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Monday, March 20, 2006

North Dakota’s Budget Surplus Over $270 Million

Wow...

BISMARCK - North Dakota's state government budget surplus is often reported at just over $100 million, a healthy sum by historical standards - but less than half of what the surplus really is. It's more than $270 million, and climbing. . . .

The number compares the Legislature's tax collection estimates in March 2005 with actual numbers. Lawmakers used the estimates to finish writing the state's two-year budget.

In the March 2005 estimates, the Legislature guessed the state's general fund would have $593.7 million in tax and fee collections by February 2006. The treasury actually collected $703 million, or $109.3 million more, an increase of 18 percent.

The extra money is commonly referred to as the treasury's budget surplus. However, it doesn't include two large reserve funds, a $99.5 million "budget stabilization fund" and a $71 million permanent oil tax trust fund, which legislators have often used to cover current state spending.

The stabilization fund, established in 1987, was intended to protect state programs from across-the-board budget cuts if state tax collections fell short of expectations.

It had nothing until last year, when extra tax collections quickly pushed its balance to its maximum of $99.5 million. State law caps the stabilization fund's balance at 5 percent of North Dakota's general budget fund, which almost is $2 billion for the 2005-07 budget period.

The oil fund was intended to stash extra oil taxes during industry booms, and carry them over for leaner times. Its $71 million limit will be reached this month, said Pam Sharp, the state budget director.


That's a big surplus for a little state. Of course, the big surplus is bringing the bureaucrats and big-government types out of the woodwork with ideas on how to spend it.

Lawmakers say the treasury's robust health will ratchet up budget demands during the 2007 Legislature, because local school administrators, college officials, nursing homes, state workers and other constituencies expect the state can afford to spend more.

"Obviously, there will be all kinds of people who would like to have increased funding for whatever program that they're interested in," said Sen. Bob Stenehjem, R-Bismarck, the Senate majority leader.


That is such nonsense. North Dakota is doing well. Our citizens are employed (our unemployment rate is rock-bottom low, any lower and we'd start having problems with inflation), our schools are performing well (and spending more on education doesn't mean performance will come up anyway) and the state's infrastructure is adequate. Plus, as the article points out, the state already has money set aside in two separate funds for lean times.

The only responsible thing to do with this budget surplus is to give it back to North Dakotans in the form of a rebate (the surplus is about $420 for every man, woman and child in the state but a rebate would be more as it would only go to taxpayers) and then cut taxes to be more in keeping with government need. This rebate/tax cut would ensure that North Dakota's economy continued to grow at the robust pace we've seen and would likely result in even more tax receipts for the government in subsequent years.

The only question is whether or not our state legislators have the cojones to stand up to demands from the state's bureaucrats and do the right thing.

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FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 07:50 pm
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Looks good to me, though I think you should have been more vocal in your calls for tax cuts and/or a tax rebate.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 08:00 pm
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Rob’s right,  a rebat is in order.  The legislalure spent a lot of time last session trying to tie up money into trust funds to keep from spending it,  but truth is no one thought the economy would kep goin as strong as it has.   ND should rebate at least $150-200 million of unexpected revenues and use the rest to fund needs in human services and K-12.  As our standard of liveing grows,  Feds cut back on Medicare support,  forcing more dollars for level service.

 The key is for the legislature to propose this over the summer,  before Hoven starts developing his budget.  If enough Legilators commit to it before the election it would force restraint on the Governors’s Budget

 Just my two cents

t

gilbyguy on March 20, 2006 at 08:01 pm
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Gilbyguy, I’m on board with your rebate plan.  Do I take it that you’ll be a legislator campaigning for that?

Also, what do you think about coupling the rebate with a tax cut (maybe at the gas pump?) to help keep this strong economic growth rolling? 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 08:04 pm
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I’d like to see the legislature keep the annual budget below the $1 billion mark for at least 1 more go around (currently at $945 million, give or take)

We need to make sure this surplus isn’t blown willy nilly on pet projects.

$270 million now sounds like is the LOW END number.  If thats the case, there is enough to not only prevent tax increases for quite some, but solve the education funding issues for the next decade or maybe more.

Beyond a moratorium on the gas tax, we could also freeze tuition for at least 4 years, and even give the 8,000 (or so) teachers a bonus.

While I completely agree that money does not equal better education, we should reward those who make the education system in this state a success DESPITE the lack of money.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 08:11 pm
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Let’s see.  You have about 120 million in growth that will take away party of the surplus,  and we still have to solve this k-12 funding issue somehow.  So basically the money is spent. 

What does that mean.  It’s time to make some friggen cuts.  I say start with HHS, 2 billion per biennieum.

Joe Miller on March 20, 2006 at 08:14 pm
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Sorry Rob, but I have to take issue with something you said here:

Our citizens are employed (our unemployment rate is rock-bottom low, any lower and we’d start having problems with inflation),

Please explain what you are elluding to here?  I’m fairly well versed in macro-economic theory, and I do not recall any corrolation between so-called "full employment" leading to inflation.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 08:20 pm
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Please explain what you are elluding to here?  I’m fairly well versed in macro-economic theory, and I do not recall any corrolation between so-called "full employment" leading to inflation.

If as the available labor pool shrinks competition for workers increases.  Wages go up and, if they stay that way long enough, prices go up.  Thus, inflation.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 08:23 pm
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If as the available labor pool shrinks competition for workers increases.  Wages go up and, if they stay that way long enough, prices go up.  Thus, inflation.

Ah, the good ole ‘Phillips Curve.’

Ironicly the Phillips Curve is the basis of Kaynsian Economics, which counters Supply Side Theory in that it advocates government interference in the economy - specificly the money supply.

This is the theory that FDR used to take us off the Gold Standard and impliment the Federal Reserve System.  In other words, a stepping stone to a Planned Economy.

What weakens this argument is that it does not take into effect an increase in productivity to match the increase in wages.

And Stagflation all but disproves this theory.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 08:37 pm
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Read Hayek’s Road to Serfdom.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 08:43 pm
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Free, get your head out of the books and observe reality.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 08:44 pm
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Free, get your head out of the books and observe reality.

No need for none of that book learnin huh?

You’ll never understand what is going on in reality until you understand the theories and philosophies that control reality.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 08:48 pm
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No need for none of that book learnin huh?

Yeah, I’m just some dumb rube because I didn’t go to college. 

You’ll never understand what is going on in reality until you understand the theories and philosophies that control reality.

Oh, I’ve got a pretty firm grasp on reality.  Enough to know that reality is what it is and certainly isn’t controlled by anything you can read in a book.

When the job market is tight inflation tends to go up.  This is a fact.  What part of that don’t you understand? 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 08:51 pm
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During the late 1960s and into the 1970s, common "Keynesian" theory held that there were two forms of inflation, so-called "Cost-Push" and "Wage-Pull" inflation.  In 1972, Richard Nixon, who was a pretty good liberal President, for a Republican, made his famous remark, "We’re all Keynesian now."  Nixon’s answer to inflation was to be wage and price controls.  Gerald Ford’s was the infamous "WIN" buttons.

It took Jimmy Carter’s double digit inflation to help bring about the Reagan Revolution, while at the same time Milton and Rose Friedman, both Chicago economists, published a truly remarkable little book titled, "Free To Choose," which soon thereafter became a PBS TV series.  The Friedmans are "monetarists, who explained that inflation is nothing more than too much money chasing to few goods and services.

Unlike their predecessors, both Chairman Greenspan and Chairman Volker before him, paid very close attention to changes in the variuuos money supply numbers.   Expect newly-appointed Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke to do the same.

Bat One on March 20, 2006 at 08:52 pm
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inflation is nothing more than too much money chasing to few goods and services.

This is why too-low unemployment creates inflation.  You increase wages without increasing the number of goods and services on the market. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 08:56 pm
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Enough to know that reality is what it is and certainly isn’t controlled by anything you can read in a book.

Do you think people should read the same books that the people in charge read?

"The powers that be" on both sides of the political spectrum have read this stuff.  And have been brain washed by it.

John Maynard Keynes was the economist from the UK that put in place the theories that control the world’s economy today.

The Federal Reserve, IMF, WTO, and other organizations lay their roots to Keynsian economic theory.

 

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 08:56 pm
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Free,

In no way would I argue with you about reading Hayek’s books.  But Free To Choose is in my humble opinion the premier primer on economics.  Unlike most economic writers, the Friedmans have a knack for making their subject matter clear, understandable, and simple, without becoming simplistic.

If Hayek is a "must read" for adults, the Friedmans’ book should be required of all high schoolers. 

Bat One on March 20, 2006 at 09:01 pm
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I should point out that despite my response to Free’s rather condescending statement I do not have a problem with "book learnin’."

I’d also point out that, generally, pushing unemployment rates down as far as they will go is a good thing.  North Dakota is something of a special case, though.  Given that this isn’t exactly an attractive place for people to move to we don’t exactly have the ability to generate influxes of workers.  Wages would have to remain quite high for quite some time before we attracted any significant new flow of workers.  This inflation would almost certainly take place before we could draw in enough workers to level out the market again. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 09:06 pm
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Like I said earlier, the economic model your basing your opinion on fails to factor in the psychological motivation that higher pay induces the workforce perform at a higher level.

Of course higher wages and stagnant productivity will lead to inflation.  Thats why the incentives for perpetual increases in productivity must be adequate.

Of course, the real question is "what is worse, inflation or dependency on governmental assistance?"

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 09:10 pm
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Free, I don’t see your increased productivity argument as all that convincing.

Even if a business has to pay a higher wage to attract workers they’re still only going to pay the lowest wage they can get away with while still attracting an employee at the skill level they need.  A tight job market just means that your average $6.00/hour burger flipper is now worth $9.00.  The productivity of that burger flipper doesn’t necessarily change. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 09:14 pm
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 A tight job market just means that your average $6.00/hour burger flipper is now worth $9.00.  The productivity of that burger flipper doesn’t necessarily change. 

A tight job market does not cause the burger flipper to get a $3 raise.  The tight job market gives the burger flipper the opprotunity to answer phones for $12/hr.

The burger flipper will always be at the bottom of the "legal US citizen" pay scale.  Yes, that will and should increase based on market and inflationary factors, but not based on government edict.

If the market says a burger flipper is worth $9/hr, then thats what the burger flipper is worth.  It’s not the government’s job to fudge the numbers to prevent inflation.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 09:20 pm
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A tight job market does not cause the burger flipper to get a $3 raise.  The tight job market gives the burger flipper the opprotunity to answer phones for $12/hr.

You’re not taking into account the idea that some jobs (like the answering phones jobs) will move away to cheaper job markets.  Higher wages means increased expense for business.  That will reduce the overall availability of jobs.

The burger flipper will always be at the bottom of the "legal US citizen" pay scale.  Yes, that will and should increase based on market and inflationary factors, but not based on government edict.

If the market says a burger flipper is worth $9/hr, then thats what the burger flipper is worth.  It’s not the government’s job to fudge the numbers to prevent inflation.

 Who is calling for the government to get involved?  I was simply pointing out that low unemployment can cause increased inflation.  This doesn’t always happen, especially not in markets that can attract a new influx of workers to level the market, but in a place like North Dakota it can and will happen if unemployment stays too low for too long.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 09:25 pm
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Who is calling for the government to get involved?

Well, since you are advocating what is essentially Keysian theory which calls for government manipulation of the economy, I ASSUMED you were.

I was simply pointing out that low unemployment can cause increased inflation.  This doesn’t always happen, especially not in markets that can attract a new influx of workers to level the market, but in a place like North Dakota it can and will happen if unemployment stays too low for too long.

So what’s worse, inflation or people relying on government welfare?

By your own theory, when there is more unemployment there is less inflation.  So what do we do with the people out of work?

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 09:30 pm
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Well, since you are advocating what is essentially Keysian theory which calls for government manipulation of the economy, I ASSUMED you were.

Well maybe you shouldn’t make assumptions.  Just because I point out a trend that actually exists doesn’t necessarily tie me down to any one economic outlook.

So what’s worse, inflation or people relying on government welfare?

It depends on the situation.  Your question has too many variables.

As I’ve pointed out in previous comments, low unemployment causing inflation is rare and only happens in an instance where there is no readily available influx of new workers.  Like North Dakota.  If it comes to it obviously sitting through a time of high inflation is better than getting a bunch of people used to government handouts.

Of course, this doesn’t disprove the fact that low unemployment causes inflation (a point you’ve now conceded with your change in subject)...which was the only point I was making from the get-go. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 20, 2006 at 09:38 pm
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Sorry if I’m being short with you, but I’ve been battling the flu for the last 3 days and I have to work at the station till 3am because despite having a college degree and running a congressional campaign, my only source of income right now is an $8/hr part-time job with no benifits at a radio station.

So excuse me if I come off as being disgruntled with your argument because I know from personal experience that the job market, and economy in ND as a whole is no where near as good as they would like us to think.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 09:38 pm
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I believe you are both barking, or doing something, to the same tree, but from different sides.  Free has a perfectly valid point about government welfare largesse with taxpayers’ money.  Indeed, it is not unreasonable to consider that there may well be instances where that "burger flipper" could very well get $9 per hour… especially if the labor market at the lower end of the scale is made all the tighter by an unwillingness of that sigment of the labor market to "demean" themselves and take that sort of job.  and if there is no compelling economic reason for them to do so, you would have much the same situation as you have in so many of the construction related trades now.  Several years ago, the largest raid/sweep in the Atlanta are history of illegal workers was at the construction site of the new federal office building in downtown Atlanta.

OTOH, inflation is a legitimate concern of the federal government.  Retaining the value of the dollar is especially significant as most of the world’s financial transactions are priced in US dollars.  And in a global economy, jobs can, and should move to more efficient, less expensive areas.  

As for North Dakota, I shouldn’t think that a "tight" labor market would have much of an adverse effect on the state.  And if AlGore and the global warming crowd are right, and North Dakota becomes hospitable and the east and west coasts wash away, well think about all those new state taxpayers you’ll wind up with.  The state’s budget surplus will be all the greater… as will the rebate checks. 

Bat One on March 20, 2006 at 09:56 pm
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OTOH, inflation is a legitimate concern of the federal government.  Retaining the value of the dollar is especially significant as most of the world’s financial transactions are priced in US dollars. 

The way that I interpret that statement is - "limited socialism."

Whether the government has 1% control, or 100% control, the market is no longer "free."

Either we are for free markets, or we are for elite intellectuals tdetermining the course of the economy.

Socialism/Communism’s goal is to dull the Boom/Bust cycle.  Which means that ANY government manipulation is a form of socialism/communism.

Now, I long ago abandoned my anarcho-capitalist ways, that said limited government extends to the marketplace.

If a person advocates ANY degree of government manipulation, that person is by definition no longer a "free marketer".

FreeRepublicans.com on March 20, 2006 at 10:05 pm
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I think it is important to know what inflation actually is.  Most regard it as rising prices, but that is only half the story.  In economic terms, inflation is a price increase without an increase in value.  In a tight labor market, labor is, by definition, more valuable, so the wage increases aren’t inflationary.  This is why wages and prices must be free to move up and down with economic trends.  Trying to dampen the natural fluctuations of the market is inflationary, as is taxation and regulation in general.  Every tax increases the price of something without adding to its value.  Economically speaking, the free market cannot inflate itself.  Of course, there is no perfectly free market.  The boom/bust cycle is created by the govt.  In boom times, the govt wants more in taxes, which eventually flattens out the market.  In bust times, they have to ease up, which allows the natural tendency of the free market to generate prosperity.  Less govt is always better, economically speaking. 

robert108 on March 20, 2006 at 10:42 pm
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Joe, 2 billion from Human Services: what would you cut from the Human Services budget?  Also, ND has an underemployment issue, and is number 1 in the workers with more than one job. Welfare will not go down until wages go up.  44% of those on welfare in ND are working. So if you cut medical assistance, then the health care community will be taking the hit as sick people will use the emergency rooms and be unable to pay.  I doubt there will be a rebate.  Between fixing the school financing system, higher education equity and tuition issues, state workers 20-30% below market, the system is not fully funded.  I absolutely agree that tuition costs should be frozen.  Our families have seen gigantic increase in tuition over the last 4 years. 

puzzlefeet on March 21, 2006 at 04:32 am
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Also, ND has an underemployment issue, and is number 1 in the workers with more than one job.

I hear this one bandied about all the time and I’m not convinced by it.  Yeah, lots of North Dakotans have two jobs.  But a lot of North Dakotans are also seasonal workers.  Agriculture?  Construction, road and otherwise?  These people typically take have two jobs, a primary seasonal job and something to pass the time in the off-season.  Also, with our job market as tight as it is not that much of a stretch in the imagination to see people taking a second, part-time job at higher wages just to make some extra cash for that new boat or motorcycle they want. 

44% of those on welfare in ND are working.

Source please.

Between fixing the school financing system, higher education equity and tuition issues, state workers 20-30% below market, the system is not fully funded.

Typical union baloney.  Comparing ND’s job market to the job markets in other states.  You don’t adjust wages for cost of living, which is lower in this state. 

I absolutely agree that tuition costs should be frozen.  Our families have seen gigantic increase in tuition over the last 4 years.

What we should do is stop subsidizing higher education, which is the core reason why tuition keeps going up.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 05:24 am
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Explain to me how you can decide that having more then one job is bad.  North Dakota’s like to get ahead.  Often people don’t need two jobs but they have two jobs because they  can.   

First I should clarify that I wouldn’t cut 2 billion from the budget but that the budget is 2 billion.  Aprox. half the total state budget. 

There are so many places I would make cuts its not even funny.   What’s wrong with the price of tuition?  If it were up to me I would raise the price of a 4 year degree and make our 2 year colleges virtually free.  I don’t know why you care anyway aren’t you from NJ?

Joe Miller on March 21, 2006 at 06:45 am
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Rob, here is the cite to the 44% number:  http://www.nd.gov/humanservices/services/financialhelp/foodstamps.html

Joe, I am not from New Jersey. I was born and raised in North Dakota having lived there for over 50 years.  Now do I get to have a say?

Rob, not every aspect of the cost of living is cheaper here.  Rents in our cosmopolitan are similar to those of Denver and Mpls.  Gas costs just as much, food, medical care, insurance, transportation, etc.

Joe, please tell me where in the human services budget you would cut and how you would handle the FMAP issue.  Nursing homes, Sex offender programs, state hospital, Grafton, .  Here is the overview of the Human Services budget, from the 2005 session, have at it:  http://www.nd.gov/humanservices/info/testimony/senate-approp/hb1012-carol-2005-03-01.html.

Having more than one job in a family affects the ability to raise a family if both parents are out of the household. Where is the family time?  We all talk about family values but if the parents are working most of the time, then where is the quality. 

Joe, tuition is getting too expensive for some to go to college, which is the way to a higher paying job or trade.

puzzlefeet on March 21, 2006 at 07:19 am
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Puzzle, this is what you said:

44% of those on welfare in ND are working.

This is what your link says:

In June 2003, 17,570 households in N.D. received food stamp benefits, and 44 percent of those households had earned income.

First of all, there are 257,152 households in North Dakota.  Of those households 17,570 receive food stamps.  That is approximately 6.5% of all households, a number that is likely inflated by the number of households on the Indian reservations receiving food stamps.  Of that 6.5%, 44% "earned income."  You’re talking about jus 3% of North Dakotans.  A miniscule amount.

And "earned income" isn’t exactly the same as working.  You can sell a model car on Ebay and "earn income."

Again, you misrepresent and distort in order to make your points.

Rob, not every aspect of the cost of living is cheaper here.  Rents in our cosmopolitan are similar to those of Denver and Mpls.  Gas costs just as much, food, medical care, insurance, transportation, etc.

Rent here in North Dakota is the same as Denver?  I don’t even have to look at numbers to know that you’re full of it.  A two-bedroom apartment here in Minot costs about $300 - 400/month.  In Denver the same is about $600 - $700 for comparable quality.  Minneapolis is about the same as Denver.

And, of course, there are the cost-of-living calculators that estimate that a person earning a $25,000/year salary here in North Dakota would have to earn $35,000/year in the Twin Cities to maintain the same level of lifestyle.

So, basically, you’re flat-out wrong again. 


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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 08:06 am
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Rob, check out Fargo and Bismarck and Grand Forks for rent.  Also the number 44% is of those receiving welfare in North Dakota not the total number of those working.  I think I was clear in writing that 44% of those on welfare in ND are working.

 

puzzlefeet on March 21, 2006 at 08:23 am
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If infrastructure is in good shape and the emergency (oil) fund is about full, yes, give it back to the taxpayers and consider making a portion of it a permanent tax cut.   I’m impressed by the good sense of North Dakotans to have the "oil fund" and level out their tax revenues that way, by the way.

Robert Perry on March 21, 2006 at 08:27 am
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Rob, check out Fargo and Bismarck and Grand Forks for rent.

Why?  Those are the most expensive places to live in the whole state.  Minot is more reflective of the average housing cost throughout the state.  Places like Williston and Williston are cheaper yet, while Fargo and Grand Forks are more expensive.  You can’t pick the most expensive places to live in the whole state, compare those to another state and then declare that cost of living is the same.  That is ludicrous.

And then there is this. Doing a search for a move from Fargo, ND to Minneapolis, MN with a $50,000/year salar shows a lost of disposable income of $6,301/year.  That means a person making $50,000 in Fargo, ND would have to make $56,301 in Minneapolis to maintain the same lifestyle.

You are flat-out wrong about cost of living. 

Also the number 44% is of those receiving welfare in North Dakota not the total number of those working.  I think I was clear in writing that 44% of those on welfare in ND are working.

You said 44% of those on welfare are working.  That’s not true.  44% of those on foodstamps had income.  There is a difference between "working" and "income."  As I pointed out before, you can sell a model car on Ebay and "earn income."  That doesn’t mean you are working.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 08:41 am
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Why check out Fargo and Grand Forks, because that’s where the majority of the ND population resides.

puzzlefeet on March 21, 2006 at 08:53 am
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You can find cheap and affordable housing in Fargo.  It just may not be 2000 sq. ft and brand new. 

When you can buy a decent house for 40,000 dollars and have job that will allow you too make payments on it and live a life, I don’t see where we have a problem.  If we need anything in this state is to start teaching euntrapenuership to high school students and simply offering encouragement. 

 

Joe Miller on March 21, 2006 at 09:04 am
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Rob, here is the definition of earned income for purposes of food stamps: 

"Gross earned income - Gross monthly earned income is a household’s total, non-excluded earned income, before deductions are made.  Gross monthly earned income is determined by adding the earned income of all members of the applicant household.  Enter the total amount in this box.

Examples of earned income include, but are not limited to wages and salaries from employment (including employment of individuals under age 18 not attending school), self-employment and military re-enlistment bonuses."

The definition of unearned income is: 

Unearned income - Gross monthly unearned income is a household’s total, non-excluded unearned income, before deductions are made.  Gross monthly unearned income is determined by totaling the unearned income of all members of the applicant household.  Enter the total amount in this box.

Examples of unearned income include, but are not limited to Temporary Assistance for Needy Family payments, Social Security Income, general assistance payments, disability benefits, unemployment compensation, worker’s compensation, and child support.  "

So Rob, I was accurate in my statement.

puzzlefeet on March 21, 2006 at 09:18 am
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The food stamp program was created as essentially a farm subsidy, to maintain compensation to farmers at a certain level.  It isn’t welfare in the same sense as family assistance, for instance, or out and out public assistance.

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 09:42 am
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robert 108 it may have been created that way but it is welfare and anyone who receives it is called "on welfare".  I would agree to call it a subsidy anytime.

puzzlefeet on March 21, 2006 at 09:49 am
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It is part of farm price supports, and so is welfare for farmers, in your meaning of the word.

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 09:57 am
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Actually, rising wages with low unemployment is not an artifact of Keynes, but of basic supply and demand, which even an Austrian like myself can endorse.  Low supply + high demand = higher market clearing price--this dates back to Adam Smith and before.  It’s not inflation (increase on money supply) in the classical sense at all.

And being an employee myself, I heartily endorse rising wages!  Duh!  Given that ND’s economy is small compared to neighbors, ND residents can rejoice in higher wages and buy cheap products from impoverished neighbors in  Minnesota and Canada.  It’s all good, eh.

Robert Perry on March 21, 2006 at 09:58 am
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Why check out Fargo and Grand Forks, because that’s where the majority of the ND population resides.

Baloney.  The two cities combined have a population of 154,000.   That’s 24% of ND’s population.  Hardly a majority.

So Rob, I was accurate in my statement.

Uh, no you weren’t.

but are not limited to wages and salaries from employment (including employment of individuals under age 18 not attending school), self-employment and military re-enlistment bonuses."

It is not limited to wages.  Meaning we could be talking about income from garage sales. 

And I notice you’re now ignoring the cost of living comparison I linked you to showing a $6,000+/year difference between Fargo and Minneapolis.  Guess you’ll just send that one down the memory hole along with anything else that challenges your preconceptions. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 10:11 am
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Explain to me how you can decide that having more then one job is bad.  North Dakota’s like to get ahead.  Often people don’t need two jobs but they have two jobs because they  can.  

Now Joe…

Nobody who has to work more than 1 job is getting ahead.  Unless the 2nd job is a start-up of their own, they are likely just trying to get by. 

 

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 11:46 am
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Nobody who has to work more than 1 job is getting ahead.

I could name 15 people I know personally who work seasonal jobs (road construction, etc.) and hold a second job in the winter just to pass the time.

I could probably name another five who are working a second job because they want to take a vacation/buy a new boat/put some extra money away for retirement.

You shouldn’t make such sweeping generalizations about this.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 11:53 am
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To back up Rob here,  most farmers tend to work a second job when not actively planting or harvesting, since there very often isn’t that much to do and the extra money is welcome.  I would guess that this phenomenon is quite widespread in North Dakota.

Moreover, "making ends meet" and "getting ahead" are two sides of the same coin, especially in the United States.  In general, those who are trying to "make ends meet" are trying to pay rent on a nice apartment and not miss their car payment, not get enough to buy a bowl of rice before setting down to sleep in their cardboard box underneath the overpass.  Let’s get the perspective of D’nesh D’souza, who came to the United States because he wanted (his words) to see a country where the poor people were fat.

Think about it, y’all.

Robert Perry on March 21, 2006 at 12:04 pm
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who are working a second job because they want to take a vacation/buy a new boat/put

Sorry.  I didn’t associate buying things with "getting ahead."

I don’t know anyone at a personal level that would trade their free time for things.  Guess there must be something wrong with me.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 12:06 pm
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Free: Actually, you are both free people making free choices, which is what our economy is all about.  You can trade free time for dollars or dollars for free time.  You get to choose.  That’s the beauty of it.  No need to be judgmental.  From the actions spring the consequences. 

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 12:11 pm
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You get to choose.

Its a choice once you’ve hit the break-even point.

Until then its mandatory, unless you go on a government program. 

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 12:16 pm
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It’s also a choice to live at the break-even point or below it.  Are you suggesting someone mandated that you choose free time over dollars?  I’m not clear on what you mean by that.  Govt programs are there to insulate people from the consequences of their choices, for the most part.

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 12:20 pm
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Sorry.  I didn’t associate buying things with "getting ahead."

So if I’m working in my career as an accountant but choose to pick up some extra shifts down at Wal-Mart so I can buy myself that new fishing boat I’ve always wanted I’m not "getting ahead?"

How about if I’m working a second job to pay for some classes at the local college so I can move up the corporate ladder?  Am I getting ahead then?

As Robert Perry noted:

To back up Rob here,  most farmers tend to work a second job when not actively planting or harvesting, since there very often isn’t that much to do and the extra money is welcome.  I would guess that this phenomenon is quite widespread in North Dakota.

It is widespread, but people like Puzzle and Free choose to see it as a bad thing.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 12:23 pm
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Govt programs are there to insulate people from the consequences of their choices, for the most part.

I’m as libertarian as they come as far as my opposition to gov’t programs, but even I don’t buy that hogwash.

People’s choices arent the only factors in determing their future.  Circumstance does play a role.

 

 To back up Rob here,  most farmers tend to work a second job when not actively planting or harvesting, since there very often isn’t that much to do and the extra money is welcome.  I would guess that this phenomenon is quite widespread in North Dakota.

Most farmers get a 2nd job cause farming is no longer a subsistance lifestyle.  Hence all the gov’t programs. 

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 12:42 pm
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I’m as libertarian as they come

I nearly injured myself laughing at that one. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 12:49 pm
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I nearly injured myself laughing at that one.

Good one.  Of course I voted for Harry Browne and Michael Badinarik.  And was a member of the RLC for a couple years there. 

But that must be funny too. 

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 12:53 pm
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I think there’s a disconnect on what inflation is.

If the labor supply becomes short the burger flipper needs to get paid more.  Assuming that he doesn’t do any more work and there’s no automation the price of the burgers will go up correspondingly.  In the long run what happens is that somebody clever

Since the public doesn’t have more money to spend they are going to make more choices.  They might choose to go to a sit down meal where they get better value.  Or they might cook at home.  If they still gotta have their burger they do without something else. 

 All of that is non-inflationary.  What inflation is is when the government creates more money.  You have more dollars chasing the same amount of products.   Ergo--Inflation.

The money supply can increase due to increases in population, working folks, increased productivity etc without being inflationary.

 

The.Whistler on March 21, 2006 at 01:00 pm
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Of course I voted for Harry Browne and Michael Badinarik.

If you’re a libertarian then I’m going to be the next governor of ND.

Your anti-Wal-Mart diatribes were enough to convince me that you’re no libertarian.  Your protectionism on the Dubai ports deal is another indication of this. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 01:03 pm
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Not everyone is for empowering China. The LP did split in 2004 over the War in Iraq as well if you will recall.

 

 

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 01:12 pm
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Of course I voted for Harry Browne and Michael Badinarik.

If you’re a libertarian then I’m going to be the next governor of ND.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 01:21 pm
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Will I be invited to the inaguration party?

The.Whistler on March 21, 2006 at 01:39 pm
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If there were going to be one you sure would be.

Really, though, I just don’t think a career in politics is for me.  I am incapable of kissing anybody’s butt. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on March 21, 2006 at 01:41 pm
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Free: Except for the disabled and injured, and those with birth defects and old age probs, govt programs are there to enable people who don’t want to make the effort to have a better lifestyle than they are willing to earn.  It’s not hogwash.  It’s the truth.  People who make the choice to not be upwardly mobile have to accept the consequences of that choice.  "Circumstances" is just an excuse;  it’s victimology.

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 02:40 pm
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"Circumstances" is just an excuse;  it’s victimology.

That is true for the most part.

The exception is the people that no matter how hard they try to make a better life for themselves, the world just wont let them.

There are those out there that refuse to be victims but end up that way because the reality is the world is cruel cold place.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 06:15 pm
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Free:  You wrote:  "The exception is the people that no matter how hard they try to make a better life for themselves, the world just wont let them.

There are those out there that refuse to be victims but end up that way because the reality is the world is cruel cold place."

That is the definition of victimology. 

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 06:40 pm
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The victims are those that are working hard paying their own bills when a pseudo liberalaterian (sic) forces them to pay their bills too.  I don’t put that down to being a hard cruel world.  I put it down to be lazy and greedy at the same time.

The.Whistler on March 21, 2006 at 06:40 pm
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That is the definition of victimology. 

Victims are the ones that whine an complain, not the ones that fight back.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 07:04 pm
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Its like Sean Conery said: "Losers always whine about doing their best, winners go home and bang the prom queen."

 

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 07:06 pm
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Free: The victims are the ones that blame someone or something else for their shortcomings.  "cold, cruel world" "the world just won’t let them"  for example.

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 07:29 pm
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Free: The victims are the ones that blame someone or something else for their shortcomings.  "cold, cruel world" "the world just won’t let them"  for example.

 The "cold, cruel world" example is mearly the reality of life.

A person is not a victim of the world unless they let the world oppress them and breat their spirits.

Its a mind over matter philosophy that is maybe too New Age for this crowd.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 07:42 pm
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It is actually the essence of conservatism; it’s also called "rugged individualism".

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 07:58 pm
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It is actually the essence of conservatism; it’s also called "rugged individualism".

I’ve been ridiculed for invoking the terminology of TR before so I never know exactly which way to put things around here.  Yes, it is rugged individuallism and pulling one up but the bootstraps.  Mind over Matter is a bit more positive phrase for the same thing.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 08:14 pm
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Free: I never ridiculed you for that.  I think the “reality” of a “cold, cruel world” depends on your view of the world.  It seems contradictory for you to talk of Mind over Matter and then characterize the cold, cruel world as being reality.  The essence of Mind over Matter is that you create the world you want.  It is the antithesis of victimology.  The corollary of Mind over Matter is that you are responsible for everything you experience.

robert108 on March 21, 2006 at 11:15 pm
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robert108:

Maybe it was those crazy philosophy courses in college.

It would seem that if the world wasn’t a cold cruel place, there would be nothing to try to get one’s Mind over.

Think dualities.

FreeRepublicans.com on March 21, 2006 at 11:52 pm
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Free: Maybe it’s that time spent doing Raja Yoga.

Think unity. 

robert108 on March 22, 2006 at 01:13 am
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