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Sunday, July 08, 2007

New York Times: Genocide In Iraq A Small Price To Pay For Ending Bush’s War

The New York Times has an editorial saying “It is time for the United States to leave Iraq, without any more delay than the Pentagon needs to organize an orderly exit.” This is creating a lot of buzz, though why (as this has basically been the position of the Times editorial staff for some time now) is beyond me.  But what’s interesting is that the Times makes this call despite admitting the following:

...Iraq, and the region around it, could be even bloodier and more chaotic after Americans leave. There could be reprisals against those who worked with American forces, further ethnic cleansing, even genocide. Potentially destabilizing refugee flows could hit Jordan and Syria. Iran and Turkey could be tempted to make power grabs. Perhaps most important, the invasion has created a new stronghold from which terrorist activity could proliferate.

The administration, the Democratic-controlled Congress, the United Nations and America’s allies must try to mitigate those outcomes — and they may fail. But Americans must be equally honest about the fact that keeping troops in Iraq will only make things worse.

So leaving Iraq could result in genocide (would, in my estimation).  Iran would move in and set up a puppet regime run by the Shiite majority.  The parliament and constitution created by the people of Iraq would be torn down.  The country would become a rogue nation once again, riddled with camps of terrorists plotting and training for attacks against Israel and the west.  The people of the country would be oppressed once again under the cruel practices of extremist Islam, and out of the chaos some new strongman like Saddam Hussein would undoubtedly arise (born of either Iranian sponsorship or fierce opposition to Iranian rule) to inflict his cruel will on Iraqis and the whole region.

And why?  Because the ivory tower liberals at the New York Times think that’s preferable to continuing the fight against al Qaeda in Iraq, training Iraqi security forces and working with the elected government of the Iraqi people (as imperfect as that government may be).

I don’t know about the rest of you, but that sort of reasoning leaves me feeling more than a little nauseated.  For an editorial board that just a few months ago was bemoaning the lack of international action to stop genocide in Darfur, the Times sure doesn’t have any qualms about risking that same sort of genocide (though many orders of magnitude worse) in Iraq.

Comments

Following this logic we should leave behind a bunch of nukes to eliminate the threat, since the NY Times is into genocide.....


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


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The Whistler on July 8, 2007 at 02:37 pm
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So leaving Iraq could result in genocide

and is this the same group that thinks genocide in Dafur is a bad thing so we ought to go there?
I’m glad the NYT can keep it all straight!


Barack Obama: All hat and no cattle since 1997!


Proof on July 8, 2007 at 02:50 pm

Maybe Iraq would become (more of) a focus for the Shia-Sunni feud. I can imagine all Iraq’s neighbours weighing in, if they thought Iraq was going to have a shia fundamentalist government


Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight on July 8, 2007 at 03:17 pm

Man: So, instead of establishing a beachhead of modern representative govt in the heart of the ME, we allow it to degenerate into a civil war?  Not so smart.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on July 8, 2007 at 03:26 pm

I don’t disagree with you, read the context. If Iraq were to descend into civil war, then it could easily become the focus of a war between other nations.

I think that all that can be done in Iraq and Afghanistan is to support our troops and give them everything they need until the situation is stable.

Doesn’t mean I can’t speculate on Rob’s post.


Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight on July 8, 2007 at 03:40 pm
Avatar for halatbis

As in south-east Asia after the U.S. pulled out, the butchery will begin big-time in Iraq.  The liberal/Dems will call it Bush’s war and his fault that it all took place.  Reminds me of another time and person of long ago, “not of my doing, and none of my concern”.  “Please pass the wash bowl so I can wash my hands of the whole matter”.  So much for the compassionate liberals. As the NYT says, let’s move on to something important--like the 2008 elections.

halatbis on July 8, 2007 at 03:57 pm

Despite his ridicule of me under another thread, I completely agree with ManofFireandLight, the bloodbath in Iraq will be the least of our problems. Our leaving the field short of victory, cutting-and-running, will cause much of the Middle East to explode as the terrorists will be emboldened and encouraged to bring other nations in the area under Sharia Law and attack Israel once again. Add to this the fact that oil and gas prices will skyrocket in a time of instability and Chavez will be glad to help them put the pressure on the West; and I believe our economy will tank, with a general depression. I hope I am wrong, but those are the consequences I believe are highly possible.

If Bush had not invaded and with Saddam’s help the terrorists would have gotten some WMD’s and attacked Aemrican interests, the Democrats would have screamed for impeachment for failure to uphold his oath of office. If we win, the Democrats forced Bush to change policies and they get the credit. We lose now and halatbis is right it was all Bush’s fault. This was truly the no win scenario for Bush!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on July 8, 2007 at 04:14 pm

Force of arms for 5 years has been an escalating disaster. The administrations will has not been done.

Time to speak with those countries we
have refused to talk with. There will be no political solution without them.
The answer is always political.

Potentially destabilizing refugee flows could hit Jordan and Syria.

Couple of million Iraqis already there.
Life goes on.

Iran and Turkey could be tempted to make power grabs.

Persians will not run Arab Iraq,
Iraq&Iran are allies now.
Turkey is our ally.

A mule that has been mistreated will wait years for chance to kick you.
We have created a nation of mules in Iraq.
The US Military is who they kick.
Stop standing behind the mule.

WOOF on July 8, 2007 at 04:54 pm

Woof: Nothing is that clear cut!

For the same five years the Democrats and the MSM have, at every opportunity, given aid and comfort to the terrorists in Iraq, telling them just kill more American soldiers and we will cut-and-run and give you the victory. Without that encouragement, which even Al Queda has acknowledged, we would have cut the resistance short and been mostly out of there by now. Five years of an escalating disaster can be laid at the Democrats door.

Syria needs millions of workers now, so if the war ends they will be happy for the labor force.

If you think that our getting out will satisfy the enemy you are wrong. They will have their appetites wetted and they will expand thier efforts all over the Middle East. Oh and we will have to get out of Afghanistan ASAP if we lose Iraq!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on July 8, 2007 at 05:05 pm
Avatar for graybeard

Five years of an escalating disaster can be laid at the Democrats door.

Really?

The complete absence of a plan for the aftermath of invasion had no impact? (Rumsfeld)

Ignoring the recommendations of General Shinseki that we would need several hundred thousand troops on the ground to secure a country of 27 million? (Wolfowitz)

Disbanding the Iraqi army had no impact? (Bremer)

Failing to adequately secure stockpiles of explosives and firearms, which subsequently disappeared had no impact?

Employing unqualified Republican cronies to manage the restoration of basic services had no impact?

According to you, none those mistakes has anything to do with where we are today. It’s all the fault of the Democrats and the MSM, and Bush and his cheerleaders are innocent bystanders.

BULLSHIT!

I guess the fact that you’re terming it “an escalating disaster” is at least an acknoledgement of reality....finally.

graybeard on July 8, 2007 at 05:35 pm

The answer is always political.

Only to the Marxists like you, Woof.  Thus opens the door to totalitarian collectivist hell.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on July 8, 2007 at 05:50 pm

The liberal/Dems will call it Bush’s war and his fault that it all took place.  Reminds me of another time and person of long ago, “not of my doing, and none of my concern”.  “Please pass the wash bowl so I can wash my hands of the whole matter”.  So much for the compassionate liberals. As the NYT says, let’s move on to something important--like the 2008 elections.

It’s not that easy since the Leftards voted to go to war too, they can run but they can’t hide from their vote. Powell once said that if break you buy it. That is the case with Iraq. If we leave before its stable mark my words we will be back for a third time.


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goon on July 8, 2007 at 07:41 pm

It meaning Iraq…


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goon on July 8, 2007 at 07:42 pm

Graybeard you forgot the Propaganda machine of the MSM/left doing everything they could to hamstrung the soldiers and the president in running and executing this war.


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goon on July 8, 2007 at 07:44 pm

Graybeard: When I said, “Five years of an escalating disaster can be laid at the Democrats door,” I was using a term used by someone posting under this thread earlier about this being an escalating disaster that can be laid at Bush’s door. I was countering the argument, not agreeing with the description.

Since virtually from day one the Democrats have been giving aid and comfort to the enemy and making our task much harder, I don’t know for sure and neither do you, if Bush’ plan would have worked out as designed. Your side made each plan much harder by their support of the enemy.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on July 8, 2007 at 07:48 pm

Goon: Exactamundo! That is not Farsi, it’s Fonzi!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on July 8, 2007 at 07:50 pm
Avatar for graybeard

Graybeard you forgot the Propaganda machine of the MSM/left doing everything they could to hamstrung the soldiers and the president in running and executing this war.

The Democrats have given Bush everything he has asked for. Everything. How many “supplementals” have the Democrats denied?

As far as “hamstringing the president” - it is plain that the actions or lack-therof of Bush and his team have prevented this operation from the hope of achieving any sort of measurable success.

graybeard on July 9, 2007 at 03:50 am

Graybeard, they haven’t given him everything.  They haven’t given support to the war, but at every step tried to undermine it.  In fact, it was the Republicans who passed the war packages not the Democrats.  Had it not been for the Republicans in congress this year, the war would now be defunded and we would be going home.

This continued willingness on the part of the Democrats to undermine our war efforts has materially given aid and comfort to the enemy, regardless of how many times the Democrats try to deny it.  Similar picture to the press crediting the Viet Cong with a victory, when in fact it was such a complete massacre of the Viet Cong they never were a meaningful fighting force after their defeat…

You live in a complete fantasy world.

Carrick on July 9, 2007 at 06:45 am

So what are we to do about the 140,000 Turkish troupes massed on Iraq’s northern border, Kimo Sabe?

Which group of maniacs could we put in charge in Iraq that would not commit genocide? Which one is the Hitler that we could get rid of? It should be obvious to everyone by now that who ever is in charge in Iraq can only maintain order by killing people into fear and submission. You can not apply American thought and culture and arrive at a solution in Iraq.

The entire population of Iraq is not worth the life of one American soldier.

ews48 on July 9, 2007 at 10:08 am

greaybeard, the NYTs is still covering up and dismissing the obvious, just like they did during the 7 million Ukranians exterminated by the USSR in the 1930s.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on July 9, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Avatar for graybeard

You live in a complete fantasy world.

You’re just avoiding the obvious - blindly following Bush down the rabbit hole as the situation in Iraq spins ever more out of control.

IF there had been a plan for the post-invasion period and

IF sufficient troops had been committed from the outset and

IF competent administrators had been placed in Iraq and

IF more importance had been placed on securing known stockpiles of weapons and explosives as opposed to defending the Oil Ministry at all costs

...we may have had a chance. Bush blew it and you cheered him on every step of the way. Now we, and our grandkids, will have to suck it. That’s the reality, bub.

graybeard on July 9, 2007 at 03:05 pm

Sorry, graybeard, but these considerations are completely irrelevant.

What is relevant is a comparison of the consequences of staying in Iraq (in the current or some modified form) versus a precipitous withdrawal.

Put in those terms, it’s an easy and obvious answer.  Though you have to use correct data. 

Compare this lefttard reality-bereft version of events in Baqubah to the reality reported by people who were actually there, such as Michael Yon or even Michael Gordan of the New York TImes.

The reality is it is a tough slog, but we’re making progress. 

War is like that though.  We are fighting a committed enemy who is smart and capable of adapting to our tactics over time.  This type of warfare is very different that the Hollywood version where the original plan survives initial contact with the enemy.  The unfortunate fact is that this reality of war is lost on most Americans, and definitely most of the impatient media sort who report on this sort of event.

War is like that though.  There is no “there” beyond which progress can’t be made, and no plan that is immune to exploitation by the enemy.  Had we put in a different administrator and a larger force size, the enemy would have easily exploited that scenario, but we likely would have had much larger, Vietnam-like, casualties.

In the end, you don’t win a war with insurgents using force alone.  It takes a changing of the hearts and minds of those who support the insurgents in order to win.  I’m afraid it is only through time and through our sacrifice that this will happen, not through any theoretical list of preconditions for victory.

Carrick on July 9, 2007 at 05:01 pm
Avatar for 2LB

Aside from all genocide and all the other obvious reasons we should remain:

Yes, Let’s Run and Fight Terrorism on OUR Streets

Perhaps it is time to leave Iraq, considering the media and the liberal left feel we are not winning the war there and the accomplishments they desire have not come quickly enough.  Their disillusionment with the sacrifices of our military is all together transparent with Op/Ed pieces such as these.

Perhaps the better place to fight terrorism is here, on our own streets.  That way, there will not be so many “innocent victims” in Iraq and our military members won’t be crucified by a pacifistic media.

We certainly have the means to fight the 2,000 suicide bombers Iran claimed to dispatch to the U.S. a few weeks ago and those claimed by Hizbullah, to be waiting in the wings in South America to attack us. Our police departments can effectively handle the investigations of bombings of school buses, pizza parlors, movie theatres and other places where young people congregate.  They have been trained to handle terrorist incidents and the if we learned anything from Hurricane Katrina, our public agencies are ready to immediately respond and evacuate hospitals, schools and individuals in urban areas in the event of a terorist incident.

On the up side, we also now have over a million young men and women trained in terrorist tactics, such as used of IEDs used in roadside bombings, suicide bombs and roadside bombs, thankfully to their experience in Iraq.  When these situations occur, we will be likely to be able to apprehend the culprits, unless they hide within our population.  We survived 9/11, at least some of us did, and we are now prepared to take on the war here.

When the terrorists start bombing the churches and mosques because they preach a different religious idealology than what their own organizational covenants call for, we will have bomb experts available to conduct the investigations to see which terrorist organization was involved.  We will also have some pretty high tech equipment which may identify which of the hundreds of Iranians, Iraqis and other middle easterners who are currently smuggled in over our borders are terrorists--that is, if they have a history of involvement with a terrorist organization.

We have more than enough land in our national forests to build graveyards for the victims in our society, as well as more than enough money to pay over $50,000 a year to house each terrorist per year in our prisons.  We have tons of federal grants and funds available to appoint them a lawyer.

Fighting terrorism in America will boost our economy and raise the economy of our state and federal workers.  Lord knows, we have more than enough money in our federal coffers to hire thousands and thousands more individuals for terrorism interdiction.  It will boost the economy of those involved in the funeral trade. It will boost the economy of those involved in the legal trade, who will receive considerable federal funds to represent them.  We can build bigger and better prisons which will be equipped to handle the special needs of the Muslim terrorist, such as prayer rugs, special diets, with all the windows facing the east!

It will decrease the populations in our urban areas. When our inner cities are nuked with bombs, we can simply view the situation as an opportunity for urban development to rebuild and make them better.  When our roads are destroyed, we can always use the power of eminent domain to raze houses and build bigger and better ones.

If we chose to fight terrorism on our soil, rather than in the middle east, where the terrorists are currently going to fight “Jihad,” our citizens will have an opportunity to experience a “different culture” and open their minds to different religions and ways.

Those women who choose to embrace the terrorists’ ideology can wear Jihabs and Burkas and those who don’t can acquire a gun and learn to shoot in order to protect themselves and their families to maintain the freedoms we have known.

The use of energy will be greater increased due to the need of air conditioning in hot weather, because women will be covered during times of hot weather however perhaps this will be compensated during cooler climate trends of other seasons.

Perhaps the way to end this crisis once and for all, in the United States, is for our legislators to simply pass a resolution so all Americans will become Muslim--Wahabi Muslim to be specific--and in doing so, we won’t risk having to fight for our survival or for the survival of other countries.

Yes, let’s get out of Iraq now --- and Afghanistan ---and save a lot of money.  Let’s simply give into terrorism.

2LB on July 15, 2007 at 01:39 pm

Perhaps it is time to leave Iraq, considering the media and the liberal left feel we are not winning the war there and the accomplishments they desire have not come quickly enough.  Their disillusionment with the sacrifices of our military is all together transparent with Op/Ed pieces such as these.

Perhaps the better place to fight terrorism is here, on our own streets.  That way, there will not be so many “innocent victims” in Iraq and our military members won’t be crucified by a pacifistic media.

All the more reason to finish what we started.


Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

goon on July 15, 2007 at 01:43 pm

graybeard is busy spreading his doom and gloom. He’s the type of person who tells people that they’re losers and they’ll never win. He’s the opposite of an inspirational speaker.

likwidshoe on July 15, 2007 at 01:49 pm

2LB: Amen, brother!


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on July 15, 2007 at 01:54 pm
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