Say Anything Blog

The Bill of Privileges

At nearly all levels of government in the United States, there now exists a clear and open contempt for the Constitution, most especially the Bill of Rights which are being viewed as the Bill Of Privileges, which can be modified or revoked in an arbitray and capricious manner absent the Constitutionally mandated Amendment process.

All of the Bill of Rights, as I understand them, especially at the time they were written, were inviolable outside the Amendment Process. That is no longer true, as by Legislative or Judicial fiat any or all of them can be modified without the consent of the governed.

I don’t recall the language in the Bill of Rights that permits the Supreme Court or Congress to make any judgments or pass any laws that alter or amend these rights. Although, I’ll bet a few self-made Constitutional experts here will disagree.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Umm… I guarantee you that all those people stopped were subway riders. They had a constitutional right not to take the subway. There are search stations set up during rush hour inside every major transit terminal, and you can refuse the search if you want to (you’ll just have to walk down the street to a terminal where there’s no search station).

Dishonest statistics.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Almost 90 percent of those stopped were innocent.

So the cops stopped 86,000 people from carrying something dangerous into the subway last year? That sounds pretty fricken good to me (I ride everyday).

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Rob,

If this program has been running for over a year, it has been challenged in court.  Since it’s still running, they seem to have passed the test of “reasonable” before one or more courts.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

So the cops stopped 86,000 people from carrying something dangerous into the subway last year? That sounds pretty fricken good to me (I ride everyday).

If this truly was an opt-in search, as in you must consent to a search to ride the subway, then I have less of a problem (being forced to pay tax dollars for a public transportation system I can’t ride unless I get groped by a cop is a different matter), but I don’t think you’ve substantiated that all these searches are taking place at subway stations.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t, but I don’t think cops should get to frisk you just because.

If this program has been running for over a year, it has been challenged in court.  Since it’s still running, they seem to have passed the test of “reasonable” before one or more courts.

You suppose that all judges are “reasonable” appliers of the law.  Which is a rather suspect supposition given some of the travesties the American judicial system is responsible for.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

forced to pay tax dollars for a public transportation system I can’t ride unless I get groped by a cop is a different matter

It’s an opt-in search if you want to ride… though technically you can still ride if you walk a couple of stations down where there are no cops. The MTA is a private corp. chartered by the city, we pay fares (not income tax) to ride.

I don’t think you’ve substantiated that all these searches are taking place at subway stations.

I don’t need to do that to point out that the statistics are dishonest. The article you quoted makes it seem like there is a city-wide initiative by cops to search people illegally. (That is all I needed to dispute.) And there is no such initiative. So many people get searched per year precisely because there is an initiative to set up search stations at major transit hubs which have millions of people going through them daily.

As an aside, NY cops are probably the most respectful and legally risk-averse (as in they don’t want to get sued) police officers I have ever met.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Rob,

I find the odds of all judges being reasonable in their reading of the law to be almost as low as the NY-ACLU and Davinski giving us all the pertinent data on such an article.

Note also that violent crime per 100,000 is down almost 6 percent in NYC from 2005 to 2006.  Purely coincidental, I’m sure.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

The Constitution says many things. So, who we call when what the Constitution says doesn’t happen and how soon will things be corrected?

The current government is obviously not going to uphold the Constitution. We can say that the Constitution says until we run out of breath or we can vote the people who violate the Constitution out of office.

Or we can do what Supreme Court Justice Scalia says to do and “get over it”.

You can’t have it both ways. Either you have increased security (and as a result increased stop and search)or you don’t.

86000 people were not innocent, 240 people per day were apprehended as a result of these searches. What the heck is wrong with that? It took 19 men to perpetrate 9/11 and four men for 7/7.

Complacency anyone?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Neiman:  For good or ill, right or wrong, the Supreme Court of the United States is the final arbiter of what the Constitution and all of it’s amendments mean. That issue was settled under the Marshall court almost before the ink had dried on the Constitution.

If that were not so, the SCOTUS would not now be deliberating the DC gun law, or more accurately, there would be no DC Gun Law.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

86000 people were not innocent, 240 people per day were apprehended as a result of these searches.

If that’s the criteria, then randomly search all young adults. There is a good chance that they have weed on them.

Ready for the police state? Your argument applies in favor of it.

Excuse me? What about the terrorist threat? Do you want your cake and eat it too?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Illegal search and seizure is illegal. Opt-out search and seizure on a mode of mass transportation is legal.

Look, no one is arguing that if NY police started to randomly search people in the streets it would be against the 4th Amendment. I’m pointing out here that contrary to the statistics above, this doesn’t happen. The statistics make it look like this happens by neglecting to mention the opt-out subway search initiative.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

If young adults are stupid enough to walk around NY carrying where it can be found, then they deserve to get nicked.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Excuse me? What about the terrorist threat?

The threat where we can’t even name the enemy?

Do you want your cake and eat it too?

Don’t talk to me like that. I live in a country where the government wants to search American citizens for no cause, yet the Southern border is wide open.

Have my cake? You have to turn the oven on first.

We’ve had (essentially) involuntary s&s over here for years. You can refuse, but it’s likely then that you’ll be taken to a police station to be searched. This policy was introduced by Margaret Thatcher.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

No cause? I’m sure the cops doing the searching would dispute that. They’ll be searching those who appear shifty or suspicious. They are trained to look for people who act as if they have something to hide. Of course some innocent people will get caught out, but what the hey - a five minute delay for a feeling of greater security - what’s wrong with that?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

The police need to be checked so they aren’t abusing their power.  The organization should be anti-TERRORISM , not some excuse to target a shady teenager who might have marijuana.

Terrorism is definitely a MAJOR concern in NYC.  Sometimes we have to give up our rights to preserve freedom--to possibly even save lives.

But this “frisking” power is my sacred 4th amendment, and they better be doing it right.

Can I look in your bag?

Everyone seems to like the idea of an added police presence, particularly to fight terrorism on subway platforms, but then when you mention the price tag—$151 million – then people aren’t so sure.

TORCH team

$151 million – then people aren’t so sure.

I take the subway everyday. I’m sure. If no where else, that’s where I want my tax money going.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I remember a thread here at SAB, a few months back, about NY cops leaving bags on the subway and arresting anyone who picked them up. That I found irresponsible, but stop and search - I have no problem with that.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight - That I found irresponsible, but stop and search - I have no problem with that.

You’re not an American.

Stop and search, “your papers please”, and the like are an anathema to true Americans. Our ancestors fled from that kind of bullshit.

As for NYC stopping and searching for no reason - perhaps they first need to stop being a “sanctuary city”. First things first, eh?

Turn the oven if there’s really a bird to be cooked. As it is right now, the government is just denying the freedom of people who are getting fucked by the very government who is claiming to protect them. There’s a war on? Then close the God damn border and get rid of the “sanctuary city” bullshit.

Frisk searches don’t even go into their pockets, you idiots. It’s for officer safety. Cops don’t need any reason at all to pat you down for weapons… outer search only.

So take a deep breath. No one’s rights are violated.

Okay, let’s briefly clarify some points.

A “stop and frisk” is known as a “Terry” search, based on the Supreme Court case Terry vs. Ohio.

It was determined in that case that an officer, under reasonable circumstances, has the right to frisk a subject. For instnace - a man standing outside a convenience store in June wearing a top coat. Is it reasonable for the officer to be suspicious? The court said, yes, it is. THAT would be a justifiable search under the law. Which is basically what happened in the Terry case.

In the New York cases recently presented - a lot of those cases were subway searches. By riding a mass transit you give automatic permission to be frisked. Don’t want to be frisked? Find another way to work. It’s no different than what the airlines do.

Now....I have to agree with Liquidshoe to some extent....just walking down the street does NOT automatically subject you to a physical search by a police officer. AND I have a problem with the show me your papers” mentality. We don’t live in the USSR. And I hope we never do.

Hope this cleared up some points.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed