Say Anything Blog

The educrats are paranoid that students would spend money on alcohol and not be able to pay for the double digit increases in tuition.

No Free Lunch

The idea behind the 21 year old drinking age is that people are not sufficiently mature to handle alcohol until they are 21. 

I am not making any judgment about whether this is true or not, I suspect it may not be.

But I will tell you one thing, your average 18 year old in the military is no more able to drink responsibly than the average 18 year old college student.  There is binge drinking in the barracks all the time.  Either the age should be lowered for all or it should be kept where it is and the argument about being able to drink because you can go to war is a red herring.

Assuming I agree with you about the binge drinking in barracks, what do you think the solution is?  Coddling these kids with laws against drinking?  Or maybe giving them more responsibility at a younger age so that they quit acting like children?

In my experience, if you treat teenagers and young adults like babies they tend to act like babies.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Assuming I agree with you about the binge drinking in barracks, what do you think the solution is?

Not sure I have one.  I suspect it might be worth while to lower the drinking age for at least beer.  Maybe if young people learned how to drink responsibly under the supervision of adults they wouldn’t go so crazy the first time they move away from home.

Maybe if young people learned how to drink responsibly under the supervision of adults they wouldn’t go so crazy the first time they move away from home.

That’s my position, but I’d go further than just beer.  I’d abolish the drinking age, and not just for beer.

Some Americans, including young Americans, are always going to have a problem with booze.  But trying to protect them from themselves is only going to exacerbate the problem by catching in the net people who can handle alcohol responsibly.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

I agree wholeheartedly. Forty years ago when I was in the military the drinking age was 18. In fact, you could do just about anything at 18 because you were considered an adult. Since then, egged on by those who thought that young lives should not be wasted (i.e. killed in alcohol related deaths), a campaign to protect our kids against the evils of drink was launched. In North Dakota, officials saw it as a way of keeping alcohol out of the hands of high schoolers. And off she went! Bar owners were being prosecuted if Johnny drank too much; sororities and fraternities were being shut down (Colleges should be protecting our kids, for the money they are being paid.) Parents refused to send their kids to schools where the drinking age was under 21. 
Driven by a society where no one is responsible for his actions, parents abdicated their roles as teachers and disciplinarians. Young men and women over 18 are still being called kids.
I feel that we should lower the drinking age to 18. Let’s start raising responsible adults. Teach them to drink responsibly from an early age. Getting drunk may be fun. But, it’s not something you want to build your reputation on.

But I will tell you one thing, your average 18 year old in the military is no more able to drink responsibly than the average 18 year old college student.  There is binge drinking in the barracks all the time.  Either the age should be lowered for all or it should be kept where it is and the argument about being able to drink because you can go to war is a red herring.

I wouldn’t say the war chant is a red herring. If someone can die for their country, they can surely drink. We let 16 year olds drive, and 18 year olds vote. An irresponsible 16 year old driver is far more dangerous than a young drinker (not behind the wheel of a car). Yet we don’t point out the inexperience of kids to keep them from driving…or voting.

The basic problem with that is…you never have any experience with anything until you try it. With most people, a session or two with violent vomiting, then a massive hang over the next day is enough to teach them to drink in moderation. Those who don’t learn…aren’t going to. Their age is not the factor.

There shouldn’t be a drinking age imo. Let parents decide, with the bare minimum of assistance of the state when their child can drink. Once the child is old enough to do the basic other things: get an appartment, get married, go to war, etc…then the choice should become theirs.

It’s all political bullshit. Liberals (and Robert108) lie and spin and twist and obscure and distract and cheat to protect their guys and hurt the opposing team. It’s like wrestling. They distract the ref while their team mate hits you with a chair. There’s no rule they won’t break, no law they won’t skirt, no crime they won’t forgive as long as they can win.

Rob,

I don’t know what kind of evidence they have that argues for lowering the drinking age, but I know that there is substantial evidence showing a marked decrease in drunk driving deaths since the drinking age was raised.

I think that this is one of those issues that otherwise very intelligent small-government thinkers can’t wrap their minds around because they lack the capacity for subtle analysis.

DUI deaths are a Federal issue. There is no “exit option” because people often MUST drive through several states to get somewhere. I am glad that the federal government made the roads slightly safer for me and my family and, frankly, I don’t care if it makes college kids more prone to drinking themselves to death in their dorm rooms.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Harry’s got a point, but I don’t think we assume that a person is going to misbehave just because they belong to a group.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Whistler,

We don’t assume, we predict based on statistics. See above.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

21 as the age of majority dates back to medieval Europe, and concerned such legal issues as inheritance, legal responsibility, and, in the case of the monarchy, the age at which the king was no longer under the influence of a regent.  The legal drinking age in the EU countries today is 19.

Maybe if young people learned how to drink responsibly under the supervision of adults they wouldn’t go so crazy the first time they move away from home.

That’s just good parenting; it has nothing to do with laws at all.  Too bad leftie social policies are so detrimental to good parenting…
As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
Teenage drinking can’t be fixed by legislation, and especially not by legislation that approves it.  Why not let the voters decide?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

We don’t assume, we predict based on statistics.

Very funny!  If you could really “predict based on statistics”, then things would always continue in the same direction, but human beings don’t really act like that.
Better to study people than statistics about people, if you really want to make accurate predictions.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Rob, how many years did you serve in the military?

We don’t assume, we predict based on statistics. See above.

So if a certain demographic group was more likely (a prediction based on statistics) to commit crimes then we should lock them up or otherwise treat them differently.  (such as no right to keep and bear arms?).

I don’t agree with that either. 

One thing the laws have really effed up is that it is illegal as far as I know to serve a glass of wine to a teenager at a family gathering.  I guess it’s better to learn to drink in the gutter I guess.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

I guess it’s better to learn to drink in the gutter I guess.

That’s also illegal, and can actually be enforced.  How many arrests and convictions are there for serving a glass of wine to a teenager at a family gathering?  Straw man.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

How many arrests and convictions are there for serving a glass of wine to a teenager at a family gathering?

How many people have gotten in trouble in a divorce custody proceeding or something like that for serving a glass of wine at a family gathering?

It’s not always a trivial thing breaking a trivial law.

Straw man?  Actually it was a secondary issue regarding the drinking age laws in this country.  You could have a 21 year old drinking age with an exception for small amounts at family gatherings.

The prohibitionists are extremists in every way.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

I am of the belief that 18 years old Is old enough to drink beer or wine.  As long as 18 year olds are aware of drinking & driving laws and that drinking and driving don’t mix. Many of you know my sister was injured by a drunk driver and suffered brain damage. The drunk driver she encountered was well over the age of 18 and had previous DUI’s. She also was back on the road again quite soon!  Sometimes I wonder if DUI offenders would be required to see individuals who have been harmed by drunk drivers if they would change their behavior towards drinking?

Rob, how many years did you serve in the military?

Zero.  Though I hardly think one needs a history of military service to think that 18-year-olds who are old enough to fight are old enough to have a beer.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

How many people have gotten in trouble in a divorce custody proceeding or something like that for serving a glass of wine at a family gathering?

So, how many?  The fact that our divorce laws are so punitive has no bearing on the need for a minimum age for drinking.  It’s truly a straw man here.
BTW, laws to regulate underage drinking aren’t “prohibition”.  That’s way over the top.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Sometimes I wonder if DUI offenders would be required to see individuals who have been harmed by drunk drivers if they would change their behavior towards drinking?

I think they should move DUI into a violent crime class. That would make a 3 time DUI person face a 3-strike Law & permanently remove that person from society.
THere is absolutely no reason to drive when affected.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

Zero.  Though I hardly think one needs a history of military service to think that 18-year-olds who are old enough to fight are old enough to have a beer.

If it were only “a beer”.  In todays Marine Corps, the regulations regarding alcohol are even more restricting than civilial laws.  Atleast in my Bn.  Rank has something to do with it.  If you are not 21, you cannot drink at all.  If you are 21 but are not an NCO, only a 6 pack is allowed in your barracks.  If you are a NCO you can have more than a sixer.  And no hard liquor is allowed in the barracks at all.  If you are off post I guess you can do what the hell you want if you are 21. But keep in mind that the tolerance for an alcohol related incidence is zero.  DUI’s are a career killer.  Why is it like this?  Because we are a professional military.  If we had 18 year old privates running around in bars we would have some issues.  I would be a shitty leader if I would let my 18 year old Marines drink and ruin their career.  Even the most responsible drinker slip up somewhere.  Why risk it? 
Maybe if you been there and done that you would understand. 

Experience with something CAN affect the way you think about a certain issue.  Just like our presidental canidates, right Rob?

Whistler,

Sorry, but I don’t respond to arguments in the form of questions (it’s disingenuous). I will note that they do set up a straw man, and I urge you to rewrite them as statements and I think you’ll see how reducilous they sound.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Reb Tex,  That is not a bad idea!  I really believe the problem is the drinking and driving laws. Not the drinking age. I hope the DUI laws have become more harsh than they were in the early 80’s, when my sister had her entire life changed forever? What was reeeeeeally a kick in the teeth was when the woman who was responsible for my sisters condition was allowed to drive again!

Can’t answer that can you?

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

What was reeeeeeally a kick in the teeth was when the woman who was responsible for my sisters condition was allowed to drive again!

Pull their license for life then and charge them with a felony for driving without a license.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Whistle, I think she wasn’t supposed to be able to drive at first. AND then she got around it by a judge allowing her to drive to work? As far as I was concerned she should have been forced to walk. AND IF she got tired of walking? She could run!

she got around it by a judge allowing her to drive to work

Total BS.  She also could ride the bus, a bicycle or pay someone to commute with her.  (Probably saving both of them money.)

{Branching off warning}

Another thing I don’t like about the neo-prohibition is that they are going after the social drinkers with the .08 level without backing off the punishments.  Penalties should be staggared more by how drunk/dangerous you are.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Another thing I don’t like about the neo-prohibition…

It’s not any sort of prohibition.  It’s sensible regulation.  Big difference, but don’t let that stop your hyperbole.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

It’s not any sort of prohibition.

A prohibition to keep people of a certain age from imbibing like the other adults.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

I would also say the neo-prohibitionists are doing what they can do incrementally.  They can’t bring back prohibition like it was in the 20’s.

On the other hand the new prohibition is quite like the old one in that it’s not keeping anyone from drinking.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

A prohibition to keep people of a certain age from imbibing like the other adults.

That’s a regulation; prohibition would not allow imbibing, selling or producing by anyone.  I know you know this.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

They can’t bring back prohibition like it was in the 20’s.

Another straw man.  No one is trying to do any such thing.  It is the duty of responsible adults to let teenagers know the difference between right and wrong.  No matter what you say, teenage drinking is not right.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

No matter what you say, teenage drinking is not right.

I think that once you’re 18 and graduated from high school it is ok.  So I must say that I disagree, although respectfully so.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

I think that once you’re 18 and graduated from high school it is ok. So I must say that I disagree, although respectfully so.

I think the behavior of those drinkers shows it’s not right, but I’m willing to have it put to a vote.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

No matter what you say, teenage drinking is not right.

According to you.
But it seems strange that a person can Marry at 16 & vote at 18.
A person can dispense drugs in a pharmacy at 18 or enlist to protect this Land at 17/18.
A person can legally pilot an aircraft at 16 or legally enter into a binding contract at 18.
At 18, a person can work in hazardous occupation or have risque pictures published.
But you think it’s wrong to allow them a drink of alcohol?

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

We assume 18 year olds are competent to make medical decisions for their kids…

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

We assume 18 year olds are competent to make medical decisions for their kids…

Non sequitur; who else would make those decisions?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

But you think it’s wrong to allow them a drink of alcohol?

All the other things on your list are beneficial and positive; drinking isn’t.  You really didn’t know that?
What are the positive outcomes of teenage drinking?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Non sequitur; who else would make those decisions

Perhaps the government should control that too?
After all, the teens don’t have the experience to make those decisions on their own….right?

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

who else would make those decisions?

I guess the state is taking the decision of whether or not to have a beer out of the hands of adults under the age of 21. 

As another aside, does anyone else get pissed off when the news media gives credence to a “binge drinking” study put out by the neo-prohibitionists?

They’ve defined it as drinking 4-5 drinks in a single sitting.  Binge drinking used to be being intoxicated for several days in a row. 

Now you can be categorized a binge drinker without even becoming intoxicated.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Kids can attend public school at around the age of six; does that mean they should be able to start drinking at that age?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Parents who want to leave money to their kids often put it in a trust fund, to be released at some age, generally around 25 or 30; is this a prohibition on having money?  Should we force those parents to give the money at 18?  Why any age limit for trust funds at all?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

All the other things on your list are beneficial and positive; drinking isn’t.

I think we were talking about the ability of 18 year olds to make their own decisions.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Kids can attend public school at around the age of six; does that mean they should be able to start drinking at that age?

Now you’re just being ignorant.
Please show your path to such a conclusion.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

Should we force those parents to give the money at 18?

I think the comparison would be to force people to set up all trusts to only pay out when the recipients are 25.  We’re talking about state action here, not private parties doing what they want with their own money.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Perhaps the government should control that too? Maybe you think so, but I don’t.  It is not accurate to say that “the govt” is enforcing the drinking age; that is a straw man.  It is really the citizens who have voted for representatives who follow their wishes, and this is something you don’t seem to realize.
After all, the teens don’t have the experience to make those decisions on their own….right? Actually, the decision is to allow the experts(doctors) to do what is necessary.  It isn’t a medical decision; it’s a decision to allow a minor child to be treated.  It doesn’t require expertise.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I guess the state is taking the decision of whether or not to have a beer out of the hands of adults under the age of 21.

Nope.  It’s the will of the people through the elective process.  If the voters wanted those laws changed, they would be.  Some politician would use it as an issue to win on.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Actually, the decision is to allow the experts(doctors) to do what is necessary.

So parents should have no rights about making health care decisions about their children?  We should have faceless bureaucrats do it?

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Actually, the decision is to allow the experts(doctors) to do what is necessary.  It isn’t a medical decision; it’s a decision to allow a minor child to be treated.  It doesn’t require expertise.
. .
.Really?
THe decision of allowing a minor child to be treated is, in effect, a medical decision.
. ..
But, typical to your general lack of honest debating skills, you want to start with a word twisting & nit-picking statement.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

Nope.  It’s the will of the people through the elective process.  If the voters wanted those laws changed, they would be.  Some politician would use it as an issue to win on.

Ah, the tyranny of the majority.  I read about that.

It’s my belief that the government doesn’t need to get involved in everything, even if a majority of busy-bodies think they should.

Of course I’m making a political argument that the 21 year old drinking age is wrong.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

THe decision of allowing a minor child to be treated is, in effect, a medical decision.

No, it isn’t; the doctors make the medical decision, and ask the parents’(of any age) permission to treat their child.  It’s about agency, not medicine.  Talk about twisting!

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

So parents should have no rights about making health care decisions about their children? We should have faceless bureaucrats do it?

Not what I said at all.  The parents give permission because they have responsibility for their child.  This has nothing to do with teenage drinking, btw.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

We’re talking about state action here, not private parties doing what they want with their own money.

Nope.  We’re talking about behavior that has no negative consequences here(inheriting money), and therefore has no need for laws governing it.
In contrast, teenage drinking has only negative consequences, and is therefore a subject that the voters want to see regulated by law.  Apples and oranges.
My point is that a judgment based on age alone, without considering the consequences, is just silly.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

ask the parents’(of any age) permission to treat their child.

True they make those decisions.  That shows a given level of maturity is assumed.  It’s no assumed with a one size fits all 21 year old drinking age. 

This has nothing to do with teenage drinking, btw.

It shows that they can make responsible decisions.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Now you’re just being ignorant. No, I was illustrating the silliness of making a judgment based only on age, by giving a silly example.
Please show your path to such a conclusion.  It was a question, not a “conclusion”.

I think ignoring the consequences of teenage drinking here is irresponsible.  Again, please name the positive benefits of teenage drinking.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

In contrast, teenage drinking has only negative consequences

I disagree.  The drinking age in Minnesota was 19 when I was 19.  So “ahem” I drank legally *ahem* when I was a teenager.  I didn’t find negative consequences outweighing the positive aspects. 

I know what you’re thinking.  Forget it.  I was so geeky I couldn’t even get laid by drunk chicks.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

I think we were talking about the ability of 18 year olds to make their own decisions.

Wouldn’t that depend on the consequences of those particular decisions?  I say let the voters decide.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

No, it isn’t; the doctors make the medical decision, and ask the parents’(of any age) permission to treat their child

Ha!
THe parent, in this case a teenager, must overlook the general health of the minor child.
When that health level drops to a certain level, they have the authority,ney..responsibility, to seek further health assistance.
THat is a medical decision.
And fundementalists that refuse to get help at an appropriate time are usually charged with failing to get medical treatment.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

That shows a given level of maturity is assumed.

Not necessarily; it simply means that it is generally recognized as the right of parents to speak for their children; there is no assumption of competency, just responsibility.  If a parent is legally determined to be not capable of being responsible(chronic alcoholism is one possible reason, btw), then, and only then, does the State take over, after trying to find competent relatives first.
Again, this has nothing to do with teenage drinking.
Where’s that list of positive aspects of teenage drinking?  Even one would be nice.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

We’re talking about behavior that has no negative consequences here(inheriting money), and therefore has no need for laws governing it.

Would you please give a link to a Law that stipulates the minium age of a Trust Fund payout?
/I know you won’t/can’t & were just puking so my asking is more rhetorical than anything else..

Again, please name the positive benefits of teenage drinking

And now, there has to be a positive benefit?
What’s the positive benefit of allowing a 16 year old to drive a car?

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

I say let the voters decide.

That’s what I’m saying as well.  I’m making points that the voters ought to at least consider.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Ah, the tyranny of the majority. I read about that.

Main Entry:
  tyr·an·ny Listen to the pronunciation of tyranny
Pronunciation:
  \ˈtir-ə-nē\
Function:
  noun
Inflected Form(s):
  plural tyr·an·nies
Etymology:
  Middle English tyrannie, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin tyrannia, from Latin tyrannus tyrant
Date:
  14th century

1: oppressive power

; especially : oppressive power exerted by government

2 a: a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state b: the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
3: a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force

4: a tyrannical act

“The tyranny of the majority” is not an accurate term, especially with free people making free choices in representative elections.

Of course I’m making a political argument that the 21 year old drinking age is wrong.

Exactly.  This is the “teenage anarchy” argument for license.

I can’t help but note that your positive argument was about having lots of irresponsible sex with youngsters with diminished capacity for judgment.  Nice.
I know you were kidding there, btw.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Would you please give a link to a Law that stipulates the minium age of a Trust Fund payout?  My point was that there is no such law, get it?  It’s just not necessary; a minimum drinking age is necessary, therefore we have laws governing that.  That’s my point, again.
/I know you won’t/can’t & were just puking so my asking is more rhetorical than anything else.. No, I was illustrating silliness by being silly.  You’re just not getting it. You were trying to equate things on the basis of age alone, and I maintain that there are lots of other considerations involved.

Again, please name the positive benefits of teenage
drinking

And now, there has to be a positive benefit? Yes, if you want to change something that major, you had better have some good reasons, don’t you think?
What’s the positive benefit of allowing a 16 year old to drive a car?  Considering the consequences, not much.

I guess it means we could have more underaged drunk drivers; you really think that’s a good idea?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

And fundementalists that refuse to get help at an appropriate time are usually charged with failing to get medical treatment.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with either their age or with teenage drinking.  It’s not just “fundamentalists”, btw; there are macrobiotics people, vegans, and health nuts that don’t have their kids vaccinated out of fear of “toxins”.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

My point was that there is no such law, get it?  It’s just not necessary; a minimum drinking age is necessary, therefore we have laws governing that.  That’s my point, again.

You bring up a “fact”, then, when cornered, you try to flip-flop?
Havn’t you castigated democrats for that very thing?
. .

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with either their age or with teenage drinking.

Au contraire, mon fraire!
A teen is making a medical decision.
Of course, because it defeats your lame contention, you’ll refuse to accept it.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

You bring up a “fact”, then, when cornered, you try to flip-flop? Havn’t you castigated democrats for that very thing?
.

The only fact I brought up is that there is no law regulating the age of being able to receive a trust fund, because there is no need for such a law.  There is a reason for regulating underage drinking, though, which is why we have such regulation.  It’s more than just age, again; it’s about the outcome.

A teen is making a medical decision.

Wrong again; in your hypothetical, a teen parent is taking responsibility for what happens to his or her child.  The medical decision is made by the doctor or doctors.
In any event, none of this makes teenage drinking any less stupid, dangerous or destructive.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Let’s stop screwing around and admit that tougher DUI laws would take care of that problem. Today, I could be drunk out of my mind and cause a vehicle accident killing the other driver. I would be charged with reckless driving, negligent homicide and the DUI would be a misdemeanor. Like the unfortunate case of Zsa Zsa’s sister, the driver would be allowed to continue to drive. No matter what, we can’t deny the driver his livelihood. It is time for 3 strikes you’re out. As far as binge drinking goes, if the idiot drinks himself to death sin loi (as they say in Viet Nam). We are too informed today to not be aware of the dangers of over consumption. It’s all about individual responsibility.

Whistler and Robert,

You’re both off-topic. The issue here is whether or not 18 year olds are mature enough to trust with alcohol and cars, not whether they are they are mature enough to trust with other decisions.

The fact of the matter is, statistics show that raising the drinking age saves lives. Period. That’s it.

Now Whistler likes to ask questions, so I’ll pose him one (just to show how disingenuous argument by question is):

Since college kids are continuously defaulting on their credit and student loans, and we can’t seem to trust them with something much less life-threatening like money, how do you propose to argue that we should trust them with alcohol and cars?

Rob,

As Chris quite aptly pointed out, the “they can die for our country but they can’t drink” argument makes no sense. One has nothing to do with the other. We don’t reward our professional soldiers with alcohol, we reward them with a paycheck and student aid.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Since college kids are continuously defaulting on their credit and student loans, and we can’t seem to trust them with something much less life-threatening like money, how do you propose to argue that we should trust them with alcohol and cars?

Some do have problems paying their loans.  Then again many adults over the age of 21 also have that problem.

Many adults over the age of 21 also have problems with alcohol.

By your reasoning we should just ban everything because some people can’t handle it.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

But I will tell you one thing, your average 18 year old in the military is no more able to drink responsibly than the average 18 year old college student.  There is binge drinking in the barracks all the time.  Either the age should be lowered for all or it should be kept where it is and the argument about being able to drink because you can go to war is a red herring.

Of course this is correct! Just because you are old enough to serve, does not mean you are able to make sound decisions about drinking. I was a Preachers Kid, I never drank alcohol and I never had much of a taste for it or drugs; but going out on the town with other Marine buddies to places like Mexico, I drank beer with them and occasionally a Rum and Coke, not a lot, just enough to not be a pussy around my macho pals, men I had to serve with every day. I remember that one time, I was asked to drive back to Los Angeles from Tiajuana because everyone else was drunk and passed out, it wasn’t my car, it belonged to one of my drunk assed pals, and I really mean pals, members of a very special fraternity - the Corps. I did not then nor even today can I recall one mile of that trip. I just remember pulling up in front of my friends house. No one got hurt, but we all could have been killed because I was not used to alcohol and even though I didn’t drink a lot, I was sufficiently drunk to have wiped out short term memory and I am sure my reflexes sucked. Why did I drink at all? Peer pressure, I was 18 years old and I was not going to have my buddies think I was a wuss, I was a Marine and we didn’t wimp out. The same thing in Vietnam, while I resisted marijuana, and thank God I was never drunk in combat like a lot of my buddies were stoned, I got drunk in Saigon and any place I could, again I never had to drink much, but I was drunk enough that rather than keeping a eye out for snipers or kids or old ladies with bombs on their backs and covering my buddies backs, I was mellow and spaced out enough not to care and while by God’s Grace no one got hurt, they or I could have because I was not mature enough to make an adult decision, I was just not going to be called names and teased because I didn’t drink like real men.

My point is: An age for drinking responsibile has to do with the maturity of the average person, and it is designed to save lives. Yes, I know here at SAB under the color of freedom all drugs should be made legal and there should be no age limit on drugs, alcohol or sex, even for little kids. But, thank God many, many years ago people with BETTER judgment than most young adults today, determined that some age limits were necessary for the protection of our young people and yes that meant more mature and responsible young people had to live under the same restrictions; but the safety of the greater numbers meant something to the mature and real ADULTS of that time, and despite the irresponsible, free love, no age limits for a damn thing adults of today, I hope that the maturity and wisdom of real ADULTS will still prevail, because setting responsible age related behavior guidelines for the welfare of our younger generation is the right, more responsible, the real ADULT thing to do.

Robet108: Very good as always, keep up the good work.

Oh, the teach them how to drink responsibility at home bunch, what’s the matter, you are such mean drunks no one wants to be around you and so you want your little kids to be your drunken pals? Yeah, get em drunk, get them telling dirty stories, looking at pornograpy; and by all means keep you from admitting you have a problem with alcohol and don’t like being a solitary drunk!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

You’re both off-topic.

Wrong.  I have stayed on topic, with every answer I’ve made to the off-topic attempts at equivalence.  Teenage drinking isn’t really comparable to anything else; it is either good or bad according to the factors involved.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Well now you’re back on-topic Robert.

Whistler,

By your reasoning we should just ban everything because some people can’t handle it.

No, by my reasoning we set some reasonable standards. 18 for driving and enrolling in the military but 21 for drinking seems reasonable to me. In fact, considering the maturity of the asshats I went to college with, I would raise the drinking age a few more years.

I think kids are getting less and less mature because their parents are too busy fighting for their right to drink at a younger age to just focus on raising them well. My humble opinion.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Well now you’re back on-topic Robert.

Again, I never strayed, even while answering off-topic attempts at equivalence that were not valid; I pointed out how invalid they were, and kept insisting that they had nothing to do with the dangers of teenage drinking.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

By your reasoning we should just ban everything because some people can’t handle it.

Not really; the real reasoning is that children aren’t ready to handle adult responsibilities, so why be stupid?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Maybe kids are immature because we treat them as immature.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Maybe kids are immature because we treat them as immature.

Yea, and maybe if I brew my dog a cup of coffee every morning, he’ll put on a tie and go to work in my stead.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Yea, and maybe if I brew my dog a cup of coffee every morning, he’ll put on a tie and go to work in my stead.

My dog likes his coffee sweet with a bit of cream.  I don’t know what’s wrong with him.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Either way. The main point (to my mind) is that we did treat kids more maturely before we raised the drinking age. What did they do? They killed each other, themselves, and innocent adults in DUI collisions. The federal drinking age law was passed as a result, and it has been successful in lowering DUI related deaths. So it’s not a problem that needs fixing.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Raising the drinking age to 65 would save even more people.

As a benefit those in my age bracket might actually even not drink because of the law.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Raising the drinking age to 65 would save even more people.

Check above when I said “reasonable standards,” and you’ll understand why the parade of horribles is a logical fallacy.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I don’t think it’s reasonable to keep the responsible young adults from alcohol while irresponsible adults young and not so young are out there chugging away all the time.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

So give them drugs and booze and it will make them more mature? Encourage families of hard drinking, drug addict parents to teach their kids maturity by getting them responsibily stoned and/or drunk at home and in their cribs, play room or throwing up in the toilet?

My God in Heaven, where do you people come from? Maybe, just freaking maybe, children are immature because that is what immature means, NOT YET MATURE through advancing age and life experiences. I know Whistler, give your kid a bomb and tell him you expect him to handle it responsibly. Or, take your five year-old to a whorehouse and tell him to screw that whore in a mature, responsible manner. What do you think your chances are for a mature decision by him? Maybe, just maybe they need time to grow up, but oops, that ain’t happening because the 13 year-old next door got drunk legally, drove his daddy’s car into your kids bedroom and killed him. But, hey, you trusted his parents to help your neighbor kid to get drunk responsibly, they failed, your kid is dead. Or, just freaking OR, your neighbor kid has to stay sober until he is 21 and with the addition of years, as a mature young man, drinks responsibily.

This is asinine in the extreme. Thank God we had more responsible, real ADULTS that passed these laws and God willing there are still enough to resist the irresponsible young, faux, drugged up and drunk adults of today that want to lower the legal age to the peril of other, innocent human beings. Those real ADULTS of the past loved our children as our future, some of you guys want our future stoned, drunk or dead!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

I don’t think it’s reasonable to keep the responsible young adults from alcohol while irresponsible adults young and not so young are out there chugging away all the time.

That you may think, but statistics prove you wrong.

I personally don’t believe that anything that can only hurt the user should be regulated, but alcohol isn’t one of those things (innocent people get hurt). Since regulation is necessary, the regulation needs to be reasonable. 21 is reasonable because it seems that’s where you begin to see diminishing returns (meaning, if you raise past 21, you won’t get results as good as when we got by raising from 18 to 21). That’s what I meant by “reasonable.”

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I know Whistler, give your kid a bomb and tell him you expect him to handle it responsibly.

Only very small bombs.  He’s working up from firecrackers.

So give them drugs and booze and it will make them more mature? Encourage families of hard drinking, drug addict parents to teach their kids maturity by getting them responsibily stoned and/or drunk at home and in their cribs, play room or throwing up in the toilet?

I don’t doubt that’s happening but since it’s already illegal I don’t think the laws are doing anything to stop the serious stupidity.  On the other hand they are stopping responsible parents from teaching kids how to consume alcohol.

You’re anecdote about the night you were out with your Marine buddies is case in point.  Do you think kids should learn to drink from other kids or do you think they should learn what it’s like at home?

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

That you may think, but statistics prove you wrong.

Are we claiming that passing the law means no younger folks are drinking? 

You posted a graph showing the year by year deaths from alcohol related accidents.  That’s a pretty broad statistic that is by itself meaningless.

Also during the time they raised drinking ages there was a massive amount of enforcement as well as education on the matter.

Another factor is that accident rates have fallen over time as well.

I think you could come up with a fairly decent statistic comparing areas that already had a 21 year old drinking limit with areas that increased the drinking age.  You’d have to be careful in that while North Dakota has always had a 21 age limit, some 19 year olds (ahem) were known to go to the bars in Minnesota and drive home in ND. 

But until we control for the other DUI strategies, that graph doesn’t show much.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Are we claiming that passing the law means no younger folks are drinking? 

Umm, no. I don’t think I need to claim that to show that there is a trend of less DUI related deaths after the drinking age was raised.

But until we control for the other DUI strategies, that graph doesn’t show much.

It shows that for the first few years after the law was passed, DUI related deaths spiked DOWN. So… umm… yea…

I guess you can choose to ignore the plainly obvious.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Whistler: I my opinion, you simply do not in any way, shape, manner or form understand what immaturity means: lacking the wisdom or emotional development usually associated with adults, young, and not fully grown or developed.

So, no matter how many times you toss back a few beers with your children, from ages of toddler to college years, it will have nothing to do with their maturity, nothing. Maturity comes with age and accumulated life experiences, it is not imposed, it does not grow in the beer yeast or marijuana leaves; and we do not need them getting those experiences while drunk or stoned at home with drunken mommy and daddy. I had to as a young man learn to resist temptation and handle such things responsibly or I would die, either on the road or in some stinking rice paddie in Vietnam. Being a good drinker, able to consume more booze like my buddies would never have given my that maturity. My parents could not impose it, it came with passing years.

We have learned that on average sufficient maturity arrives around 21 years of age to allow people to make responsible, mature decisions that for the most part will occur.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

post hoc ergo propter hoc

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

So, no matter how many times you toss back a few beers with your children

I wasn’t saying that consuming brewski’s with the kids matures them.  On the other hand learning what effect it has on you isn’t a bad thing to learn in the family setting. 

And of course it doesn’t really call for maturity for the kids to have a glass of wine at a family setting.  The parents have the maturity to see that things don’t go to far.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

So, keep the current drinking laws, with the ammendment that our fighting men and women under 18 are allowed to crack a cold one. By the time you’ve entered armed service, you most likely have a far different mentality than the majority of drunken frat boys at universities (and even if you don’t, you have your priorities in order).

Don’t use the “I can fight, I can drink” argument if you have no plans to actually do any real fighting.

I’m of the age where I don’t have to worry about getting carded nor do I have to worry that the armed forces would take me.

Still I’m going to use the “If an 18 year old can sign up for the armed forces then they shouldn’t be treated like children.”

It’s not a personal agenda thing for me (never actually was as I could drink at 19) but it is a sign of respect in that part of the argument.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Wouldn’t that depend on the consequences of those particular decisions?

Voting has some pretty heavy consequences.  Maybe we should raise the voting age? 

I was married and had two children WELL before I turned 21.  I was a responsible, gainfully employed young woman.  So…  I could get married, hold a job and have kids…  but heaven forbid I have a beer.    Lumping all people under 21 into one category is silly. 

I think its been stated above, but I will say it again…  just in case.  I have seen PLENTY of people over 21 who make irresponsbile decisions about alcohol.  I personally know four people who are in their 30s and have gotten a DUI in the 12 months.  (Idiots… there is no excuse for drunk driving…  NONE!)

If you can vote, join the military (which requires an important decision with serious consequences!), and go to jail based on your own choices at 18, you should also be able to make decisions about alcohol consumption.

Just my opinion… 

If you can vote, join the military (which requires an important decision with serious consequences!), and go to jail based on your own choices at 18, you should also be able to make decisions about alcohol consumption.

Once you drink too much, all the rest goes out the window, no matter what age you are;  why start so young being stupid?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

no matter what age you are

Exactly!

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Well… considering our divorce rate is so high…  maybe we should raise the age for marriage to 21 too. 

I think you missed my point.  The decision should still be left in the hands of adults…  which this society deems to be 18.

PS…  ‘drinking’  does not = getting drunk/stupid.

Exactly!

So, why start so young with such stupid and destructive behavior?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

To avoid the need to make up for lost time.

Or more seriously because it’s not right to punish people for the failures of others.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Or more seriously because it’s not right to punish people for the failures of others.

So, not being able to get drunk and stupid until the age of 21 is punishment?  Or is it like getting “punished” with a baby?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!