers who step out of line with Sharia law. And to women.

No, it means my hours are back to full time. My company is seeing more transactions. Jobs are coming in. The freefall has stopped.

Employment lags a recovery which won’t happen for some time. It will take years to recover from the destruction brought to us by 30 years of bad conservative fiscal policies.

Oh Ok! I am guess I am sold then since Dino has more hours all of a sudden the economy is booming. Bullshit.

Here’s the deal about the so-called “Deficit spending”.

You have bills-house payment, car maybe, etc. You are forced to take a pay cut. Do you burn down the house and live in the street? No, you borrow to hold on and work to restore your finances.

The country has bills to pay. The debt, your precious and untouchable defense budget and the running of the country.

The republican tax cuts and meltdown caused the pay cut. But we still have to pay to run the country so we must deficit spend to get back to normal.

Oh I know. You stems thought Obama would be forced to slash all social spending and slaughter whole agencies. In your sick minds you saw huge cuts to the EPA, education, health care, Medicare. You thought that bush and the republicans had finally achieved what reagan started: the unrecoverable weakening and dismantling of the federal government.

Oh how wrong you are and that’s what has you so feeaked out. Obama and the dems are going to find the money by taxation, borrowing or printing. Your fantasies of a dead federal govt are just that.

Pay up or your kids and grandkids will. You could ask the wealthy and corporate to kick in more but we know how that chaps your asses.

Your choice, stems. Because we’ll get the money somehow.

Never said it was booming. It seems we’re skipping along the bottom though, not sliding as fast.

Don’t forget that I personally despise American capitalism and wanted to see it fail. That we didn’t descend into a hellpit of widespread misery hurts my cause. But it’s better for people that we maintain some semblance of status quo.

Nixon exercised wage and price controls, there was nothing ‘conservative’ about his economic policies. — Ken

These were to control inflation. Inflation is the enemy of douche-bags who live off of return on investment, the redistribution of wealth from those that produce it to themselves.

Unionized workers aren’t really affected by inflation as they just shake more money outta their boss to keep up with inflation.

Bretton Woods imposed limits on currency exchanges and international capital flows, it was not Laissez Faire. I gave the example of Bretton Woods as Keynes himself had a role in setting this up. This was in response to:

It was a supply-side success if anything. Keynes had nothing to do with it. — Ken

From Wikipedia:

The Bretton Woods system was the first example of a fully negotiated monetary order intended to govern monetary relations among independent nation-states.

Doesn’t sound like laissez-faire to me.

And whether Pinochet was free-market or not, CIA installing dictators in foreign countries to get govts favorable to US business interests is not laissez-faire either.

What people are expecting is a sound economic policy which will help both usa [sic] and the world.

Kevin Riley,

Do you have even a clue about what you’ve written, or what “sound economic policy” consists of?

Apparently not!

Sit back, have a cup of tea and contemplate the utter irony of that statement.

Those who are being hypocritical about such a thing are the same ones who have explicitly told us that they hate America.

It all makes sense when viewed from that light.

…credit is opening up…

Wrong direction; loose credit standards for social engineering purposes was the root cause of the recession in the first place. What will save us is fiscal conservatism, not adding to Bungler Obama’s massive debt.

It’s neither sad nor bad for society. You obviously don’t understand how civilized societies work. That’s the problem with you “free-market” myth-believers. You don’t recognize the severe limitations and wild deviations that accompany your own theories and how government has always provided a moderating influence.

That’s quite a mouthful. Especially for someone who has yet to demonstrate that he knows what he’s talking about.

Still, I wonder, have you come up with any past instance when massive deficit spending has actually worked to stimulate economic growth and get a country out of recession? It would be just a bit easier to believe what you say if you could point to an example of when the policies you’ve endorsed have actually done what you say they will.

Stabilizing?? Is that what the govt. did to all those car dealerships. They got bent over and “stabilized” for sure. The administration just trashed two of the largest corporations in the world. They are never coming back. Nobody is going to buy GM or Chrysler again.

America is not in recovery.

No one said it was. It has stabilized.

Batty, you continue to deny the power of government spending to prop up the economy even as it has worked to stabilize us. Without the massive infusions from the Fed on the order of several trillion, we’d be much worse off. Government is not irrelevant.

It was good to be in a room of successful, smart people this morning who believe in the power of government to spur innovation and growth as well as being the funder of private enterprise in the absence of private capital.

Then I come here and argue with the luddite stems. Sheesh.

You think the bush years are irrelevant? Are you stupid or high?

Stupid or high? You are the one saying people claimed we had utopia under Bush, not me.

So which are you Dino, stupid or high?

Very little has been accomplished by this administration thus far.

Then that directly contradicts your claims that Obama has harmed the country and the economy.

Works both ways, stem. And, it points to the cause of the meltdown as being his predecessor, something we all know.

His father was a Muslim and that was the religion denoted when he went to that Muslim school in Indonesia. It was verboten to say the truth during the campaign because it was called fear-mongering. Now he seems to be coming out of the closet and embracing his Muslim heritage. what a fraud.

So deficits are ok now, but before Jan. of 09 they were bad? — J.L.

A competent govt spends when in recession and saves or invests when the economy is booming. This way demand is more even and the economy can have better long-term growth.

During the bubble Bush was still running up huge deficits though. This makes Obama’s job of stabilizing the economy much more difficult and expensive.

Why all this scare-mongering about the deficit? Why is a balanced budget suddenly now more important (under Obama) than getting the economy back on track?

Holy crap, you are nuts. This economy is crashing harder than an air France liner.

So far he’s not delivered.

The economy is stabilizing. It’s not easy to turn around the US Titanic damaged by the republican iceberg.

C’mon Mickey – Never let a good crisis go to waste…..when you can increase spending for everything you ever wanted.

That means there are somewhere between 8.1 million and 12 million extremist Muslims out there.

Correction: between 8.1 million and 36 million.

Don’t forget that I personally despise American capitalism and wanted to see it fail. That we didn’t descend into a hellpit of widespread misery hurts my cause. But it’s better for people that we maintain some semblance of status quo.

So you want your company to fail?

It’s stabilizing. You wish it would crash.

Of course, it’s still bush’s fault anyway.

my,my,my….all the republicans hoping for the worst.

I don’t think Dino is saying “Mission accomplished”, I think he is saying that things are starting to turn around.

It will take a long time to fix the last 8 years.

Would an efficient system have idle production capacity?

False dichotomy. Idle production capacity is not a sign of inefficiency. It depends on demand for specific product, not a fairytale concept like “aggregate demand”. When buggy whips are no longer demanded, there was idle production capacity, until the capital flowed into another product that people wanted. What is economically destructive is wasteful social spending(which kills economic growth) and govt rigging of markets to try to obtain predetermined social engineering outcomes.

The private sector is efficient, when inefficient, greedy govt stays out of business.

The freefall has stopped.

I’m glad it’s stopped for your company. But there are many companies it hasn’t. Far from stabilizing.

IMO what has killed our economy is an increasingly restrictive government siding with unions for votes and regulating industry. High costs due to unions and unreasonable standards have put America out of business. That’s not some theory, that’s fact.

Dumbocrats like Dino celebrate this. Their platform all along has been to hobble free enterprise until it collapses.

Then the rainbow age of unicorns and leprechauns with magical pots of gold can begin.

This [post-war] period in economic history was about the purest example of free market capitalism there is. — Ken

I can’t tell if you’re trying to be funny or not. Ever heard of the Bretton Woods system? How about the trade-protectionism of this era? Or the govt intervention within markets (and inserting dictators to gain, or preserve, access to markets). This was govt-nannied capitalism at its most effective.

Nixon started the conservative era. The following 27 years had only half the average income growth rate.

You really buy off on this theoretical crap, don’t you. — WillHunt

Yep. If theory matches practice, I believe, if not, I don’t. I even get to change my mind as new evidence comes to light. That’s why I’m a liberal.

Go on, tell me all about virgin births, gods hanging about in the clouds, the conversion of water into wine, walking on water, seas magically parting, and some dude making a boat in his backyard — big enough to hold two of each animal (and how there was no inbreeding problems).

You see, I like my beliefs to be consistent with evidence and logic.

Spoken like a true shit eater, dino. Which you are.

ESPECIALLY the conservatives who think everything should be free so they can spend all their money keeping up with the Joneses.

Hmm, this seems to describe your typical Obama voter much more accurately than your typical conservative.

Obama isn’t a Muslim. It’s not like some child’s conception of girls having cooties or some stupid thing. He goes to a Christian albeit quite whacked church.

Try telling a muslim that marries a Christian that his kids are not muslim. The koran says he must raise them to be muslim. Obama may have attended a “Christian” church, but he was born a muslim and raised as one for years.

Obama and the dems are going to find the money by taxation, borrowing or printing…

In other words, then, this deficit spending shit has NEVER worked in the past, in any country, just as conservatives like me and all rational economists have said all along. You can’t name a single successful example not because you’re too ignorant, but because there isn’t any to name. Your boy president is making it up as he goes along, because, like his idiot supporters, he hasn’t a clue.

And the government WAS taking in as much as it was spending before that fucking idiot King of the Stems bush cut taxes TWICE.

You are either a liar, or even more ignorant and misinformed than I thought. Check your facts, Swish. Government revenues were de-creasing before the Bush tax rate cuts, and started in-creasing after the tax rate cuts went into effect.

A competent government doesn`t spend more than it takes in. — J.L.

Why is that a sign of competence? If all households scale back their spending during a recession then there will be less aggregate demand and the economy will contract further.

The actual economic output will be far lower than potential economic output. This is happening now. That this can and is happening shows that capitalism and free-markets are not efficient.

Would an efficient system have idle production capacity?

But if the govt takes up the slack in demand economic output rises. Socialism saving capitalism yet again.

A slight “up-tick” then the huge tax increases followed by huge inflation. Enjoy the up-tick when happens, it won’t last long.

Did any of you look at Kevin Riley’s link? It’s a spam post. You’re replying to someone who’s doing SEO.

Yeesh.

ChiefRZ:

They are not a religion of love.

Neither were Christians or Jews at one point. Islam has been taken over by a virulent supremacism and supremacism are always blind and dangerous, even when largely correct and for good reasons. For instance, a certain supremacism is needed in any population facing a foreign invader which is anchored on that line from Red Dawn. “WE LIVE HERE!” However, blinded to one’s own imperfections and ever present need to live up to one’s promise and potential, one tends to leave oneself open to rote adherence which always leads to degeneracy.

Islam’s supremacism strain is anchored on the cognitive dissonance of an absolutely supreme G-d, and an absolutely chaotic man. Our world consists of much gray and need for the human heart to master the mind and vice versa. The Talmud in Judaism for instance does legal gymnastics to avoid meting out harsh punishments and to set down a path for forgiveness and return to the fold. Where do you think that Jewish carpenter got it?

Islam can be reformed and mellowed but it must come from the Muslims.

Remember what I said in the trees and environment thread. There’s a truth wrapped in lies. The truth is they do need to see they are in a position of power and as such can be tolerant of others which is mercy from a position of strength. They see themselves instead as in a weak position under intellectual and theological assault, a G-d they see as inflexible and intractable, and between a rock and G-d place. They aren’t but they think they are. Opportunists take advantage of it and away the sick charade goes.

It’s not simply asking them to unclench their fist. It’s to ignore their parasitic leaders and go to the people. Make them start seeing non-Muslims as their neighbors and friends. That is inevitable as long as peace can be maintained but peace requires strength and I fear the world is lacking enough strength to do much more.

Something’s gotta give…

The uncomfortable fact, for the west, is that homosexuality is more regularly faced with disapproval and opprobrium than intergenerational sex is and many are the human cultures who’ve not had as much problem with it as homosexuality and prostitution. To claim that we can put our modern 21st century western ideals on a man who was of a tribe on the Arabian plateau 1300+ years ago is just being silly. Within the context of that society, there wasn’t nearly as much wrong as within our society’s context and much of what we think right and wrong is less directly from our conscience than indirectly from our conscience through secondary constructive interference effects.

That is, our conscience affects our thoughts and thus our actions and in general the actions of enough people are dragged into a certain enough direction to make the implications clear. We may not like it, but human beings have less problems with age mismatches than gender mismatches. This is quite likely because human males have a high tendency to attraction to younger females and females to attraction to older males and the biological and sociocultural underpinnings of that can be looked up.

You didn’t notice that the “barely eighteen” genre in porn is gigantic? You think that the fans of that can magically tell the girl isn’t 17 and 6 months? Or 16 and 5 months? Hello? Traci Lords?

If not, you might not want to consider how big the gonzo slapping choking nearly forced buttfucking genre is and what that says about humans.

Of course since that’s male dominated you can see the male aggression and female willful passivity (willful as in they choose to submit for whatever reason) and really, why would you want to create a cesspool of that with aggressive males creating a feedback loop on themselves?

Human psychology and sexuality can be very not pretty, but people are what they are.

The point is that things are what you make them to be. The question is will they make them different? If we assume no from the outset how can we hope to ask for better in return? Why be on a collision course with the unnecessary?