Say Anything Blog

It’s worth noting that the article makes clear that social services was already involved, but had not taken action to obtain a warrant.  This is about the failure of social services to take action when appropriate, not about anything to do with homeschooling.

I seriously doubt that any Times staffers went through the public school system as is.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

So rediculous, any parent who is mentally sick and wants to keep his or her children in his or her range of control is going to say they are taking care of schooling at home. I wonder if she had purchased any homeschooling materials recently. I wonder if she had been making sure they were keeping up on their studies. I wonder if she gave them exams.

She was not home schooling her daughters. She was lying to cover up what she was doing. This article has nothing to do ith homeschooling and everything to do with the government taking control of families in order to protect them from themselves.

Aren’t the public schools some of the most dangerous crime/drug ridden places in the country?

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Where did these NYT’s writer’s go to school? Where ever they went, I’ll be sure not sending my children!

Why? Because abusive parents can stay home and abuse their kids instead of keeping them under the watchful eye of the state.

Don’t parents of kids that go to school have the opportunity to abuse their kids when they aren’t in school.

On the other hand if parents don’t send their kids to school the perverts in school are out of luck.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

although parents are supposed to file an “intent to withdraw from school” form with the district, something that did not happen in the Jacks case, although school social workers made several attempts to visit the family and reported the childrens’ absence from school to authorities.

WAIT… WAIT… these children were still enrolled in the public school system so where does the blame of home schooling come in to it?
Only person to blame is the murdering mother. End of story.

Aren’t the public schools some of the most dangerous crime/drug ridden places in the country?

Whistler,

Certainly Not!  After all, they’ve got all those well crafted Zero Tolerance policies in place.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Thanks Bat, what was I thinking?

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Isn’t it sobering to think that the writer of this article, along with several of his sources and presumably a lot of his readers, seems to think that it’s the government’s right to perform surveillance on children as if the 4th Amendment didn’t apply?

And well said, Anna; what we have here is the failure of a social worker to act on numerous things, including no valid withdrawal (they were thus truant), failure to take a look at the records of the landlord/utility/etc..  What this actually has to do with homeschooling is beyond me.

By the way, it actually turns out that government schools are safer, by and large, than the neighborhoods they’re in.  The reason is simple; most schools today have pretty much a dedicated beat officer to prevent further Columbine-style attacks.

That no tolerance policy really seems to be working well. NOT!

New York Times Says That Homeschooling Kills People
By Rob on January 16, 2008

New York Times does not say Homeschooling Kills Peopleyou just made that up and the sheep followed you.

Whistler,

Certainly Not!  After all, they’ve got all those well crafted Zero Tolerance policies in place.

And thank God too. Otherwise two crazy kids might’ve shot up their school and killed a lot of students in some Colorado town, at a place called Columbine!

Oh...wait....

New York Times does not say Homeschooling Kills Peopleyou just made that up and the sheep followed you.

I think a fair reading of the article will give a reader the idea that the Times was trying to convince people that homeschooling contributed to the death of these four little girls.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Ellinas, sorry, but that’s what one would have to infer from the article; the claim that if homeschooling is not heavily regulated, abusers will use it as cover to injure and even kill those young skulls full of mush.

And it’s flat out false, and anyone who reads the article carefully knows that the very author of the article, and most of his sources, know that it’s a contention completely unsupported by evidence.

Either the author (and his sources) are completely untrained in logic, or they’re carrying a bias around that will allow them to pull hit jobs on those they dislike.  Either one isn’t exactly ethical.

Once again: New York Times does not say Homeschooling Kills People.
Y’all are imagining non existant things.

If anyone reads beyond the headline of this article or the NYT’s article (presuming they’re similar) it’s apparent this ludicrous idea won’t catch fire.

This is lefty.

I can’t believe they actually pay people real money to write such idiodic trash.

[Feet make good soup!]

What’s scary is that people pay good money to read that trash.

Not as many as there used to be.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

This is not new!

In Europe and even in Canada, homeschooling is under a vicious attack, some children even being taken by force away from their parents, at least one placed in a mental institution, parents arrested and losing their children to the State and others forced to flee their home country to escape the heavy hand of the state. The common thread, which is even appearing in the US, is that the state believes they should have total control over the next generation, controlling what information they receive, what they believe and even how they vote.

The state considers homeschooling dangerous, not because the education is inferior, in fact is is almost always greatly superior; but because they believe that children are not receiving a ‘liberal’ education and developing liberal social-moral values are being abused by the family and being denied the benefits of a socialist education model.

This is not the beginning, it has been going in America for several decades and it will get worse and there is nothing you can do about it, period. You no longer have any rights over the education and beliefs of your children. This war is over!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Ellinas said:

Once again: New York Times does not say Homeschooling Kills People.
Y’all are imagining non existant things.

So, to the article:

Ten states and the District of Columbia, where Banita M. Jacks was charged on Thursday with four counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of her four daughters, have no regulations regarding home schooling, not even the requirement that families notify the authorities that they are educating their children at home.

The lack of supervision of the home-schooling process, some experts say, may have made it easier last year for Ms. Jacks to withdraw her children from school and the prying eyes of teachers, social workers and other professionals who otherwise might have detected signs of abuse and neglect of the girls.

It does indeed say that the lack of government oversight of homeschooling made such murders like these possible. The ENTIRE focus of the article is to use a murder to argue that there needs to be more government regulation of homeschooling.

While you’re correct that the article doesn’t say “Homeschooling kills children!” you ignore the fact that it pushes hard with the theory that “These kids would still be alive if homeschooling was monitored better!”

There’s nothing to suggest this woman was homeschooling her children. She was a serial abuser (and I doubt that this was anything new).Yet this case is used to indict homeschooling. And you’re being dishonest in claiming otherwise.

The public school covered their portion of the responsibility in this situation. But, either way, it doesn’t matter whether you public school your children, home school your children or sell your children to gypsies traveling through town… the mom is the one at fault here. The safety of the children are the responsibility of the parents.

Kenny part of the article that you quote says:
”

The lack of supervision of the home-schooling process, some experts say, may have made it easier last year for Ms. Jacks to withdraw her children from school and the prying eyes of teachers, social workers and other professionals who otherwise might have detected signs of abuse and neglect of the girls

It is quite a leap in your part to say the “New York Times say Homeschooling Kills People”. You are hallucinating. Get of the pipe.

So Mrs Jacks wasn’t homeschooling but homeschoolings to blame.

Bullpoop.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Yes Whistler, we pointed out that fact earlier. Sheesh.... get with it lil’ puppy

Sorry I was repeating it for Ellinas, who must have been a crackerjack cop since she’s out there blaming homeschoolers for the murder rather than the person who killed the kids.

Sorry I was repeating it for Ellinas, who must have been a crackerjack cop since she’s out there blaming homeschoolers for the murder rather than the person who killed the kids.

Sorry I was repeating it for Ellinas, who must have been a crackerjack cop since she’s out there blaming homeschoolers for the murder rather than the person who killed the kids.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Sorry I was repeating it for Ellinas, who must have been a crackerjack cop since she’s out there blaming homeschoolers for the murder rather than the person who killed the kids.
The Whistler on January 16, 2008 at 08:36 pm

Get of the pipe. Never said homeschooling killed the kids. Never blamed the homeschoolers. Your right wing nuttiness is showing.

Get of the pipe.

Nifty word usement.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Get off the pipe. Never said homeschooling killed the kids. Never blamed the homeschoolers. Your right wing nuttiness is showing.

Feel better now?

Never blamed the homeschoolers.

You bolded that point at 9:16.  It’s BS but you repeat it and even make the point stronger.

Why are you hostile to people that don’t want their kids indoctrinated (or worse) in the public schools?

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

It is quite a leap in your part to say the “New York Times say Homeschooling Kills People”. You are hallucinating. Get of the pipe.

Ellinas, I repeat:

While you’re correct that the article doesn’t say “Homeschooling kills children!” you ignore the fact that it pushes hard with the theory that “These kids would still be alive if homeschooling was monitored better!”

I addressed that. The article doesn’t say “Homeschooling kills kids.” It does say “lack of regulations kills kids.” Yet it goes on to say that the mother withdrew her kids BREAKING the current rules. Yet the system did nothing about it. Again, there is NO reason we should believe she homeschooled her kids. Yet the entire article is a shot against homeschooling.

Stop telling me to drop the crack pipe, and stop dodging the issue.

The article is indeed about the dangers of homeschooling. But the mother already broke the law (no consequence), and the state didn’t do what they were supposed to. There is no evidence that she homeschooled her children. Yet the entire article uses her as an indictment against homeschooling.

Here...let’s put a right wing spin on it for your tiny mind to get it.

Headline: Public School Child Kills 50 in Gun Spree at Anti-Gun rally.

Now, if the article reveals the boy went to Catholic school and shot up an NRA rally, you’d rightfully call bullshit. Yet in an article that says “homeschooling=bad”, yet admits she wasn’t homeschooling, and this was a failing of the state anyways...you defend the article.

Again, you’re being dishonest.

If I said I found Woof (for illustrative purposes only) in an airport stall with Larry Craig, I wouldn’t need to point out Woof’s proclivities, it would be obvious to most.

This is the kind of subtlety, or in this case not so subtle, that Elinas obviously misses. Who would expect the uber liberal NYT to decry home schooling in favor for one of their favored interest groups (NEA,etc.). It’s retarded to not think that the NYT was trying to link their deaths with the fact that they were home-schooled, unless someone has a valid reason that the term home-schooled (or, schooled-at-home) was mentioned 15 times in the article.

But please, we can debate where children are safer (deaths, bullying, injuries, etc. per student)in public schools v. home schooling, and who does better academically. Might want to put the social service system under a microscope as well.

""That’s the problem with you lefties, you’re not willing to get your hands dirty. I’d suggest you roll up your sleeves.”

-Jack Bauer

They weren’t even en homeschooled.  The times is claiming that without homeschooling the state would have known something was going on and stopped it.

Apparently homeschooling interferes with their superhero powers.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Why are you hostile to people that don’t want their kids indoctrinated (or worse) in the public schools?
The Whistler on January 16, 2008 at 09:34 pm

I am not hostile to homeschooling.
You want to homeschool your kids or grandkids? Well shit. Go ahead. It does not bother me.
But accusing me of hostility towards people that homeschool shows that indeed you are hooked on the pipe.

indeed you are hooked on the pipe.

Why are you hostile to those that point out your hostility to homeschooling?

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

The article doesn’t say “Homeschooling kills kids.” It does say “lack of regulations kills kids.”
Kenny on January 16, 2008 at 10:05 pm

Thank you Kenny for admitting the obvious.
I reread the article and once again was left with the impression that it only calls for some regulation of homeschooling and is (the article) a brief description of homeschooling.
The only difference in the interpretation of the article between you and me I ascribe to your right wing nuttiness,or the pipe.

e: If your position is to have any merit at all, you must explain why homeschooling is mentioned at all, if you want to keep maintaining that this isn’t an attack on homeschooling.  You have yet to do that.  You keep trying to deny the obvious.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

But please, we can debate where children are safer (deaths, bullying, injuries, etc. per student)in public schools v. home schooling, and who does better academically. Might want to put the social service system under a microscope as well.
Hoss on January 17, 2008 at 07:47 am

Hoss putting the social service system under a microscope is an excellent idea. I agree with you. They are not doing their jobs Children die every day because of the incompetence of the social services.

I do not wish to debate homeschooling versus public schools because that is not why I posted on this thread. I am not opposed to homeschooling. What I found interesting was how the article is interpretted different between people with different political beliefs. In this case right wingers see monsters where there are none, or lefties fail to see the monsters when there is a room full of them.

Robert108 the killer claimed she was homeschooling.

Robert108 the killer claimed she was homeschooling.

Which led to the conclusion that homeschooling was to blame for the death of her children.  Thanks for coming around to the truth.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

In this case right wingers see monsters where there are none, or lefties fail to see the monsters when there is a room full of them.

Actually, it’s much simpler than that; by mentioning that the killer homeschooled her children(or claimed to), the original article implied a causal link between the two.  It’s not that hard to understand, since lefties don’t want anyone to break up their monopoly on the education of children, especially by a superior product.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Robert108 the killer claimed she was homeschooling.

Which led to the conclusion that homeschooling was to blame for the death of her children.  Thanks for coming around to the truth.

robert108 on January 17, 2008 at 09:33 am

I read the article and it did not lead me to conclude that homeschooling was to blame for the death of her children.
It was abuntandly clear to me that the mother and only the mother killed her children.

I read the article and it did not lead me to conclude that homeschooling was to blame for the death of her children.

By mentioning homeschooling as often as they did, the NYT implied a causal link.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

that is your and your friends opinion which I reject as untrue.

that is your and your friends opinion which I reject as untrue.

There’s a sucker born every minute.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

"Lack of Supervision Noted in Deaths of Home-Schooled

By JANE GROSS
Published: January 12, 2008

Ten states and the District of Columbia, where Banita M. Jacks was charged on Thursday with four counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of her four daughters, have no regulations regarding home schooling, not even the requirement that families notify the authorities that they are educating their children at home.”

Notice the title, e, seems fairly straightforward.

And in the very first paragraph is a demonstrable lie,"not even the requirement that families notify the authorities that they are educating their children at home.”, right there is a lie. In no school district in this country can you simply not send your children to school, or remove them without doing a great deal of paper work.

DC CFSA and the school administrators failed in their jobs. Abysmally failed. Home schooling had not one thing to do with this.

After missing 5 consecutive school days CFSA and truancy officers from DCPS should have been at her door, with Metro Police officer in tow. Had they done their jobs some of these girls may possibly have been saved.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Home schooling had not one thing to do with this.
2Hotel9 on January 17, 2008 at 10:50 am

How many times must I repeat my self to get it through to you guys and gals?
Here I go once more: Homeschooling had nothing to do with the deaths of these children.

Here I go once more: Homeschooling had nothing to do with the deaths of these children.

Unlike what the NYT implied.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

"Lack of Supervision Noted in Deaths of Home-Schooled
By JANE GROSS
Published: January 12, 2008

Ok! So what.  Lack of supervision is noted. So note the “Lack of Supervision” and go to the undisputed fact that the killer is the mother.

Here I go once more: Homeschooling had nothing to do with the deaths of these children.

Unlike what the NYT implied.

robert108 on January 17, 2008 at 11:20 am

Just your opinion Robert108, just your opinion.

Thank you Kenny for admitting the obvious.
I reread the article and once again was left with the impression that it only calls for some regulation of homeschooling and is (the article) a brief description of homeschooling.
The only difference in the interpretation of the article between you and me I ascribe to your right wing nuttiness,or the pipe.

I admitted it the first time.

What is this nonsense about constantly accusing all of those who disagree with you of “being on the pipe.” It’s not our fault you’re dishonestly denying the painfully obvious. The Vast Majority of the article has nothing to do with the actual children murdered. It goes into detail about Home Schooling Regulations and various experts opinions on whether or not homeschooling allows loopholes for abusive parents.

Conclusion of the Article: If the government had more power these kids would still be alive today.

This is no different than all the articles after Columbine that blamed Marilyn Manson for the slaughter, or those that blamed violent video games for Virginia Tech. It’s assinine to look at an article about the deaths of four little children...that barely talks about those children, and instead delves into the homeschooling system at length...and claim, “Nope, no connection.”

You’re doing the net equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and screaming “LALALALALALA.”

Just your opinion Robert108, just your opinion.

The truth, e; the truth, despite your inability to see it.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Conclusion of the Article: If the government had more power these kids would still be alive today.
Kenny on January 17, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Your conclusion not mine. I have long concluded that no amount of government power (ok maybe ESP) could have stopped the killer.

The entire article is a load of crap, period. Your continued lame-assed defense of a lie-filled leftard attack against something that had nothing to do with the murder of those girls is laughable. The small fact that this woman was not homeschooling rams that lie right up your and Ms Gross’ asses.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

The small fact that this woman was not homeschooling rams that lie right up your and Ms Gross’ asses.
2Hotel9 on January 17, 2008 at 05:37 pm

That is a small fact. She was not homeschooling.
She was pretending.
Now up up yours bud.

Getting off the subject for a second, did you ever raise any more chickens?

She was not even pretending to. Homeschooling had ZERO to do with any of this.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

She was not even pretending to. Homeschooling had ZERO to do with any of this.
2Hotel9 on January 17, 2008 at 06:38 pm

Of course homeschooling had nothing to do with this.
It is murder plain and simple.
Conclusion:
A) Homeschooling does not kill people
B) NYT did not say homeschooling kills people
C)The murderess did not homeschool
D)Y’all are not on pipe. Just paranoid from time to time.

NYT did not say homeschooling kills people

They implied it; it’s an old leftie trick called guilt by association. That’s why they mentioned it.  You don’t seem bright enough to perceive this obvious fact, e.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

More lefty tricks

Going to bed early eases the effects of right wing paranoia as it regenerates dead brain cells.
You see non existant left wing conspiracies and act like a chicken with its head cut off.
It is a long leap of faith to suggest that the article was saying that homeschooling kills people.

Yet again one has to wonder. Is the article a news article or an opinion piece. Opinions as you know it are like assholes. Everybody has one.

It is a long leap of faith to suggest that the article was saying that homeschooling kills people.

It was guilt by association(otherwise, there was no need to mention homeschooling at all, as you have already admitted), just the same tactic you use from time to time, when you can’t come up with a logical argument.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

It was guilt by association(otherwise, there was no need to mention homeschooling at all, as you have already admitted), just the same tactic you use from time to time, when you can’t come up with a logical argument.
robert108 on January 17, 2008 at 08:19 pm

The pot is caqlling the kettle black.
Yet again I learned from the master.

The pot is caqlling the kettle black. No logic at all here, just namecalling, and juvenile at that.
Yet again I learned from the master. And yet you still seem so ignorant...

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

New York Times Says That Homeschooling Kills People

By Rob on January 16, 2008 at 01:40 pm

By mentioning homeschooling as often as they did,

the NYT implied a causal link

Did it say it, or did it imply it?
Which is it?

ellinas, seriously....

Did it say it, or did it imply it? Which is it?

I repeat(for the last time, I hope); they implied it.  Rob used the wrong word, IMO, but you are completely dishonest in the entire scope of your “argument"(mostly namecalling, faulty logic, and denial).

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

He did not use the wrong word.
He was less than truthfull saying that the NYT said that homeschooling kills people.
Enough on the subject.
Until we cross keyboards again....Good night.
It is always a pleasure debating an old unrepetant right winger like you.

Your conclusion not mine. I have long concluded that no amount of government power (ok maybe ESP) could have stopped the killer.

It was the ARTICLE’S conclusion.

And you keep denying the article made a link. No one cares what YOU believe. We’re debating the meaning of the article. And the article clearly makes the link between homeschooling and these kids being dead.

Expecting honesty out of a leftist is like expected a beagle to fly.

It is always a pleasure debating an old unrepetant right winger like you.

You continue to illustrate your ignorance; conservatives aren’t “right-wingers”.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Ok! Ok! you unrepetant conservative old dog you!!!!

Kenny. I am being honest. Nowhere in the article did I read that homeschooling kills people. What I did read and gather is that the killer pretended to be homeschooling, and that homeschooling may need to be regulated. An inteligent person would have to distinguish between a news article and an opinion piece. A casual reader though reading Robs title of the thread would surmise that indeed yhe NYT said that homeschooling kills people.

There’s never any need to repent for telling the truth.
The article very strongly implied that homeschooling was at least one of the causes of the death of those children, by repeated(and completely unnecessary) association.  It’s patently obvious, and lefties hate homeschooling(since it removes children from their public indoctrination centers), and wish to put it in the worst light possible.  You should know by now that the MSM very rarely does straight news, that it’s always mixed with opinion.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

So, your position is that this,"Lack of Supervision Noted in Deaths of Home-Schooled” does not indicate that homeschooling places children at risk, possibly of death. As for not sending your kids to school and saying"I intend to homeschool”, that is BS. Your kids are registered to attend public school you have to go through a pile of crap in order to stop their attendance in said school.

Bottom line. Your vaunted social services failed. Failed abysmally. This woman and her children were IN THE SYSTEM! Had been for years, and as soon as these children had missed 5 consecutive days of school, DCPS and CFSA should have found out what the hell the problem was, since those children and their mother were ALREADY in the social services system. Not just in DC, also in 2 counties in Maryland where they had lived.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I, a leftie by your estimation do not hate,dislike, or oppose homeschooling. I don’t give a rats ass what the NYT thinks.

2Hotel9 I don’t for a minute believe that the social services are doing their job. I’ll be the first one to critisize them. What I understand about the case is that these kids were doomed no matter what.

I don’t give a rats ass what the NYT thinks.

Then why all the contentious comments about an article which deals with what the NYT thinks?  Cognitive dissonance.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

And yet you continue to defend them.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I am not defending NYT. The headline of this thread is deceptive.

So, you’re defending the NYT against Rob’s “deceptive” comment, then?  What’s your interest here?

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

And yet you continue to defend them.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

So, you’re defending the NYT against Rob’s “deceptive” comment, then?  What’s your interest here?
robert108 on January 18, 2008 at 06:42 pm

No. I think y’all get paranoid from time to time.
I wanted to reasure you guys and gals that it aint so!

No. I think y’all get paranoid from time to time. I wanted to reasure you guys and gals that it aint so!

Has anyone here asked you for reassurance?
Paranoia is a figment of your imagination; we know what the NYT intended to convey.
Why not just tell the truth?

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Because the truth will undermine her defense of NYT and its “reporters’” attacks against homeschoolers. A cursory search of their archives will yield 30 pieces in 5 years, all denigrating homeschooling,vouchers, and charter/private schools. And their venomous attacks against parochial schools, with the exception of Muslim run schools, are widely renowned.

Which is hilarious, seeing as the majority of upper level “journalists” and management are graduates of parochial and private schools. Not to mention all being alumni of some of the most exclusive and bigoted colleges on the planet.

Rather telling, who she chooses to defend, while taking an oblique crap all over 4 children murdered because the social services system employees she praises endlessly refused to do their fucking job.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Reassurance it ain’t so? No thank you, elianus,