Say Anything Blog

That’s fairly low, but perhaps unsurprising given how dirty politics seems to have gotten (or perhaps always was).

What really strikes me is how desperate such an attack seems, especially in light of the fact that persons born abroad-in a US territory or not-are natural born citizens if at least one parent is a US Citizen. In such a case the parent applies for a “Consular Report of Birth Abroad” to establish US citizenship and obtain a passport for the child. The certificate is pretty, real colorful.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen.  You are attacking a newspaper for a story it has not run yet.  This is idiotic.  If they don’t run the story you look like morons.

If you are born on an American base you are natural born.  I would be shocked if the NYT runs this.

Prepare to look really dumb.

I’m prepared for that every day, Lestat. I hope the Times is equally sanguine at the prospect.

If he’s not a natural born citizen does that mean he can be retired if he attempts to return to Earth, I mean, America?

...for great justice

Yeah, running with that story is just what the NYT needs to get their credibility back. I realize it’s only a blurb on Drudge, but I really hope the Times goes with it. Page 1, above the fold.

Some inconvenient truth for Lestat (post updated with link):

Shocked yet, cupcake?

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

By the way Lestat: the times HAS run the story. Link below.
The Times Looking Really Stupid.

You stole my thunder by about 60 seconds, Rob. Curse you and the Blog you rode in on!

Lestat, you there buddy?

Paging Lestat, please come and apologize for calling me a moron....

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Hey, I’m an A-list blogger.  I don’t miss much.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

After all, we’d have reached a pretty dark day in America when a veteran who served his country as McCain did and was born on a US military base to two American citizens one of whom later became a Navy Admiral (and was himself the son of a Navy Admiral) isn’t considered an American.

I think it’s a question worth asking, not pushing.

This does bring an interesting question to mind though.  What about all the children of illegal immigrants who were born here or brought here when they were young but then serve in the military.  Are they Americans?

How about the immigrants who come that are in their teens and join the military and serve?  Are they Americans in your eyes?

Just curious.

Originalists need to channel the dead for a definitive answer.

Hannitized:

A child born in America to two illegal immigrant parents is legally a natural born citizen of the US.

A child brought here when they are very young is not a citizen unless they apply for citizenship, in which case they are a naturalized citizen (not a natural born citizen).

An immigrant who comes here and later serves in the military isn’t a citizen unless they explicitly apply for citizenship, in which case they become a naturalized citizen (not a natural born citizen).

Seth,

Thanks for that info.  But my question was if they are considered Americans.  I know the citizenship rules and qualifications.  My question is about who should be considered an American. 

You can be an American and not be a citizen, no?

No, you can’t. By definition.

The question is a constitutional can of worms.
Some states Secretary of State or Director of Elections could conceivably refuse to put Mac’s name on the ballot by their interpretation.
You have the Electoral College,
the president of the Senate , the Archivist of the United States and who knows how many others and arcane rules are involved.

Chuck Berry

Workin in the fillin station - too many tasks.
Wipe the windows - check the tires - check the oil - dollar gas!
Too much monkey business. too much monkey business.
Dont want your botheration, get away, leave me!

Too much monkey business for me!!

I can’t leave it at that. Hannitized is engaging in sophistry here by asking “who should be considered Americans.” Living and working in a country-any country-does not impart you citizenship. Citizenship is an implied oath of feality and belonging to a nation and culture that is usually imparted by birth, sometimes (and probably more meaningfully) by deliberate choice and action. This is BY DEFINITION. There are legal ramifications to citizenship, and to changing citizenship.

People who aren’t citizens but merely work and live in a country are aliens/immigrants, whether legal or illegal Although there are different legal ramifiacations to which status the alien enjoys, they are still at the end of the day not a citizen. Again, this is BY DEFINITION.

These are nigh-on universally recognized concepts the world over, and only people with a contra-majoritarian agenda even attempt to argue otherwise.

Or perhaps hannitized means to imply that people can simply “feel” American. As laudable as that is, until they make a deliberate choice to become an American-which is a set and well defined process, accessible to all law-abiding aliens-they are not Americans. It’s fine to feel a thing, but it does not make it so. Hypothetically speaking, on any given day I could feel very Mongolian, but the Mongols may have some qualms about allowing me to make such a claim without a legally binding oath of fealty. My feelings wouldn’t do anything to change the very real fact of my avctual American citizenship.

All of the above statements aren’t conjectures on what should be, but are observations about how things are and have been since time immemorial. Which is why I say it is sophistry (at best) to even hint that someone who doesn’t enjoy legal status as member of a nation can be a member of that nation. By definition, they can’t be.

WOOF: you are correct, some states could conceivably refuse to put him on the ballot. If it did happen, you and I both know it would likely be a politically driven thing, and a brand new low. The reality is that the Supreme court is highly likely to uphold McCain’s claim to natural citizenship, and any such challenge from the states would only have the net effect of interfering with a presidential election at a time when divisions have been exceptionally sharp and issues exceptionally contentious. This would lead to very bad results for America.

Which is why I tend to think even the most partisan of the Secretaries of State or Directors of Elections would let cooler heads prevail. I hope so anyway.

Unfortunately, this question isn’t exactly a matter of settled law.

The U.S. Constitution’s requirements that presidents must meet include that he/she be a “natural born citizen.”

Sen. McCain is unquestionably a U.S. citizen since birth, under the provisions of the Immigration & Nationality Act (INA).  He probably qualifies more than one way in that regard.

It’s not a matter of settled constitutional law that a U.S. citizen from birth is the same as a “natural born citizen.”

For some reason, the Federal Election Commission has let Sen. McCain file, so I’m reluctant to second guess them.  However, this could conceivably go to the U.S. Supreme Court to settle.

Incidentally, this question was raised weeks ago in various web logs; it’s not much of surprise that it took the NYT this long to catch up with the “amateurs.”

Lastly, being born on a U.S. base doesn’t make on a U.S. citizen, although a lot of people seem to think it does.  It matters where one is born, whether in the U.S. or not, or it matters who one’s parents are.

No wonder he is soft on immigration, he is a foreigner, an illegal alien. That explains a lot!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

It just show how desperate Barrack/Clinton are.
I thought that McCain gets creamed by the Dems, if that is true why is all this crap coming out? HUM…

check out Goon’s World

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

If McCain should win the General Election the Democrats will be in court before you can say “Al Gore.”

I’ve quoted you and linked to you here:  http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2008/02/re-new-york-times-apparently-to-run.html