North Dakota Legislature Votes Down Smoking Ban In Bars, Hotels

I meant to post on this yesterday but never got around to it.

North Dakotans will still be able to smoke in bars. The North Dakota House has defeated a proposal to ban smoking in bars and hotels. . . .
Representatives voted 59-33 to reject the smoking ban in bars.

Most of the Representatives who voted against this bill did so on the basis of property rights for the hotel and bar owners. And good for them. But I did want to note some of the arguments from proponents of the ban:

Rep. Joyce Kingsbury: “I think ND is ready for smoke free policy in bars and I think we respect our workers and realize importance of healthy workplace.”
Rep. Lee Kaldor: “Going into a public place we have a right as citizens to breathe clean air.”
Rep. Metcalf: “None of these bars have came and offered me $120,000 to pay my medical bill for surgery from breathing second hand smoke.”

It’s a little sad to see these representatives have so little respect for personal responsibility.
If a worker doesn’t want to risk his/her health by working in a smoky bar or hotel, then why can’t they choose to work somewhere else? Nobody is forcing them to take a job in a bar or in a hotel. And for citizens having a “right” to “breathe clean air” in a public space, I’d note that hotels and bars are not public spaces. They are private establishments that are open to the public. That’s an important distinction. The public does not own these establishments, and thus the public has no right to dictate smoking policy in them. Property owners do, in fact, have a right to allow smoking if they want to. The public does not have a right to choose to enter a bar or hotel and then demand that everyone else there stop smoking.
If we were to consider a law requiring restaurants and bars and hotels to post their smoking policies on the outside so that people would know before entering whether or not they’d be in a smoking environment I’d be fine with that. But banning smoking to please the whims of a noisy minority is absurd.
As for bars being responsible for the medical care for people exposed to second hand smoke, why should anyone else be responsible for your choice to be around smokers?
The tobacco prohibitionists like to play victim. They like to pretend as though their health is being infringed upon by irresponsible tobacco users. But the truth is that smokers, and the owners of private establishments where smoking is allowed, just want to be left alone. It’s the prohibitionists who are doing the infringing and expecting everyone else to be responsible for their choices.

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  • http://Array docdave

    Banning smoking in establishments is simply tyranny as it takes a legitimate choice away from the citizens. Just one more step toward totalitarianism.

  • http://northerngleaner.blogspot.com/ Gene

    I know what Buzz means. It’s nice not to smell like HELL after being in certain establishments for a while. But, I get tired of folks drifting in and out.

    I guess I would say if I had it to correct I would want my fellow Illinoisans repeal the bars and restaurant smoking bans.

    They won’t but they didn’t ask me.

    Yes, Buzz, I do think it has affected business. But I can prove nothing.

  • Zakk

    If you walked into an establishment and saw that it was a smoking establishment and then asked for a application, wouldn’t you then be putting yourself in harms way. You knew going into that job that smoking was permitted, why not get another job?

  • http://www.willisms.com/ Zsa Zsa

    There are already many laws that have been passed infringing upon the rights and health of everyone. Govt CONTROLs almost half of healthcare today as it is. More Govt interference is NOT going to fix the problem. Govt interference only makes it worse. Common sense and personal responsibility is the answer. NOT more Laws! Our Rights and Freedoms are dying before our very eyes in the name of Political Correctness. We don’t need another LAW!

  • Zakk

    “Do smokers have any “social responsibility”, Rob?”

  • DMSinSD

    Just watching the developments in ND as the legislature contemplates a similar restriction in SD.

    I was just wondering, and except for exposion and fire hazards, if second hand smoke is so bad, why haven’t OSHA, MSHA, and the USDOT declared it a workplace hazard and banned it already?

  • Hannitized

    It’s my business. If you choose to work there, or you choose to patronize my business, aren’t you choosing to put yourself in a smoky environment?

    You are changing the argument by talking about rights in the workplace and going out for a drink. Two different topics.

  • Zakk

    Sorry, Robert108, but you sound like you have this victim complex when you use words like ‘forced’.

    there is never any mention of “non smokers rights”; it’s always “smokers rights”, and that’s simply unbalanced.

    – sure sounds like victim complex here.

    Did someone take you to a smoking bar at gunpoint and make you sit there. (side note, one night in a smoking bar will not cause cancer.)

    Where do you live that smokers are chasing you around forcing you to sit while they smoke? I understand that it is rude for a non smoker to walk up to a bus stop and light up. I get that, and I think that is wrong.

    I’m so tired of hearing about how selfish the ‘smokers’ are. It’s a bunch of BS. You had a run in with a smoker once and you found that smoker to be rude and inconsiderate. Now you group them all together? That’s as bad as those racist F#@ks that claim to be Republicans, then the Dems turn around and say all Republicans are racist.

    Get off your high horse.

    People who wear too much cologne or perfume are offensive to me. I’m forced to sit in a bar and smell their stink. How about we ban colognes and perfumes from public places?

    What about people who eat a lot of curry, there tends to be an odor that comes out of their pours. I find that to be offensive, can I work on legislation to get them moved to another section of a bar?

    What if I’m allergic to something, now we are talking about something that can cause some serious harm to me. Can I get legislation to ban PEANUTS from bars? There are plenty of people that are allergic to peanuts, they should be banned, because unlike smoking one peanut and someone can die. Smoking requires prolonged exposure to do any damage. Walking though a cloud of smoke may not be desirable, but it wont kill you. But, one peanut accidentally rubbed against the rim of a glass, and BLAMO’ someone’s going to the hospital.

    Again, you and I have been down this road, in what seems like an annual thing now. I know how you feel, I think everyone knows how you feel, you know how I feel.

    We will have to agree to disagree. Have a great weekend. I’m outta here~

    Zakk

  • robert108

    ZZ: Here’s what I wrote:

    ZZ: While I don’t favor the banning of smoking on private property, it is inaccurate to call this “big govt” in action, since it is done at the request of citizens, 80% of whom would like to have the freedom to not smoke.

    The problem here, IMO, is twofold: One, there is never any mention of “non smokers rights”; it’s always “smokers rights”, and that’s simply unbalanced. It’s the smokers who are whining like victims here, for getting the consequences of their rude and inconsiderate behavior, and now they’re getting pushback after generations of abusing their “right” to smoke. Again, this isn’t “big govt”; it’s pissed off citizens who are tired of having toxic smoke forced on them.
    I’ll also repeat that I favor highly visible signage, so that non smokers can take their business elsewhere.

    I also don’t concede territory to the inconsiderate and selfish smokers, in the case of having only one bar or restaurant in town. Smoking doesn’t entitle one to occupy a space, IMO. Smokers who do that are on a power trip, and when non smokers band together to oppose them, the victimy whining begins. I have no sympathy for such behavior.

  • bustoff

    I don’t smoke, but my adorable wife does. The only time I ever made an issue of it was after we moved into our present home. The house was newly built, and she put a lot of time and work into the interior decor.

    When I asked her not to smoke inside the house, in order to preserve all the work she had done, she agreed without argument. She and any of our guests who smoke have gone outside to do so, and we have yet to receive a single complaint. And we entertain a lot in our home.

    Although she still allows me to stumble around the house drunk in my underwear. That’s why I always answer the door when we order pizza delivery.

  • http://www.willisms.com/ Zsa Zsa

    Robert108, BUT aren’t Non Smokers depriving the Smokers and Business Owners of their Right to smoke and allow smoking? Especially when Business Owners have taken measures to prevent second hand smoke? It is a two edged sword. Where is the Freedom of choice for the Business Owner in that equation? I usually always agree with you on just about everything. AND even though I understand your objection to smoking I still don’t want the Govt telling me or Business Owners that they can not have the freedom to allow smoking. IF there is only one bar or restaurant in town no one is forcing anyone to go there. Go home. Go out of town. Just say No. IF the establishment fails it will be there own doing.

  • ollie-B

    At last! The ND rejects the politacally correct notion of banning smoking in bars and restaurants. Thank you all!

  • robert108

    (side note, one night in a smoking bar will not cause cancer.)

    The real diseases of smoking are emphysema and other respiratory problems.

    I say again, when a smoker lights up in the presence of non smokers, that smoker is depriving the non smokers of their freedom to be free of tobacco smoke. You keep trying to twist and spin, but that’s the reason the 80% who chooses not to smoke is pissed off at the inconsiderate 20% who violate their freedom on a regular basis. Until you face this fact, you will continue to chase your tail like a dumb dog. As long as smokers continue to violate the freedom of non smokers, things will get worse for them. Had smokers beewn respectful of the freedom of non smokers, none of this would be happening.
    Funny, when the State legislature comes down on your side, there is no more squealing about “big govt”; when the majority of the people request legislation to protect their freedom, suddenly the squealing about “big govt” starts up.
    Why the double standard?

  • http://www.willisms.com/ Zsa Zsa

    Robert 108, I completely understand where you are coming from. Smokers are the most inconsiderate people, perhaps on the face of the earth. BUT when Business Owners Rights are stomped on by the Govt just to pacify one group, even when Business Owners have already secured & met certain standards to try and block Secondary Smoke, WE have to take into Consideration Our Own Social Responsibilities. No one is FORCING anyone to patronize that bar etc. BUT Govt IS FORCING the Business Owners to take precautions and meet certain standards. What is bad is the fact that Business Owners and Smokers rights are being over looked. Business Owners should be the ones to choose OR Not choose. After all it is their own business. NOT the Govt’s. Although it appears Big Govt is making it their Business.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    This issue always draws the lines down on those who respect private property rights and those who don’t.

  • Zakk

    Bob, except non smokers.

  • Bob

    Here in Chicago, the ban has little effect on many of the small neighborhood bars in my area. They just ignore it. The only bars getting any complaints are the ones that comply from neighbors about the groups of people congregating on the streets. They are PUBLIC property that the ownner has no control over. No one is complaining about patrons peacefully smoking in a bar, disturbing no one.

  • robert108

    ZZ: While I don’t favor the banning of smoking on private property, it is inaccurate to call this “big govt” in action, since it is done at the request of citizens, 80% of whom would like to have the freedom to not smoke.
    I also have a problem with the concept of “smokers’ rights”, since a “right” doesn’t include the entitlement to deprive others of their right, which is the right to choose not to smoke. As you know, one smoker lighting up around many non smokers takes away their right to not smoke.
    I favor highly visible signage, so that people can choose, and not give their money to places which contain toxic waste from smokers. On the other hand, if there is only one bar or restaurant in town, what then?

  • http://www.willisms.com/ Zsa Zsa

    Robert108, I think I understand where you are coming from and respectfully disagree to a point. Try comparing it to a person walking down the street and inhaling car exhaust. Our society is a car driving, exhaust expelling, toxic producing country. Of course it is not ideal. BUT it is the way we are. The solution to car exhaust is everyone start walking OR create cars that produce less toxic exhaust. On the other hand, a Private Owned Establishment that allows smoking with an air circulation anti smoke ventilation system should be allowed to invite smokers if they so choose. IF Non Smokers still can not tolerate smokers even with the Business owners taking measures to protect and prevent smokers from harming others, perhaps they shouldn’t be there? Social responsibility works both ways.

  • Buzz

    Illinois has had a smoking ban for a year now and doesn’t affect the business at the bars or restaurants. Some have had a wind block put up to make smoking outside more tolerable, some don’t. At any given time you only see two or three people outside smoking. I smoke from time to time when I’m drinking and would rather go outside to smoke. It is much nicer not having to wash your clothes every time you go into a bar for 15 minutes.

    Smoking is a habit not a right. It affects the health of other people, especially the people who work in the bars and restaurants. You say get another waitress job or busboy job, but if all establishments have smokers there is nowhere else to go get that job.

    It did sound like big brother when it first was enacted and people bitched just like you are. But after a year almost everyone, even the smokers think it is a good idea.

  • Hannitized

    If a worker doesn’t want to risk his/her health by working in a smoky bar or hotel, then why can’t they choose to work somewhere else?

    That is a great logical argument Rob. Nothing like setting a bad precedent.

    I mean, hey, why not just start passing all sorts of laws that infringe on my personal health and then tell me if I don’t like it I can leave.

    Why not tell every employer they can store radioactive material on their job site and get a tax credit for it? Then, if you liked the job you had, you can leave if that health risk causes you a problem. Right?

    How about if every person was able to blast their stereos in their cubiles? If it bothers you…….leave? Turn yours up if mine is too loud? How about that?

    Great idea!

    Let’s set the precedent that people can do things that cause others health risks and we can just shut the fuck up and leave if we don’t like it.

    You make America a better place every time you think Rob. Thanks.

  • Zakk

    If I were a bar owner, and I thought that having smoking in my bar was effecting my business in a negative way I would make my bar non-smoking. I would think that I know better than some elected official what works and doesn’t work in my bar.

    Here in Maryland we had a law a few years ago that every bar had to build a non smoking area and the smoking areas had to have ‘smoke eaters’ installed. This was all at the cost of the bar owner. The bars made the necessary changes and everyone was happy. Or so we all thought.

    Maryland then decided to make all bars non smoking, even after forcing bars to spend thousands on renovations. Keep in mind that there were plenty of bars out there that were already non smoking bars, they went non smoking voluntarily. Now bars are about half as full and bar owners are not only still paying for those renovations but they now have less income.

    Thank you Maryland government officials who never go to bars anyway.

    Good work North Dakota House.

  • SigFan

    I can appreciate non-smokers not wanting to be subjected to OPS, but this is a case of property owners rights. I could make the argument that if it was the ONLY bar or restaurant in town, maybe a smoking ban is okay, but in almost any town these days (or within reasonable distance) there are many choices of places to eat, drink and work. We do not need the gov’t telling individual business owners how they can run their establishments. If they feel their business is more viable by catering to smokers that’s their business and choice – same goes the other way.

    I myself smoke, but choose to do it only outdoors, even when in a bar or restaurant that allows it (unless the weather really sucks, in which case I don’t smoke). I never smoke in my own home, or in anyone else’s home because even I don’t like the lingering smell. If we all exercised a little more common courtesy and sense, maybe issues like this wouldn’t even be a topic for discussion.

  • Zakk

    Funny, when the State legislature comes down on your side, there is no more squealing about “big govt”; when the majority of the people request legislation to protect their freedom, suddenly the squealing about “big govt” starts up.
    Why the double standard?

    I’m going to assume your really not this stupid. Just a nonsmoking whinny jerk who is playing the victim card…again.

    Would you please explain what you consider big government. Is big government when the government lets businesses run themselves? Is big government allowing the individual to decide what businesses they go to?

    Also, I believe I put in large bold letters that if a smoker lights up next to a non smoker that smoker is a dick. What else can be said?

    08 – seriously, I know your not that stupid. I expect that kind of dumb shit from DINO not you.

    Tell you what, I’ll give you a do over.
    Now, go…

  • Zakk

    Rob, you and I have been around this issue too many times to count. All I can say is, if you know a bar is a smoking bar and you do not want to catch lung cancer from your 2 hours in that bar, do not go in to that bar.

    Give your money to an establishment that supports your way of thinking.

    It is really very simple.

  • Zakk

    On a more comical note, something that I have noticed now that the bar I work in was FORCED to go non smoking, other then the lack of people in the bar, is how much people smell.

    Before when someone farted, it was covered up by the layers and layers of cigarette smoke. Now when someone breaks wind, it’s there for all of us to smell.

    Body odor is another thing that I have noticed. Look people, your going out to drink and maybe hit on a member of the opposite sex, great, but take a F’n shower! If you worked all day and you know you smell, take 5 minutes and get in the shower. The days of the clouds of nicotine covering up your lack of hygiene are gone. It’s time to stand up and get clean.

    So there you have it. Farts smell worse without cigarette smoke as do some people.

  • headward0

    I say if we’re going to ban smoking because of health risks, we better require to wear helmets everywhere we go. I’d hate for somebody to slip and fall and bump their head. Let’s also remove all carpet. Carpet holds a lot of dirt and dust. Some people have really bad allergies and they have a right to breathe clean carpet free air.

    While we’re at it, let’s make all food services serve koser food for jews. I would hate to think how racist we are because these places are serving unclean food.

    We should also make people wear silver one-piece jump suits. And shave all the hair on their heads. That way I know I won’t have a chance of getting flees or lice from other people.

    See it’s not that hard to take this to the extreme. That’s how all the people sound that are trying to push this issue.

  • http://www.medicadepot.com/ medicade3

    I feel that the property owners should have the choice to make their establishment smoking or non-smoking.

  • Zakk

    Whoops! Ignore last post

  • dragon poker

    Rep. Metcalf: “None of these bars have came and offered me $120,000 to pay my medical bill for surgery from breathing second hand smoke.” Very good point.

    Stupid point actually. No one forces anyone to frequent a place they choose not to frequent. All that is required is full disclosure at the front door as to the smoking policy of an individule business/establishment. Let people be responsible for the decisions they make.
    If you can read you can choose not to go inside a smoking allowed establishment. You can choose to not work there. The market would settle this easily if allowed to. Let business owners decide if they want smokers to spend money with them. Let non smokers decide not to spend money with them.
    Instead of nanny state bullshit, the free market decides and everyone is happy.
    The exception of course would be those who wish to simply control the actions and behaviors of everyone else. These people I can do without, especially those who pretend to be conservative and principled until principle rubs against thier personal comfort zone or thier intense need to control others behavior. This pathology used to be primarily a liberal trait. Not any more. Pathetic.

  • robert108

    Rep. Lee Kaldor: “Going into a public place we have a right as citizens to breathe clean air.” True.

    Rep. Metcalf: “None of these bars have came and offered me $120,000 to pay my medical bill for surgery from breathing second hand smoke.” Very good point.

    Do smokers have any “social responsibility”, Rob?

  • Zakk

    Smoking is a habit not a right. It affects the health of other people, especially the people who work in the bars and restaurants. You say get another waitress job or busboy job, but if all establishments have smokers there is nowhere else to go get that job.

    Never said it was a right. Not even trying to get into that discussion.
    A- it will just go in circles.
    B- don’t care, it is off topic.

    There are plenty of non smoking establishments, that have become non smoking voluntarily. You can get a job at any of these places. Don’t give me that “There’s no where else to work” BS. That is crap and you know it.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    I mean, hey, why not just start passing all sorts of laws that infringe on my personal health and then tell me if I don’t like it I can leave.

    It’s my business. If you choose to work there, or you choose to patronize my business, aren’t you choosing to put yourself in a smoky environment?

    How about you take some responsibility for yourself?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Illinois has had a smoking ban for a year now and doesn’t affect the business at the bars or restaurants.

    Says you.

  • jack

    so i guess the hotel or bar doesnt have to wash glasses properly or clean the restrooms. according to your thinking if you want sanitary conditions you will just find a place that chooses to provide them.

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